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#176 Posted : Friday, August 12, 2016 10:45:56 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Shaggy SoCal Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FISH AAC Go to Quoted Post
I've got so many cool ideas that im sure are easily achievable for this franchise but no where to submit them.


Best place would be the Wishlist Thread if you haven't posted there already.
http://forums.forzamotor...-Features-Wish-List.aspx



thanks
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#177 Posted : Friday, August 12, 2016 10:51:22 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FISH AAC Go to Quoted Post
Totally agree mate. Turn 10 should have a good feedback program so they totally understand what the players want. It shouldn't just consist of the leaderboard divas though, it should be a broad mix of different abilities and ages.
I know they need to appeal to the casual gamer for maximum profit but I think forza 4 proved it's possible to please almost everyone.
I've got so many cool ideas that im sure are easily achievable for this franchise but no where to submit them.



Yeah it seems with Forza 4 everybody was happy, but for some reason T10 chose to not add custom public lobbies anymore. That would make so many Forza fans happy. I think it's once again to not scare away the casual players, because many of them would get kicked from many lobbies after a few races. This might be frustrating for them and T10 might be afraid they abandon the franchise again. Just speculating...

Edited by user Friday, August 12, 2016 10:51:54 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#178 Posted : Friday, August 12, 2016 11:18:25 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: rich1e I Go to Quoted Post
@I Super GT I
I understand you want to defend your friends and that's fine. You're a nice person and an absolute clean racer, but your arguments are invalid. Bringing up the F1 Hockenheim and saying that everyone was just fine with the T1 track limits is just wrong --> http://www.motorsport.co...change-at-turn-1-803718/ It was more a controversy, and you can't compare the situation with the 1st chicane issue at Monza because at Hockenheim they were discussing whether using a little bit of the run off areas or not. At Austin the drivers also used the run off area and went incredibly wide, and that also caused some kind of controversy, so if you say everyone was just fine with the decisions made by the respective race directors is just not true.


Okay, maybe an exaggeration. Ferrari wanted to use all of the track. Ferrari protest everything. Let's face it, the majority of people got on with it. It's not like 99% of fans were up in arms.

Originally Posted by: rich1e I Go to Quoted Post

You won't find an example in RL that justifies the 1st chicane debacle.


That's because real life organisers have a better grasp of deciding track limits. The point that 'Organisers determine the track limits' still stands however. There is no real life example but the point still stands.

Originally Posted by: rich1e I Go to Quoted Post

The thing is, I've watched top drivers' streams and I've watched TURN races and it's a fact that cutting is normal to hold off the guy behind you. That is a fact. Even people in chat were mentioning it, so "everyone wants to stay on the tarmac" is just not true.


On the whole I think it's true. Also, racing is different to hotlapping. Hotlapping is more about maximising the given track to extract the best possible lap. In this respect, I firmly believe people would rather have better defined limits where they have to stay on track.

If people are cutting corners during a race, then the following driver should report it to the TORA officials afterwards if it goes against any of the TORA rules.

Originally Posted by: rich1e I Go to Quoted Post

How can you expect the average casual player to be respecting what's considered to be general consensus in racing (fair play, respect for each other and for track limits) after watching the top replays?


I wouldn't expect them to respect it. Most people would assume that they are at the top of the leaderboards because they cut but they probably won't be understanding this whole discussion to the level that we have been discussing it. In that, when you mix high end elite competition with poorly defined limitations, then you get what they perceive as cheating, but it isn't actually cheating.


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#179 Posted : Friday, August 12, 2016 11:27:12 AM(UTC)
yeh, anything that separated the casual first corner crashers from those who want a good race would be welcome. Online is a mess. I'd love to see a separate hardcore mode, no assists, restricted to cockpit, (as long as they bring in adjustable FOV) min of 10 laps,qualifying session. Those things alone would frighten most of them off to a standard lobby.
Anyway wrong thread, someone's gonna shout at me in a minute
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#180 Posted : Friday, August 12, 2016 6:38:25 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FISH AAC Go to Quoted Post
yeh, anything that separated the casual first corner crashers from those who want a good race would be welcome. Online is a mess. I'd love to see a separate hardcore mode, no assists, restricted to cockpit, (as long as they bring in adjustable FOV) min of 10 laps,qualifying session. Those things alone would frighten most of them off to a standard lobby.
Anyway wrong thread, someone's gonna shout at me in a minute


There's a hopper for exactly what you want, and it's not really a hopper, cause it's on iRacing 😜. TBH forza is always going to be a rather casual sim and I don't think we'll ever see qualifying outside of organized events like in TORA
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#181 Posted : Friday, August 12, 2016 7:57:48 PM(UTC)
These rules need to apply to the qualifiers too. Otherwise ESL and Turn10 are saying it's ok to cheat to get into the final as long as you don't cheat when you get there.

Quoted from the ESL rules section of the FRC --

3.1.5. Track behaviour

As the ForzaRC is a serious racing championship, on track behaviour has to be in line with the sportsman-like behaviour and appropriate clean racing. Therefore we will punish following behaviour but not only limited to:

Purposely crashing and corner-cutting, vulgarity in game chat, attempting to cause disruptions to your own benefit in online lobbies, etc.

2 wheels have to remain in between the white lines defining the track. Curbs are NOT part of the track, so 2 wheels have to be on the tarmac at every time. This does not apply to situations in which it happens occasionally but as soon as this is your racing line or you get a advantage with doing it, it can be penalized.

You are allowed to block a line in front of a corner once, plus getting back to your racing line. Zigzag style is not allowed

That behaviour can lead to disqualification or other penalties, depending on the situation.

Edited by user Friday, August 12, 2016 7:58:19 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

The ability to speak, does not make you intelligent.
- Qui-Gon Jinn
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#182 Posted : Friday, August 12, 2016 11:30:33 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: I Super GT I Go to Quoted Post
On the whole I think it's true. Also, racing is different to hotlapping. Hotlapping is more about maximising the given track to extract the best possible lap. In this respect, I firmly believe people would rather have better defined limits where they have to stay on track.

If people are cutting corners during a race, then the following driver should report it to the TORA officials afterwards if it goes against any of the TORA rules.



Well I don't know why people want to separate hotlapping from racing. In a TORA race you wouldn't say qualifying and race are 2 different things. In both cases it's about getting around the track as fast as you can, and of course the same rules have to be applied. If you took similar lines during a TORA qualifying you would be DQ'd immediately. Hotlapping and racing are basically the same thing. The only difference is obviously that in hotlapping there's no traffic. So why on earth is hotlapping different? In this case the rivals event IS technically a qualifying round.

Again, I understand you want to defend your friends and surely everyone has a different definition of friendship. In my view friendship doesn't consist only in laughing and agreeing on everything all the time, but also in honesty and telling your friend when he's wrong. I think in principle you know exactly that it's just wrong and that it goes against everything racing. There's no excuse for such behaviour and normally ESL should reset the whole thing because the cutting debacle is affecting their reputation too.

Edited by user Saturday, August 13, 2016 12:53:53 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
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#183 Posted : Saturday, August 13, 2016 12:30:38 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: TUS ForceOne Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FISH AAC Go to Quoted Post
yeh, anything that separated the casual first corner crashers from those who want a good race would be welcome. Online is a mess. I'd love to see a separate hardcore mode, no assists, restricted to cockpit, (as long as they bring in adjustable FOV) min of 10 laps,qualifying session. Those things alone would frighten most of them off to a standard lobby.
Anyway wrong thread, someone's gonna shout at me in a minute


There's a hopper for exactly what you want, and it's not really a hopper, cause it's on iRacing 😜. TBH forza is always going to be a rather casual sim and I don't think we'll ever see qualifying outside of organized events like in TORA


Good point. The ease of gaming on consoles has always appealed to me but I'd probably be more satisfied over on PC. I just don't see why they can't divide it up a bit more to keep us away from the casuals.
What is TORA?
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#184 Posted : Saturday, August 13, 2016 4:23:31 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FISH AAC Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TUS ForceOne Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FISH AAC Go to Quoted Post
yeh, anything that separated the casual first corner crashers from those who want a good race would be welcome. Online is a mess. I'd love to see a separate hardcore mode, no assists, restricted to cockpit, (as long as they bring in adjustable FOV) min of 10 laps,qualifying session. Those things alone would frighten most of them off to a standard lobby.
Anyway wrong thread, someone's gonna shout at me in a minute


There's a hopper for exactly what you want, and it's not really a hopper, cause it's on iRacing 😜. TBH forza is always going to be a rather casual sim and I don't think we'll ever see qualifying outside of organized events like in TORA


Good point. The ease of gaming on consoles has always appealed to me but I'd probably be more satisfied over on PC. I just don't see why they can't divide it up a bit more to keep us away from the casuals.
What is TORA?

http://forums.theonlineracingassociation.com
Probably the leading source of competitive online racing in forza. They have everything from endurance racing to spec classes! You should definitely check it out as new series will be starting soon.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#185 Posted : Saturday, August 13, 2016 11:10:12 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: rich1e I Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: I Super GT I Go to Quoted Post
On the whole I think it's true. Also, racing is different to hotlapping. Hotlapping is more about maximising the given track to extract the best possible lap. In this respect, I firmly believe people would rather have better defined limits where they have to stay on track.

If people are cutting corners during a race, then the following driver should report it to the TORA officials afterwards if it goes against any of the TORA rules.



Well I don't know why people want to separate hotlapping from racing. In a TORA race you wouldn't say qualifying and race are 2 different things. In both cases it's about getting around the track as fast as you can, and of course the same rules have to be applied. If you took similar lines during a TORA qualifying you would be DQ'd immediately. Hotlapping and racing are basically the same thing. The only difference is obviously that in hotlapping there's no traffic. So why on earth is hotlapping different? In this case the rivals event IS technically a qualifying round.

Again, I understand you want to defend your friends and surely everyone has a different definition of friendship. In my view friendship doesn't consist only in laughing and agreeing on everything all the time, but also in honesty and telling your friend when he's wrong. I think in principle you know exactly that it's just wrong and that it goes against everything racing. There's no excuse for such behaviour and normally ESL should reset the whole thing because the cutting debacle is affecting their reputation too.


I perhaps should have explained a little better my reasoning but actually yes, hotlapping and racing are the same in terms of the rules. I was meant to allude to the psychology of the driver during a race is different than during hotlapping. As a result of having other cars on circuit, someone might feel pressured and cut a corner to preserve their position. It doesn't make it right of course if the rules state that it isn't allowed. I still that on the whole, people want to stay on the track. This would be just be my possible explanation as to why that person you saw cut a corner, cut a corner.

I never make these long posts to 'defend my friends'. I make them to portray to everyone what I think is right. I couldn't care less if some of my friends happen to agree or not. Out of curiosity, which 'friends' do you think I am defending here? I would happily make a point on here if it went against the views of everyone I liked, only this time it doesn't.

I don't think it's wrong at all. I think it's a culture of high end competition (including motorsport) to push the rules to the limit. It's something I've been involved in since kart racing at 11 years old. Formula One drivers would do the exact same thing if their rule makers said it was allowed, this is something very much a part of racing.

As for ESL or T10 looking bad out of this, yes, you're right - it may well harm their image. It won't get reset though, the world will move and we if next week is better, this will be forgotten.

Edited by user Saturday, August 13, 2016 11:11:04 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#186 Posted : Sunday, August 14, 2016 12:22:40 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: I Super GT I Go to Quoted Post

I perhaps should have explained a little better my reasoning but actually yes, hotlapping and racing are the same in terms of the rules. I was meant to allude to the psychology of the driver during a race is different than during hotlapping. As a result of having other cars on circuit, someone might feel pressured and cut a corner to preserve their position. It doesn't make it right of course if the rules state that it isn't allowed. I still that on the whole, people want to stay on the track. This would be just be my possible explanation as to why that person you saw cut a corner, cut a corner.

I never make these long posts to 'defend my friends'. I make them to portray to everyone what I think is right. I couldn't care less if some of my friends happen to agree or not. Out of curiosity, which 'friends' do you think I am defending here? I would happily make a point on here if it went against the views of everyone I liked, only this time it doesn't.

I don't think it's wrong at all. I think it's a culture of high end competition (including motorsport) to push the rules to the limit. It's something I've been involved in since kart racing at 11 years old. Formula One drivers would do the exact same thing if their rule makers said it was allowed, this is something very much a part of racing.

As for ESL or T10 looking bad out of this, yes, you're right - it may well harm their image. It won't get reset though, the world will move and we if next week is better, this will be forgotten.


I don't want to call out names and I'm not referring to someone particular and I don't want to start an endless debate either. I'm also just portraying (I learned a new word today, thanks for that :) my thoughts on the debate and I don't want to offend anybody, but I think we're talking about different things or maybe It's a matter of "philosophy" in some way. I know what you mean by culture of high end competition. Someone postet an article during the Lambo ST series about 2 types of gamers: One plays to win and doesn't care about morals or motorsport rules, and the other one sticks to his principles. Now, in my view the more important the tournament is the more people should drive clean. But it appears the exact opposite is the case.

I understand your point about the pressure and the cutting, but in the rivals event there is no pressure and how come people are still cutting? There's no cutting in RL races. Race directors would allow to use run off areas but cutting is never allowed, and a 1st chicane move like in the Monza rivals would unsettle any car anyways. You won't find a similar case in RL and you won't find it in a TORA race, because they're serious organizers and stick to motorsport rules from RL. I think in regard of the first chicane at Monza "drivers push the rules to the limit" is just a euphemism. They're clearly breaking the rules and exploiting game vulnerabilities. T10 didn't state you can cut. People first took advantage, then the organizers had to allow it for various reasons (schedule etc.). That's why ESL and T10 look really bad out of this.

But ok, I think everything has been said so far and I rest my case. All the cutting is an anti motorsport behavior, it's silly and not serious at all. It harms T10's and ESL's image and it promotes unfair and unsporting behavior among the casuals as well. Next time when people are in a race at Yas Marina/Bugatti circuit/Spa and the guy in front pulls away after taking "modern" lines through certain corners, they can't complain and say it's stupid. Many of the corner cutters now have the official prove: corner cutting is legal to improve laptimes, confirmed in an e-sport event. Maybe people should recognize that they're not contributing to a better Forza in the future, especially in MP. Responsibility for this debacle is 50/50 organizers/participants

Edited by user Sunday, August 14, 2016 12:06:32 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#187 Posted : Sunday, August 14, 2016 1:31:47 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: rich1e I Go to Quoted Post
I don't want to call out names and I'm not referring to someone particular and I don't want to start an endless debate either. I'm also just portraying (I learned a new word today, thanks for that :) my thoughts on the debate and I don't want to offend anybody, but I think we're talking about different things or maybe It's a matter of "philosophy" in some way. I know what you mean by culture of high end competition. Someone postet an article during the Lambo ST series about 2 types of gamers: One plays to win and doesn't care about morals or motorsport rules, and the other sticks to his principles. Now, in my view the more important the tournament is the more people should drive clean. But it appears the exact opposite is the case.


Top 128 all posted clean lap times within the rules set out by t10. T10 appoligised for not fixing the tracks properly they admitted "there is more work to be done" I watched several streams last night and the racing was very clean. I agree it's wrong to call out any names but feel free to call out t10

Quote:
I understand your point about the pressure and the cutting, but in the rivals event there is no pressure and how come people are still cutting? There's no cutting in RL races. Race directors would allow to use run off areas but cutting is never allowed, and a 1st chicane move like in the Monza rivals would unsettle any car anyways. You won't find a similar case in RL and you won't find it in a TORA race, because they're serious organizers and stick to motorsport rules from RL. I think in regard of the first chicane at Monza "drivers push the rules to the limit" is just a euphemism. They're clearly breaking the rules and exploiting game vulnerabilities. T10 didn't state you can cut. People first took advantage, then the organizers had to allow it for various reasons (schedule etc.). That's why ESL and T10 look really bad out of this.


T10 allowed it because they failed to fix it correctly, the pressure in rivals is very intense you only have to look at lb to see how close it is. RL comparisons don't really work when you have over 10000 people entering the competition. T10 are clearly going in the direction of e sports and I hope they make a success of it but for now it's an arcade game with no penalty system so we have to work with what we have. In the future RL comparisons may be more relevant.

Quote:
But ok, I think everything has been said so far and I rest my case. All the cutting is an anti motorsport behavior, it's silly and not serious at all. It harms T10's and ESL's image and it promotes unfair and unsporting behavior among the casuals as well. Maybe people should recognize that they're not contributing to a better Forza in the future, especially in MP. Responsibility for this debacle is 50/50 organizers/participants


Your absolutely right on this 1 but the responsibility lies firmly with the developers of the game. It's impossible to get the numbers that play the game to all be sensible and stay within the lines. Some 1 will always take advantage. Without a proper system in place by the developers or clearly mark track limitations this will always be a problem. Personally id rather it was the fastest in the game that take these advantages rather than the moral high ground. I do not want to see cheating desperate people at the top because the top flight are pressured into doing the right thing.

Apply pressure to t10 lets all make sure we are on the right page. We all want a game that everyone can play fairly, forza 6 is not ready but forza 7 might be the 1.

Edited by user Sunday, August 14, 2016 1:35:56 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
#188 Posted : Sunday, August 14, 2016 9:27:23 AM(UTC)
esl on track.

Hmmm after digging further into the rules, it clearly states 2 tires must be on the track and between the white lines at all times. It also states the the curbs are not part of the track. So that means only 2 tires can only be on the curb. Useing the cut line that is clean is ileagal if your actually following the esl rules.

Ill be qualifying according to these rules as set forth by esl. Anyone dropping 4 tires over the whites lines should be dealt with especially if they make the top 128.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#189 Posted : Sunday, August 14, 2016 10:18:31 AM(UTC)
Hopefully it won't be such an issue on the next 2 tracks but FYI esl have already allowed the clean laps from monza
Rank: Driver's Permit
#190 Posted : Sunday, August 14, 2016 11:10:06 AM(UTC)
I know right, whats the point if the event host wont even follow/enforce its own rules. Its lousy that those of us who prefer to run true clean laps according to the rules are forced into cheating in order to get anywhere. The system is rigged to support those who cheat.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#191 Posted : Thursday, August 18, 2016 4:04:49 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: X Mr Plankton X Go to Quoted Post
TL:DR, "I know im a cheater but the game says its okay so i'll do it"

For real, go and run an actual race event in the real world and see how quick you get penalties, fines and then your license stripped for being a cheat.

People saying it would be too hard to police are right, but if everyone raced fairly and didn't purposely exploit track limits, it would be far easier to view to top replays and disqualify those that do.


Sets a bad precedent for forza when they stream the finals and everyone that got there knowingly exploited the game to do so.



I'm sorry, but the notion of "why can't everyone just race clean" is extremely, hilariously idealistic for a video game where there are no real punishments. You must live in fantasy land if you think people will drive by their principles alone. If there is an exploit which can save a significant amount of time, no matter how many people claim to be against it, someone will use it, and that alone is enough to justify everyone else doing it. Your "principles" mean nothing in a situation that was caused by developer error, if you're that angry about it you can contact Turn 10 yourself.

Btw, as a disclaimer I am not participating the Forza RC, so I am not taking a side here. I'm just pointing out how silly it is to expect everyone to restrain themselves.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#192 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2016 7:07:43 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FISH AAC Go to Quoted Post


Stop it. The Ford Mustang GT is not a pile of poo. I happen to own one. I have owned several others also. I think it runs and handles fine. It is completely stock. What are you looking for in a Mustang? It's not a Ferrari, it's a Mustang!

Also It's American. It's one of the things this country was built on.


Are ANY American cars good at going round corners? ;oD

*Dons body armour and helmet and ducks for cover*[/quote]

Well, the GT350R is leading the Continental Tire Championship in GS class, the Ford GT Le Mans, is 2nd behind the Corvette C7 in the GTLM Championship, I believe that the Dogde Viper is running top 3 in the GTD class, and I am pretty sure that the Focus RS is holding its own in rally cross. Just guessing on the last one as I haven't been following rally racing in a couple of years. But, these are just some to name a few.
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