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Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#1 Posted : Monday, June 12, 2017 7:41:21 AM(UTC)
Forza 7 would be a really good chance to redesign the class system to something that makes more sense and promotes performance balance. There shouldn't be metas in a racing sim game. I love using the GT cars in 6 but over half of them are literally unusable since the online lobbies are dominated by the Aston and Porsche. Every class has one or two cars which outperform the rest on every track, and that kinda makes it redundant having hundreds of cars in a game where you can only use a few to be competitive.

The "PI" system that Forza uses was always meant to be a secondary system, used to further restrict what cars can compete in which lobbies. The categorical system, i.e, "Super Saloons" "Modern GT" etc, should be the main class system used for online lobbies and leagues, with the PI being used for classes that involve cars of varying performance levels.

It's laughable how Project Cars got it right the very first time, yet Turn 10 couldn't get it right after six. There needs to be some sort of revised system if Forza wants to come across as realistic and competitive. At the very least, bring back public custom lobbies so people can balance it themselves.
Rank: Driver's Permit
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#2 Posted : Thursday, June 15, 2017 8:31:46 PM(UTC)
Couldn't agree more on both accounts. Just go look at some of the leaderboards or race in pinnacle leagues. It sad they are bumping is up to 700+ cars but only a few will rule them all with the current system. Joinable public lobbies would solve a lot of issues but doesn't look like we getting them for 7. Too bad 👎
Rank: Series Champion
#3 Posted : Thursday, June 15, 2017 8:43:24 PM(UTC)
The main thing your missing is that Forza in not a SIM. (It's a Sim-Cade.) I do agree that the P.I. is a little off and using the same 3 cars over and over become no fun but understand thatForza was never meant to be a full sim in the first place might help you understand things a little better.
Rank: On the Podium
#4 Posted : Thursday, June 15, 2017 11:29:39 PM(UTC)
From the PI numbers I have seen of the cars in the E3 build, the PI system will be largely the same as it is in Forza Motorsport 6. Many of the cars had similar/identical values in stock trim, though obviously we haven't seen how tuning and upgrades affect that number yet.
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#5 Posted : Friday, June 16, 2017 1:54:15 AM(UTC)
More classes are what I'd like to see, a class should be separated by no more than 25 PI points. As someone who likes to drive standard cars, it's sad that if racing online, any car with a PI score ending in less than a 75 is going to have no chance and just doesn't get used.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#6 Posted : Friday, June 16, 2017 4:27:38 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: jfiler Go to Quoted Post
The main thing your missing is that Forza in not a SIM. (It's a Sim-Cade.) I do agree that the P.I. is a little off and using the same 3 cars over and over become no fun but understand thatForza was never meant to be a full sim in the first place might help you understand things a little better.


Just because forza is not a sim that dosnt mean it cant have a balanced class system. This would be best achived by using the division system already in place but even then t10 would have to try and balace the cars in each division rather than relying on the pi system that clearly dosn't work.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#7 Posted : Friday, June 16, 2017 6:28:11 AM(UTC)
If theres one thing the current PI system really needs is additional classes from S or R class onwards classes going up to 750, 850 and 950 would help as there as heaps of vehicles in the currant PI system sitting near to top of S but struggle in R or stuff sitting at the bottom of P class i.e the caparo

Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#8 Posted : Friday, June 16, 2017 6:32:48 AM(UTC)
I don't think that would help all that much. The PI system is so broken that even cars at exactly the same PI can have vastly different levels of performance.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#9 Posted : Saturday, June 17, 2017 5:49:10 AM(UTC)
The OP starts off by talking about how PI is not the only thing to be taken into consideration when trying to create a fair and balanced, competitive event.

Then, little by little, everyone forgets about what the OP said, and start acting like it should be all down to PI, nothings else to look at but that.

I made a post similar to the OP's a while back, too. Sorry, OP. I agree with you, 100%. But, you see what people do---they forget about what you said, almost immediately...

To go on what the OP said, there once existed another limitation that could be/was used to limit the cars eligible for an event, back in the previous volumes---FM2, FM3, FM4... The event might be "R Class", but it would be specifically restricted to "for GT1 cars only", or whatever. This "class/type/specification" field was searchable in the car dealership or your garage, so you could go in and see which cars were eligible for what events. You had a selection of GT3 cars, GT2, GT1, JGTC, GT500, DTM, V8 Supercars Australia, LMP2, LMP1...

Some of these things were dumped or dropped along and along...and they shouldn't have been. THESE are the limitations of which the OP spoke. THESE should be the focus of the hoppers, etc.

Forget about complaining about PI, broken as it may well be.

Get the hoppers and career events built around proper fields, and then worry about PI and slight fudging of numbers to further improve balance afterwards.

Edited by user Saturday, June 17, 2017 5:50:54 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#10 Posted : Saturday, June 17, 2017 7:43:13 AM(UTC)
I feel that with the new 700 cars wr should get classes like this imo:
GT1
GT2
GT3
GT4
GTLM
GTE
And if there are cars that don't fit in those categories but are GT cars (I believe the Maserati Granturismo is an example) then they should fall under the Modern GT category. As for PI, I've always said that they're should be 2 categories per class that would go like this:
S1 (700-750) -> S2 (751-800)
This would just improve the racing so much imo.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#11 Posted : Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:07:20 PM(UTC)
Turn 10 have already shown that they can make a decent online lobby with leagues. The ones which require you to use a specific car at a specific class are actually really fun and challenging since everyone is using essentially the same car, and relies more on driver and tuning ability than the performance of the car. It would be nice if Turn 10 could take popular leagues and make them temporary online hoppers, then make them permanent if they see enough traffic.

Thing is it wouldn't take much effort from Turn 10 to make the online lobbies focus more on the categories than the PI. This is something they could easily do compared to the massive amounts of feature requests that they get.

Edited by user Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:38:50 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#12 Posted : Monday, June 19, 2017 2:14:34 AM(UTC)
PI system is just fine. Yes, leaderboards are dominated by a few cars. So what? If you are a great driver, take the challenge and use a different car to get into the top 100. Just because one car is easy to push hard, does not mean in the hands of the right driver with the right tune any car could be competitive. Most people are sheep. They see a car in the top and pick that car because everyone else is doing it. Don't be a sheep. Pick something original and go for it.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#13 Posted : Monday, June 19, 2017 3:15:10 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Crimsoneagle73 Go to Quoted Post
PI system is just fine. Yes, leaderboards are dominated by a few cars. So what? If you are a great driver, take the challenge and use a different car to get into the top 100. Just because one car is easy to push hard, does not mean in the hands of the right driver with the right tune any car could be competitive. Most people are sheep. They see a car in the top and pick that car because everyone else is doing it. Don't be a sheep. Pick something original and go for it.


What you say might be true for the lower classes, but no matter how good a driver you are in r class you will not beat the lb cars simple as that. I think the sane can be said for p and x.

@Roger I dont think ppl have forgotten the op's points, I agree that divisions are the best way to go forward but it will still be flawed because the pi system is broken.

@Cervy the leagues were a blast but they are dead now. The modern gt hopper Is still going strong if this isn't on the list at fm7 launch then it's a huge over site. Division specific hoppers are great, the cycled production hopper is great fun even tho t10 have put a bunch of trolling track and car combos in there (cheers mechberg) but we just skip them so no 1 does the x class lotus round daytona oval. Joking aside mechberg if your reading this don't do that again it's a utter waist of a community chosen car and track combo
Rank: On the Podium
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#14 Posted : Monday, June 19, 2017 6:00:22 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Crimsoneagle73 Go to Quoted Post
PI system is just fine. Yes, leaderboards are dominated by a few cars. So what? If you are a great driver, take the challenge and use a different car to get into the top 100. Just because one car is easy to push hard, does not mean in the hands of the right driver with the right tune any car could be competitive. Most people are sheep. They see a car in the top and pick that car because everyone else is doing it. Don't be a sheep. Pick something original and go for it.


Doesn't apply on many tracks and classes. That is the problem.

When only the best in the world can barely do this, you know things need adjustment.
Rank: Racing Permit
#15 Posted : Monday, June 19, 2017 6:59:36 AM(UTC)
This post is 100% accurate! If only FM7 has it done 10x better, then maybe it'll be a different story. Let's hope...
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#16 Posted : Wednesday, June 21, 2017 10:35:51 AM(UTC)
I'd wish they'd use Forza 4's PI system. Class F-U for road and street cars, and leave R4-R1 for race cars. I'd also the earlier Forza games's event categories where you have events like Class D invitational, RWD Showdown, 8 Cylinder Faceoff, Impreza vs. Lancer Showdown, and McLaren F1 Spec-series.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#17 Posted : Wednesday, June 21, 2017 12:17:03 PM(UTC)
I think the lower classes PI is simply not as important. A PI of 200 and 250 are going to run pretty much the same, though the 250 maybe slightly faster. I think that's why they got rid of the E and F classes because the performance difference between all of them was so little that it didn't matter.

But in the upper classes, there is a world of difference between a 900 and a 925. Yet Forza still has 100 points between each PI class. So a 915 and a 968 end up racing together, even though there is no way the 915 can catch the 968.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#18 Posted : Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:43:12 PM(UTC)
I agree with some people on PI classes being broken up between road cars and race cars, as was once the case last-gen (forget which Forza). Even if a road car had the same PI as a race car, I want them in separate PI classes of a different letter scale. I like having R classes for race cars, like R3, R2, and R1, and then use other letters for production cars. I also like the idea of dividing PI up into narrower bands, like every 25 or 50 PI. It kinda sucks having 401 and 500 PI both being the same class.
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Rank: Series Champion
#19 Posted : Wednesday, June 21, 2017 4:35:02 PM(UTC)
while upgrades exist pure balance will be hard to achieve.

OP mentions project cars, omits no upgrade paths.
Talking to brick walls since 2007.
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Rank: R-Class Racing License
#20 Posted : Wednesday, June 21, 2017 5:02:14 PM(UTC)
I think PI is a flawed system. There's no real restrictions which allow missle cars, super slow handling cars and everything in between

Each class should have a restriction from 1 thing to everything. Minimum weight, tire width, power, aero package and whatever else can be restricted from upgrades given in the game. Although I know it's not that simple and I don't feel like fleshing it all out.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#21 Posted : Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:42:25 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DUST2DEATH Go to Quoted Post
while upgrades exist pure balance will be hard to achieve.

OP mentions project cars, omits no upgrade paths.


Upgrades certainly do make things complicated as they are now, but it wouldn't be hard to revise them to go with the category system. Production cars would have a certain set of upgrades based on what they come with stock in real life, so for example a BRZ would have a slew of upgrades in all areas, while a P1 would probably have a small selection of suspension and engine upgrades, since the car is so advanced on its own. Full-on race cars should not have any upgrades for them whatsoever, and that would be fine since they'd be in their own class so it would still be balanced. The whole aim of this is to get people driving essentially the same car, so if everyone is driving, let's say, in modern muscle cars, everyone would have similar builds so driver skill and tuning prowess would have greater importance.
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#22 Posted : Thursday, June 22, 2017 3:58:45 AM(UTC)
I would be happy if they do something against the op awd... It´s the same nightmare in Horizon 3 as it was in Forza 3. This completely ruined the multiplayer for me.
Rank: On the Podium
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#23 Posted : Thursday, June 22, 2017 5:18:52 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: x Ak1504 x Go to Quoted Post
I would be happy if they do something against the op awd... It´s the same nightmare in Horizon 3 as it was in Forza 3. This completely ruined the multiplayer for me.


Forza Motorsport titles haven't been dominated by AWD cars since Forza Motorsport 3. The key to building a strong car in these games instead is to convert it to RWD, reduce the weight as much as you can and find a good balance between power and grip.
Rank: On the Podium
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#24 Posted : Thursday, June 22, 2017 5:47:16 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Cerrax Go to Quoted Post
I think the lower classes PI is simply not as important. A PI of 200 and 250 are going to run pretty much the same, though the 250 maybe slightly faster. I think that's why they got rid of the E and F classes because the performance difference between all of them was so little that it didn't matter.

But in the upper classes, there is a world of difference between a 900 and a 925. Yet Forza still has 100 points between each PI class. So a 915 and a 968 end up racing together, even though there is no way the 915 can catch the 968.


I'm actually hoping for F class to come back. With all the cars in the game, I'd think there would be enough to fill that class. More opportunity to run cars with hardly any upgrades competitively against each other.

More high classes are needed. You're right about that. Too many neat cars go unused because they suck no matter what you do.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#25 Posted : Thursday, June 22, 2017 6:01:52 AM(UTC)
I'd rather they just group by Division which would by nature have cars that are of similar performance, then you won't need 1,000 PI classes to attempt to balance everything.

-k
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