Rank: Racing Permit
 2 users liked this post.
#1 Posted : Sunday, November 20, 2016 8:08:22 AM(UTC)
I'd just like to start this message by first saying that I feel very thankful for the recent opportunities T10 and ESL have given recently on Forza 6 via the RC series, and that all that follows is strictly in the most sincere effort to help shine light on current issues so that fitting tweaks can be made the make the remainder of Season 2 a success for all involved.


ESL have a long way to go when it comes to providing a larger platform for racing games, and the efficiency of administration behind these events is the key to attract bigger numbers. However, when TO's (Tournament Organisers) are inconsistent with their application of ELS rules to keep racing events clean and fair for all competitors, it not only leaves a foul taste in the Forza player-base and in-turn discourages the spectating audience to engage, spread and grow as a reputation for inproper management takes front stage. Does anyone else have an opinion on this?

There a many racing teams who run their own tournaments who's experience and expertise should be sourced to raise standards (e.g. PPS hosted their own 1v1 Tournament last month without a single issue in sight and are already onto their second 1v1 Series with over 60 players signed up!)

T10 and ESL: Make use of what's infront of you, before we all walk away for something else

Case in point as uploaded by everyone's South African bff, JSR Devon: https://www.youtube.com/...qeq_zn0M&app=desktop

Huge props to you Devon for addressing this on your channel so quickly, it may just make the likes of Mambusa reconsider their harsh and at times unprofessional efforts yesterday.

That said, roll on the RS6 showdown tonight A.K.A. Battleships 2!

Edited by user Sunday, November 20, 2016 8:11:19 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

JSR John
Japspeed Racing

// Finalist - Le Mans Esports Series 2020

https://youtube.com/c/JSRJohn
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#2 Posted : Sunday, November 20, 2016 10:42:02 PM(UTC)
I practice quite a lot (and I mean a lot) and work on ways to improve my racing skills and race craft. Missed the cut off for Consolation by half a tenth though and was a bit disappointed. Looking now at Devon's clip made me kinda wonder if I really have to strive for getting in. Racers like that should not be penalized, but disqualified for that leg on first offence and disqualified from series on second offence. Like IVORBIGUN said on Devon's You Tube channel, I rather loose or loose a place than to "cheat" my way in front. BUT it seems like ESL have their own ways of doing things. Looking away or "there's too many incidents to look at" seems their only way.

Seriously hope DQ is still on the table for that !!!

Better than always being right is knowing when to shut up
_______________________________________________________________________
FH, FM3, FM4, FM5, FH2, FM6, FM7
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#3 Posted : Monday, November 21, 2016 3:43:33 AM(UTC)
Saturday night was very disapointing for me, I encouraged Lee to put a protest in after he thought nothing would be done. Me like a fool said "they will dq him for that" but the protest was denied and the result was upheld. Why you might ask. Mambusa told Lee because it only happened twice it was no reason to dq. Obviously Lee was furious and so was I. On top of that they only allowed 5 mins to upload the clips extended to 10 mins because his Internet runs at less than 500kpbs upload speed.

Basically esl are under pressure to get things wrapped up in a timely manner. that on top of multiple no shows made the amount of support tickets being subbmitted unmanageable by the esl staff and mistakes/hasty disissions were made.

Imo mambusa got this wrong and needs to apologise to Lee for not dealing with his protest in a accurate way that reflects the rules of the championship. If this sort of thing isn't dealt with then it gives the green light to agressive driving that breaks the rules
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#4 Posted : Monday, November 21, 2016 8:33:07 AM(UTC)
I agree with all of you, but I must also say that complaining here won't do anything. It's not turn 10, it's esl and it's also the people competing in it. It's only season 2, it still needs a lot of time to grow and learn. We can't just throw all of it on esl. If all the players would just respect the rules and have good racing morals there wouldn't be a problem. At the moment, there is so much rule breaking esl can't keep up. It's unfair, and I think esl needs more people on their staff to moderate. But like I just said, it needs time to improve. They are learning, and so are lot of people who are new to this type of competition.
Hi 😛
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#5 Posted : Monday, November 21, 2016 8:46:29 AM(UTC)
I don't think it's that widespread. There's the odd player each week who gets treated unfairly but because it's such a small community (the top 300-ish who can qualify each week, not the whole Forza community) and we all know each other it only takes a couple of bad calls to colour our perceptions, when it actually seems to me like the vast majority of players have decent experiences most of the time. I know I have.

There's room for improvement on the ESL admin side for sure, but moderating that many 1v1s when they're taking place under time constrains over a single night, in a game where sportsmanship is required but basically subjective (unlike a game like Rocket League where there's almost no scope for disputes), is always going to throw up the occasional dose of hard luck.

Edited by user Monday, November 21, 2016 8:47:27 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#6 Posted : Monday, November 21, 2016 9:13:37 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: V1R Wizard Go to Quoted Post
I agree with all of you, but I must also say that complaining here won't do anything. It's not turn 10, it's esl and it's also the people competing in it. It's only season 2, it still needs a lot of time to grow and learn. We can't just throw all of it on esl. If all the players would just respect the rules and have good racing morals there wouldn't be a problem. At the moment, there is so much rule breaking esl can't keep up. It's unfair, and I think esl needs more people on their staff to moderate. But like I just said, it needs time to improve. They are learning, and so are lot of people who are new to this type of competition.


I agree, it's certainly not T10 and guess you're right, it wont serve purpose per se for getting it resolved. BUT voicing concerns here adds in showing community rejection to the "new generation".

As for esl, well I can appreciate the fact that they must have a lot to do with so few staff, but the matter was not one of being "mislooked" or insufficient staff or inexperienced staff. It was reported, looked at and dismissed with an answer that it only happened twice and does not justify action. In my book the conduct (in Devon's clip) shows utter disrespect on a few occasions and I struggle to see how it can be condoned to the detriment of another player.

Better than always being right is knowing when to shut up
_______________________________________________________________________
FH, FM3, FM4, FM5, FH2, FM6, FM7
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#7 Posted : Monday, November 21, 2016 9:28:11 AM(UTC)
Rank: Racing Permit
#8 Posted : Monday, November 21, 2016 4:29:25 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: V1R Wizard Go to Quoted Post
I agree with all of you, but I must also say that complaining here won't do anything. It's not turn 10, it's esl and it's also the people competing in it. It's only season 2, it still needs a lot of time to grow and learn. We can't just throw all of it on esl. If all the players would just respect the rules and have good racing morals there wouldn't be a problem. At the moment, there is so much rule breaking esl can't keep up. It's unfair, and I think esl needs more people on their staff to moderate. But like I just said, it needs time to improve. They are learning, and so are lot of people who are new to this type of competition.


I did infact post the same topic on the ESL Forums, but it felt worthwhile to have a thread on this site also as it garners more views from Forza players and would help get the conversation moving as a whole. Here's a link to the thread on ESL for those interested: http://forum.eslgaming.c...broken-rule-admin#latest

I agree Wizard that it's still very much early days for the likes of ESL and as such the entire competitive community can't expect events of perfect quality as of immediately. That said, I remain firm on the opinion that its the Tournament Organiser (for any sport, let alone game) to set the precedent for rule enforcement and the reality is that whatever poor sporting/cheating behaviour that ESL staff choose not to penalise, they consequently permit said behavioir to be exploited by others. They are evidently short of hands and I've recently considered volunteering support, time permitting. At the very least, ESL making a public response as linked by Zedeeyen is a move in the right direction and yet it begs a serious question: should competitors with slow internet speeds such as LeeCampbell suffer such tough time constraints to load clips/replays following aptly timed protest tickets? What's the optimum approach to solving such a problem?
JSR John
Japspeed Racing

// Finalist - Le Mans Esports Series 2020

https://youtube.com/c/JSRJohn
Rank: A-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#9 Posted : Tuesday, November 22, 2016 2:00:40 AM(UTC)
The best solution is forza tv. Esl staff need to be able to log onto an xbox and view a full reply. In extreme circumstances xboxclips.com has every1s clips in 1 place by simply searching the gamertag. Less speed more consistancy is what's needed from the esl staff. I agree with wizard it's new and there learning, I wish them alot of success after all I really enjoy participating and my races have superb.

I appricate esl's response and I don't belive it justifys the way Lee was treated. More could of been done to help him but my advice was ignored by esl staff and not enough time was given.
Rank: On the Podium
#10 Posted : Tuesday, November 22, 2016 6:45:03 AM(UTC)
The issue is known so all we can do is wait and see if it gets better. I do think the guy who drove dirty against Lee should get a firm warning if not banned from the last round.

I went against a guy who didn't give me room at times in 1v1 and went against another who cut laguna every race because he thought it was ok to.

However I never reported because overall the racing was great with those two. Just minor errors.

What that guy did to Lee is inexcusable and deplorable.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#11 Posted : Tuesday, November 22, 2016 8:26:02 AM(UTC)
It's done now as far as esl are conserned, the responsibility to prove the result is firmly put with the drivers and I agree. Unless the drivers involved are having issues nothing is black and white and each case needs to be looked at individually.

But we will see what comes this weekend. I do belive this is isolated like zee has said

Edited by user Tuesday, November 22, 2016 8:49:53 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#12 Posted : Tuesday, November 22, 2016 8:37:41 AM(UTC)
It'll be worse this week because very few players are going to be able to race the R18 safely, and even small mistakes will be spectacular.

If you do get screwed unfairly all you can do is save a 5 min Game DVR clip at the end (which should cover the whole race) and get your protest in ASAP. The earlier it's lodged the better chance of ESL considering it.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#13 Posted : Tuesday, November 22, 2016 9:29:06 AM(UTC)
Hay cortans won't like that at all
Rank: Driver's Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#14 Posted : Tuesday, November 22, 2016 11:14:53 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: GTR TYSKlE Go to Quoted Post
T[...] In extreme circumstances xboxclips.com has every1s clips in 1 place by simply searching the gamertag. Less speed more consistancy is what's needed from the esl staff [...]


We agree to that, but you have to post the link, it is not our job to search for it.

We are learning, it's new for us, also this is new for me. I was the Staff Head in FIFA before, we had big tournaments, but in Forza, it is different, because the Community is much bigger (my opinion) and hold strong together (which is really nice to see).

It feels like a coursing at the moment to be honest. It is not nice and all just because you dont understood the circumstances.

I wont say you are completely wrong, but in this case, you dont see it from the right point.

I quote our news:

"The match was officially started at 18:40 CET and after an hour nico reported that he won. As the result was not confirmed by his opponent and we did not want to have a huge delay the result was confirmed by the staff 10 minutes after it was reported, which is the normal period we are closing matches in all other tournaments.
Then at 20:06 CET Campbell opened a protest saying that his opponent broke the rules, but he did not provide any proof. At 20:10 CET the staff replied and told him he has 10 minutes to provide proof. At 20:17 CET Campbell provide a video only showing nico cutting the corner twice, which is not enough for a disqualification. Based on these facts the staff took a decision. There were over 35 minutes from the end of the match until the video was provided, which is enough time to provide enough proof."

That is what was happening, the news is written by my Community Manager.

I hope, you can understand the complete situation and we can work together again.
I also want to apologize to the things i said in some Tickets, it is embarassing, i have to stay calm and friendly, but it was the situation.

Best regards,
MAMBUSA'
ESL Forza Staff Head | @MambusaDE on Twitter
Rank: A-Class Racing License
 2 users liked this post.
#15 Posted : Tuesday, November 22, 2016 12:49:29 PM(UTC)
Thanks for replying to us mambusa and I'm very sorry if you felt anything I personally said was over the top. As you said the community is strong and we stick together (most of the time) and sometimes things like this can be blown out of proportion while trying to raise awareness of the situation. I will pass on your words to lee, am sure he will understand that this is just a bump in the road on the way to bigger and better things. It's also appreciated that esl as whole have taken this very seriously and im confident that mambusa's experince in holding tournaments online has been and will be a huge benifit in future events.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#16 Posted : Wednesday, November 23, 2016 1:21:29 AM(UTC)
What didn't help last saturday was the amount of no shows. For example one person I was supposed to race was at work!

The cause of this was simple. Many thought they had not qualified for the consolation cup due to their qualifying position. However what they didn't take into account is a combination of some already having qualified for the Grand Finals and some people who did not sign up for the event. So a leaderboard position of say 180th may be enough to qualify.

Personally I really enjoyed last saturday and managed to finish in the top 16 of the consolation cup thus winning a cash prize.



Rank: Driver's Permit
#17 Posted : Wednesday, November 23, 2016 2:12:14 AM(UTC)
Thanks for the nice words GTR TYSKlE. If Cambpell wants, i can talk to him in private.

@PPS IVORBIGUN: The no shows are everytime a problem, but what should be do? I know, i forgot to write a Membermail when we have placed the players, i should'nt forget that, but i have. Im sorry, but it doesn't make a big different. In Week 1 i wrote a Membermail and we had a lot of No Shows as well.

But yes, what you wrote is true. There are allready qualified players and also players, who are not allowed to compete (e.g. because of no replay or wrong gameaccount entered in the ESL)

I will take it as Feedback and write a Membermail when we placed the players (1-2 days before saturday) and another one, a reminder on saturday.

Best regards,
MAMBUSA'
ESL Forza Staff Head | @MambusaDE on Twitter
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#18 Posted : Wednesday, November 23, 2016 4:57:04 AM(UTC)
Maybe you could require Sign-In, Mambusa? So qualifiers get an email telling them they've made the cut, but if they don't sign by a certain time their opponent gets an email telling them they've been progressed a round so they don't sit and wait for someone who isn't going to show.

Also, a way for players to withdraw after they've registered would be useful, so that anyone who knows they can't make the 1v1s can pull out and let their slot go to someone else. As you know, I did this last week, but I had to raise a support ticket and ask you to do it manually. On week 1 this didn't occur to me so I messaged the guy I was drawn against to tell him I couldn't make it and entered a 2-0 win for him, but then I had to watch to see who I was drawn with in the Loser's bracket to do the same thing. I can kind of understand why some player's can't or don't bother and just don't show up.
Rank: On the Podium
#19 Posted : Wednesday, November 23, 2016 5:18:25 AM(UTC)
I've noticed usually if you're in the top 200-210 and properly registered, you qualify. I've been around 160 on leaderboards twice and got around the 80th seed in consolation cup.

I remember last week one guy around the 100th seed default lost round 1, and default won in the losers bracket because the other player in loser bracket had appropriately disqualified himself. I found that to be pretty funny.

With a tournament this big, no shows will always be an issue.

If it's possible, a group xbox live message (a new feature for xbox) could be sent to those who have qualified. I rarely check my personal emails but check xbox messages every day. I'm sure others are similar.

An option to back out prior to tournament and have back up players who barely missed the cut to take the spot would be cool too.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#20 Posted : Thursday, November 24, 2016 3:56:59 AM(UTC)
@Zedeeyen: It's not like, just drive in the leaderboard, you have to Sign-up on the ESL and enter your Gameaccount (Xbox ID). You should know, that you will drive, in case you qualified, so there is no need to change the system to be honest.

Yes, you opened a Support ticket and we replaced you. That's the best way to do it, if you are not able to drive on saturday.

@RPM Swerve: True, it can happen, it's because, not everyone in the Leaderboard is eligible to drive in our cup, e.g. you are not registered, you haven't entered a Gameaccount or a incorrect one, you haven't uploaded a replay in the Leaderboard or you come from a Country, what is not Supported by Xbox Live.

I will take a look at this feature, thanks for the Info!

Best regards,
MAMBUSA'
ESL Forza Staff Head | @MambusaDE on Twitter
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#21 Posted : Friday, November 25, 2016 2:19:48 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MAMBUSA18 Go to Quoted Post
@Zedeeyen: It's not like, just drive in the leaderboard, you have to Sign-up on the ESL and enter your Gameaccount (Xbox ID). You should know, that you will drive, in case you qualified, so there is no need to change the system to be honest.


Well yeah, but there's up to 3 weeks between sign-up and the 1v1s. That's plenty of time for events to affect your availability (or your interest).

Quote:
Yes, you opened a Support ticket and we replaced you. That's the best way to do it, if you are not able to drive on saturday.


That's fine, I'm happy to do that, but the question wasn't about making it easier for me to withdraw, it was about reducing the number of no-shows for the guys taking part. Self-evidently many of the players who couldn't make the 1v1s didn't contact you to ask to be removed, they just didn't show up. I'm just suggesting that if it was made really simple to withdraw, more players would do that and the number of no-shows would reduce.

Edited by user Friday, November 25, 2016 2:20:35 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#22 Posted : Friday, November 25, 2016 6:49:55 AM(UTC)
I agree with zee

The system needs to either penalize people for not showing or make it benificial for people to pull out. My situation for saturday is if my children are happy at 1700 on Saturday night I will be racing if they are not happy I will miss the race. If I was penalised for not showing I would pull out before hand. But at the moment I can try my luck
Rank: Moderator
#23 Posted : Friday, November 25, 2016 7:01:52 AM(UTC)
I just hope ESL are working closely with T10 and Beam.....and or twitch to implement changes to FM7 that will make hosting, running and broadcasting future Esports Forza events better and fairer. Bearing in mind this is only year two, I think things are going pretty well and the events make great viewing.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#24 Posted : Friday, November 25, 2016 5:24:48 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: WindsweptDragon Go to Quoted Post
I just hope ESL are working closely with T10 and Beam.....and or twitch to implement changes to FM7 that will make hosting, running and broadcasting future Esports Forza events better and fairer. Bearing in mind this is only year two, I think things are going pretty well and the events make great viewing.


Not often we agree on something but your absolutely right. I have enjoyed watching on twitter any improvment there from the streams to FM7 will be very welcome. I particulary like it when the casters make mistakes and they have a love/hate thing going on its very funny. I belive ps4 have esl integrated into the dashboard or the game itself. Maybe something like that is on the cards in the future

Notification

Icon
Error