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Rank: B-Class Racing License
#26 Posted : Thursday, July 28, 2016 12:21:23 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: lI CHEF Il Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post
Hey Chef,

Thanks for your comments but I still stand by my general suggestions given in the guide.

The guide is meant for setting up a general RWD / AWD tune, There might be track specific settings that gives you faster lap time though I have yet to see a specific tune that is faster and in general I don't believe in track specific tunes, only track specific builds.

I won't argue with you about right or wrong in all the specific examples you mentioned as you obviously have a different tuning style, so each to their own.

But just for the sake of fun let's make a little challenge here: you give me a build / tune of your choice and I will try to come up with my own tune that complies to this guide and we let lap time decide, even on different tracks of your choice - how about that :-)


A class 99 Viper at Yas full night. We'll both run a version of the tunes. You put the build up of your base tune and once we run both I'll supply my version of the tune to put up. Not running for the leaderboard either.

Aspiration Swap:
Centrifugal Supercharger

Engine:
Sport Centrifugal SC
Street Intercooler

Suspension:
Race brakes, springs, roll bars
Sport Weight

Drivetrain:
Race trans
Street driveline
Race diff

Tires:
Sport Compound

Aero
Front and rear aero

That gives you all the options to use your base tune.

Hey Chef,

Cool! I hope I can give it a go tomorrow!

Fifty

Edited by user Thursday, July 28, 2016 12:46:31 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#27 Posted : Thursday, July 28, 2016 12:29:29 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post
-3.5/-3.0 for older cars for camber. Ignore the telemetry. An exception is for very heavy cars. Caster also doesn't seem to matter much when you're running these high figures.

Newer cars do seem to need less.


Hi Sweve,

Do you have a specific example at hand for runningt hat high camber? I'm curious how it would stack up against my tuning style.


Mazda Cosmo, Ford Bronco, Holden Monaro, fiat 124, Mercedes 280sl, chevy nova, Dodge Dart, Dodge Charger, 69 trans am, olds 442, 73 Trans am, Alfa Milano, Porsche 550, etc. Pretty much every car. I start low and always end up high because the car turns in better. It's not bad with lower settings but the car definitely feels stiffer.


Can you maybe provide a specific tune for one of the cars you mentioned? I'd try to come up with a version myself then.

From my experience good or bad turn-in is the result of many factors, mainly ARBs, suspension and Diff but not camber.

BTW too high camber increases brake distance, a good example to check this out is the end of the long straight on Yas Marina North.

Edited by user Thursday, July 28, 2016 12:34:17 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: On the Podium
#28 Posted : Thursday, July 28, 2016 8:00:45 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post
-3.5/-3.0 for older cars for camber. Ignore the telemetry. An exception is for very heavy cars. Caster also doesn't seem to matter much when you're running these high figures.

Newer cars do seem to need less.


Hi Sweve,

Do you have a specific example at hand for runningt hat high camber? I'm curious how it would stack up against my tuning style.


Mazda Cosmo, Ford Bronco, Holden Monaro, fiat 124, Mercedes 280sl, chevy nova, Dodge Dart, Dodge Charger, 69 trans am, olds 442, 73 Trans am, Alfa Milano, Porsche 550, etc. Pretty much every car. I start low and always end up high because the car turns in better. It's not bad with lower settings but the car definitely feels stiffer.


Can you maybe provide a specific tune for one of the cars you mentioned? I'd try to come up with a version myself then.

From my experience good or bad turn-in is the result of many factors, mainly ARBs, suspension and Diff but not camber.

BTW too high camber increases brake distance, a good example to check this out is the end of the long straight on Yas Marina North.


Nope. Car definitely handles better without adjusting anything else. It really holds the turn well. Doesn't matter what ARBs you're running either. Get the car balanced right and master it. Then put on mega camber and it's magically way better.

Well, every #1 cosmo is running insane camber, so there's a start. I've noticed no difference in braking. Insane camber works great on Yas. Best one that handles perfect is Lou's/cowboy hater tune that's shared around silverstone/road atlanta short in D.

I know the open source. The settings are nuts.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#29 Posted : Thursday, July 28, 2016 10:27:08 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post

I know the open source. The settings are nuts.

Can you provide the Open Source?

Edited by user Friday, July 29, 2016 8:42:32 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: On the Podium
#30 Posted : Friday, July 29, 2016 10:17:34 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post

I know the open source. The settings are nuts.

Can you provide the Open Source?


I can but I wont. Just know that forza logic or lack thereof trumps a logically conceived analysis.

Today I was tuning a mercury cougar and stock camber settings are really good. Car was putting down low top 100s and killing it around corners. Just for experiments sake I bumped it to -2.5/-2 which should have created all sorts of problems. Instead the car was able to take several corners much faster and I dropped a half second instantly. Now I have a top 50 car that will torch the field on this track and quite a few others.

Edited by user Friday, July 29, 2016 10:18:18 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#31 Posted : Friday, July 29, 2016 10:40:18 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: lI CHEF Il Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post
Hey Chef,

Thanks for your comments but I still stand by my general suggestions given in the guide.

The guide is meant for setting up a general RWD / AWD tune, There might be track specific settings that gives you faster lap time though I have yet to see a specific tune that is faster and in general I don't believe in track specific tunes, only track specific builds.

I won't argue with you about right or wrong in all the specific examples you mentioned as you obviously have a different tuning style, so each to their own.

But just for the sake of fun let's make a little challenge here: you give me a build / tune of your choice and I will try to come up with my own tune that complies to this guide and we let lap time decide, even on different tracks of your choice - how about that :-)


A class 99 Viper at Yas full night. We'll both run a version of the tunes. You put the build up of your base tune and once we run both I'll supply my version of the tune to put up. Not running for the leaderboard either.

Aspiration Swap:
Centrifugal Supercharger

Engine:
Sport Centrifugal SC
Street Intercooler

Suspension:
Race brakes, springs, roll bars
Sport Weight

Drivetrain:
Race trans
Street driveline
Race diff

Tires:
Sport Compound

Aero
Front and rear aero

That gives you all the options to use your base tune.

Hey Chef,

This is the setup I came up with:

Tires: 28.5/28.5
Camber: -1.8/-1.5
Toe: 0.0/0.0
Caster: 5.0
ARBs: 21.11/21.61
Springs: 717.3/691.6
Rebound: 7.9/7.6
Bump: 4.8/4.6
Brakes: 48%/125%
Aero: 100/200
Diff: 68%/34%

I didn't have time to touch the gears, so maybe there can be squeezed out a bit, but I felt standard gears are not so bad on Yas. Actually I wouldn't use the race transmission at all and save PI for other things but anyway that's build related.

Unfortunately I'm on holiday the next two weeks and won't have access to my Xbox. Until then I won't be able to do any test runs on Yas but I'm pretty sure I leave the tune as it is.

Fifty

Edited by user Friday, July 29, 2016 10:46:59 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#32 Posted : Monday, August 1, 2016 8:39:20 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post

I can but I wont. Just know that forza logic or lack thereof trumps a logically conceived analysis.

Today I was tuning a mercury cougar and stock camber settings are really good. Car was putting down low top 100s and killing it around corners. Just for experiments sake I bumped it to -2.5/-2 which should have created all sorts of problems. Instead the car was able to take several corners much faster and I dropped a half second instantly. Now I have a top 50 car that will torch the field on this track and quite a few others.

Swerve, just for the sake of experimentation: are you willing to share a build and I come up with a tune we can compare against your mega camber tune.

I'm still not entirely sold on this mega camber even if it undoubtedly gives you faster laptimes. It still could mask other flaws of the tune.

Or should I say I still believe in some logic in Forza tuning :-) Actually I think Forza tuning is pretty systematic if you factor in car chassis and suspension stiffness and I have yet to see an exception.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#33 Posted : Wednesday, August 3, 2016 6:59:15 PM(UTC)
hey, fifty inch, do you use ABS, TCS, or controller? Looking at your guide and want to make sure any of that applies to me or not. I cannot turn ABS off with a controller. Too hard on the LT, not finesse enough for all that.
member of 2O4F #8

I race ALMS, NASCAR, IMSA, and most other full blown racecars. I do some daily tuners as well. Very little drifting.

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#34 Posted : Wednesday, August 3, 2016 8:57:12 PM(UTC)
I run with controller, no assists and simulation steering.

But I see no reason why the guide shouldn't also apply to people who use assists like ABS or TCS.

Nevertheless I encourage you to drop assists, especially ABS. Learning to drive without assists will make you a better and ultimately faster driver.

Edited by user Wednesday, August 3, 2016 9:45:35 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#35 Posted : Thursday, August 4, 2016 7:59:41 AM(UTC)
After doing a few laps, the base tune is OK at best. Still has major understeer and can't push the car to it's limits because it's stiff. The downforce kills the speed for this track but can get around the turns better. The tune is fine for flat tracks with very little elevation like Yas. My times won't mean much since I can easily san **** someones build and tune. Next time your on post the base build up and I have mine posted as well. Put in the sport trans and a cold air intake to make it 700 again. Need someone else to test out both tunes and give feedback with times.
Rank: On the Podium
#36 Posted : Thursday, August 4, 2016 9:27:36 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post

I can but I wont. Just know that forza logic or lack thereof trumps a logically conceived analysis.

Today I was tuning a mercury cougar and stock camber settings are really good. Car was putting down low top 100s and killing it around corners. Just for experiments sake I bumped it to -2.5/-2 which should have created all sorts of problems. Instead the car was able to take several corners much faster and I dropped a half second instantly. Now I have a top 50 car that will torch the field on this track and quite a few others.

Swerve, just for the sake of experimentation: are you willing to share a build and I come up with a tune we can compare against your mega camber tune.

I'm still not entirely sold on this mega camber even if it undoubtedly gives you faster laptimes. It still could mask other flaws of the tune.

Or should I say I still believe in some logic in Forza tuning :-) Actually I think Forza tuning is pretty systematic if you factor in car chassis and suspension stiffness and I have yet to see an exception.


Sure.

I have no problem open sourcing the cougar as well. I'd much rather see it online instead of 73 Trans am.

If you try the Cosmo tune I suggested, you'll have a hard time finding faults. It's practically perfect tuning wise.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#37 Posted : Thursday, August 4, 2016 1:26:37 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post

I can but I wont. Just know that forza logic or lack thereof trumps a logically conceived analysis.

Today I was tuning a mercury cougar and stock camber settings are really good. Car was putting down low top 100s and killing it around corners. Just for experiments sake I bumped it to -2.5/-2 which should have created all sorts of problems. Instead the car was able to take several corners much faster and I dropped a half second instantly. Now I have a top 50 car that will torch the field on this track and quite a few others.

Swerve, just for the sake of experimentation: are you willing to share a build and I come up with a tune we can compare against your mega camber tune.

I'm still not entirely sold on this mega camber even if it undoubtedly gives you faster laptimes. It still could mask other flaws of the tune.

Or should I say I still believe in some logic in Forza tuning :-) Actually I think Forza tuning is pretty systematic if you factor in car chassis and suspension stiffness and I have yet to see an exception.


Sure.

I have no problem open sourcing the cougar as well. I'd much rather see it online instead of 73 Trans am.

If you try the Cosmo tune I suggested, you'll have a hard time finding faults. It's practically perfect tuning wise.

Great! But in order to compare tunes I need the settings so let's try your Cougar instead of the Cosmo.

Give me the build and I come up with the tune then we compare with your mega camber settings. Deal?
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#38 Posted : Thursday, August 4, 2016 1:28:53 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: lI CHEF Il Go to Quoted Post
After doing a few laps, the base tune is OK at best. Still has major understeer and can't push the car to it's limits because it's stiff. The downforce kills the speed for this track but can get around the turns better. The tune is fine for flat tracks with very little elevation like Yas. My times won't mean much since I can easily san **** someones build and tune. Next time your on post the base build up and I have mine posted as well. Put in the sport trans and a cold air intake to make it 700 again. Need someone else to test out both tunes and give feedback with times.

Ok, no prob, will post the tune with the sport trans as soon as I get access to my Xbox again.

Rank: On the Podium
#39 Posted : Thursday, August 4, 2016 8:50:22 PM(UTC)
D400 Cougar. Runs top 50s-150s on most tracks.

Build:
5.7L engine swap
Aero front/rear
AFP 118 rims
19/19 rim size
Street transmission
Sport driveline
Race diff
Race springs
Race front and rear ARBS
Sport weight reduction

Tune:
28.5/28.0 tire pressure
-2.5/-2.0 camber
0/-.2 toe
5.0 caster
27.89/15.46 ARBS
525.6/451.2 springs
6.6/6.6 ride height
8.2/7.6 rebound
3.8/3.4 bump
75/137 aero
50/30 diff

All tuned based on feel.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#40 Posted : Friday, August 5, 2016 1:16:19 AM(UTC)
Interesting! Not exactly "mega" camber but still more than I would run on a muscle car. I'll give it go tomorrow!

On a side note: if you look at Foots Open Source settings for Cosmo and Cougar he also runs low camber on these.

Edited by user Friday, August 5, 2016 1:58:12 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: On the Podium
#41 Posted : Friday, August 5, 2016 4:42:52 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post
Interesting! Not exactly "mega" camber but still more than I would run on a muscle car. I'll give it go tomorrow!

On a side note: if you look at Foots Open Source settings for Cosmo and Cougar he also runs low camber on these.


The cougar is an oddity. It didn't need mega camber or high camber but I tried it after everything else was done and it was faster. Usually muscle cars are well into the -3s.

I can tell you right now, that Cosmo setup is way off. It couldn't compete with the mega camber tune. I remember running it and the (at the time) #1 tune and it was night and day.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#42 Posted : Friday, August 5, 2016 7:01:46 AM(UTC)
Swerve, any particular track you want me to test the Cougar on?
Rank: On the Podium
#43 Posted : Friday, August 5, 2016 8:35:16 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post
Swerve, any particular track you want me to test the Cougar on?


I tuned it on Indy GP but in lobbies I've liked it at road atlanta, road america, Sebring (including rain), Prague short, one of the Yas tracks that favors acceleration (can't remember which layout) and Prague full. I can't recall if I raced it on other tracks yet.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#44 Posted : Saturday, August 6, 2016 1:56:56 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: lI CHEF Il Go to Quoted Post
After doing a few laps, the base tune is OK at best. Still has major understeer and can't push the car to it's limits because it's stiff. The downforce kills the speed for this track but can get around the turns better. The tune is fine for flat tracks with very little elevation like Yas. My times won't mean much since I can easily san **** someones build and tune. Next time your on post the base build up and I have mine posted as well. Put in the sport trans and a cold air intake to make it 700 again. Need someone else to test out both tunes and give feedback with times.

Hey Chef,

Pretty much the same settings as with race trans:

Tires: 28.5/28.5
Camber: -1.8/-1.5
Toe: 0.0/0.0
Caster: 5.0
ARBs: 21.11/21.61
Springs: 717.4/691.7
Ride Height: 3.8/3.9
Rebound: 7.9/7.6
Bump: 4.8/4.6
Brakes: 48%/125%
Aero: 100/200
Diff: 68%/34%

Now I'm interested to see yours!

Fifty
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#45 Posted : Saturday, August 6, 2016 3:26:56 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post
D400 Cougar. Runs top 50s-150s on most tracks.

Build:
5.7L engine swap
Aero front/rear
AFP 118 rims
19/19 rim size
Street transmission
Sport driveline
Race diff
Race springs
Race front and rear ARBS
Sport weight reduction

Tune:
28.5/28.0 tire pressure
-2.5/-2.0 camber
0/-.2 toe
5.0 caster
27.89/15.46 ARBS
525.6/451.2 springs
6.6/6.6 ride height
8.2/7.6 rebound
3.8/3.4 bump
75/137 aero
50/30 diff

All tuned based on feel.

I tried your tune at Sebrinf Short and gave it short test run to get a feel. And I could instantly feel what you mean by taking corners faster, especially noticeable on turn 1.

I then tuned the Cougar my style, these are the settings:
Tires: 28.0/28.0
Camber: -1.3-1.1/-0.4
Toe: 0.0/-0.2
Caster: 7.0
ARBs: 24.19/17.56
Springs: 794.7/401.9
Ride Height: 6.6/6.6
Rebound: 7.2/6.6
Bump: 5.0/4.6
Aero: 75/137
Diff: 66% 35%

I did a 10 lap test run with both setups on Sebring Short. With your setup I was able to drive a 1.26.45, with mine a 1.26.25.

I'm pretty sure when hot lapping you can run with both setups similar times, maybe even faster ones with yours.

But for consistency I liked mine better, I had 3 1.26.2x in my test run while with yours just one 1.26.4x. Especially the last turn is more difficult with yours, at least with my driving style.

It could really be that for your driving style it's the other way around and that you are faster and more consistent with yours.

Maybe in the end it really comes down to driving style so there is really no right or wrong, just different.

Still IMHO the proof that "mega" camber is not the only way to be fast.

UPDATE: Made a mistake with front camber, should be -1.1, is even better, I ran 1.25.9

Edited by user Sunday, August 7, 2016 2:56:08 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: On the Podium
#46 Posted : Monday, August 8, 2016 6:36:57 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post
D400 Cougar. Runs top 50s-150s on most tracks.

Build:
5.7L engine swap
Aero front/rear
AFP 118 rims
19/19 rim size
Street transmission
Sport driveline
Race diff
Race springs
Race front and rear ARBS
Sport weight reduction

Tune:
28.5/28.0 tire pressure
-2.5/-2.0 camber
0/-.2 toe
5.0 caster
27.89/15.46 ARBS
525.6/451.2 springs
6.6/6.6 ride height
8.2/7.6 rebound
3.8/3.4 bump
75/137 aero
50/30 diff

All tuned based on feel.

I tried your tune at Sebrinf Short and gave it short test run to get a feel. And I could instantly feel what you mean by taking corners faster, especially noticeable on turn 1.

I then tuned the Cougar my style, these are the settings:
Tires: 28.0/28.0
Camber: -1.3-1.1/-0.4
Toe: 0.0/-0.2
Caster: 7.0
ARBs: 24.19/17.56
Springs: 794.7/401.9
Ride Height: 6.6/6.6
Rebound: 7.2/6.6
Bump: 5.0/4.6
Aero: 75/137
Diff: 66% 35%

I did a 10 lap test run with both setups on Sebring Short. With your setup I was able to drive a 1.26.45, with mine a 1.26.25.

I'm pretty sure when hot lapping you can run with both setups similar times, maybe even faster ones with yours.

But for consistency I liked mine better, I had 3 1.26.2x in my test run while with yours just one 1.26.4x. Especially the last turn is more difficult with yours, at least with my driving style.

It could really be that for your driving style it's the other way around and that you are faster and more consistent with yours.

Maybe in the end it really comes down to driving style so there is really no right or wrong, just different.

Still IMHO the proof that "mega" camber is not the only way to be fast.

UPDATE: Made a mistake with front camber, should be -1.1, is even better, I ran 1.25.9


It's definitely driver style in this case. There's a certain feel I need to get the most out of a car. I'm very aggressive with my line choice and I need a car that can handle it. If I gave this car to one of my friends, he would take out some of the turn-in ability via ARBs/springs but increase camber to -3s to match the 73 Trans Am builds. If I gave it to another he would love it and put down some rediculous lap time.

All I would say is if you're running a car that's less than 3,000lbs or has stock tires, try mega camber after the car is done. There are exceptions like every Lexus, 77 trans am, Pontiac GTO, unicorn Aston Martin, and 240sx but cars like 550, 97 civic, and Lotus elan go from lifeless turds (that are still fast) to rockets (that are untouchable).

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#47 Posted : Monday, August 8, 2016 8:26:37 AM(UTC)
Swerve, do me a favour and try mine. I'm interested in your feedback
Rank: On the Podium
#48 Posted : Monday, August 8, 2016 10:02:49 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: fifty inch Go to Quoted Post
Swerve, do me a favour and try mine. I'm interested in your feedback


I will. I haven't hotlapped the car at Sebring but I know it's pretty quick from hopper races.

I probably won't try it until sometime later this week. I will be competing in both ESL tournaments and the car used this week is probably my best shot of cracking the top 128.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#49 Posted : Monday, August 8, 2016 10:07:26 AM(UTC)
Ok great! Looking forward!
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#50 Posted : Wednesday, August 17, 2016 5:25:20 AM(UTC)
Looks good. Gonna give it a try in the late afternoon. :)
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