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Rank: Driver's Permit
#1 Posted : Monday, January 4, 2016 5:08:44 PM(UTC)
When I'm starting a race, you know it counts down 3 2 1, I hold the gas all the way down, but my car doen't go. I'm using manual w/clutch, and the rpms just go up then down quickly. I had the same problem in forza 5. Very frustrating and annoying. I'm not happy with the game so far.
Rank: Racing Legend
#2 Posted : Tuesday, January 5, 2016 3:10:43 AM(UTC)
Maybe try playing without the clutch
It was easier in forza 5 though
Its all about timing
Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#3 Posted : Tuesday, January 5, 2016 4:26:03 AM(UTC)
This is a bug.

It was recently enlightened to me by a fellow forum member.

Its caused intermittently by backing out and in of the game. so whenever you send/read a message, take a screenshot ,record a clip or just go to xbox home and return to the game it can cause it to happen.
You know when its going to happen at the 3,2,1 countdown. if you press down the gas at 3 and the engine does not rev, its going to happen. the best thing to do is restart the console with a hard re-boot.

I wish they would fix this. as its very annoying and not a minor bug.

Edited by user Tuesday, January 5, 2016 4:28:20 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
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#4 Posted : Wednesday, January 6, 2016 12:09:48 PM(UTC)
Sounds to me like the OP is experiencing the bog at the start issue that plagues some cars in this game. Has nothing to do with any interaction (messages, backing in and out of the game / home screen)....that has no bearing on it on my console.

I have a Plymouth Prowler - C class, 500 rated, AWD conversion. That car will always bog on launch if you try the full throttle during countdown, dump clutch and go on green approach. I've learned that instead of just pinning the throttle, if you hold it half way or sometimes 3/4 (depending on the car) and launch, it doesn't bog nearly as much. I've tried this approach with other cars and have had similar results.

Edited by user Thursday, January 7, 2016 11:00:27 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#5 Posted : Wednesday, January 6, 2016 3:18:20 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Roush Sport Go to Quoted Post
Sounds to me like the OP is experiencing the bog at the start issue that plagues some cars in this game. Has nothing to do with any interaction (messages, backing in and out of the game / home screen)....that has no bearing on it.

I have a Plymouth Prowler - C class, 500 rated, AWD conversion. That car will always bog on launch if you try the full throttle during countdown, dump clutch and go on green approach. I've learned that instead of just pinning the throttle, if you hold it half way or sometimes 3/4 (depending on the car) and launch, it doesn't bog nearly as much. I've tried this approach with other cars and have had similar results.


As a matter of fact it does cause problems when interacting with other things. have been using the same cars today with no stalling issues that stalled everytime the other day and using the same technique I have been using for 10 years.

Like I said it's intermittent.

I don't make things up like this to seek attention because mommy and daddy ignored me as a child.

I do these things to help myself and others and draw light to a issue known to people whom play the game and try to offer suggestions on how to avoid the issue instead of dismissing without witnessing as you have.
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#6 Posted : Thursday, January 7, 2016 10:39:36 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: HLR Toffo Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Roush Sport Go to Quoted Post
Sounds to me like the OP is experiencing the bog at the start issue that plagues some cars in this game. Has nothing to do with any interaction (messages, backing in and out of the game / home screen)....that has no bearing on it.

I have a Plymouth Prowler - C class, 500 rated, AWD conversion. That car will always bog on launch if you try the full throttle during countdown, dump clutch and go on green approach. I've learned that instead of just pinning the throttle, if you hold it half way or sometimes 3/4 (depending on the car) and launch, it doesn't bog nearly as much. I've tried this approach with other cars and have had similar results.


As a matter of fact it does cause problems when interacting with other things. have been using the same cars today with no stalling issues that stalled everytime the other day and using the same technique I have been using for 10 years.

Like I said it's intermittent.

I don't make things up like this to seek attention because mommy and daddy ignored me as a child.

I do these things to help myself and others and draw light to a issue known to people whom play the game and try to offer suggestions on how to avoid the issue instead of dismissing without witnessing as you have.


Granted - I could have worded my post differently. Perhaps if the OP could tell us what he does prior to seeing this issue (does he / did he in fact come back from a menu prior to this issue showing up?), we might better be able to assist him. OP didn't specify if he was menu hopping prior to this issue showing or not....so it could be the result of what you posted, and then again, it might not be.

I Perhaps you should stop making assumptions. On my console I can hop in and out of menus at my discretion, and it doesn't cause launch issues. So, in that respect, no...I haven't witnessed menu hopping causing the problem. However, I can replicate the launch issues on my console at will. Certain cars do it every single time you attempt to launch them (Lotus, Subaru 22b, Plymouth Prowler, etc). The issue is consistent, and has been since the time I played the game prior to the official launch. There are several threads containing posts from players experiencing the same issue...I'm hard pressed to believe all of them are menu hopping during their playing of the game. Granted, I don't know for sure, but I'm fairly sure the menu hopping isn't the sole cause of the issue so many are experiencing.

Just trying to help....if you took my post as a shot at you, or as me trying to discredit what you said....my apologies. I meant no harm. Like you, I'm only offering suggestions to try to help. Cheers.

Edited by user Thursday, January 7, 2016 10:59:35 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#7 Posted : Thursday, January 7, 2016 11:23:52 AM(UTC)
No problem.

Cars with a long first gear bog it's expected. What I'm talking about is a stall and you need to re-engage the clutch and set throttle to get it going again. I'll upload it the next time it happens.

It's like the game is out of sync with the countdown timer and you can only rev on the count of 1 or not at all.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#8 Posted : Thursday, January 7, 2016 11:35:58 AM(UTC)
Double-tap the clutch just as it hits "go".
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#9 Posted : Thursday, January 7, 2016 11:49:08 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: HLR Toffo Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Roush Sport Go to Quoted Post
Sounds to me like the OP is experiencing the bog at the start issue that plagues some cars in this game. Has nothing to do with any interaction (messages, backing in and out of the game / home screen)....that has no bearing on it.

I have a Plymouth Prowler - C class, 500 rated, AWD conversion. That car will always bog on launch if you try the full throttle during countdown, dump clutch and go on green approach. I've learned that instead of just pinning the throttle, if you hold it half way or sometimes 3/4 (depending on the car) and launch, it doesn't bog nearly as much. I've tried this approach with other cars and have had similar results.


As a matter of fact it does cause problems when interacting with other things. have been using the same cars today with no stalling issues that stalled everytime the other day and using the same technique I have been using for 10 years.

Like I said it's intermittent.

I don't make things up like this to seek attention because mommy and daddy ignored me as a child.

I do these things to help myself and others and draw light to a issue known to people whom play the game and try to offer suggestions on how to avoid the issue instead of dismissing without witnessing as you have.



In my opinion... what u describe with backing out to the main screen checking messages Etc... While in multiplayer if you back out to main screen it resets your controller deadzones to defaults..(been an issue that has yet to be fixed) I know a lot of people are going to say that doesn't matter on a launch, but it does. U can change the characteristics of a launch by changing accelerator dead zones.

Drag Lives Matter!!!
dyno
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#10 Posted : Thursday, January 7, 2016 2:14:05 PM(UTC)
If its what I think youre talking about, it happens for me when I get in a hurry and hit the A button as the car roles to the starting line, when you "skip" that animation. I stopped doing that when I noticed it one day, hasn't really happened for me since. Just me screwing up with the clutch, lol.
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Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#11 Posted : Thursday, January 7, 2016 2:36:39 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: xDeaDxZeppLiNx Go to Quoted Post
If its what I think youre talking about, it happens for me when I get in a hurry and hit the A button as the car roles to the starting line, when you "skip" that animation. I stopped doing that when I noticed it one day, hasn't really happened for me since. Just me screwing up with the clutch, lol.


Forza has always had a auto clutch for race starts. Most cars especially the lower classes the fastest launch has always been full throttle. The higher classes and more powerful cars drop catch it best or modulated throttle. Their has never been a need to launch with your clutch button pressed in and lifting at 1 or Go. It's an auto start clutch always has been. Just for the launch that is.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#12 Posted : Saturday, January 9, 2016 6:09:49 AM(UTC)
I dont mean to be disrespectful to your theory Toffo (it could be that switching apps and what not makes it worse) but the bog or stalling at the start is very consistent (sometime you can get it to launch as the revs peak just before the redline, when it hits the rev limit the engine briefly make zero power). I know this because I don't switch apps, and my xbox one is not set up for standby mode so it does a hard boot every time I switch it on. The cause of the problem is the simulation is not allowing the engine to use full power when the car is stationary (0km/h or 0m/h) and it effects all cars differently.

Edited by user Saturday, January 9, 2016 6:26:05 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#13 Posted : Saturday, January 9, 2016 6:51:05 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Blue028 Go to Quoted Post
I dont mean to be disrespectful to your theory Toffo (it could be that switching apps and what not makes it worse) but the bog or stalling at the start is very consistent (sometime you can get it to launch as the revs peak just before the redline, when it hits the rev limit the engine briefly make zero power). I know this because I don't switch apps, and my xbox one is not set up for standby mode so it does a hard boot every time I switch it on. The cause of the problem is the simulation is not allowing the engine to use full power when the car is stationary (0km/h or 0m/h) and it effects all cars differently.


Of course, your not being disrespectful just questioning a theory I and others share. Which I question myself also.

Yet since I have become aware of this theory and avoid situations that I believe cause it, it's not happened since. Using twitch was the worst offender for me. Messages seem fine since I have been looking into the situation and still been using them without consequence.

It's not impossible for things like this to happen it would not be anything new with the ever evolving xbox dashboard. Why do you think they keep changing it. Its not because they bored, they are receiving complaints on a daily basis Is the main reason.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#14 Posted : Saturday, January 9, 2016 7:14:52 AM(UTC)
True, I guess although the issue seems relatively small it would be incredibly hard to pinpoint the rout cause, especially if it is related to the dashboard. I am interested to try out changing my xbox boot mode and test thing out now
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#15 Posted : Sunday, January 10, 2016 5:24:35 AM(UTC)
Sadly for all you boggers, there is no bug. The problem falls directly into two areas.

1. Your build and tune is not correct, no matter what you think.

2. You are demonstrating a lack of skill and finesse at the start.

Find a mirror, look into it. Congratulations! You have identified the problem.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#16 Posted : Sunday, January 10, 2016 5:53:45 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: irl Colossus Go to Quoted Post
Sadly for all you boggers, there is no bug. The problem falls directly into two areas.

1. Your build and tune is not correct, no matter what you think.

2. You are demonstrating a lack of skill and finesse at the start.

Find a mirror, look into it. Congratulations! You have identified the problem.


OH WOW HOW COULD WE HAVE MISSED IT! /sarcasm.

1. That is incorrect, Alot of even default setups it still occurs were it shouldn't.

2. That's just plane rude if you ask me, skill has nothing to do with holding the throttle flat and not being ably to move off the line, IT'S A BUG for crying out loud.

You couldn't be more wrong with your post honestly...
Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#17 Posted : Sunday, January 10, 2016 7:18:33 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: irl Colossus Go to Quoted Post
Sadly for all you boggers, there is no bug. The problem falls directly into two areas.

1. Your build and tune is not correct, no matter what you think.

2. You are demonstrating a lack of skill and finesse at the start.

Find a mirror, look into it. Congratulations! You have identified the problem.


Lol..this is from the guy who has just posted in a topic stating he's 10seconds off the pace per lap.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#18 Posted : Sunday, January 10, 2016 5:19:20 PM(UTC)
So doing a little experimentation... I took a gamepad, taped the throttle trigger to a fixed position. In this particular test I had my deadzone for accelerator at 10-100 I went in to Test Drive and brought up the telemetry. As you can see in the first picture my throttle position is 28%. I went ahead and pushed the center xbox button to take me out of the game and into the main Xbox menu, then went back into the game... As you can see the throttle position changes to 2%. Conclusion: Controller deadzone settings change dramatically, when exiting out to main menu.


So how does this effect launches and stalls....About the only time you would notice controller deadzones is with a full throttle launch drag tune. 2 different people using the same tune and using different deadzone settings, will get 2 different launches...


One other thing i noticed when performing this test. If you pull a car up to a wall and let the car stall out and restart stall out and restart, youll notice the clutch goes from 100% to 75%, 100% to 75%. I just wonder if they would lower that clutch % number down in their code if it would help "slip" the clutch a bit more to make the high traction cars a little easier to launch?

Of course i agree, alot of the stalls could probably be remedied by tuning... But with the controller deadzones changing, it can be a moving target...





[img][/url] by Don Nicholson, on Flickr[/img]


[img] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/137881259@N05/]Don Nicholson, on Flickr[/img]


Drag Lives Matter!!!
dyno
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#19 Posted : Sunday, January 10, 2016 8:56:32 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Blue028 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: irl Colossus Go to Quoted Post
Sadly for all you boggers, there is no bug. The problem falls directly into two areas.

1. Your build and tune is not correct, no matter what you think.

2. You are demonstrating a lack of skill and finesse at the start.

Find a mirror, look into it. Congratulations! You have identified the problem.


OH WOW HOW COULD WE HAVE MISSED IT! /sarcasm.

1. That is incorrect, Alot of even default setups it still occurs were it shouldn't.

2. That's just plane rude if you ask me, skill has nothing to do with holding the throttle flat and not being ably to move off the line, IT'S A BUG for crying out loud.

You couldn't be more wrong with your post honestly...


Your response illustrates exactly why you are wrong and I am right. Please grow up. And to Toffo, again I'm correct you can't see it because of your very limited ability. The truth is painful, kid.
Rank: On the Podium
#20 Posted : Monday, January 11, 2016 1:32:52 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: XxDyno DonxX Go to Quoted Post
So doing a little experimentation... I took a gamepad, taped the throttle trigger to a fixed position. In this particular test I had my deadzone for accelerator at 10-100 I went in to Test Drive and brought up the telemetry. As you can see in the first picture my throttle position is 28%. I went ahead and pushed the center xbox button to take me out of the game and into the main Xbox menu, then went back into the game... As you can see the throttle position changes to 2%. Conclusion: Controller deadzone settings change dramatically, when exiting out to main menu.


So how does this effect launches and stalls....About the only time you would notice controller deadzones is with a full throttle launch drag tune. 2 different people using the same tune and using different deadzone settings, will get 2 different launches...


One other thing i noticed when performing this test. If you pull a car up to a wall and let the car stall out and restart stall out and restart, youll notice the clutch goes from 100% to 75%, 100% to 75%. I just wonder if they would lower that clutch % number down in their code if it would help "slip" the clutch a bit more to make the high traction cars a little easier to launch?

Of course i agree, alot of the stalls could probably be remedied by tuning... But with the controller deadzones changing, it can be a moving target...





[img][/url] by Don Nicholson, on Flickr[/img]


[img] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/137881259@N05/]Don Nicholson, on Flickr[/img]




Good analysis. If somebody who uses 0/100 deadzones changes them (say, to 0/90), could that help alleviate the issue without having to worry about tuning? If so then downloading other peoples' tunes on problem cars (Lotus E23) becomes less of an issue.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#21 Posted : Monday, January 11, 2016 3:06:24 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: irl Colossus Go to Quoted Post

Your response illustrates exactly why you are wrong and I am right. Please grow up. And to Toffo, again I'm correct you can't see it because of your very limited ability. The truth is painful, kid.


My response illistrated you idiocy and stupidity, (and perhaps my poor attemt at humour)

As illustrated above minimizing the game resets your deadzones so there 1 bug. Then there is the FACT that the game isn't allowing 100% engine power when the car is stationary which is the main cause of the bog/stalling issue IMO. As was found out in another thread the engine gets damaged in higher hp cars if you bang the rev limiter while moving, but while stationary there's not enough power to cause damage. And I can figure this was done to prevent the AI cars getting damages engines on the starting grid, or does that just make you much sense for you to comprehend?

Also I did a test with the Lotus e23 today and realised that while you hold the thing flat on the rev limit it makes 0 power...

Edited by user Monday, January 11, 2016 3:08:04 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#22 Posted : Monday, January 11, 2016 4:37:35 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PJTierney Go to Quoted Post

Good analysis. If somebody who uses 0/100 deadzones changes them (say, to 0/90), could that help alleviate the issue without having to worry about tuning? If so then downloading other peoples' tunes on problem cars (Lotus E23) becomes less of an issue.


It could help slightly. But like I said it's a moving target, if you didn't hit the Xbox button to go out to the Xbox menu your deadzones are going to be jacked up. I don't want to make this sound like its the root of what the op problems are (more or less it's aimed at the condition as what hlr toffo explained)

A lot of the time when your tuning full throttle launch drag cars, your putting the car right on the edge of bogging/right in the power band. I think where the deadzones fit in to the equation is the timing of (at launch) how you catch the rpms at go. Ideally you would want them at the peak of rpms when the rev limiter is bouncing (if your right on the verge of stalling). I've found that sometimes if I'm using someone elses tune I can hold it full throttle till 1 on the countdown and blip the throttle a couple times and that helps.. Also some time grabbing full throttle on 2 Etc... In my opinion all I'm doing is effecting the timing of the peak rev limiter bounce.



. Early on the same problem could be had when you went from free play to multiplayer. I believe it was fixed in either the October or November update.. It would be nice if they would patch this one as well. I can only imagine how this effects wheel users...
Drag Lives Matter!!!
dyno
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#23 Posted : Monday, January 11, 2016 5:00:40 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: XxDyno DonxX Go to Quoted Post
So doing a little experimentation... I took a gamepad, taped the throttle trigger to a fixed position. In this particular test I had my deadzone for accelerator at 10-100 I went in to Test Drive and brought up the telemetry. As you can see in the first picture my throttle position is 28%. I went ahead and pushed the center xbox button to take me out of the game and into the main Xbox menu, then went back into the game... As you can see the throttle position changes to 2%. Conclusion: Controller deadzone settings change dramatically, when exiting out to main menu.


So how does this effect launches and stalls....About the only time you would notice controller deadzones is with a full throttle launch drag tune. 2 different people using the same tune and using different deadzone settings, will get 2 different launches...


One other thing i noticed when performing this test. If you pull a car up to a wall and let the car stall out and restart stall out and restart, youll notice the clutch goes from 100% to 75%, 100% to 75%. I just wonder if they would lower that clutch % number down in their code if it would help "slip" the clutch a bit more to make the high traction cars a little easier to launch?

Of course i agree, alot of the stalls could probably be remedied by tuning... But with the controller deadzones changing, it can be a moving target...





[img][/url] by Don Nicholson, on Flickr[/img]


[img] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/137881259@N05/]Don Nicholson, on Flickr[/img]




great research. at least someone can be bothered. instead of rubbishing people's theories and character, without knowing them or have any knowledge in the subject.

thanks don
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#24 Posted : Tuesday, January 12, 2016 6:18:02 AM(UTC)
ok, i decided to do a test to show the difference in power output when stationary.

The car I used is the #97 Tekno auto VF Commodore, which has 462KW 650NM of torque and revs to about 7800rpm.

(graph is in KW and NM)

first test is a direct comparison of power output with no load on the engine

stationary:


rolling:


i have tried to get the engine rpm matched as closely as possible, both pics where taken as the rpm is still climbimg so the engine is only under is own loading, but you can already see a pretty big difference.

second test is the same although this time using 50% throttle, and again both pics taken as the rpm are still increasing.

stationary:


rolling:


again trying to keep the rpms as close as posible, this test at 50% throttle while stationary the car will not hit the rev limiter but while rolling it could. and again pretty big difference in power outpu.

test 3, capturing the power output as the clutch grabs and begins to put load on the engine.

stationary:


rolling:


now this is were it gets really interesting, as load is applied to the car when its stationary the car doesnt make eneough power to get the wheels spinning so the rpm drops quickly, causing the even less power and by the time the car has started rolling the rpms are so low that the car either bogs as its fallen into the low end of the power band or it will stall.

and here is a bonus pic of when the car actually stalled on launch:


notice 100% throttle, the clutch is engaging but zero power, this is because the clutch has started grabbing as the engine hit redline as the power is breifly cut to allow the rpm to drop the clutch is grabbing and the rpms are still dropping and byt the time the the engine kicks back in the rpms have dropped far enough that with the reduced power output when stationary, the engine just does not have the juice to get the car moving.

Edit: just to add some extra info, these test were done on the controller, and freshly booted game and console, without using any other apps or minimizing the game.

Edited by user Tuesday, January 12, 2016 6:31:07 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#25 Posted : Tuesday, January 12, 2016 8:07:10 AM(UTC)
^^^ Well done. I'm sure HLR Toffo will be along soon.....
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