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#1 Posted : Saturday, February 25, 2017 2:50:30 PM(UTC)
Hi - I have to use a non-adjust front aero (Forza) kit for my Aston Martin V12 Zagato Tune. (to keep the PI numbers down)

For my front Aero I chose the Forza non adjustable, I could of also chosen the Aston Martin Aero which is also non adjustable.

I like to get into the fine details when doing a full tune so its very frustrating that I can not get any info on what kind of downforce numbers I'm getting on these kits. There must me somekind of downforce? knowing can help me fine tune my rear aero as well as springs etc..

I spent 2 hrs on the Internet trying to find something.. Forza game only says it provides downforce.. nothing else..

Can anyone help Me ??

Thanks

Jamie
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#2 Posted : Saturday, February 25, 2017 7:59:00 PM(UTC)
most people just assume its the default value for the forza kits for that car . hope that helps
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#3 Posted : Saturday, February 25, 2017 11:23:57 PM(UTC)
Thanks for the response..

However That's my problem, I can't find any default value or any reference to it anywhere. Which is odd. I suppose 100lbs would be a reasonable "guess" ?.. I wonder if there was some way to reverse engineer it via the telemetry settings etc.. by looking at how much the springs are being affected at say 150 mph..

or I just give up and go get the adjustable kit and drop one of my other upgrades. Sucks because the Aero looks nice and I'm sure it has a sufficient downforce to get the job done. I just wish I knew what that was lol

J
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#4 Posted : Sunday, February 26, 2017 4:23:06 AM(UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean with Aston Martin aero kit as for me only stock (non-adjustable) and Forza Race aero kit (adjustable) are the only front aero kits available for the Zagato.

Anyway from my own testing the stock front aero kit provides 10lbs downforce.

Edited by user Sunday, February 26, 2017 4:24:16 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#5 Posted : Sunday, February 26, 2017 10:08:13 AM(UTC)
Interesting -

I'm on Forza 5 - sorry for any mis-representation.. The Forza 5 forum looks dead..

For me the Basic Front Aero kit (the 1st option of 3 - on the far left - has tool box graphic) for the Zagato is adjustable. But it cost PI, usually the first option for any piece of equipment does not cost PI..

Its the Kit with the cool looking cables. The Aston Marting and Forza options are non adjustable..

But at least you've given some number to work with. thanks? Could I ask how you tested so that I could perhaps do the same at my end..?
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#6 Posted : Sunday, February 26, 2017 10:55:47 AM(UTC)
I reversed engineered it from the spring rates. Whenever you add aero you have to compensate for added downforce by increasing springs.

So the amount of required spring rate increase tells you how much downforce was added.
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#7 Posted : Sunday, February 26, 2017 7:20:34 PM(UTC)
makes sense !
simple and logical..

thx!

J
Rank: On the Podium
#8 Posted : Wednesday, March 1, 2017 9:17:25 AM(UTC)
So little that you probably would never notice or change tune.

Get the car tuned to drive well for you, then add adjustable wings and drop downforce as low as it'll go and you'll have a really good car with likely no need to adjust tune further. Always smart to have a "fast build" when competition is high.
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#9 Posted : Wednesday, March 1, 2017 9:25:38 AM(UTC)
Well depending on car and how much aero you add you need to increase spring rates or you lose responsiveness, sometimes less noticeable sometimes more.
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#10 Posted : Wednesday, March 1, 2017 8:18:35 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post
Well depending on car and how much aero you add you need to increase spring rates or you lose responsiveness, sometimes less noticeable sometimes more.


I never said increase downforce. I said to run it at its lowest settings and you'll have a great car. Easy way to get more grip after finding a satisfactory no aero tune.

No point in increasing springs unless a numb feeling car is desirable. I've noticed some people like that. Tune is predictable but not really that fast. Now I'd weight bias is way up front, those springs definitely need work!
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#11 Posted : Friday, March 3, 2017 4:48:52 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post
Well depending on car and how much aero you add you need to increase spring rates or you lose responsiveness, sometimes less noticeable sometimes more.


I never said increase downforce. I said to run it at its lowest settings and you'll have a great car. Easy way to get more grip after finding a satisfactory no aero tune.

No point in increasing springs unless a numb feeling car is desirable. I've noticed some people like that. Tune is predictable but not really that fast. Now I'd weight bias is way up front, those springs definitely need work!

Sorry my bad.

All I want so say is that when you increase or decrease aero you should adjust springs as well to maintain the same level of responsiveness. If you increase aero without increasing springs the car needs more effort going through turns, so its becoming less responsive / too soft. If you lower aero without decreasing springs the car may become too responsive / too stiff.

Now how much you need to adjust spring rates obviously depends on amount of aero added or removed. But if your going from a non-aero tune to a full aero tune and vice versa for sure you have to adjust springs otherwise the car will not have the same level of responsiveness.

Edited by user Friday, March 3, 2017 4:50:35 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#12 Posted : Friday, March 3, 2017 8:00:12 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post
Well depending on car and how much aero you add you need to increase spring rates or you lose responsiveness, sometimes less noticeable sometimes more.


I never said increase downforce. I said to run it at its lowest settings and you'll have a great car. Easy way to get more grip after finding a satisfactory no aero tune.

No point in increasing springs unless a numb feeling car is desirable. I've noticed some people like that. Tune is predictable but not really that fast. Now I'd weight bias is way up front, those springs definitely need work!

Sorry my bad.

All I want so say is that when you increase or decrease aero you should adjust springs as well to maintain the same level of responsiveness. If you increase aero without increasing springs the car needs more effort going through turns, so its becoming less responsive / too soft. If you lower aero without decreasing springs the car may become too responsive / too stiff.

Now how much you need to adjust spring rates obviously depends on amount of aero added or removed. But if your going from a non-aero tune to a full aero tune and vice versa for sure you have to adjust springs otherwise the car will not have the same level of responsiveness.


False. You do not always have to. I've always noticed better responsiveness and better stability after coming from no aero. Not saying no aero was bad, slow or even had handling issues. The car could just flat out handle better. Usually the only adjustment I make is to increase rear sway bars a few clicks to really take advantage of the cars ability to grip in the rear better.

Your comments make sense, but in practice I've noticed cars with odd weight distributions and fwd cars being noticeable sensitive (in a bad way) to aero changes. A good bit of rwd cars dont seem to care. The only issue I have is figuring out if it's better having better handling via higher aero or better acceleration/top speed via lower aero.

That's the predicament I'm having with a 79 Camaro I have running top 100s (1 of 2 on the board) on a grip based rain layout that is flooded (bahahaha) with jeeps, cosmos, and other high grip cars. Didnt even touch the springs because it never needed it. Default settings for the win! I know the front setting is about 200lbs lighter than your calculator. Still baffles me why you would increase front springs 200-300lbs from defaults. This car would drive like a sack of bricks.
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#13 Posted : Friday, March 3, 2017 9:44:23 AM(UTC)
Umm what calc are you referring to?

I'm not aware that I did any calcs for a Camaro?

Edited by user Friday, March 3, 2017 9:49:58 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#14 Posted : Friday, March 3, 2017 10:36:17 AM(UTC)
Base calculation for springs using weight and weight distribution that spits out over 700lbs in front for a 3000lb car that's old. It's in your thread. 79 Camaro spits out a result pretty close to that.
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#15 Posted : Friday, March 3, 2017 10:43:21 AM(UTC)
Am i the only one that realized that these are arbitrary sliders which all have individual effects and do not require changes to other things to allow their changes to work? It's not like forza will tell you no, you can't do that with the tune (because it would literally break). You are not required to do anything to the springs when adjusting aero. If you begin bottoming out you may want stiffer springs or to adjust ride height but it is not required or necessary unless you are dragging to the point it is severely slowing you down. The numbers for the sliders mean nothing which is the reason you can take a base tune for a rwd vehicle based on slider locations and apply it to all rwd vehicles and it will be good. Maybe not perfect but will be pretty dang good. It doesn't matter what numbers forza puts as the min and max, they are still the min and max available, and even if you change another set of paremeters it does not change the min and max for another set of parameters.

If you don't believe what i am saying then why does min max bump and rebound settings work. I can tell you if you did that in real life you would brake the car or have the wonkiest handeling bounciest piece of garbage on the road, yet in forza this is pretty much optimal dampening settings.

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#16 Posted : Thursday, March 16, 2017 3:58:12 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post
Base calculation for springs using weight and weight distribution that spits out over 700lbs in front for a 3000lb car that's old. It's in your thread. 79 Camaro spits out a result pretty close to that.

You must refer to the Cougar tune then that's in my thread. It's true my muscle car tunes usually have stiffer front springs than stock however you cannot look on the springs alone but have to take into account other parameters like ARBs and dampers because they all affect cars handling.

For instance compared to your tuning style I run softer front ARBs and lower rebound for my muscle cars which probably kind of compensates for stiffer front springs.

The beauty of Forza is that there are lots of different ways to tune otherwise it would be pretty boring eh?



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#17 Posted : Thursday, March 16, 2017 4:15:18 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Am i the only one that realized that these are arbitrary sliders which all have individual effects and do not require changes to other things to allow their changes to work? It's not like forza will tell you no, you can't do that with the tune (because it would literally break). You are not required to do anything to the springs when adjusting aero. If you begin bottoming out you may want stiffer springs or to adjust ride height but it is not required or necessary unless you are dragging to the point it is severely slowing you down. The numbers for the sliders mean nothing which is the reason you can take a base tune for a rwd vehicle based on slider locations and apply it to all rwd vehicles and it will be good. Maybe not perfect but will be pretty dang good. It doesn't matter what numbers forza puts as the min and max, they are still the min and max available, and even if you change another set of paremeters it does not change the min and max for another set of parameters.

If you don't believe what i am saying then why does min max bump and rebound settings work. I can tell you if you did that in real life you would brake the car or have the wonkiest handeling bounciest piece of garbage on the road, yet in forza this is pretty much optimal dampening settings.

Don't agree on that. The sliders are not arbitrary and they do have a specific effect on cars handling and work in conjunction with other parameters. Otherwise tuning (and the underlying physics model) would be a non-deterministic affair. This is not my experience with Forza at all.

Of course you can slap the same base tune on all RWD cars but it wont give you a perfect tune as you stated yourself. But that's exactly what I'm referring to: achieving a perfectly balanced tune.

And no, you don't *have* to change e.g. springs when you change aero, you will still get a decent driveable car. But if you want the exact same handling like before you need to adjust springs, period.

In the end only lap time counts and a perfectly balanced car will always allow you to drive more consistently and push the car more. In that sense even subtle changes in tune / build can lead to slightly more unbalanced handling if the tune is not adjusted accordingly. Sometimes even a 0.5 lbs difference in springs can make a world of difference.

Edited by user Thursday, March 16, 2017 4:22:36 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#18 Posted : Thursday, March 16, 2017 5:55:23 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Am i the only one that realized that these are arbitrary sliders which all have individual effects and do not require changes to other things to allow their changes to work? It's not like forza will tell you no, you can't do that with the tune (because it would literally break). You are not required to do anything to the springs when adjusting aero. If you begin bottoming out you may want stiffer springs or to adjust ride height but it is not required or necessary unless you are dragging to the point it is severely slowing you down. The numbers for the sliders mean nothing which is the reason you can take a base tune for a rwd vehicle based on slider locations and apply it to all rwd vehicles and it will be good. Maybe not perfect but will be pretty dang good. It doesn't matter what numbers forza puts as the min and max, they are still the min and max available, and even if you change another set of paremeters it does not change the min and max for another set of parameters.

If you don't believe what i am saying then why does min max bump and rebound settings work. I can tell you if you did that in real life you would brake the car or have the wonkiest handeling bounciest piece of garbage on the road, yet in forza this is pretty much optimal dampening settings.

Don't agree on that. The sliders are not arbitrary and they do have a specific effect on cars handling and work in conjunction with other parameters. Otherwise tuning (and the underlying physics model) would be a non-deterministic affair. This is not my experience with Forza at all.

Of course you can slap the same base tune on all RWD cars but it wont give you a perfect tune as you stated yourself. But that's exactly what I'm referring to: achieving a perfectly balanced tune.

And no, you don't *have* to change e.g. springs when you change aero, you will still get a decent driveable car. But if you want the exact same handling like before you need to adjust springs, period.

In the end only lap time counts and a perfectly balanced car will always allow you to drive more consistently and push the car more. In that sense even subtle changes in tune / build can lead to slightly more unbalanced handling if the tune is not adjusted accordingly. Sometimes even a 0.5 lbs difference in springs can make a world of difference.


Thats complete nonsense and you know it. I didnt say the sliders did nothing. I said the numbers dont mean anything. The position of the slider is far more important than any number. How do you think raceboy or worm were able to pump out a decent tune for every single car in the game prior to release within like 2 weeks. Give that 2 hours a day of play time. I am sure it was probably more than that. But that gives him less than 2.8 minutes per tune. Even if you doubled it thats just over 5 minutes each tune. Do you honestly think in that amount of time that either of them did math or cared about the numbers? Not likely. They moved the sliders to a spot relative to the bar that consitently gives a good tune for the car type (engine location, drive type). Sure you can continue to tweak from there. but its not going to net you a lot of time. It is the same reason that minimum bumb max rebound or min max arbs work. Because the underlying physics arent that good and the sliders are just that, sliders relative to the car, but with no real world values. It's the same reason tyre temps are pretty much across the board the same regardless of car. And by the way, i have done many tunes as i am saying with no tweaking and moving the sliders based solely on right being stiff/less grip left being soft more grip and min max settings and have run #1's and top 10's.


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#19 Posted : Thursday, March 16, 2017 6:06:16 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post
Base calculation for springs using weight and weight distribution that spits out over 700lbs in front for a 3000lb car that's old. It's in your thread. 79 Camaro spits out a result pretty close to that.

You must refer to the Cougar tune then that's in my thread. It's true my muscle car tunes usually have stiffer front springs than stock however you cannot look on the springs alone but have to take into account other parameters like ARBs and dampers because they all affect cars handling.

For instance compared to your tuning style I run softer front ARBs and lower rebound for my muscle cars which probably kind of compensates for stiffer front springs.

The beauty of Forza is that there are lots of different ways to tune otherwise it would be pretty boring eh?





I tune for oversteer and you tune for understeer. That's about it from what I've gathered. My front ARBs are usually 10-18 and rebound varies from 7s-9s with the occasional rear over 10.

And Ive tried your settings on a 69 Camaro and the quick twitch went away. Felt like I had to brake early and turn early to get car around corner. It was sluggish however it did eliminate almost all oversteer. The car didn't feel bad per say but it definitely lost its ability to take corners aggressively. I had to compensate with other lines.

I'll look through thread about cougar. Can't remember that convo.

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#20 Posted : Thursday, March 16, 2017 6:16:27 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Am i the only one that realized that these are arbitrary sliders which all have individual effects and do not require changes to other things to allow their changes to work? It's not like forza will tell you no, you can't do that with the tune (because it would literally break). You are not required to do anything to the springs when adjusting aero. If you begin bottoming out you may want stiffer springs or to adjust ride height but it is not required or necessary unless you are dragging to the point it is severely slowing you down. The numbers for the sliders mean nothing which is the reason you can take a base tune for a rwd vehicle based on slider locations and apply it to all rwd vehicles and it will be good. Maybe not perfect but will be pretty dang good. It doesn't matter what numbers forza puts as the min and max, they are still the min and max available, and even if you change another set of paremeters it does not change the min and max for another set of parameters.

If you don't believe what i am saying then why does min max bump and rebound settings work. I can tell you if you did that in real life you would brake the car or have the wonkiest handeling bounciest piece of garbage on the road, yet in forza this is pretty much optimal dampening settings.

Don't agree on that. The sliders are not arbitrary and they do have a specific effect on cars handling and work in conjunction with other parameters. Otherwise tuning (and the underlying physics model) would be a non-deterministic affair. This is not my experience with Forza at all.

Of course you can slap the same base tune on all RWD cars but it wont give you a perfect tune as you stated yourself. But that's exactly what I'm referring to: achieving a perfectly balanced tune.

And no, you don't *have* to change e.g. springs when you change aero, you will still get a decent driveable car. But if you want the exact same handling like before you need to adjust springs, period.

In the end only lap time counts and a perfectly balanced car will always allow you to drive more consistently and push the car more. In that sense even subtle changes in tune / build can lead to slightly more unbalanced handling if the tune is not adjusted accordingly. Sometimes even a 0.5 lbs difference in springs can make a world of difference.


Thats complete nonsense and you know it. I didnt say the sliders did nothing. I said the numbers dont mean anything. The position of the slider is far more important than any number. How do you think raceboy or worm were able to pump out a decent tune for every single car in the game prior to release within like 2 weeks. Give that 2 hours a day of play time. I am sure it was probably more than that. But that gives him less than 2.8 minutes per tune. Even if you doubled it thats just over 5 minutes each tune. Do you honestly think in that amount of time that either of them did math or cared about the numbers? Not likely. They moved the sliders to a spot relative to the bar that consitently gives a good tune for the car type (engine location, drive type). Sure you can continue to tweak from there. but its not going to net you a lot of time. It is the same reason that minimum bumb max rebound or min max arbs work. Because the underlying physics arent that good and the sliders are just that, sliders relative to the car, but with no real world values. It's the same reason tyre temps are pretty much across the board the same regardless of car. And by the way, i have done many tunes as i am saying with no tweaking and moving the sliders based solely on right being stiff/less grip left being soft more grip and min max settings and have run #1's and top 10's.


Still it's not as simple as having the sliders on the same spot for similar drive type and engine location. As a simple proof show me a base tune (in terms of slider locations) that you can slap on a muscle car and modern GT race car (both FR) that gives you balanced handling for both.

I will say however that you can come up with a base tune per division. Which is what Raceboy or Worm likely did.
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#21 Posted : Thursday, March 16, 2017 6:17:40 AM(UTC)
^ thanks for assisting to prove my point swerve.

Off the top of your head you knew the range for the arbs and rebound. Because those numbers have no relevance to a real car. They are simply between 0 - 30 and 0-14 (cant remember off the top of my head) but regardless. You know as I know that in that general vacinity will get you dang close to where you want to be regardless of car.

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#22 Posted : Thursday, March 16, 2017 6:26:32 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post
Base calculation for springs using weight and weight distribution that spits out over 700lbs in front for a 3000lb car that's old. It's in your thread. 79 Camaro spits out a result pretty close to that.

You must refer to the Cougar tune then that's in my thread. It's true my muscle car tunes usually have stiffer front springs than stock however you cannot look on the springs alone but have to take into account other parameters like ARBs and dampers because they all affect cars handling.

For instance compared to your tuning style I run softer front ARBs and lower rebound for my muscle cars which probably kind of compensates for stiffer front springs.

The beauty of Forza is that there are lots of different ways to tune otherwise it would be pretty boring eh?





I tune for oversteer and you tune for understeer. That's about it from what I've gathered. My front ARBs are usually 10-18 and rebound varies from 7s-9s with the occasional rear over 10.

And Ive tried your settings on a 69 Camaro and the quick twitch went away. Felt like I had to brake early and turn early to get car around corner. It was sluggish however it did eliminate almost all oversteer. The car didn't feel bad per say but it definitely lost its ability to take corners aggressively. I had to compensate with other lines.

I'll look through thread about cougar. Can't remember that convo.


Actually I try to tune completely neutral, but this obviously lies in the eye of the beholder :-)

On a side note I refined my muscle car base tune compared to the days back. It now runs with 6.0 caster instead of 7.0 which was too high and probably contributed to the understeery feeling.

Can come up with a new tune settings for Camaro etc. if you like to compare.

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#23 Posted : Thursday, March 16, 2017 6:27:59 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post

Still it's not as simple as having the sliders on the same spot for similar drive type and engine location. As a simple proof show me a base tune (in terms of slider locations) that you can slap on a muscle car and modern GT race car (both FR) that gives you balanced handling for both.

I will say however that you can come up with a base tune per division. Which is what Raceboy or Worm likely did.


Ok try this i bet it gets you damn close to a good tune for any front engine rwd car in game.

28f/28r
2.0f/1.8r
0/0 toe
stock caster
20% (from left) front/ 35% Rear
Springs 45% front - 38% rear (from the left)
Rebound 11.5 F - 10.5 rear
Bump 2.0F - 1.5 Rear
Brakes preference but 52% - 150%
Aero - Front 50% - Rear - 25% (very circuit dependent)
Dif - Accel 60% - Decel 15-20%

Mind you i have no particular car in mind and havent picked up the game in nearly a year. But i bet this will get you pretty darn close and you wont need to change much as long as you have a decent build. Obviously if you have an insane power tune you are going to near to favor the rear and getting rid of that oversteer but for something with say decent grip and a 5.7 and a supercharger this will do well enough to jump in a lobby.



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#24 Posted : Thursday, March 16, 2017 6:35:26 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
^ thanks for assisting to prove my point swerve.

Off the top of your head you knew the range for the arbs and rebound. Because those numbers have no relevance to a real car. They are simply between 0 - 30 and 0-14 (cant remember off the top of my head) but regardless. You know as I know that in that general vacinity will get you dang close to where you want to be regardless of car.

It's a game in the end that covers cars from a Isetta all the way up to a Lotus F1. So obviously they had to do some simplification / unification to have a tuning system for all cars with the same parameter range.

Key question is do the the sliders represent relative values as you suggest or absolute values? Since I now have tuned very well over 500 cars I know for fact they represent absolute values. Meaning for instance for heavy cars you basically want to have higher ARBs and for light cars lower ARBs.

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#25 Posted : Thursday, March 16, 2017 6:40:53 AM(UTC)
Know for a fact? May i ask how you can prove this, other than it feels better with your mediocre hands behind the wheel?

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