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Rank: Driver's Permit
#2201 Posted : Wednesday, June 13, 2018 11:46:47 AM(UTC)
I finally got Forza 6 Apex downloaded and dumped to compare the default and wheel profiles, and this is what I've seen. Again if this is in the previous 88 pages im sorry, but im still going with new blood looking into this isnt a bad thing.

First, Imgur lib for some quick screenshots and Forza Wheel Profiles: https://imgur.com/a/23n0iCT

I compared 4 wheels config files between Forza 7 and Forza 6: Apex,

1) Default Wheel
2) Fanatec CSV2
3) Logitech G920
4) ThrustmasterTMX

What I found, is possibly an explanation to why each wheel requires such different settings, and why the EmuWheel program is the best solution ATM due to it forcing forza to use the Default profile (Known constant) and adjust it accordingly.




Later I'm going to run some other calculations to try and simulate what the recommended wheel settings are vs the scaling of the wheels
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#2202 Posted : Wednesday, June 13, 2018 8:36:57 PM(UTC)
Quote:
theres not really a way to actually fix it


We'll see about that... Watch this space.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#2203 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2018 9:14:29 AM(UTC)
I have examined those profiles in the past and you are right in concluding that Forza EmuWheel uses the default profile and that it affects the FFB data being sent to your wheel (and in this case same data is being sent to every wheel that is using EmuWheel).

I would like to address the findings you mention though. Every parameter you list (that includes parameters which contain Vibration in it's name and also Spring and Damper) and indicate that there are different values set for them which might be even inconsistent doesn't actually say much. In fact neither of the parameters you mention has any bearing on actual RELEVANT forces applied to your wheel.
You see, Vibration effects (which are implemented in Forza games using Sine Wave Periodic effect type) have limited use (for example when you drive over kerbs the wheel will send FFB that causes your wheel vibrate or when you do a burnout, your wheel will vibrate). The implementation of those effects is very simplistic in Forza in comparison to other games, for example if you drive over a kerb, the rotation speed of the wheel that is on the kerb does not affect the frequency of vibration which results in the same feeling regardless of the speed your car has when driving over a kerb. Secondly, sine wave based effects do not change the actual position of your wheel (it basically does a small movement to the left then goes back and does the same amount of movement to the right and depending on frequency and total time of the effect, repeats it for an x amount of times if condition is met) they are not actually physics based (like Constant effect), but they are conditional in a sense that game sends them when certain criteria are met (e.g. you're driving on a kerb). To achieve a believable feeling of vibration, one has to take into account the capabilities of each particular wheel to determine how much force must be applied and what is the repeat frequency. For different wheels this might be completely different and if set up incorrectly vibration effects can in fact HINDER the physics based forces that are sent to your wheel (as they get in the way) and cause your wheel not to do what is supposed to do. Hence the tweaking of values for those parameters. Given the nature of vibration effects (they are not based on physics calculations although they are conditional) and the fact that they can mask/hinder what we could call "real" forces, we often disable them completely (at least when attempting to determine whether FFB that matters is functioning adequately). In short, different values for vibration effects, while they can affect FFB if they overpower or hinder main forces, they are not taken into account (read: are disabled) when testing if FFB is adequate, and different values for different hardware just indicates that there is some tweaking involved for each particular hardware to achieve these effects on top of main effects without masking them or hindering them.

Now in regards to Spring and Damper effects, you must understand that they are completely static (read: not physics based and not conditional) effects and although you can adjust them in most games, majority of people just disable them completely precisely because they are static in nature. Damper introduces a resistance when you try to turn your wheel. This again , depending on settings could result in dampening being stronger than the main forces and in result mask them or hinder them (e.g. a physics based force with a strength of X could reach the center in time T, but if there is dampening involved, one of two things will happen, either the time increases for wheel to reach the center or in extreme cases the force is "swallowed" by dampening). Spring, on the other hand, unconditionally returns your wheel to the center, which implies that it does so even when it shouldn't (for example, when your car is stationary and you turn your wheel to the left it shouldn't just return to the center). People sometimes apply spring effect to compensate for insufficient self aligning forces and arguably it can help in certain situations but in general it is not useful as it is not physics based and can potentially mess with physics based effects.

The reason why EmuWheel often succeeds in better FFB feeling is just because the parameters like vibration frequency are exposed for user to adjust. And both the minimum and maximum values for forces can be controlled while simultaneously allowing user to scale forces beyond what is available in game settings.

Given my comments, one can conclude that, what you presented so far is not really a mystery that begs to be solved and while FFB profile files can show that different wheels need different settings, they are not containing relevant information on how to actually fix FFB in FM7. I can assume those files look interesting to you (as it is the case for finding new things about anything we are passionate about), however this does not contribute to the existing discussion in substantive way. The implicit questions you raise in evaluating the data found in profile files can be easily answered by consulting documentation on how FFB works.

Edited by user Thursday, June 14, 2018 9:24:13 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Forza Wheel Support: https://discord.gg/8vC2zvz
Rank: Driver's License
#2204 Posted : Wednesday, June 20, 2018 12:08:17 PM(UTC)
Hi..can anyone please share some updated settings on Xbox OneX
With CSW 2.5. I'm running 446 firmware.

Thanks
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#2205 Posted : Thursday, June 28, 2018 6:27:08 AM(UTC)
Hello everyone, excited to share with you what FirstPlatoLV and myself have been working on for the last couple of weeks, we have successfully calculated working FFB using the Data out perameters. Its still WIP but the results are (IMO) are much better than vanilla FFB, and it will be highly customisable. Here is a video demonstration: New FFB For FM7 (WIP)
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#2206 Posted : Thursday, June 28, 2018 6:57:04 AM(UTC)
Just to get you excited, i'm going to share what is planned for future releases of Forza EmuWheel:

1. Completely new FFB system (improved main forces, effects that are not present in stock FFB. Some effects will now be dynamic, for example the effect when driving on curbs will be speed dependent unlike in stock FFB.).
1.1 Tremendous amount of FFB parameters that can be tweaked to achieve the feel you want.
1.2. Separate FFB profiles for each car that are automatically activated when selecting a car in game.

2. Automatic per car DOR switching and soft locking. Yes, you will be able to set your wheel to maximum DOR and EmuWheel will adjust everything automatically as soon as you change your car in menu. You will still be able to adjust and save values for each car if you are not satisfied with values we provide.

3. Support for every wheel (and every device that is recognized by Windows as a controller) out there in Forza Motorsport 7. That includes all Direct Drive wheels. In fact this is already working, I have quite a few OSW users who currently enjoy FM7 with stock FFB.

4. Best of all, it' s completely FREE!

If you have any questions, suggestions, would like to request a feature or just follow the development of Forza Emuwheel, feel free to visit my discord server: https://discord.gg/8vC2zvz
Forza Wheel Support: https://discord.gg/8vC2zvz
Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#2207 Posted : Sunday, July 1, 2018 4:42:32 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FirstPlatoLV Go to Quoted Post
Just to get you excited, i'm going to share what is planned for future releases of Forza EmuWheel:

1. Completely new FFB system (improved main forces, effects that are not present in stock FFB. Some effects will now be dynamic, for example the effect when driving on curbs will be speed dependent unlike in stock FFB.).
1.1 Tremendous amount of FFB parameters that can be tweaked to achieve the feel you want.
1.2. Separate FFB profiles for each car that are automatically activated when selecting a car in game.

2. Automatic per car DOR switching and soft locking. Yes, you will be able to set your wheel to maximum DOR and EmuWheel will adjust everything automatically as soon as you change your car in menu. You will still be able to adjust and save values for each car if you are not satisfied with values we provide.

3. Support for every wheel (and every device that is recognized by Windows as a controller) out there in Forza Motorsport 7. That includes all Direct Drive wheels. In fact this is already working, I have quite a few OSW users who currently enjoy FM7 with stock FFB.

4. Best of all, it' s completely FREE!

If you have any questions, suggestions, would like to request a feature or just follow the development of Forza Emuwheel, feel free to visit my discord server: https://discord.gg/8vC2zvz


They ( HELLO TURN 10 ) should give you a medal of honor, offer you a contract and ask you kindly to do the same magic for the Xbox users and the Forza games to come.

Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#2208 Posted : Sunday, July 1, 2018 9:10:48 PM(UTC)
We now have road feel, when driving in a straight line you can feel bumps and road surface changes. no longer can you sit back and have a sip of tea/coffee/beer/milk/whatever when your flying down the straits at 300+km/h, THE WHEEL IS NO LONGER LIMP/DEAD

FM7 WIP Custom FFB: Road Feel
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#2209 Posted : Monday, July 2, 2018 3:34:15 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Blue028 Go to Quoted Post
We now have road feel, when driving in a straight line you can feel bumps and road surface changes. no longer can you sit back and have a sip of tea/coffee/beer/milk/whatever when your flying down the straits at 300+km/h, THE WHEEL IS NO LONGER LIMP/DEAD

FM7 WIP Custom FFB: Road Feel


I assume it was a case of other forces been sent from the game muddying the signals? Or is there more to it?

Rank: Racing Permit
#2210 Posted : Monday, July 2, 2018 5:04:53 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Blue028 Go to Quoted Post
We now have road feel, when driving in a straight line you can feel bumps and road surface changes. no longer can you sit back and have a sip of tea/coffee/beer/milk/whatever when your flying down the straits at 300+km/h, THE WHEEL IS NO LONGER LIMP/DEAD

FM7 WIP Custom FFB: Road Feel


I second this: with oem ffb we did not have any signal report of road texture or bumps, now there is ffb through the Fx, Fy, Fz forces that act on the suspension, and we do not speak about rumbles or vibrations when you go through a kerb, we talk about those kicks that are felt on the steering wheel when you go through a hole or changes of elevation, even a jumps, and that of course move your steering wheel, in a realistic way and without losing control (or yes, depending on the dangerousness of the pothole and the speed at which you go). When you go with in hood camera and you see those vertical camera shakes, or you see those compressions of the springs in the telemetry, now you will notice it in ffb. Old emuwheel helped you amplify certain forces together, new emuwheel allows you to separate and adjust forces individually.

Ladies and gentlemen, if there was a game with FFB better than assetto, that is RaceRoom. Today I can say that the new emuwheel exceeds the FFB of Raceroom and that is not yet finished.

The wait will be worth it.

Now if Turn10 allowed FoV modifying, we would have the perfect SIM game, but nothing is perfect.
7700K 5,1GHZ
32 GB DDR4 4166MHZ
2x 1080Ti SLI
Asrock Z270 SuperCarrier
3x ASUS MG279 in portrait surround.

TS-XW Racer
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#2211 Posted : Monday, July 2, 2018 5:05:41 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Ialyrn Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Blue028 Go to Quoted Post
We now have road feel, when driving in a straight line you can feel bumps and road surface changes. no longer can you sit back and have a sip of tea/coffee/beer/milk/whatever when your flying down the straits at 300+km/h, THE WHEEL IS NO LONGER LIMP/DEAD

FM7 WIP Custom FFB: Road Feel


I assume it was a case of other forces been sent from the game muddying the signals? Or is there more to it?




No. Old versions of EmuWheel attempted to bring out so called hidden effects. But in regards to road feel there was nothing to bring out, as it is simply not calculated and sent to your wheel.
In new FFB instead of trying to fix the existing FFB by various workarounds, boosts etc, we are ignoring the FFB that is sent by the game altogether and calculate our own. Not only does it allow to introduce completely new (physics based) effects, but also allow user to fine tune various parameters for EACH of those effects, instead of being able to only adjust overall gain, vibration and the mislabeled minimum force and understeer.

Edited by user Monday, July 2, 2018 5:06:25 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Forza Wheel Support: https://discord.gg/8vC2zvz
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#2212 Posted : Monday, July 2, 2018 5:16:51 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FirstPlatoLV Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Ialyrn Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Blue028 Go to Quoted Post
We now have road feel, when driving in a straight line you can feel bumps and road surface changes. no longer can you sit back and have a sip of tea/coffee/beer/milk/whatever when your flying down the straits at 300+km/h, THE WHEEL IS NO LONGER LIMP/DEAD

FM7 WIP Custom FFB: Road Feel


I assume it was a case of other forces been sent from the game muddying the signals? Or is there more to it?




No. Old versions of EmuWheel attempted to bring out so called hidden effects. But in regards to road feel there was nothing to bring out, as it is simply not calculated and sent to your wheel.
In new FFB instead of trying to fix the existing FFB by various workarounds, boosts etc, we are ignoring the FFB that is sent by the game altogether and calculate our own. Not only does it allow to introduce completely new (physics based) effects, but also allow user to fine tune various parameters for EACH of those effects, instead of being able to only adjust overall gain, vibration and the mislabeled minimum force and understeer.


If that is the case then, at this point in time T10 really need to get into contact with you and hire you to work on the FFB in the game directly; because you obviously have a far better handle on things.

Is there any chance I could get hold of this new version of your software before it is released fully, as I would like to see how it works with my T300 and my G920. Blue did PM me about it a couple days ago, but never got a response to my reply. But then the PM system has been broken on the forums for quite some time.

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#2213 Posted : Monday, July 2, 2018 6:05:37 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Ialyrn Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FirstPlatoLV Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Ialyrn Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Blue028 Go to Quoted Post
We now have road feel, when driving in a straight line you can feel bumps and road surface changes. no longer can you sit back and have a sip of tea/coffee/beer/milk/whatever when your flying down the straits at 300+km/h, THE WHEEL IS NO LONGER LIMP/DEAD

FM7 WIP Custom FFB: Road Feel


I assume it was a case of other forces been sent from the game muddying the signals? Or is there more to it?




No. Old versions of EmuWheel attempted to bring out so called hidden effects. But in regards to road feel there was nothing to bring out, as it is simply not calculated and sent to your wheel.
In new FFB instead of trying to fix the existing FFB by various workarounds, boosts etc, we are ignoring the FFB that is sent by the game altogether and calculate our own. Not only does it allow to introduce completely new (physics based) effects, but also allow user to fine tune various parameters for EACH of those effects, instead of being able to only adjust overall gain, vibration and the mislabeled minimum force and understeer.


If that is the case then, at this point in time T10 really need to get into contact with you and hire you to work on the FFB in the game directly; because you obviously have a far better handle on things.

Is there any chance I could get hold of this new version of your software before it is released fully, as I would like to see how it works with my T300 and my G920. Blue did PM me about it a couple days ago, but never got a response to my reply. But then the PM system has been broken on the forums for quite some time.



You can visit the support chat: https://discord.gg/8vC2zvz (either through browser or from dedicated app (works on win/mac/phones, requires registering an account though). I'm there pretty much the whole time and I will help you set everything up.

Forza Wheel Support: https://discord.gg/8vC2zvz
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#2214 Posted : Monday, July 2, 2018 6:56:31 AM(UTC)
@Ialyrn, sorry I did reply to your message straight away but it seems my reply was sent to myself? Dodgy forum, again sorry about that
Rank: Racing Permit
#2215 Posted : Monday, July 2, 2018 10:35:49 AM(UTC)
Sounds very promising.

But, is there some ffb lag due to the extra way of processing and applying it?
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#2216 Posted : Monday, July 2, 2018 11:25:56 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: WeamDreaver Go to Quoted Post
Sounds very promising.

But, is there some ffb lag due to the extra way of processing and applying it?


To be perfectly honest there most likely is some added latency on paper. However it is so small that it is not perceivable when actually playing. At least none of my testers has even mentioned anything about feeling lag. Quite the opposite, because FFB is so much improved, everyone says that it feels much more responsive than the default FFB. Btw, no need to keep guessing or speculating, come to support chat (link in signature) and try it out yourself.
Forza Wheel Support: https://discord.gg/8vC2zvz
Rank: D-Class Racing License
 3 users liked this post.
#2217 Posted : Thursday, July 5, 2018 12:09:36 PM(UTC)
Guys, here is a sample EmuFFBSettings file with each parameter explained. Keep in mind that new FFB is still not complete and there will be a few more parameters added for you to adjust. Also, not all values are necessarily realistic in the sample file. If you feel like something is missing, let me know.

http://www.mediafire.com...s1416/EmuFFBSettings.txt
Forza Wheel Support: https://discord.gg/8vC2zvz
Rank: A-Class Racing License
 2 users liked this post.
#2218 Posted : Friday, July 6, 2018 1:34:49 AM(UTC)
And here is the graph where you can tune the pacekja type curve to what you want, fine tune the balance between mechanical torque and pneumatic torque then input the values directly into the Emu text file, we will set default curves for every car but you will be able to tune and save per car to whatever you like.

Edited by user Friday, July 6, 2018 2:22:02 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#2219 Posted : Saturday, July 7, 2018 11:15:21 PM(UTC)
Some questions:

- Having profiles per car is great, but I guess I manually have to load the profile each time I switch cars, right?
- What influence does the ingame FFB setting has with regards to what you developed with emuwheel? Do ingame settings interfere or will they be ignored completely? Do I need a standard ingame setting to make your emuwheel settings work as intended?
Rank: A-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#2220 Posted : Sunday, July 8, 2018 1:24:29 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: WeamDreaver Go to Quoted Post
Some questions:

- Having profiles per car is great, but I guess I manually have to load the profile each time I switch cars, right?
- What influence does the ingame FFB setting has with regards to what you developed with emuwheel? Do ingame settings interfere or will they be ignored completely? Do I need a standard ingame setting to make your emuwheel settings work as intended?


1. profiles per car should load automatically as soon as you start driving that car.
2. In game settings will be ignored completely

Rank: D-Class Racing License
 2 users liked this post.
#2221 Posted : Sunday, July 8, 2018 1:53:19 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Blue028 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: WeamDreaver Go to Quoted Post
Some questions:

- Having profiles per car is great, but I guess I manually have to load the profile each time I switch cars, right?
- What influence does the ingame FFB setting has with regards to what you developed with emuwheel? Do ingame settings interfere or will they be ignored completely? Do I need a standard ingame setting to make your emuwheel settings work as intended?


1. profiles per car should load automatically as soon as you start driving that car.
2. In game settings will be ignored completely



Just to clarify. In game settings are not ignored in the sense that we just don't care about them. It would be better to say that in game settings have no effect on EmuWheel FFB, since they are meant to alter the scale and some parameters for FFB that is sent by the game. Since we're in no way using the FFB that is sent by game, none of the changes to in game settings matter., because neither the game FFB nor any elements of it ever reach your wheel.

Edited by user Sunday, July 8, 2018 2:14:47 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Forza Wheel Support: https://discord.gg/8vC2zvz
Rank: A-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#2222 Posted : Tuesday, July 10, 2018 6:40:21 AM(UTC)
Just digging back into some of the original complaints about FFB in FM7

EpicEvan wrote:
I run SIM steering on a wheel no matter what (TX) and in the Forza 7 demo I noted a that's it's very awkward to centre the car after a drift in the Porsche. These where slow, controlled slides either at 900 or 720° of rotation. Hopped on Normal steering, no problem. Even hopped on a controller with SIM steering, no problem. It just felt that the communication between the wheel and the tarmac stopped when the car was centering with SIM steering on.


I truly believe this was/is an issue with the standard FFB, in the case of it just not being accurate enough in this situation and you pretty much had to learn how to ignore the FFB at this point in order to bring the car back without the dreaded 'sim twitch'. In fact in our very early versions when we started working on our own FFB we had a method that calculated lateral force by using mass, weight distribution and lateral acceleration, it worked great for normal driving but when you went sideways it produced similar issues that the stock FFB had because the lateral force acting on the car body is not the same as the force acting on the front tyres.

Now that we have calculated lateral forces from the tyre slip angle using pacekja curves we have a much more accurate recreation of what is happening directly on the wheels themselves, and it is extremely evident from the first time you drive it.


T10Driver wrote:
If the goal is raw trail the community is very much on the right track. Setting the damper and spring to 0 removes most of the tricks. Reduce rumble until you can barely just feel it. Reducing Force Feedback Understeer will increase the trail effects and contribute to oversteer feel. 0 is okay here but may be excessive for some. At 0 a good drifter should be able to link turns without touching the wheel, it'll just follow through. FFB Understeer is working, it’s just very subtle and masked by other forces.


On simulation steering it just wasn't possible to do this, even when you tried to tune the car to do precisely that. (wich I mension and show off in the video below)

Blue028 wrote:
if your planning updated to the demo (wich I think is a must at this point) perhaps you could introduce an 'experimental FFB' option in the advanced tab that is just raw trail data FFB with no scaling or any other tweaks.
I think this will be a good way for players and you to see what needs to be done, if everybody prefers the experimental over the existing then I think you'll have some answers as to where to take the FFB.

Blue028 wrote:
I'm starting to think it could be a physics related issue, simulation steering is one to one with the physics. when drifting holding a slide with corect steering angle and trying to let the wheel rotate on its own during the transition the car rotates way to fast, as fast as you'd expect when you apply more correction just before the transition in order to have a more agressive/faster transition. This results in having to unwind lock before the transition in order to make the car transition more controllably.

Blue028 wrote:
One more question, when you do your internal testing of FFB are all participants using simulation steering? I think that is a pretty important factor in judging the FFB

Because...
Blue028 wrote:
Normal steering has some sort of input manipulation that helps reduce massive weight transfers, wich helps keep the car more stable and easier to control. If one is testing FFB then this false sense of control could give someone a false sense of the FFB as the game is helping control the car and not the FFB.


I had in my head a good vision off what the FFB should be like and how it should be approached, and going into it not knowing how we would end up was a little bit frightening but I stuck by what I believed, in that Simulation Steering should be the test bed as I believed it was accurate/unaltered physics for wheels, and it was just THE stock FFB that really let it down.

In our process we started at the core of FFB with mechanical torque, once we found the best way to go about it (by using the slip angle data) it already felt like a very good start, then as we added pnumatic torque it started to come alive, as soon as I tested the first version with pnumatic torque (which even had a bug in it) it was already better than the standard FFB, far more responsive and much easier to read what the car was doing since we now had FFB dropping off BEFORE peak lateral force, which is realistic.

PTGBabyCow wrote:
The reason for the lack of center feel or track feel is the tracks in forza are completely smooth. They are not laser scanned at a high resolution (if at all, i highly doubt they are). Why would you feel bumps or undulations to the road that are not existent?


This just isn't true, since we have added road feel which is being calculated directly from the physics it is very obvious the tracks are not dead smooth, nurburgring has literally come alive now.

And we now also have dynamic vibration effects based on wheel rotation speed, much more options for vibration effects like road vibrations, kerb vibrations, vibrations for slip angle, slip ratio and ability the enable/disable rear wheels vibrations and balance between front to rear and slip angle to slip ratio AS WELL AS the ability to fine tune each of those with vibration start point, end point, min and max values.

With FFB almost complete, I want to give a HUGE thank you to FirstPlatoLV for his amazing efforts in making all of this possible, and everyone who has helped to test it and give very valuable feedback and helped improve it even further, it puts a massive smile on my face evertime I hear somebody give it praise. we never imagined it was going to be this good, it has been an honour and a privelige to be able to help out in this amazing effort.

Forza 7 FFB Update WIP [EmuWheel]

Edited by user Tuesday, July 10, 2018 6:56:10 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#2223 Posted : Thursday, July 12, 2018 2:30:46 AM(UTC)
KUDOs to the work you guys are putting into this. I can't wait to see (feel?) the final result. I'm wondering if the core problem with the FFB is it's implementation/mapping to wheels then, and not the core physics engine which you are pulling the data out of Forza now.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#2224 Posted : Thursday, July 12, 2018 7:01:39 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: beyondtool Go to Quoted Post
KUDOs to the work you guys are putting into this. I can't wait to see (feel?) the final result. I'm wondering if the core problem with the FFB is it's implementation/mapping to wheels then, and not the core physics engine which you are pulling the data out of Forza now.


Currently it is my understanding that the problem has nothing to do with physics, but with the default FFB. It could very well be that FFB that is produced by FM7 is produced by correct formulas and it could be mathematically correct. However it is very important to realize that while all wheels use a standardized FFB system, the same values feel completely different on different wheels and the cheaper the wheel, the less of the standard FFB strength/speed range is usable. It appears that other racing game developers know about this, that is why you can have a relatively cheap wheel feeling decent in other games. One can make a very interesting conclusion about FFB even in most hardcore racing simulators: if you have a low end wheel (like Logitech G series wheels), and if you seem to be getting what you consider to be great FFB in some game, then make no mistake, it is not because game has great physics and accurate FFB. Actually it is quite the opposite, it is because FFB is altered to overcome the physical limitations of your wheel so much, that what you get, has little to do with what physics should be producing FFB wise.
That being said there are things which are not simulated in default FFB, for example there is almost no road feel and vibration you get from kerbs for example, is just on/off , based on whether a tyre is on a kerb. Perhaps it was a decision that these effects are not worth spending too much time on and hence they weren't implemented. However this has nothing to do with physics or low quality tracks, since new FFB calculates those effects from DATA OUT (and they do feel quite nice), so it proves that tracks & physics are good enough to produce the effects on your wheel.

Forza Wheel Support: https://discord.gg/8vC2zvz
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#2225 Posted : Thursday, July 12, 2018 10:31:09 AM(UTC)
First impressions of Plato's new ffb? It makes a massive difference to the driving experience, its a lot more alive. Not to mention Plato's FFB makes it not only possible to drift with sim steering, it makes it feel very intuitive.
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