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Rank: Driver's License
#2326 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2018 2:21:11 PM(UTC)
I so much wanted to upgrade from my Thrustmaster TX to a Fanatec! Having seen all the grief from Fanatec users with the recent changes, not a chance. Just another steering wheel.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#2327 Posted : Thursday, July 18, 2019 9:53:22 AM(UTC)
Hi guys,
Apologies if I post this in the wrong topic, and that I haven't read all 94 pages of replies.
I recently bought a Logitech G920 Wheel with the Gear Shifter. Also got the GT Omega Classic Stand with it, all for £300, which is a substantial investment for someone who has never played a Sim-like game before. My previous racing experience is NFS and Forza Horizon.
Anyways, I have tweeked the settings a lot lately, and got to a reasonable setting, where I copied a Youtuber's settings from the Feb 2019 update. Most of the time, 9 out of 10 corners, everything is fine, the cars handle smoothly, as they should. But every once in a while, I feel the wheel getting harder and harder to turn, feel like it wants to turn itself, and then all of a sudden, it breaks loose, and turns god knows why. After I crash and rewind, it does not happen again in the same corner. It can be a hairpin, a fast corner, anything. Same with the cars. I had the same experience with the Porsche 918 Spyder and the F-150 Raptor. It is really annoying because I would really enjoy this game otherwise, but this 'issue' gets on my nerves rather quickly, as I do not want to rewind the game, as that makes it that much easier.
Can you please suggest what might be the issue?


Rank: S-Class Racing License
#2328 Posted : Thursday, July 18, 2019 11:39:53 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Papparonie Go to Quoted Post
Hi guys,
Apologies if I post this in the wrong topic, and that I haven't read all 94 pages of replies.
I recently bought a Logitech G920 Wheel with the Gear Shifter. Also got the GT Omega Classic Stand with it, all for £300, which is a substantial investment for someone who has never played a Sim-like game before. My previous racing experience is NFS and Forza Horizon.
Anyways, I have tweeked the settings a lot lately, and got to a reasonable setting, where I copied a Youtuber's settings from the Feb 2019 update. Most of the time, 9 out of 10 corners, everything is fine, the cars handle smoothly, as they should. But every once in a while, I feel the wheel getting harder and harder to turn, feel like it wants to turn itself, and then all of a sudden, it breaks loose, and turns god knows why. After I crash and rewind, it does not happen again in the same corner. It can be a hairpin, a fast corner, anything. Same with the cars. I had the same experience with the Porsche 918 Spyder and the F-150 Raptor. It is really annoying because I would really enjoy this game otherwise, but this 'issue' gets on my nerves rather quickly, as I do not want to rewind the game, as that makes it that much easier.
Can you please suggest what might be the issue?



The only thing I can think of is that being torque steer due to the cars being AWD.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#2329 Posted : Friday, July 19, 2019 6:46:34 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Papparonie Go to Quoted Post
Hi guys,
Apologies if I post this in the wrong topic, and that I haven't read all 94 pages of replies.
I recently bought a Logitech G920 Wheel with the Gear Shifter. Also got the GT Omega Classic Stand with it, all for £300, which is a substantial investment for someone who has never played a Sim-like game before. My previous racing experience is NFS and Forza Horizon.
Anyways, I have tweeked the settings a lot lately, and got to a reasonable setting, where I copied a Youtuber's settings from the Feb 2019 update. Most of the time, 9 out of 10 corners, everything is fine, the cars handle smoothly, as they should. But every once in a while, I feel the wheel getting harder and harder to turn, feel like it wants to turn itself, and then all of a sudden, it breaks loose, and turns god knows why. After I crash and rewind, it does not happen again in the same corner. It can be a hairpin, a fast corner, anything. Same with the cars. I had the same experience with the Porsche 918 Spyder and the F-150 Raptor. It is really annoying because I would really enjoy this game otherwise, but this 'issue' gets on my nerves rather quickly, as I do not want to rewind the game, as that makes it that much easier.
Can you please suggest what might be the issue?



The only thing I can think of is that being torque steer due to the cars being AWD.


Hasn't that been a bug before? Specific to Logitech wheels, even?
Edit: no I think it was Fanatecs.. Blue028 posted a video about it?.. idk.

Edited by user Friday, July 19, 2019 6:47:41 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#2330 Posted : Friday, July 19, 2019 11:49:57 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Papparonie Go to Quoted Post
Hi guys,
Apologies if I post this in the wrong topic, and that I haven't read all 94 pages of replies.
I recently bought a Logitech G920 Wheel with the Gear Shifter. Also got the GT Omega Classic Stand with it, all for £300, which is a substantial investment for someone who has never played a Sim-like game before. My previous racing experience is NFS and Forza Horizon.
Anyways, I have tweeked the settings a lot lately, and got to a reasonable setting, where I copied a Youtuber's settings from the Feb 2019 update. Most of the time, 9 out of 10 corners, everything is fine, the cars handle smoothly, as they should. But every once in a while, I feel the wheel getting harder and harder to turn, feel like it wants to turn itself, and then all of a sudden, it breaks loose, and turns god knows why. After I crash and rewind, it does not happen again in the same corner. It can be a hairpin, a fast corner, anything. Same with the cars. I had the same experience with the Porsche 918 Spyder and the F-150 Raptor. It is really annoying because I would really enjoy this game otherwise, but this 'issue' gets on my nerves rather quickly, as I do not want to rewind the game, as that makes it that much easier.
Can you please suggest what might be the issue?



The only thing I can think of is that being torque steer due to the cars being AWD.


Hasn't that been a bug before? Specific to Logitech wheels, even?
Edit: no I think it was Fanatecs.. Blue028 posted a video about it?.. idk.

No clue, unfortunately I don't run either hardware so my guess is just a guess. If it's a bug, it's an odd one.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#2331 Posted : Tuesday, July 23, 2019 5:21:15 PM(UTC)
Why do I feel like there's a block of leaden jello moving inside my car when I turn in?
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#2332 Posted : Tuesday, July 23, 2019 8:58:04 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post

Hasn't that been a bug before? Specific to Logitech wheels, even?
Edit: no I think it was Fanatecs.. Blue028 posted a video about it?.. idk.


Only thing I can recall being specific to fanatec csr wheels was in the demo they could bug out and not receive proper FFB.

Can't say I've ever encountered any issues with the car/physics doing their own thing randomly, has been a very consistent experience for me, even before all the ffb updates
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#2333 Posted : Friday, July 26, 2019 6:00:17 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Why do I feel like there's a block of leaden jello moving inside my car when I turn in?

What is your FFB settings and what assists are you running?
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#2334 Posted : Saturday, July 27, 2019 12:19:36 AM(UTC)
It's not the FFB. I see it on controller too, with chase and 1st person cams. Extraordinary sluggishness along the roll axis.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#2335 Posted : Saturday, July 27, 2019 3:26:04 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
It's not the FFB. I see it on controller too, with chase and 1st person cams. Extraordinary sluggishness along the roll axis.

Just because you see it on the controller doesn't mean it's written the same way for wheels. It's been confirmed to be the complete opposite. It's written entirely different for wheels. The controller is just designed that way to aid the user as they're not actually driving the car with a wheel.

The controller has hidden assists that cannot be turned off. These are:

A speed sensitive friction assist that automatically adjusts the steering angle based on the peak friction of the front tires and the speed of the car to give the front tires near maximum peak friction at all times. This is not present when using a wheel.

A roll damper that compensates for the feeling of not actually being in the car. This reduces the speed of the roll axis, particularly when transitioning to compensate for the lack of actually using a wheel to give controller users more control. This is not present on a wheel when using Simulation Steering.

A steering buffer to not allow controller users to go from lock to lock instantly. This is not present on a wheel.

Without these settings, driving on a controller would be impossible. You cannot toggle these hidden assists off no matter what you do or what adjusts you run.

So if you are running simulation steering on a wheel, none of these effects should effect you at all unless your settings are completely wrong, which considering you've turned off Pneumatic Trail completely is probably the case. Or you're on PC and have the 'Controller Filters' option turned on.

Hence why I'm asking you to show your full force feedback settings and hardware as this problem doesn't seem to be shared by anyone I've ever talked to either on the forums, discord or within my circle of friends and when there has been a problem, it's usually been down to extremely poor settings.

What you've described seems to me like you either have the damper set far too high, or the centre sprong set far too high which essentially cancels out dynamic force feedback and can cause severe clipping.

Edited by user Saturday, July 27, 2019 3:28:01 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#2336 Posted : Saturday, July 27, 2019 5:33:19 AM(UTC)
Controller filter off, damper 0, center spring 0. It's possible the one car I spent significant time on the wheel with was overdamped, the lowest I had it was about 4.0 rebound.. I've realized Horizon 4's dampers are quite strong, and often use less than 3 lately on controller. I spent some time drifting around the airfield with a Volvo later, dampers all around 2.5, it felt ok.

Are you sure the controller damper is roll? I thought it was yaw.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#2337 Posted: : Saturday, July 27, 2019 5:58:29 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Controller filter off, damper 0, center spring 0. It's possible the one car I spent significant time on the wheel with was overdamped, the lowest I had it was about 4.0 rebound.. I've realized Horizon 4's dampers are quite strong, and often use less than 3 lately on controller. I spent some time drifting around the airfield with a Volvo later, dampers all around 2.5, it felt ok.

Are you sure the controller damper is roll? I thought it was yaw.

To my knowledge its roll, the buffer to steering input is there for yaw and general transitioning.

What are your other FFB settings? Aligning torque, vibration, FFB scale, mechanical trail scale, pneumatic trail scale (which I know is 0), deadzones, load sensitivity, etc.

How is your control panel on your logitech and I assume you have the correct drivers installed right?

Also have you checked for clipping in the telemetry?

I might be able to lend a hand if you list some stuff, but your damper and centre spring is fine. I personal run a slight bit of damper and centre spring, though reduce it depending on the degree of rotation used and I'd never go above 10 on either with 900° DOR and 200 FFB.

Edited by user Saturday, July 27, 2019 5:59:14 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#2338 Posted : Saturday, July 27, 2019 6:03:59 AM(UTC)
Also have you read the support page? If not, it's linked here:

https://support.forzamot...4-Wheel-Setup-and-Tuning
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#2339 Posted : Saturday, July 27, 2019 3:05:32 PM(UTC)
Evan is right, normal steering affects how fast the car can roll, which has an effect on the yaw as well since the weight transfer becomes much less aggressive, you can see it here when I analysed what the difference between normal and sim was back when everyone was saying it was broken FM7 normal vs simulation steering
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#2340 Posted : Saturday, July 27, 2019 5:38:01 PM(UTC)
I use sim steering on controller and wheel.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#2341 Posted : Sunday, July 28, 2019 2:14:57 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
I use sim steering on controller and wheel.

Yes but they're not the same. They're not written the same. SIM in a wheel and on a controller are completely different because of hidden "assists" that are applied to a controller that can't be toggles off to compensate for the fact of not actually being in a car.

By removing pneumatic trail, you've removed effects of all of these and probably more:

Weight transfer load
Downforce Load
Tire Slip
Understeer
Locking Up

By removing pneumatic trail you've also completely eliminated sky effect of the 'Load Senitivity' setting because you've removed all effects of load.

What are your other settings? I've asked this God knows how many times now. If you don't list them no one will be able to know it help if it's a setting problem.

I don't understand why you don't just use pneumatic trail? There's no benefit in turning it completely off. All you've done is just turn off multiple layers of car information.

I'll list off my settings when I get back home as that may help. Blue also has some pretty nice settings as well.




Rank: B-Class Racing License
#2342 Posted : Tuesday, July 30, 2019 4:25:49 PM(UTC)
The FFB needs a minimum force setting. it would help lots.
Also why is steering wheel tuning not available in-race? Why are the menus so slow and why are the force settings below deadzone settings in the advanced controller settings menu? Who thought that would be efficient?

Edited by user Tuesday, July 30, 2019 4:37:43 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#2343 Posted : Tuesday, July 30, 2019 8:06:47 PM(UTC)
I've tried Forza, with controller, with a wheel, with all different types of settings and I can't stand it. It's the tires, the anti-features, the total aesthetic, the lethargy, and apathy.

Edited by user Tuesday, July 30, 2019 8:12:39 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#2344 Posted : Wednesday, July 31, 2019 6:12:41 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
I've tried Forza, with controller, with a wheel, with all different types of settings and I can't stand it. It's the tires, the anti-features, the total aesthetic, the lethargy, and apathy.


Go play AC or PC2 with a controller and then FM7. AC is essentially unplayable with a controller and I would consider FM7 superior to PC2 also using a controller. On the wheel there is some room to argue but I would say FM7 is the only game that isn't better with a wheel. It's more fun with a wheel in my opinion but not as competitive.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#2345 Posted : Wednesday, July 31, 2019 12:11:15 PM(UTC)
It is playable. Past the lethargy, the lazy menus, the excessive contrast and darkening of the track and car on many tracks, FM7 fills me with the question "Do I care enough to put up with this?" I feel it's more interested in playing me than being played.

It's not as competitive because the tires are made to be as fickle as possible.
Why? To make controller driving more interesting.
Why was controller driving not interesting? Because it was never coded well, and heavy injected forces were resorted to, undermining the potential for engagement.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#2346 Posted : Wednesday, July 31, 2019 8:45:29 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
It is playable. Past the lethargy, the lazy menus, the excessive contrast and darkening of the track and car on many tracks, FM7 fills me with the question "Do I care enough to put up with this?" I feel it's more interested in playing me than being played.

It's not as competitive because the tires are made to be as fickle as possible.
Why? To make controller driving more interesting.
Why was controller driving not interesting? Because it was never coded well, and heavy injected forces were resorted to, undermining the potential for engagement.


It's not as competitive because of the autstanding systems T10 has in place for the conteoller, they set the industry standard here by a country mile hands down. They havnt done anything to 'make controller driving more interesting' the tyre model is very very good bar the fact that temperature simulation is very simplified to make the game more accessible. Still have no idea were your pulling these 'injected forces' frome either...

"Do I care enough to put up with this?" You already answed you own question, you've already stated multiple time that you dislike playing it and that you've uninstalled it. Move on.

Edited by user Wednesday, July 31, 2019 8:47:47 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#2347 Posted : Thursday, August 1, 2019 1:42:33 AM(UTC)
I believe Forza 7 tires were configured to be more dynamic with stiff springs, particularly on controller, at the expense of realistic (softer) street tunes, and drivability in any condition. In real life, soft springs are more forgiving because they buffer weight transfer. FM7 tires have a small "functional range" for all aspects of performance. Elevation changes, abrupt or gradual, cause immense increase or decrease in grip. Stiff springs are practically necessary, just to mentally keep up with the tires' enigmatic nature. This is wrong.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#2348 Posted : Thursday, August 1, 2019 6:17:45 AM(UTC)
Honestly, I am a very critical of this game/series. For lack of improving and just throwing more content. But the driving dynamics arent nearly as bad as you say. Yes even after the updates its still not good on a wheel. I would venture to guess you are messing up the tunes more than helping. Do not let the visuals fool you too much with what the car is doing. The cars definitely seem to wallow much more than other games visually but they are essentially doing the same thing just the lateral and moment of inertia loading seems to be much more exaggerated than other games. I think the FFB is bad and you are having a hard time distinguishing between that and physics (however i still believe that the physics is fluffed which is why they have such a hard time with ffb.)

You are likely making this worse with your ffb settings and then tuning. Making suspension stiffer rarely helps. And it sounds like you are also over complicating the dampers by trying to figure real life values to the fictitious number that forza uses. Try going outside of what you assume is norm. High rebound low bump works well on app 80% of vehicles. High bump usually makes the car handle poorly on curbs, low rebound will exaggerate the already sloppy suspensions. The tuning menu is super simplified version and the way i look at it is on tuning is the menus dont correlate to actual for the car, they are more of a scale based on excepted ranges for the car.

Edited by user Thursday, August 1, 2019 6:18:25 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified


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Rank: B-Class Racing License
#2349 Posted : Saturday, August 3, 2019 5:05:03 PM(UTC)
The dynamics aren't bad, they're exaggerated, to the point I can't be aggressive and have fun. For example, when an inside wheel locks during trail braking, or the rear kicks out on exit...

It's possible. By stiffer, I mean from 300lbs to 450lbs, or 550. In a street car that's a lot. I also was using race bracing in everything, like I do in Horizon, because chassis flex usually complicates suspension tuning, and race bracing improves the weight distribution in all but FWDs (front-heavy is better so I use centrifugal superchargers with max intercooler and oil&cooling).

Bump damping I never went over 6, and that was the Ford Hawk II. In production cars I had around 3-4 bump/rebound, less if they were "soft", 350-400 pounds. I didn't put much time in tuning on the wheel aside from drifting, which I quickly realized is more broken that grip racing, that's when I uninstalled again.

EpicEvan777 if you're wondering, because I reinstalled at your suggestion, I did have a better experience turning pneumatic trail back up. Since early this year, the mechanical trail seems to have been softened within the range pneumatic trail is active, letting them work together as one centering force better than before, which is good, I guess.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#2350 Posted : Tuesday, August 6, 2019 4:45:13 AM(UTC)
Cant be aggressive? Of the racing titles/sims I play/ have played if you think forza is unforgiving under braking or on throttle may not want to try any other ones. I find forza one of the most forgiving.


Where does this claim that chassis flex is modeled keep coming from? Can someone please point it out?


You do know that oil & cooling is one of if not the worst upgrades you can do in the entire series correct? Very small power gain big weight added.

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