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Rank: Driver's Permit
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#2251 Posted : Thursday, October 4, 2018 8:07:31 PM(UTC)
Is there hope for FFB ?

https://www.fullthrottle...rticle/forza-7-feedback

So, whilst there’s no release date yet for the updated collisions and physics model – keep in mind this is just what’s being working on and experimented with internally, the team are also rebuilding their force-feedback system for wheel users as well. Esaki wants to begin treating their PC players and wheel users as “first-class citizens,” just like they do with controller and console. Forza has delivered seven solid generations of incredible gamepad support in each Motorsport entry, but Esaki admits the team haven’t done that yet with wheel.


With the wheel and force-feedback support, Turn 10 is completely rethinking how it approaches this, but let’s take a quick history lesson first of all. Forza Motorsport 6 had the same force-feedback used for a couple of entries into the franchise, but you couldn’t feel oversteer with it – there simply wasn’t any feedback for this. Turn 10 used tires and their data to develop its old force-feedback system and produce an aligning torque. It would feed this data back to its database, which for the record is an unrivalled set of tires data, and then figure out how much torque should go back to the steering wheel. The element missing here though was the car and how to drive the vehicle’s reaction back to the force-feedback model.

This was improved upon and fixed in Forza Motorsport 7, with the tire friction surface and its moving axis made relevant. This resulted in good oversteer and understeer, and it allowed drifters to let go of the wheel and lightly toss it, but there was still another element missing – the road. Data from the tire simply doesn’t have a way to feed road data back into the tire and ultimately to the force-feedback system. This meant Turn 10 had to take a completely different approach, go back to the drawing board and rethink the entire system from scratch.


By essentially throwing away the old system that’s currently used in the retail version of Forza Motorsport 7, the developer drew up a new physical-based system. Because all cars have an accurate suspension system, they were able to use this to develop the new force-feedback model with torque and allow it to effectively reach the wheel. This delivers an accurate feeling, and based on Turn 10’s comments, once it’s setup, it works beautifully and is far more intuitive than what’s been in the Forza series before.

The most obvious difference to all-players with the new force-feedback system will be seen in how you drive straight across the different surfaces in Forza Motorsport 7, with the cobblestones of Prague being called out as a notable example. Additionally, the kerbs of track will also be felt as a driving force into the wheel. Naturally, the team continues to make tweaks to the system, but because there’s far more communication between the road and wheel than before, it makes the car more intuitive to drive – and much closer to driving a real car.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#2252 Posted : Thursday, October 4, 2018 8:36:03 PM(UTC)
Oh this sounds good. Seriously it's about time they caught up with AC, PCARS and others in terms of FFB. If they have the suspension geometry modeled correctly then it should be straightforward. I really look forward to feeling the caster angle through FFB strength.

(Now they just need to support VR headsets :P At least the WMR yeah?)

Edited by user Thursday, October 4, 2018 8:37:09 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#2253 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2018 12:52:57 AM(UTC)
New FFB, adjudication system, and collision assist are among the improvements I hope make racing with a wheel more competitive. Especially in tight packs where a dozen of minor bumps and shunts(if you're lucky, as we all know) can occur in the first few turns. It can be fairly easy to account for "rubbin is racin" with a gamepad. Not so much with a wheel, which generally makes it quite a chore, a tiresome chore.

This is all good news!
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#2254 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2018 2:42:54 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PickLokc Go to Quoted Post
New FFB, adjudication system, and collision assist are among the improvements I hope make racing with a wheel more competitive. Especially in tight packs where a dozen of minor bumps and shunts(if you're lucky, as we all know) can occur in the first few turns. It can be fairly easy to account for "rubbin is racin" with a gamepad. Not so much with a wheel, which generally makes it quite a chore, a tiresome chore.

This is all good news!


Since they are starting to take wheels more seriously, maybe they can give us a wheel only Forza RC
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#2255 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2018 3:43:36 AM(UTC)
Well isn’t this great news! It has been more fun to drive with a wheel but it just isn’t as competitive as a pad because of the lack of feedback. Sure you can drive very fast with a wheel but the amount of practice needed is 10 times more than with a pad at the moment.
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#2256 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2018 9:13:48 AM(UTC)
I can't race with a pad. My brain isn't wired that way, I didn't feel like "training" it that way, and I got the game for the semi-sim aspect, which is kinda moot for me (immersion wise) with a pad.

Anyway, I had with various resources, videos, and fooling around (plus getting familiar with through use) gotten pretty comfortable with the TMX-Pro setup and enjoyed career mode. Then I saw the recent FACR video, and recognized some of his points from my remaining less than ideal feedback. Afte recording my settings as a safety net, I followed his descriptions to the letter, and was very impressed by some of the results relative to control and catching/correcting. However, taken verbatim, those settings left the feel pretty much dead for anything other than control, no real "feedback". Maybe it's because I got used to it as it was, but I didn't like that. So some of the feedback settings came back in, though nowhere near where they were. The tweaked setup I'm now running is VASTLY superior to what I had come up with I had produced with the older references and fooling around on my own. If you have a wheel, I highly recommend you watch his video, try the testings, and perhaps as I did, tweak them a little to suit. My satisfaction with my setup is very substantially improved now, and the direct control with the wheel feels so much better, it's hard to explain. It's amazing how those unbelievably stupid setting descriptions (AND completely botched UI) negatively impacted the game for ALL of us, and never got any help, feedback, or fixes from T10. They talk a good fight on these streams about the improvements they are making, but when they can't even get that right OR inform the community of these things, I have zero respect. Apparently it took someone like him (can't recall name) with connections to talk with T10 about it in depth, after having already used said resources to come to an incomplete conclusion (and video) earlier, AND using the improved (actually readable!!!!) UI of a new product, to finally get useful answers after over a year. No excuse...

Edited by user Friday, October 5, 2018 9:16:36 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
#2257 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2018 11:12:47 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ThanaJ Go to Quoted Post
Well isn’t this great news! It has been more fun to drive with a wheel but it just isn’t as competitive as a pad because of the lack of feedback. Sure you can drive very fast with a wheel but the amount of practice needed is 10 times more than with a pad at the moment.


With the gamepad super steering aid, which always steers to max lateral force, I don't think the wheel user would be competitive even with new feedback. I mean, with the new feedback, you'd still need to feel the force and adjust accordingly. Whereas with the pad you just push to max.

Originally Posted by: BadDog1966 Go to Quoted Post
I can't race with a pad. My brain isn't wired that way, I didn't feel like "training" it that way, and I got the game for the semi-sim aspect, which is kinda moot for me (immersion wise) with a pad.

Anyway, I had with various resources, videos, and fooling around (plus getting familiar with through use) gotten pretty comfortable with the TMX-Pro setup and enjoyed career mode. Then I saw the recent FACR video, and recognized some of his points from my remaining less than ideal feedback. Afte recording my settings as a safety net, I followed his descriptions to the letter, and was very impressed by some of the results relative to control and catching/correcting. However, taken verbatim, those settings left the feel pretty much dead for anything other than control, no real "feedback". Maybe it's because I got used to it as it was, but I didn't like that. So some of the feedback settings came back in, though nowhere near where they were. The tweaked setup I'm now running is VASTLY superior to what I had come up with I had produced with the older references and fooling around on my own. If you have a wheel, I highly recommend you watch his video, try the testings, and perhaps as I did, tweak them a little to suit. My satisfaction with my setup is very substantially improved now, and the direct control with the wheel feels so much better, it's hard to explain. It's amazing how those unbelievably stupid setting descriptions (AND completely botched UI) negatively impacted the game for ALL of us, and never got any help, feedback, or fixes from T10. They talk a good fight on these streams about the improvements they are making, but when they can't even get that right OR inform the community of these things, I have zero respect. Apparently it took someone like him (can't recall name) with connections to talk with T10 about it in depth, after having already used said resources to come to an incomplete conclusion (and video) earlier, AND using the improved (actually readable!!!!) UI of a new product, to finally get useful answers after over a year. No excuse...


I don't "train" with the gamepad control either because it's so pointless. Every game designer comes up with a new gamepad routine, and it never translates across games. What's the point of getting good with one designer's invention which has nothing to do with any other racing game, and nothing to do with reality?

If they revamp the whole FFB system, then likely the current UI will be discarded, which is great. The current UI makes no sense at all. And we really shouldn't need to adjust so many things. I didn't need to adjust anything playing AC or PCARS2.
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#2258 Posted : Wednesday, October 24, 2018 5:42:15 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Tapidlittle360 Go to Quoted Post


Take History.
Deduct word smithing.
Adjust for climate.

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#2259 Posted : Friday, October 26, 2018 6:25:44 AM(UTC)
Esaki seems to be saying the right things. Hopefully the team pulls through with the FFB update, and I hope that happens sooner rather than later. The game can use proper feeling FFB. That's for sure. But the roadmap that Esaki mentioned is 3 years out. So that probably means that the FFB will not be updated for FM7 anytime soon. :(



For those who didn't watch the latest Forza Monthly. Here's where the Physics in Forza 7 are discussed.

https://youtu.be/nhHacD2spcs?t=3901



But yeah, Dust. I agree with the gif you posted. I'll reserve judgement when the update happens and I have it installed in my game.

Edited by user Friday, October 26, 2018 6:44:15 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I can do what I want... After I have done everything I need to do.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#2260 Posted : Friday, October 26, 2018 8:00:51 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: transfix Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PickLokc Go to Quoted Post
New FFB, adjudication system, and collision assist are among the improvements I hope make racing with a wheel more competitive. Especially in tight packs where a dozen of minor bumps and shunts(if you're lucky, as we all know) can occur in the first few turns. It can be fairly easy to account for "rubbin is racin" with a gamepad. Not so much with a wheel, which generally makes it quite a chore, a tiresome chore.

This is all good news!


Since they are starting to take wheels more seriously, maybe they can give us a wheel only Forza RC


I LIKE the idea! :-)

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#2261 Posted : Saturday, October 27, 2018 8:45:27 PM(UTC)
I agree. It looks ghetto when FRC uses controllers and GT Sport uses wheels.

-k
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#2262 Posted : Wednesday, October 31, 2018 6:02:06 PM(UTC)
I haven’t tried FM7 yet, so how is the FFB on Xbox? Now that it’s on pc it’s harder to decipher who’s playing on what. I don’t really want to buy it unless there is improvement on FFB on counsel.
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#2263 Posted : Wednesday, October 31, 2018 7:01:19 PM(UTC)
I think theres been a big improvement over FM6, however there still is work to be done and they are going to be revising the entire system again in the near future. FFB isn’t perfect but to me, its usable.

-k
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#2264 Posted : Thursday, November 1, 2018 4:27:13 AM(UTC)
Thanks for the reply, maybe I'll rent it first. Really not sure if I want to invest in another empty promise. I just hope they are not going to divide the systems PC for wheel users, Xbox for Pad users.
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#2265 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2018 10:27:37 PM(UTC)
So if I'm understanding this article correctly in the context of the October dev stream and Aaron's commentary, the revised FFB system is the FFB system that exists in FH4:

https://support.forzamot...0001988168-Introduction

If so, Blue028 called it last week.

Edited by user Tuesday, November 6, 2018 10:28:44 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#2266 Posted : Friday, November 9, 2018 6:59:15 PM(UTC)


Im telling you, they wont ever fix it because their priorities are backwards.
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Rank: A-Class Racing License
#2267 Posted : Friday, November 9, 2018 7:41:49 PM(UTC)
For some crazy reason I keep being optimistic, but I agree that the priorities are not where the core fanbase would like them to be.
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#2268 Posted : Wednesday, November 14, 2018 5:40:20 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Kdogg788 Go to Quoted Post
I think theres been a big improvement over FM6, however there still is work to be done and they are going to be revising the entire system again in the near future. FFB isn’t perfect but to me, its usable.

-k


Correct me if I am wrong but you just got your wheel in the early stages of FM7. How can you say there is a huge improvement? Did you go back and try fm6 just for the sake of testing the ffb?

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#2269 Posted : Wednesday, November 14, 2018 6:11:33 AM(UTC)
I've been playing FM5 this week, was playing FM6 and 7 trying to up my rewards score, and I can see the improvements being fresh out of each game. But as always there is much room for improvement still. Just figured I'd throw my 2 cents in.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#2270 Posted : Wednesday, November 14, 2018 6:02:40 PM(UTC)
I got my first wheel at the beginning of FM6 and it made me want to throw my wheel out the window. Thankfully, I persevered and repaired my PC so I could drive Assetto Corsa. If not for that game, I would have reverted to controller.

I've now got a full Fanatec Clubsport setup, a full Next Level Racing rig with triple monitors and I'm super happy with it.

I haven't revisited FM6 with the Fanatec, but with FM7 on PC and yes, I will extend to FH4 as well, are actually enjoyable but flawed experiences with a wheel.

Better than anything that came before, but still a bit below par.

Maybe I will try the old games again with the Fanatec ....
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Rank: B-Class Racing License
#2271 Posted : Thursday, November 15, 2018 5:44:35 AM(UTC)
I found a local guy that had a used copy for sale pretty cheap on FB so I decided to buy it . I like it better than FM6 and as many have stated it still needs improvement, but I must say for some reason it's kinda brought me back to the FM4 days. Maybe because they brought back Maple Valley(love it). I have been getting some enjoyment out of it in Rivals, hopefully i will get my money's worth.

I really don't think it will get much better than this, with every new installment there's always some sort of thread about FFB and wheels . Those thread are always one of the most viewed and responded to threads in their respective forum and they still don't get it, at least not on the xbox. I think by the time they do get it right or closer(if they would at all) it will be time for the next gen counsel and they will have to start all over again.
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#2272 Posted : Thursday, November 15, 2018 7:47:23 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Kdogg788 Go to Quoted Post
I think theres been a big improvement over FM6, however there still is work to be done and they are going to be revising the entire system again in the near future. FFB isn’t perfect but to me, its usable.

-k


Correct me if I am wrong but you just got your wheel in the early stages of FM7. How can you say there is a huge improvement? Did you go back and try fm6 just for the sake of testing the ffb?


I got the wheel a month to a month and a half or so before FM7 launched and set it up running FM6, Dirt Rally, and F1 2016. The demo FM7 demo FFB was awful as we all know, but the game to me is a big improvement over FM6.

-k
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#2273 Posted : Thursday, November 15, 2018 7:56:36 AM(UTC)
Core road feel is Forza's biggest downfall when it comes to FFB I believe. You can't really feel anything in the suspension. Three in formation seems to rely solely on whether the front ties have grip or not. F1 2018 improved the FFB from F1 2017 and the biggest improvement I noticed was the feel of the car bottoming out. In Forza, no effect is present. Then again the physics of bottoming out in Forza is extremely flawed anyway, so unless that's improved it'd have to be a canned effect.
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#2274 Posted : Thursday, November 15, 2018 8:11:01 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Core road feel is Forza's biggest downfall when it comes to FFB I believe. You can't really feel anything in the suspension. Three in formation seems to rely solely on whether the front ties have grip or not. F1 2018 improved the FFB from F1 2017 and the biggest improvement I noticed was the feel of the car bottoming out. In Forza, no effect is present. Then again the physics of bottoming out in Forza is extremely flawed anyway, so unless that's improved it'd have to be a canned effect.


Agreed, I have a buttkicker 2 and there is really no reason to have it on in Forza.
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Thrustmaster TX on a homemade wooden frame for Xbox one.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#2275 Posted : Thursday, November 15, 2018 8:19:33 AM(UTC)
@Recar: Do you use that with an Xbox One, and if so, how do you get it to function?

@Evan: Yeah they could use some more actual road vibration or road to wheel movement. I'm looking at upgrading my F1 2016 to F1 2018 next week on Black Friday since I've heard from multiple people that the FFB is much improved. With F1 2016 I had to set the wheel weight all the way up to avoid oscillations on wet tracks.

-k
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