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Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#51 Posted : Saturday, July 1, 2017 12:44:03 AM(UTC)
Turn 10 already said they will penalize griefing players with additional lap time etc. , which means they are already able to detect which players are griefing, and who are the "clean" racers.

We need a matchmaking system that puts in like minded players into the same lobbies (clean racers together with clean racers, destructive drivers together with destructive drivers), and some kind of indication for what kind of driver we are dealing with. Maybe display the name in different colors, ranging from Red (absolute madman) to Green (very clean driver) or something similar.

Edited by user Saturday, July 1, 2017 12:44:57 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#52 Posted : Saturday, July 1, 2017 4:45:02 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: tonyandjack Go to Quoted Post
Turn 10 already said they will penalize griefing players with additional lap time etc. , which means they are already able to detect which players are griefing, and who are the "clean" racers.

We need a matchmaking system that puts in like minded players into the same lobbies (clean racers together with clean racers, destructive drivers together with destructive drivers), and some kind of indication for what kind of driver we are dealing with. Maybe display the name in different colors, ranging from Red (absolute madman) to Green (very clean driver) or something similar.


Right now it's a waiting game. T10 has mentioned that the new Adjudication System and the revamped Leagues will work together to make sure clean racers stay separate from deliberate cutters and wreckers. Until the actual lobbies and leagues launch, we have no idea what that means or how effective it will be.

We can only hope that T10 got it right. And considering the number of variables in that equation, I highly doubt it will be anything significantly better than what we have so far.

Edited by user Saturday, July 1, 2017 4:45:34 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#53 Posted : Saturday, July 1, 2017 5:03:25 PM(UTC)
What i want to know is, how will Forza's Adjudication system determine who is a victim of a crasher. For example, i like to play cleanly, as my Twitch videos will show. But in a multiplayer race, suppose a crasher and I are approaching a fast corner and crasher is on the outside of me and he turns in too soon and hits me, forcing me off the inside corner, essentially giving me what the system would theoretically deem as cutting the corner? And would the system flag me instead of the alleged crasher because maybe it saw just my projected trajectory going straight and theoretically trying to send the outside guy off?

And suppose, during a long endurance race, I accidentally break late (highway hypnosis or whatever) and rear-end the car in front of me at the corner?

But these are all theoretical concerns, as i never play online because of crashers and cheaters (i mean, come on, how is that leaderboard time 20 seconds quicker than the track record in a street car?! Lol!).
Rank: R-Class Racing License
#54 Posted : Saturday, July 1, 2017 6:08:46 PM(UTC)
If there are indeed penalties there will be times when you may get flagged when you are trying to be clean in a case like you describe. It's just gonna be something we have to live with but I think it would prevent a lot of mayhem in the end. Everyone cuts by mistake sometimes, trying to get around someone, avoid an accident etc... and you may be flagged for that but it should keep wreckers from just knocking cars all over the track and ruining your race even worse. The cutting in the ghost league is just absurd and this will prevent that as well. Perhaps the ghost league should not say whoever gets there first in the Forza 7, it gives people the wrong idea. I hope to spend more time out of ghost racing with a good penalty system.

Edited by user Saturday, July 1, 2017 6:12:38 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#55 Posted : Saturday, July 1, 2017 7:38:04 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: leetorts Go to Quoted Post
If there are indeed penalties there will be times when you may get flagged when you are trying to be clean in a case like you describe. It's just gonna be something we have to live with but I think it would prevent a lot of mayhem in the end. Everyone cuts by mistake sometimes, trying to get around someone, avoid an accident etc... and you may be flagged for that but it should keep wreckers from just knocking cars all over the track and ruining your race even worse. The cutting in the ghost league is just absurd and this will prevent that as well. Perhaps the ghost league should not say whoever gets there first in the Forza 7, it gives people the wrong idea. I hope to spend more time out of ghost racing with a good penalty system.


Why should I be penalised for racing clean?
If this is the way it's implemented, I probably won't buy it.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
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#56 Posted : Saturday, July 1, 2017 9:09:38 PM(UTC)
Its not going to be 100% perfect, expecting that is ludicrous. Things happen during a race, you may be clean but cut over a white line or corner by mistake. This might incur a penalty even though you are trying your best to be clean. You may bump someone and get a penalty. Real race car drivers incur penalties all the time. It's part of racing and needs to be part of Forza. Is a wreck fest the better solution with rampant cutting and wrecking? I don't think so. We will all be in the same boat. This is why they never wanted penalties, to avoid the moaning that will occur. Since we don't know if or how this will be implemented. I'm just guessing, but I know ending up with a penalty due to race mishaps is better than having no penalties at all. It will force us all to try and drive better. Hoppers for me is not a race it's surviving bad drivers, constant first corner mayhem, wreckers and corner cutters.

Edited by user Saturday, July 1, 2017 9:32:57 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#57 Posted : Sunday, July 2, 2017 12:14:18 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Dadiodude Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CanineWord97990 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dadiodude Go to Quoted Post
You'll not find one solution to two separate problems.

Problem 1.
Cheater who wants to win and does so by exceeding track limits.
Time penalties are an ideal solution.

Problem 2.
The demolition derby brigade.
Accumulated DNFs and instances of contact leading to timed suspension of MP access would do nicely.

Overriding problem is that T10 don't want to force players to play one way or another and believe that all types of play should be possible.

The solution to this would be an option in SP to toggle "racing rules applied" and a separate lobby in each class.

This in itself would filter players quite well and a wrecker in a lobby running rules would likely get kicked PDQ.


Then why don't T10 go down the CS:GO route with penalties, where unsporting behavior(crashing, driving the wrong way or leaving a race when a person isn't winning) results in them not being able to join any multiplayer races for x amount of minutes depending upon how often they crashed people or how long they drove the wrong way with a set amount of minutes for rage quits. That would actually work well as a deterrent for these people, and would help with the more serious Esports arena that they want Forza to enter.


Because T10 are trying to make a game for everyone. This includes the knuckleheads. The only problem with this is that knuckleheads and "normal" people end up in the same race.

I like to race as properly as I can and I don't even take advantage of these so called clean cuts. That's my choice. Knuckleheads get their kicks from causing pile ups or from preventing people from completing a lap. At then end of the day folks can play how they like, it's their game, but we just need a little segregation. In this topic all roads lead to Rome, we're all after the same thing. Racers sharing a lobby with racers and people that like to create mayhem in a lobby with others that like to create mayhem. How this is achieved doesn't really matter. It doesn't need CPLs, just a lobby for each preference.

Simple solution for that, have a casual option for online play as well as a competitive option(as in CS:GO) where in causal the penalty system is scaled back in such a way that the numpties will be able to enjoy themsevles together as well as people who don't want to race seriously, then competitive mode can have the full penalty system(maybe even flags, damage and tyre wear with longer races) but it means people have to drive clean and can't just crash the whole lobby then quit or rage quit due to not being in front after turn 1 of the start whereby if they do quit because of that they cannot rejoin the competitive side again for x amount of minutes but can join the crashers and griefers, plus it would open up options for giving people more things to aim for i.e. having driver rankings for finishing races in competitive mode, with extra rankings or XP for position).
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#58 Posted : Sunday, July 2, 2017 12:38:12 PM(UTC)
That's probably my number one complaint about online racing, the fact that people rage quit during the first lap if they aren't in a good position near the front. I decided to play a couple rounds of GT endurance last night and each game it seemed like all the drivers behind me would quit leaving about half to two thirds of the original starting grid. If you quit like that there should be a cool down before you can enter another race. This is even in a 10 to 12 lap race where you have time to catch up.

-k
Rank: On the Podium
#59 Posted : Sunday, July 2, 2017 2:00:57 PM(UTC)
I think having longer races in the Hoppers would help, along with a cooldown of a few minutes if you leave early.

Right now the average Hopper race is 6 minutes, not enough to spend time lining up multiple passes in a safe and strategic manner. If the average Hopper's race time was increased to 10 minutes you would see things calm down after the first 2 laps and the field spreads out, while still having the opportunity to make up places.

Right now your race is ruined if you get punted off-track on Lap 1 as you don't have enough time to catch up to the lead pack unless you're at a significantly higher skill level than the rest of the room.

Even if Turn 10 have done "nothing" to help clean up the Hoppers in Forza Motorsport 7, upping the Lap count in all Hoppers from 3 to 5 would help out a lot. It's not a big job either, new Hoppers were implemented in Forza Motorsport 6 within a day of them being requested on the forum* so changing the Lap counts shouldn't be a big deal either.


* I was the one that pitched for 1970s Grand Prix and it went live within 24 hours.

Edited by user Sunday, July 2, 2017 2:01:48 PM(UTC)  | Reason: .


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#60 Posted : Sunday, July 2, 2017 2:24:15 PM(UTC)
The only flaw I can see with the suggestion of casual hoppers so griefers and crashers can all play together, is that griefers and crashers DON'T want to play with the like minded.
They get their kicks disrupting and antagonizing the serious racers. A hopper full of smashers & crashers would offer no thrill to them because smashing & crashing would be the norm, offering them all no proper "race" to sabotage.
No, their preferred hunting ground is the serious racing hoppers.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#61 Posted : Sunday, July 2, 2017 11:24:08 PM(UTC)
No they don't, you're quite correct. But, a wrecker in a "race" lobby is far more likely to be kicked PDQ.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#62 Posted : Monday, July 3, 2017 2:54:14 AM(UTC)
I really hope that will be the case from FM7 onwards.
Rank: On the Podium
#63 Posted : Monday, July 3, 2017 3:26:04 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Dadiodude Go to Quoted Post
But, a wrecker in a "race" lobby is far more likely to be kicked PDQ.

Only if kick-voting is {a} visible and {b} effective.

It was neither in Forza Motorsport 6 which meant a griefer could stay in a lobby for dozens of races without fear of getting pushed out.

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#64 Posted : Monday, July 3, 2017 6:34:12 AM(UTC)
It's fair to assume that players looking to join a race lobby as opposed to a general "free for all" lobby would be either experienced or know their way around the UI. I'm sure the vote to kick would get some much needed use :)

The option is there already but because half the grid don't care or themselves participate in wrecking or cutting it's relatively redundant. I'm sure that if lobby's were more heavily populated by racers then we'd already be seeing the kick used a lot more than it is.
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#65 Posted : Monday, July 3, 2017 6:48:04 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Dadiodude Go to Quoted Post

The option is there already but because half the grid don't care or themselves participate in wrecking or cutting it's relatively redundant. I'm sure that if lobby's were more heavily populated by racers then we'd already be seeing the kick used a lot more than it is.


I raced in Pinnacle League for all of my time in Forza Motorsport 6; that's as "racer lobby" as you're going to get.

Even in there, the only time anyone got kick-voted was when JONK (Turn 10) was racing and we asked him to boot wreckers.

The current system is a failure as it is not easily accessible, has no visual way of showing you when somebody has been voted on and requires too many votes for a kick to take place.

I proposed the following, which I think is fair:

  • Add UI icon in lobbies to show if a user has received a "Vote to Kick".
  • Kick a user if they have received at least 5 "Kick Votes" in a room with 16 or fewer players, or 8 votes if in a room with 17-24 players.

Edited by user Monday, July 3, 2017 6:55:57 AM(UTC)  | Reason: .


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#66 Posted : Monday, July 3, 2017 7:01:08 AM(UTC)
I think that if they add
-a system that counts player hits on other players (I think they already have something, because it counts for stats), and
-a calculation if this was no accident (example: speed of car initiated crash, if he was braking as hard as should be (in relation to track stats or other players)) and
-the existng league system able to promote AND demote based on this system, in a matter of days things would clear up a lot.


BUT
its a vast game with vast options aiming to satisfy a vast amount of players.
for one to expect that such a big thing will be absolutely tailored 100% to his liking, without him having to lift a finger, when there are millions of people playing the same game with him,
well, in my opinion thats pure stupidity!

and all you folks complaining so much about this, while you are supposedly NOT the rookies, but the other people are, you DO know there are dedicated teams of players organizing and running dedicated championships all the time, right?
so, if you care so much for your perfect race never to be tampered by anything, be it a kid or a rookie player, why not go register at tora or at the other like-tora forums/chamiopnships?

Edited by user Monday, July 3, 2017 7:07:18 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#67 Posted : Monday, July 3, 2017 7:06:22 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PJTierney Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dadiodude Go to Quoted Post

The option is there already but because half the grid don't care or themselves participate in wrecking or cutting it's relatively redundant. I'm sure that if lobby's were more heavily populated by racers then we'd already be seeing the kick used a lot more than it is.


I raced in Pinnacle League for all of my time in Forza Motorsport 6; that's as "racer lobby" as you're going to get.

Even in there, the only time anyone got kick-voted was when JONK (Turn 10) was racing and we asked him to boot wreckers.

The current system is a failure as it is not easily accessible, has no visual way of showing you when somebody has been voted on and requires too many votes for a kick to take place.

I proposed the following, which I think is fair:

  • Add UI icon in lobbies to show if a user has received a "Vote to Kick".
  • Kick a user if they have received at least 5 "Kick Votes" in a room with 16 or fewer players, or 8 votes if in a room with 17-24 players.


Also, make the Vote To Kick button visible at all times. Right now if you come back to a lobby from a race and immediately click on a miscreant's gamertag (which is the mostly likely time anyone would check), there's no Vote To Kick option listed. You have to wait until the track voting and intermission and do it then, when the option does appear. I've spoke to a lot of people who have looked for Vote To Kick and concluded that there simply isn't one, purely because they looked when the option isn't visible.
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#68 Posted : Monday, July 3, 2017 7:07:07 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Petran Go to Quoted Post

so, if you care so much for your perfect race never to be tampered by anything, be it a kid or a rookie player, why not go register at tora or at the other like-tora forums/chamiopnships?

Registration requires time, commitment and often limits you to specific cars and tracks.

While there is certainly a place for that many players also like to just hop on the couch, go into a random race and have some fun. Having to show up at Sunday at 20.00 in a McLaren 12C GT3 is not so spontaneous.

Edited by user Monday, July 3, 2017 7:08:41 AM(UTC)  | Reason: .


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#69 Posted : Monday, July 3, 2017 7:17:14 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PJTierney Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Petran Go to Quoted Post

so, if you care so much for your perfect race never to be tampered by anything, be it a kid or a rookie player, why not go register at tora or at the other like-tora forums/chamiopnships?

Registration requires time, commitment and often limits you to specific cars and tracks.

While there is certainly a place for that many players also like to just hop on the couch, go into a random race and have some fun. Having to show up at Sunday at 20.00 in a McLaren 12C GT3 is not so spontaneous.


Registration to a forum to complain about a thing that is easy solvable on your end, its a thing that takes more time than registration for championship, and gives back way less pleasure, unless you are broken as a character though.. :)
on your edit: Yes, scheduling is a part that goes package wth what you'd call "serious racing". see iracing.

Edited by user Monday, July 3, 2017 7:17:59 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#70 Posted : Monday, July 3, 2017 7:17:43 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Petran Go to Quoted Post

BUT
its a vast game with vast options aiming to satisfy a vast amount of players.
for one to expect that such a big thing will be absolutely tailored 100% to his liking, without him having to lift a finger, when there are millions of people playing the same game with him,
well, in my opinion thats pure stupidity!


No one is expecting the entire game to be tailored to good racers. Just a tiny bit of it would be nice though. In FM6 there are about 30 hoppers, many of which have multiple lobbies active at any one time. Every single one of them is tailored to the morons who just want to crash into each other.

It's hardly "stupid" for players who like to race to be able to do so in a racing game, with "motorsport" in the title. Or maybe it is, at this stage. Despite Turn10's excitement for Esports, they don't seem to want to do anything to improve the experience of exactly the type of players that are interested in Forza as an Esport.

Quote:
and all you folks complaining so much about this, while you are supposedly NOT the rookies, but the other people are, you DO know there are dedicated teams of players organizing and running dedicated championships all the time, right?
so, if you care so much for your perfect race never to be tampered by anything, be it a kid or a rookie player, why not go register at tora or at the other like-tora forums/chamiopnships?

We do. And that gets us about 2 hours good racing per week, on a good week, assuming that we are available during any of their fixed time slots. We maybe manage another hour here and there where there are enough good players on at the same time to make a private lobby viable.

Otherwise we're left in a constant search of the least-unbearable public hoppers.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#71 Posted : Monday, July 3, 2017 7:22:51 AM(UTC)
<<Otherwise we're left in a constant search of the least-unbearable public hoppers.>>

I like your comment. :)
in such championships as tora or equivalent, have you not met enough forza players that like to race as clean as you?
I mean, you hop online, you check your friendlist, your great forza pals are playing online, chances are its not a wreckfest, you press "join game" and you enter that public lobby.
this doesn't work for you, for when there are no championships running?

for me it makes more sense to ask turn10 to integrate tools that will help those organizations like tora do their stuff,
and not ask them to ...penaltize new players and young kids (because they will "pay the bill" along with the stupid griefers)

Edited by user Monday, July 3, 2017 7:28:29 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#72 Posted : Monday, July 3, 2017 7:35:32 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Petran Go to Quoted Post


Registration to a forum to complain about a thing that is easy solvable on your end, its a thing that takes more time than registration for championship, and gives back way less pleasure, unless you are broken as a character though.. :)
on your edit: Yes, scheduling is a part that goes package wth what you'd call "serious racing". see iracing.


I've competed in over 300 organised races, I know how that side of the community works.
I also know that that is not something I want to do right now; I "retired" from that style of play a long time ago as I'm older and have less time on my hands.

The solution to a negative matchmaked Multiplayer environment should not be "don't bother playing there, go here instead".

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#73 Posted : Monday, July 3, 2017 7:55:33 AM(UTC)
if you dont want to EVER search for a very clean public lobby, go add a bunch of great forza players to your friend list. When you want to play, open friendlist, see who's playing, join their game.
that should keep you covered most of the time, no?

Edited by user Monday, July 3, 2017 7:56:29 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: On the Podium
#74 Posted : Monday, July 3, 2017 8:05:44 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Petran Go to Quoted Post
if you dont want to EVER search for a very clean public lobby, go add a bunch of great forza players to your friend list. When you want to play, open friendlist, see who's playing, join their game.
that should keep you covered most of the time, no?


That relies on them being {a} online, {b} playing Forza, {c} in a Public Hopper and {d} racing a class of car you're interested in using.
It's all well and good, but part of the enjoyment of playing in Hoppers (for me) is that constant stream of new opponents in full rooms.

Again, all of that relies on the player doing extra work to make Hoppers "work" for them. While us more dedicated players may do that, it doesn't help the majority of people who race online without doing all that set-up. Hoppers should be clean for everyone, not just those who need to do workarounds to make them clean. I can get that experience in Gran Turismo Sport already, so hopefully you can understand why I want something similar in Forza Motorsport 7.

If you don't see the point I'm trying to make then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Besides, this is all stuff we've been talking about for years now; it's in Turn 10's hands now as we're only repeating ourselves.

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#75 Posted : Monday, July 3, 2017 8:06:07 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Petran Go to Quoted Post
<<Otherwise we're left in a constant search of the least-unbearable public hoppers.>>

I like your comment. :)
in such championships as tora or equivalent, have you not met enough forza players that like to race as clean as you?
I mean, you hop online, you check your friendlist, your great forza pals are playing online, chances are its not a wreckfest, you press "join game" and you enter that public lobby.
this doesn't work for you, for when there are no championships running?


That works very occasionally, but it's harder than it seems.

Here's what happens when you set out to run a private lobby with no notice:
You spend 5 minutes sending out invites, then wait 20-30 minutes to see how many people will show up (which is boring as hell for the first guys who join). A bunch of players gradually join, maybe there are even some who can't get in because the lobby is full, and after discussing what you're going to do for another 5 minutes, during which a couple of players will drop out because they don't fancy the format you're running, you start racing. You have a fantastic first race, it's awesome, exactly as good as Forza can be and should be. But after each race a couple more guys will drop out because we're all in different timezones and people have other stuff to do, and over the course of 3 or 4 races you're down to just a few players and barely a viable lobby. There may well have been another 10 or 20 guys come online in that time who might have been interested in joining, but as they don't know you were running a private lobby they didn't join. Pretty quickly the lobby peters out.

It sounds so easy, but it's just not. If it were, no one would be asking for better hoppers, or CPLs, or better leagues. We'd all be having too much fun in private lobbies.

Quote:

for me it makes more sense to ask turn10 to integrate tools that will help those organizations like tora do their stuff,
and not ask them to ...penaltize new players and young kids (because they will "pay the bill" along with the stupid griefers)


Who is asking anyone to penalize new players? I think new players should be able to play the game just as they do now. I just don't think the entire game needs to be catered to new players.

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