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Rank: Racing Permit
 3 users liked this post.
#1 Posted : Sunday, May 8, 2016 12:28:20 PM(UTC)
Hi, the starting grid in this game is very very poorly balanced. The fastest cars and drivers start in the front, while you always start in ~13th or so. How is that fair? 3 laps is not enough to pass that many cars, and every single race ends up with the first two or so lead cars significantly ahead of the rest of the pack.

The game needs either to start the fastest cars/drivers in the back or have some sort of qualifying round that gives you a chance to start closer to the front. Either one of these or longer races would suffice, it takes time to pass every single car on the field.

Don't say "well just lower the difficulty" because that's not what I'm getting at. I like racing against good drivers and I love a challenge, but as it is now the fast AI drivers get an unfair advantage every time.
Rank: Racing Permit
#2 Posted : Sunday, May 8, 2016 2:53:12 PM(UTC)
It actually gets tougher, I'll give you a tip, go fast into the corners and brake late and accelerate fast out of them.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#3 Posted : Sunday, May 8, 2016 4:52:44 PM(UTC)
^ dont do that.

Learn proper lines into and out of corners and u will be faster than always brake late and try to accelerate out. Slow in fast out. Slow not meaning literally slow but a slower concise line into corner to set u up for a faster exit.

This is an problem t10 has implemented for a while. Part of the reason multiplayer is a mess. Starting too far back with few laps to be able to cleanly set up passes.

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 1 user liked this post.
#4 Posted : Sunday, May 8, 2016 9:24:56 PM(UTC)
I know how to drive, I am pretty good at it. You almost always want to go slow in and hammer on the throttle as soon as possible to set yourself up for the next straightaway.

It's not a matter of driving skill, it's a matter of putting the player at a disadvantage for no reason.

There is literally no logic in starting the fastest AI drivers in the fastest cars in the front of the pack. If I have to make a dozen passes to win they should too.

Edited by user Sunday, May 8, 2016 9:26:12 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#5 Posted : Sunday, May 8, 2016 9:47:54 PM(UTC)
I think it is meant to be a challenge, not do it one time and achieve all objectives. It is not even a week old. I beat them and made them more difficult to get more racing points, keep trying that is how you get better. It is definitely doable. I can hold my own but there are many many people better than me.

Edited by user Sunday, May 8, 2016 9:52:24 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#6 Posted : Sunday, May 8, 2016 10:21:32 PM(UTC)
I am unsure though how many Forza-games you've played so far but since FM5, there seems to be an increasing amount of players that struggle with the AI/Drivatars at certain difficulty-levels.

Now, I have always said I am not a great driver. On most FM6 VIP Community tracks, I rank anywhere from top 100 to top 500 on some of the tracks. But the career/campaign of FM5 and upwards, is actually quite a breeze, to be honest. Most races I am able to complete, with some aggrevation, on Pro or Unbeatable with Sim-Damage on.

It doesn't matter how many cars start in front of you; it's how they harass each other and you making advantage of that. Even in Apex, I just completed all Events & Spotlights on Platinum which, in my opinion, is easier than completing FM6 Career on Unbeatable AI.
Rank: Racing Permit
#7 Posted : Sunday, May 8, 2016 11:28:20 PM(UTC)
I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying, difficulty is not the problem here. I like a challenge and am capable of beating the AI on max difficulty.

The problem here is the unfair method in which the races are started. Almost every other racing game has some sort of qualifying lap, why doesn't Forza?

It's frustrating to see the fastest AI cars get an unfair advantage for no reason. I would be fine with it if the races were longer but three laps is just not enough to move your way up through such a large field. The starting grid either needs to be inverted from what it is now (fastest AI and cars in the back, slowest up front) or randomized entirely.

FWIW I played every Forza until Xbone, this is my first Forza game since 4. I have no idea how this compares to 5 or 6. FM2, 3, and 4 campaigns were relatively easy on max difficulty in my opinion, but again they suffered from the unfair starting grid.

Edited by user Sunday, May 8, 2016 11:29:35 PM(UTC)  | Reason: a word

Rank: D-Class Racing License
 2 users liked this post.
#8 Posted : Sunday, May 8, 2016 11:46:46 PM(UTC)
It's not so much the starting grid, there is an issue with the one unbeatable drivatar like there was in FM6 when it was first launched on Xbox one, you will always get one drivatar that drive like the car is on rails and if it has some kind of boost so it will either pull away form you of if you manage to pass all the other cars quickly it will catch you up and pass you, usually on the last lap not far from the finish.
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Rank: D-Class Racing License
#9 Posted : Monday, May 9, 2016 11:35:23 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: davejc64 Go to Quoted Post
It's not so much the starting grid, there is an issue with the one unbeatable drivatar like there was in FM6 when it was first launched on Xbox one, you will always get one drivatar that drive like the car is on rails and if it has some kind of boost so it will either pull away form you of if you manage to pass all the other cars quickly it will catch you up and pass you, usually on the last lap not far from the finish.


This, it is not an issue of "fastest" AI at the front, it is a problem with their balancing and run away. In F6 it was the 1st three cars that pulled away, they eventually fixed it but it looks like what was learned there was not applied to Apex.

If they start to pull away restart the race, sometimes this will upset the algorithm enough to stop the run away. Otherwise restart and change the difficulty (up or down) and that can also break it up. Hopefull they will patch it the same way they did F6 and get rid of this insanity.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#10 Posted : Monday, May 9, 2016 2:10:36 PM(UTC)
I'm running down the lead cars most races, i don't see a problem with the AI.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#11 Posted : Tuesday, May 10, 2016 3:27:10 AM(UTC)
I still don't get the issue. The difference on the grid is, what?, 90 yards between #1 and your position? Even if someone is marginally faster than #1, you have 3 to 5 laps of racing to gain 91 yards on them and win the race.

I tried helping a friend yesterday on the first Tour (where you race old muscle cars) in getting Platinum. and to give decent advise, I did a few race-starts with different cars and always kept the same line into the first corner. On Unbeatable opponent, there was 1 occassion I overtook him already in the corner after the first one. That is, what?, 30 seconds of racing to overtake an Unbeatable opponent on an "unfair grid"?

And last week, on the last Tour (Rio, Ford GT), I also overtook Unbeatable opponents before entering the tunnel already. That's 45 seconds of racing on a 2:20/lap track?

So no, I don't think the grid is unfair at all. Just that sometimes the grid doesn't help letting you pass quickly enough, seems to annoy most people.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#12 Posted : Tuesday, May 10, 2016 9:26:43 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: OctagonQontrol Go to Quoted Post
I still don't get the issue. The difference on the grid is, what?, 90 yards between #1 and your position? Even if someone is marginally faster than #1, you have 3 to 5 laps of racing to gain 91 yards on them and win the race.

I tried helping a friend yesterday on the first Tour (where you race old muscle cars) in getting Platinum. and to give decent advise, I did a few race-starts with different cars and always kept the same line into the first corner. On Unbeatable opponent, there was 1 occassion I overtook him already in the corner after the first one. That is, what?, 30 seconds of racing to overtake an Unbeatable opponent on an "unfair grid"?

And last week, on the last Tour (Rio, Ford GT), I also overtook Unbeatable opponents before entering the tunnel already. That's 45 seconds of racing on a 2:20/lap track?

So no, I don't think the grid is unfair at all. Just that sometimes the grid doesn't help letting you pass quickly enough, seems to annoy most people.


There was a known issue in F6 where the lead cars of the grid raced away and never stopped pulling away, there was no catching them even at New Racer difficulty. There is some runaway in Apex as well

There is also the issue of the less than accurate penalties that seem to be assigned with using assists. Why is manual w/ clutch so much faster than manual and even more so against automatic? Why the progression to only playing 'their' way at the expense of enjoyment?

Sometimes it's just luck of the draw. You can get a good grid and everything goes your way, and there can be others where the middle of the pack just blocks you at every opportunity to allow the leaders to pull away.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#13 Posted : Tuesday, May 10, 2016 9:50:56 AM(UTC)
you must have patience, patience, patience. If you pysch yourself out you are never gonna beat them. I'm not that good and have all the medals. Confidence is key, if I lose it I'm done. That goes for single and multiplayer.

Edited by user Tuesday, May 10, 2016 10:49:15 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#14 Posted : Tuesday, May 10, 2016 7:35:47 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: OctagonQontrol Go to Quoted Post
I still don't get the issue. The difference on the grid is, what?, 90 yards between #1 and your position? Even if someone is marginally faster than #1, you have 3 to 5 laps of racing to gain 91 yards on them and win the race.

I tried helping a friend yesterday on the first Tour (where you race old muscle cars) in getting Platinum. and to give decent advise, I did a few race-starts with different cars and always kept the same line into the first corner. On Unbeatable opponent, there was 1 occassion I overtook him already in the corner after the first one. That is, what?, 30 seconds of racing to overtake an Unbeatable opponent on an "unfair grid"?

And last week, on the last Tour (Rio, Ford GT), I also overtook Unbeatable opponents before entering the tunnel already. That's 45 seconds of racing on a 2:20/lap track?

So no, I don't think the grid is unfair at all. Just that sometimes the grid doesn't help letting you pass quickly enough, seems to annoy most people.

Are you guys even reading what I'm writing?

My issue IS NOT the difficulty of the game.

My issue is that the faster AI drivers with the faster cars have the advantage of starting at the front of the pack.

This makes no sense.

The fastest AI should start at the back, or it should be randomized. It is stupid to have every single race be predictable and all the same results; every time the first two or three cars pull away from the group because they're the fastest and they start up front.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#15 Posted : Tuesday, May 10, 2016 9:11:13 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: chikn n watrmln Go to Quoted Post
Are you guys even reading what I'm writing?

My issue IS NOT the difficulty of the game.

My issue is that the faster AI drivers with the faster cars have the advantage of starting at the front of the pack.

+
Originally Posted by: chikn n watrmln Go to Quoted Post
Hi, the starting grid in this game is very very poorly balanced. The fastest cars and drivers start in the front, while you always start in ~13th or so. How is that fair? 3 laps is not enough to pass that many cars, and every single race ends up with the first two or so lead cars significantly ahead of the rest of the pack.

You are actually writing 2 things: that you have trouble winning from the leaders at several occasions and that you feel at a disadvantage for not starting higher up the grid.

So yes, I do understand what you are writing and I tried illustrating the fact that your point about them winning is (almost) non-existing. Do I like starting halfway the pack? Not really but that's how the game works and I guess we just have to deal with it.

In another topic I posted about 10 hours ago that even Unbeatable Drivatars can REALLY drop the ball; the Sebring Spotlight race (night, 6 laps, LMP cars), they didn't even finish, the difference in best lap was 10 seconds and I finished with give-or-take 2,500 metres lead.

So, however we play this game of grammar/semantics; our position on the grid seems locked so the only way to complete objectives/game, is by overtaking the leaders. 3 laps is be more than enough on Pro/Unbeatable, even on an awfully short track like Top Gear East, to take the win and go home with Platinum medals (in Apex).
Rank: Driver's Permit
#16 Posted : Thursday, May 12, 2016 9:32:09 PM(UTC)
That's why most racing games have some kind of qualifying system. They should get rid of that "performance" system, which is completely unfair. Worse of all, most races are 2-5 laps long, forcing players to play dirty right from the start.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#17 Posted : Thursday, May 12, 2016 9:52:43 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: GruntingGEORGE Go to Quoted Post
That's why most racing games have some kind of qualifying system. They should get rid of that "performance" system, which is completely unfair. Worse of all, most races are 2-5 laps long, forcing players to play dirty right from the start.

I might be misunderstanding you but why do you need to play dirty if/when there is qualifying? Based on the trend of this topic, qualifying might make it worse for people (maybe not start 12th but even 19th) and will struggle even more. Or, as you can see from my previous statement towards OP, if you're obviously not good/fast enough to catch the #1 in a 3 to 5 lap race, you probably won't qualify on front row and even if you did, the AI-driver might pull away at the start.

Funny thing is; I have yet to see AI consistently play dirty to gain track advantage. But as long as AI drives within the track-limits and human players feel the need to play dirty or cut corners and still won't catch the AI, obviously that human players just isn't fast enough. IE on Yas Marina Full you can probably gain 2 to 3 seconds per lap just by cutting corners. If that isn't enough to keep a good drive and fast lap, I don't know what is.
Rank: Series Champion
#18 Posted : Thursday, May 12, 2016 11:48:15 PM(UTC)
Isn't it usually the case in actual motorsports that the fastest drivers start at the front? As in if you're the best you start in pole position. So how is it unfair to have the fastest racers in front?
Also Previous Forza's did not have this "unfair" grid. Grid ordering could be determined on finishing position in previous race, with positions reversed so if you finished second, you'd start second from last etc.
But yeah, another why isn't this game playing itself for me complaint. As for race length, we've all been saying they're too short, that's why Drivatars are wreckatars and online is destruction derby. But that's another matter.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#19 Posted : Friday, November 24, 2017 12:42:53 AM(UTC)
I completely agree with the topic starter.

I have played, FM2, FM3 and FM4... so FM7 is my game back to the serie. Overall impressed, but this starting order makes nonsense!

This has nothing to do with the difficulty level, but in 3 laps making clean passes true the grid (FOCUS ON CLEAN) is hard to catch up, and also very little believable. It just feels wrong!
In real life when Lewis hamilton starts on the back of the grid he can make the podium in 52 laps! not in 3....

I can understand that the first race you start from the back, but as you go to the next race, your championship (mini championship of the serie) position should be your start position.
Or as the topic starter suggested, do like GP2, reversed starting order, but then for all contenders, not only you....

I still enjoy playing through the campaign, but it just loses its credibility to be realistic. For now I just made the races longer, so from 3 laps to 14 laps (setting menu). Which makes it more doable not having to push everyone away at the start but do clean passes through the race, but a bigger time investment.



Rank: Driver's Permit
#20 Posted : Tuesday, March 6, 2018 7:42:00 PM(UTC)
I totally agree with the OP. I like and play the regular Forza Titles (mostly) for clean Racing. I wanna have opponents on eye level and fight with them for position. Thats barely the case because first you have to overtake significant slower drivers and after thats done close the gap to the leaders. Either you have done that quickly because the Track allowed to pass most of the by the start, than you go in the Lead pretty quickly and the race is a complete peace of cake or it takes a few corners because limited space at start and I need whole race to close that gap. But fighting for position, the essence of Motorsport, is really rare (but to be fair, thats not new to Apex, but maybe just felt a little stronger because the Framerate on my Surface Book is critical low in some Scenarios)...

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