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Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#2276 Posted : Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:09:08 AM(UTC)
I never really understood the road feel/ lack of road feel argument. Drive your car down the road and tell me how much you actually feel in the wheel. Personally i dont want to feel any of that nonsense in the wheel that you dont really feel. Heck in a real car you dont even feel most of the core ffb effects nevermind the additional nonsense. I want wheel feel to be very primitive and realistic but also to provide me the maximum essential information to going fast. Road feel is not one of those. Like I said drive down the road and even aim at a pothole but really focus on what your hands feel not what you feel through your hole body and tell me how much of the road you fell.

@kdogg - I am glad you noticed a difference from 6 to 7... I didnt unless you count going from absolutely horrendous to completely atrocious an improvement... There is not 1 setting in the games actual settings that even moderately resemble good ffb. I would still like to know what they are using as the core of their ffb system. What information are they using to provide us with the information they send to the wheel. Obviously the information is their for a proper ffb because the likes of platos emuwheel wouldn't work without the information through the apk... just dont know where t10 gets their interpretation from, apparently noone there has ever played any racing game/sim other than forza or has never driven a car on track or even the road for that matter.

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#2277 Posted : Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:22:45 AM(UTC)
I think they mean like a constant level of minor vibration or back and forth random FFB feeling following the track surface (that's supposedly scanned to the inch or something). That way the wheel doesn't feel dead until cornering or turning happens. I think it's different in road cars driven by people day to day because those cars are designed for comfort and to have a floaty ride with not as much transmitted through the wheel. I admit, I'm not a race driver either, but i assume that with a race tuned car, that you can feel and respond to the road better.

yes FM7 does feel like an improvement to me, but coming from games like Dirt Rally, the feel of the car is not really there yet. Hoping this FFB change does something good for the wheel experience but we've been waiting for a long time now.

-k
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#2278 Posted : Thursday, November 15, 2018 10:36:08 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Kdogg788 Go to Quoted Post
@Recar: Do you use that with an Xbox One, and if so, how do you get it to function?

@Evan: Yeah they could use some more actual road vibration or road to wheel movement. I'm looking at upgrading my F1 2016 to F1 2018 next week on Black Friday since I've heard from multiple people that the FFB is much improved. With F1 2016 I had to set the wheel weight all the way up to avoid oscillations on wet tracks.

-k


I use a optical to rca converter, and Dirt Rally feels great with the Buttkicker.

https://www.amazon.com/s...1&crid=30KD4K29VRH32

Edited by user Thursday, November 15, 2018 10:44:45 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Thrustmaster TX on a homemade wooden frame on Xbox one

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Rank: S-Class Racing License
#2279 Posted : Thursday, November 15, 2018 11:24:09 AM(UTC)
I didn't even know the XB1 had optical output, but that's good to be aware of, especially if I decide to get a Buttkicker and the bolt on attachment for the GT Omega ART. And yeah, I love Dirt Rally.

-k
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#2280 Posted : Thursday, November 15, 2018 11:46:14 AM(UTC)
BTW kdogg pro isn't much more expensive than the art and is quite a bit more sturdy and has more options to grow your setup. I can also get you a discount to if you are interested which will probably make them about the same price if you havent already made the jump.

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#2281 Posted : Thursday, November 15, 2018 3:06:08 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
apparently noone there has ever played any racing game/sim other than forza


No apparently about it.

Its a racing game made by people who dont play racing games.
Its a game that is pieced together with 13 years of code made by other people, maintained by other people who never wrote the first instance, thats "fixed" by someone else.
Talking to brick walls since 2007.
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Rank: Driver's License
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#2282 Posted : Friday, November 16, 2018 1:39:03 AM(UTC)
The adtional effects added to force feedback, to my mind, are to help provide a more 'natural' feel.

When driving your real car, or for those lucky enough to have access to a track and track toys, you perception of what is going on around you is 10 fold to that of just the whell feel. The felelings, and to a large extent your judgement, is adided by the vehicle itself felt through the body, inertia and the stereostrpopic image fed to you by the brain.

Without the additional effects being fed to the wheel on console/pc, you would lose a lot of what is naturally felt when drivding?

Of course, these are just my thoughts on it, and as we now, FFB is a very personal beast.

Edited by user Friday, November 16, 2018 1:41:29 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#2283 Posted : Friday, November 16, 2018 3:09:57 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
I never really understood the road feel/ lack of road feel argument. Drive your car down the road and tell me how much you actually feel in the wheel. Personally i dont want to feel any of that nonsense in the wheel that you dont really feel. Heck in a real car you dont even feel most of the core ffb effects nevermind the additional nonsense. I want wheel feel to be very primitive and realistic but also to provide me the maximum essential information to going fast. Road feel is not one of those. Like I said drive down the road and even aim at a pothole but really focus on what your hands feel not what you feel through your hole body and tell me how much of the road you fell.

@kdogg - I am glad you noticed a difference from 6 to 7... I didnt unless you count going from absolutely horrendous to completely atrocious an improvement... There is not 1 setting in the games actual settings that even moderately resemble good ffb. I would still like to know what they are using as the core of their ffb system. What information are they using to provide us with the information they send to the wheel. Obviously the information is their for a proper ffb because the likes of platos emuwheel wouldn't work without the information through the apk... just dont know where t10 gets their interpretation from, apparently noone there has ever played any racing game/sim other than forza or has never driven a car on track or even the road for that matter.

Though I agree with you mostly, I have been driving cars with very low profile tires, very stiff suspension and have hit potholes when driving them. You do get a very abrupt shock through the wheel as well as the body. That isn't really present in Forza. Some cars absorb the potholes better than others. We have a Nissan van which takes the potholes like a champ. Bear in mind I live in rural Ireland which is pothole central & I actually know of someone who completely destroyed his front left suspension by hitting a pothole.

I don't think the road feel needs to be very over exaggerated as it is in a lot of games, however driving at 260+ mph down the mullsane straight and being able to completely let go of the wheel without any consequence is totally wrong. Same with bottoming out. You should be able to feel something when what happens but there is no feel whatsoever present in Forza. Again I'm not looking for my wheel to be shaking constantly going over bumps as that's not realistic at all but I am looking for it to react at least somewhat instead of not all.

As for other Sims, I have played a lot. Real world racing not so much because of lack of money and simply no race tracks where I live, saying that though I have driven one or two nice cars in the open roads.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#2284 Posted : Friday, November 16, 2018 3:17:22 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Kdogg788 Go to Quoted Post
@Recar: Do you use that with an Xbox One, and if so, how do you get it to function?

@Evan: Yeah they could use some more actual road vibration or road to wheel movement. I'm looking at upgrading my F1 2016 to F1 2018 next week on Black Friday since I've heard from multiple people that the FFB is much improved. With F1 2016 I had to set the wheel weight all the way up to avoid oscillations on wet tracks.

-k

The only major problem in F1's FFB is the lateral slide problem that had plauged F1 for so long now. Lateral slide still occurs in the base physics in F1 2018 which really shouldn't happen in cars with that much downforce and there is no communication from the FFB when it happens. It's more of a physics than a FFB issue but it does affect the wheel too sadly.

Overall though the FFB did improve a lot. It's not perfect, but it's enough to feel immersed and know what the car is doing 80% of the time.
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#2285 Posted : Friday, November 16, 2018 9:54:25 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Though I agree with you mostly, I have been driving cars with very low profile tires, very stiff suspension and have hit potholes when driving them. You do get a very abrupt shock through the wheel as well as the body. That isn't really present in Forza. Some cars absorb the potholes better than others. We have a Nissan van which takes the potholes like a champ. Bear in mind I live in rural Ireland which is pothole central & I actually know of someone who completely destroyed his front left suspension by hitting a pothole.


I hit a road join coming onto a bridge that would have been the equivalent of a nasty big pothole at around 80-90kmh, on 235/35/19 series tyres and buckled the rim. The steering wheel did not deflect even a degree as I hit it square. I also did not feel the hit through the wheel at all, but the entire body transmitted the shock and it is one of the most intense experiences I've had in a car.

For reference, it was my 2011 Renault Sport Megane Cup Trophee RS 250 (Australian Spec Model).

The car is praised for having great feel through the steering wheel and I tell you, I've owned it since new and it's been my daily driver for about 4 of the years that I've owned it - the wheel doesn't vibrate no matter how nasty the surface - and I drive on remote Australian country roads that shake the interior fitments loose (the wheel buckle happened on one of these roads called the Bylong Valley Way).

Edited by user Friday, November 16, 2018 9:57:06 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#2286 Posted : Saturday, November 17, 2018 6:23:33 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DUST2DEATH Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
apparently noone there has ever played any racing game/sim other than forza


No apparently about it.

Its a racing game made by people who dont play racing games.
Its a game that is pieced together with 13 years of code made by other people, maintained by other people who never wrote the first instance, thats "fixed" by someone else.


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#2287 Posted : Saturday, November 17, 2018 5:39:12 PM(UTC)
Road feel

Real life: not all cars will exhibit pull on the wheel when hitting bumps or pot holes, but some do and it all comes down to the scrub radius of the tyre



Most modern production cars use a neutral/0 scrub radius to make the car more stable when braking, driving over rough roads or accelerating in a FWD car as it will minimise torque steer as the wheel receiving the most torque isn't trying to rotate itself because of a positive or negative scrub radius.

however just because a car may not exhibit moments in the steering wheel doesn't mean that there is no feel for the road coming through it because a car steering wheel is not limited to left/right forces, but it can give subtle vibrations depending on road surface (rough tarmac vs smooth) or a knock that may not be felt through the wheel trying to rotate left or right may be felt as a small vertical or horizontal force on the wheel.

Real world forces can be applied to a 3 dimensional plane and not limited to left/right torque

in game

We are limited to feeling any force through our FFB wheels as left/right torque by design, so any forces that could be felt on a real steering wheel have to be adapted to suit.

In EmuWheels custom FFB I have road feel set very low, as I like it to be just very very subtle, but you will be able to turn it up to FH4 levels or off completely if that what you prefer.

I do believe road feel is an important part of FFB but everyone will have their own preferences on what they would like to feel from their wheel.

Edited by user Saturday, November 17, 2018 5:49:04 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#2288 Posted : Sunday, November 18, 2018 12:00:22 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DUST2DEATH Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
apparently noone there has ever played any racing game/sim other than forza


No apparently about it.

Its a racing game made by people who dont play racing games.
Its a game that is pieced together with 13 years of code made by other people, maintained by other people who never wrote the first instance, thats "fixed" by someone else.


What do you mean? Game was built from the ground up in forza 5 as they couldn't use the old stuff on the next gen consoles remember?

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#2289 Posted : Sunday, November 18, 2018 1:48:01 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
BTW kdogg pro isn't much more expensive than the art and is quite a bit more sturdy and has more options to grow your setup. I can also get you a discount to if you are interested which will probably make them about the same price if you havent already made the jump.


Ive had the ART for a couple months now and love it. Apparently the pedal board used to be a composite material that had quite a bit of flex, but it has been replaced with a thick metal plate that works really well for hard mounting the pedals. I can also break the setup into two pieces and wheel it into a different room easily for storage. All in all, it works amazingly well. Thanks for the offer though.

-k
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#2290 Posted : Tuesday, November 20, 2018 6:25:59 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: DUST2DEATH Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
apparently noone there has ever played any racing game/sim other than forza


No apparently about it.

Its a racing game made by people who dont play racing games.
Its a game that is pieced together with 13 years of code made by other people, maintained by other people who never wrote the first instance, thats "fixed" by someone else.


What do you mean? Game was built from the ground up in forza 5 as they couldn't use the old stuff on the next gen consoles remember?


I think we can tell that even if they had to rebuild everything, they effectively ported their code from the old platform to the new as we are seeing the same issues from last gen appearing in current gen.
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#2291 Posted : Tuesday, November 20, 2018 7:28:14 PM(UTC)
I know I was being sarcastic.

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#2292 Posted : Wednesday, November 28, 2018 4:58:01 PM(UTC)
Hi guys and gals, so is the new FFB from FH4 ported over to FM7 yet? Any news?
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#2293 Posted : Friday, November 30, 2018 2:17:55 PM(UTC)
I think you mean the other way around.. does/will FH4 have FM7's FFB?
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#2294 Posted : Friday, November 30, 2018 6:47:19 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: GreatFlea815883 Go to Quoted Post
I think you mean the other way around.. does/will FH4 have FM7's FFB?


No.

FH4 has the newest version of Forza FFB.

Stated very clearly on the new support site in the introduction article on steering wheels and FFB.
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#2295 Posted : Saturday, December 1, 2018 2:33:24 AM(UTC)
They have said however that they are working on improving the FFB for Forza Motorsport 7, or at least I believe that's what Turn 10 mentioned. Hopefully at bare minimum, we get a FH4 port. Though the FFB isn't perfect in Forza Horizon 4 either, it is slightly better than Forza Motorsport 7's, especially after they patched it.
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#2296 Posted : Monday, December 3, 2018 9:25:04 AM(UTC)
I would stop playing FM7 if they port the FFB from FH4 to FM7. Its terrible(XBOX one X). no on center feel at all. Vague and unusual inputs constantly. even the clutch is still broken in FH4. I've come to adjust and like the feel of FM7 FFB although it could be improved. I don't understand why don't they just run a test server for us to try these new codes and give feedback to them?
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#2297 Posted : Monday, December 3, 2018 11:01:07 AM(UTC)
New FFB system arriving in tomorrow's update!!!!
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#2298 Posted : Monday, December 3, 2018 11:36:42 AM(UTC)
"Importantly for wheel users, this new wheel update completely replaces the old system, which means players’ tuning values from before December will be reset. Wheel users will need to tune from scratch to take advantage of this new and improved system. For a full rundown of the new force feedback system, check out the updated FM7 Wheel Guide on the Forza Support site."

I wonder if this completely replaces is the same as built from the ground up like forza 5 was for the new xbox console... yet somehow any of the cars with issues that were built from the ground up, were built from the ground up with the same issues they had in previous forzas...

Blue, Dust.... awaiting your reviews before i even bother reinstalling.

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#2299 Posted : Monday, December 3, 2018 12:46:52 PM(UTC)
I've been advised to write down my current wheel settings as everything will be reset to default following the update. I actually think the current system is decent ok it's not to the levels of Assetto Corsa but it's good enough. Hopefully they don't ruin it. On a side note highly recommend FACR Facebook group. Amazing community and lots of events to get involved in. Dave and the guys do an amazing job. The Hot Lap Challenges are really enjoyable to see how you compete on a weekly basis
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#2300 Posted : Monday, December 3, 2018 7:20:32 PM(UTC)
I've had a quick read on the support site which details the changes.

https://support.forzamot...-Wheel-Setup-and-Tuning

https://support.forzamot...0012861313-Introduction

https://support.forzamot...rt-7-Force-Feedback-FAQ

Certainly appears to be a continuation of the development done for FH4:

Q: Why does FFB in Forza Horizon 4 feel different between Forza Motorsport 7 and Forza Horizon 3?

A: Every Forza game evolves Force Feedback. Forza Motorsport 7 uses a system which has evolved since FM4, each iteration improving on the last. Forza Horizon 4 uses a different system than FM7, and future iterations of Forza games will evolve it further. The reason we have separate systems is because both teams at Turn 10 and Playground Games are advancing FFB with each title. Every iteration has been better than the last. We are always striving to improve the system as well as the options available for players to fine tune settings to their preferred play style.

Even if the two games shared the same FFB system, they would feel different. While FM and FH games share the same physics engine and car physics data, Horizon uses a different handling model and tire compounds to suit its open world gameplay (slow-moving and oncoming traffic, off-roading, faster roads and turns in general than race tracks, etc.). Motorsport and Horizon handling feels familiar, yet different, to those who play both using a controller or a wheel.
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