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Rank: On the Podium
 9 users liked this post.
#1 Posted : Tuesday, December 29, 2015 6:38:05 PM(UTC)
...is a joke.

Two different lobbies and two people intentionally wrecking. One guy was actually a decent driver but since vote to kick is ineffective he would just knock everyone off the road and cut every corner.

I tried to vote to kick and reported the players but this is rediculous. If you're not in a lobby with people who have no business being in multiplayer yet, your in one with a wrecker.

Congrats Turn 10, you've managed to create a multiplayer that encourages foul behavior. Yep, a hidden vote to kick was a GREAT idea...pssh.

Edited by user Tuesday, December 29, 2015 6:38:44 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's License
 1 user liked this post.
#2 Posted : Tuesday, December 29, 2015 10:51:07 PM(UTC)
Has anyone from T10 acknowledged and given an explanation as to why they made it hidden yet??
Rank: D-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#3 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 3:08:43 AM(UTC)
Who knows but its annoying AF when people just go into lobbies to troll and wont have any repercussions for their actions
Rank: On the Podium
 1 user liked this post.
#4 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 4:14:02 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: LSR Sasian Go to Quoted Post
Has anyone from T10 acknowledged and given an explanation as to why they made it hidden yet??


Not in written form. I got to race against somebody from Turn 10 in the Leagues a while back and he explained it as follows:

JONK1969 (Paraphrased) wrote:
When a player's name shows up as a kick candidate, the rest of the lobby piles on to vote that person out. This happens whether or not the person was legitimately nominated for griefing or the person was an innocent bystander. In theory, a griefer could get in ahead of everybody, start a vote for a random person and have them draw the heat while they stay in the room.


I can understand that reasoning, but unfortunately it leaves us players between a rock and a hard place. We can't be voting out legitimate players for something they didn't do, yet we don't have the power to kick out the griefers either.

As it stands there is no effective way to deal with a griefer. All you can do is either hope that you don't get hit, or you leave the room.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#5 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 5:26:04 AM(UTC)
I like that it no longer shows who you're voting to kick, though I still think the system doesn't quite work. We had 6 other friends in a lobby voting to kick a player using a Lamborghini Uras to block/ram people for 3 races straight and he managed to somehow stay in. Was a pain but he left and the races after that were great.

I saved the reply for proof before I report him as he was level 155 and I dread to think how many more times he's been doing this to people, he doesn't deserve to have multiplayer access.

One feature I'd like to see in the kick menu is a way of being able to send that last races replay directly to Turn 10 for them to decide on the players outcome as sending things to Xbox doesn't work but PM'ing someone from T10 does and with this feature it could save a lot of time.


Here's what I mean: http://xboxclips.com/SCS...c-47e2-ae9e-19ece496a0a9


As you say PJTierney with Jonks explanation is correct. I've seen it so many times in previous Forza titles as soon as it comes up on the side of the screen to vote something most players don't even look and vote yes and a lot of the time its the incorrect/innocent person.

Edited by user Wednesday, December 30, 2015 5:28:31 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Forza Twitch & Mixer mod.
Painter.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#6 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 6:56:55 AM(UTC)
Voting to kick doesnt work as T10 says it does (not 100% sure about FM6 but I am absolutely sure about FM5). Doesnt mather anyway because if they bring back the voting system of FM4 you can only give 1 vote at a time. If you kick 1 out he will be replaced by another moron within a second. Lobbies of 24 doesnt help either. In the complete chaos its impossible to see sometimes if someone is crashing or just unlucky himself.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#7 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 7:11:45 AM(UTC)
Yes, its frustrating to see Turn 10 removing or severely nerfing features instead of trying to improve on them. This vote to kick system sucks, no other way to describe it.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#8 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 7:22:24 AM(UTC)
We lost old school voting when people started spamming it to kick players just because they couldn't hang with them. I'd seen it dozens of times, if someone won several races in a row their name would pop up. If they took away the rep ding with a kick it probably wouldn't be so bad but getting your rep dinged because you're good at the game and people have to be whiny little 5 year old girls is quite sucky. The trolls did spam it too to avoid having their name pop up but more often than not I'd seen it used to get rid of dominant players.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#9 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 7:25:55 AM(UTC)
I was in a drift lobby with about 7 other people who had mics and 13 other decent, mic-less players. The rest were using Lotus E23's and Limos. We all tried to kick the griefers but it didn't work. They just kept on going, so I said let's start a private lobby and I invited every legit driver... From that point on everything was awesome and we all drift and race all the time but it shouldn't have got to that point. The Vote to Kick system is too weak. In my opinion of three people vote to kick someone then they get kicked. I know some people are at risk of getting kicked without doing anything wrong but that's a consequence we have to come to turns with if we want the actual griefers to get kicked. It's either improve the effectiveness of the kick feature or carry on in pretty crappy lobbies.
Rank: Driver's License
#10 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 7:30:18 AM(UTC)
Sound reasoning. Kind of wish T10 would make it so any and all known wreckers can only get into lobbies with other known wreckers.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#11 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 7:33:13 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: LSR Sasian Go to Quoted Post
Sound reasoning. Kind of wish T10 would make it so any and all known wreckers can only get into lobbies with other known wreckers.

I always thought that the league temperament system should be used in normal lobbies too but unfortunately it's not.
Rank: On the Podium
#12 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 7:40:33 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PJTierney Go to Quoted Post

Not in written form. I got to race against somebody from Turn 10 in the Leagues a while back and he explained it as follows:

Quote:
When a player's name shows up as a kick candidate, the rest of the lobby piles on to vote that person out. This happens whether or not the person was legitimately nominated for griefing or the person was an innocent bystander. In theory, a griefer could get in ahead of everybody, start a vote for a random person and have them draw the heat while they stay in the room.


I can understand that reasoning, but unfortunately it leaves us players between a rock and a hard place. We can't be voting out legitimate players for something they didn't do, yet we don't have the power to kick out the griefers either.

As it stands there is no effective way to deal with a griefer. All you can do is either hope that you don't get hit, or you leave the room.


Originally Posted by: SCS Skreamies Go to Quoted Post

As you say PJTierney with Jonks explanation is correct. I've seen it so many times in previous Forza titles as soon as it comes up on the side of the screen to vote something most players don't even look and vote yes and a lot of the time its the incorrect/innocent person.


Since manual kick voting seems to be at a stalemate maybe Turn 10 will have to look at some sort of automated system, whereby crashes and such will increase a person's "danger rating" and clean turns/passes/laps will decrease it. Once this "danger rating" passes a certain threshold that person gets kicked.

Unfortunately however, given the lack of response to any suggestions from the community it's getting to the point where I'm not even going to bother offering feedback anymore. It'd be nice if somebody from Turn 10 had a PM/email conversation with a few trusted racers and community members about working out ideas to solve this issue, but I guess it's something that'll only be dealt with internally and we'll just have to play by whatever gets implemented. All I know is that there are a lot of deliberate crashers out there compared to what I experienced in previous titles, and I'm supposed to just live with that.


Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: LSR Sasian Go to Quoted Post
Sound reasoning. Kind of wish T10 would make it so any and all known wreckers can only get into lobbies with other known wreckers.

I always thought that the league temperament system should be used in normal lobbies too but unfortunately it's not.


Normal Hoppers also use some form of TrueSkill for matchmaking, but with the number of concurrent players per Hopper being relatively small there's not a whole lot of matchmaking that can be done. Also, TrueSkill is a results-oriented matchmaking system; driver skill/safety has no influence on it. The only correlation between a griefer's actions and them getting placed in a lower Division is due to the fact that that person probably finishes last in every race.

Edited by user Wednesday, December 30, 2015 7:43:03 AM(UTC)  | Reason: .

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#13 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 7:44:25 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PJTierney Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PJTierney Go to Quoted Post

Not in written form. I got to race against somebody from Turn 10 in the Leagues a while back and he explained it as follows:

Quote:
When a player's name shows up as a kick candidate, the rest of the lobby piles on to vote that person out. This happens whether or not the person was legitimately nominated for griefing or the person was an innocent bystander. In theory, a griefer could get in ahead of everybody, start a vote for a random person and have them draw the heat while they stay in the room.


I can understand that reasoning, but unfortunately it leaves us players between a rock and a hard place. We can't be voting out legitimate players for something they didn't do, yet we don't have the power to kick out the griefers either.

As it stands there is no effective way to deal with a griefer. All you can do is either hope that you don't get hit, or you leave the room.


Originally Posted by: SCS Skreamies Go to Quoted Post

As you say PJTierney with Jonks explanation is correct. I've seen it so many times in previous Forza titles as soon as it comes up on the side of the screen to vote something most players don't even look and vote yes and a lot of the time its the incorrect/innocent person.


Since manual kick voting seems to be at a stalemate maybe Turn 10 will have to look at some sort of automated system, whereby crashes and such will increase a person's "danger rating" and clean turns/passes/laps will decrease it. Once this "danger rating" passes a certain threshold that person gets kicked.

Unfortunately however, given the lack of response to any suggestions from the community it's getting to the point where I'm not even going to bother offering feedback anymore. It'd be nice if somebody from Turn 10 had a PM/email conversation with a few trusted racers and community members about working out ideas to solve this issue but I guess it's something that'll only be dealt with internally and we'll just have to play by whatever gets implemented. All I know is that there are a lot of deliberate crashers out there compared to what I experienced in previous titles, and I'm supposed to just live with that.


Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: LSR Sasian Go to Quoted Post
Sound reasoning. Kind of wish T10 would make it so any and all known wreckers can only get into lobbies with other known wreckers.

I always thought that the league temperament system should be used in normal lobbies too but unfortunately it's not.


Normal Hoppers also use some form of TrueSkill for matchmaking, but with the number of concurrent players per Hopper being relatively small there's not a whole lot of matchmaking that can be done. Also, TrueSkill is a results-oriented matchmaking system; driver skill/safety has no influence on it. The only correlation between a griefer's actions and them getting placed in a lower division is due to the fact that that person probably finishes last in every race.

Hmm I didn't know that. You say true skill but does it take into account temperament aswell? I guess the system can be kinda flawed anyway considering you can just invite whoever you want to a lobby.
Rank: On the Podium
#14 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 7:58:01 AM(UTC)
There are a number of detailed papers published regarding TrueSkill but Wikipedia breaks it down fairly well.

To put it simply, every player starts at a TrueSkill ranking of 25. This can go up if you have a good result and down if you have a bad one. How much it goes up or down depends on how you do compared to other players in a race and what their TrueSkill ranks are. If you have a TS of 30 and you happen to beat a number of players who have a TS of 40+ in a race, your rating will increase much faster than if you beat a bunch of TS 20 players.


There are 2 types of TrueSkill used in Forza Motorsport 6: One for Hoppers and one for Leagues. If you have never played in a League before the game uses your Hopper TS to place you into a Division. After a few races you develop a League TS which is then used for future Division placements. Exact numbers on the TrueSkill required for each Division are unknown, but one can expect the Pinnacle Division to have drivers that mainly have TS rankings of 40-50.

As for general Hoppers I would suspect that when you join a Hopper, your TrueSkill is compared to the average of those in each lobby for that Hopper, and you're placed in the one that matches your skill level. If there are 3 B/600 lobbies open for example, with average TS ratings of 10, 25, 35, and you're a "Rank 20" driver, you'll most likely get placed into the "Rank 25" lobby. I am guessing there is some variance involved in this as when you back out and attempt to re-join, sometimes you'll get placed in a different lobby.

To the best of my understanding, TrueSkill is a results-oriented system and doesn't recognise when you crash or bump into somebody. If there is a system in the backend that logs how many crashes you have, I am sure it would have already been used for something to make the lobbies a better place to race in.

Edited by user Wednesday, December 30, 2015 8:00:16 AM(UTC)  | Reason: .

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#15 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 9:20:22 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PJTierney Go to Quoted Post
There are a number of detailed papers published regarding TrueSkill but Wikipedia breaks it down fairly well.

To put it simply, every player starts at a TrueSkill ranking of 25. This can go up if you have a good result and down if you have a bad one. How much it goes up or down depends on how you do compared to other players in a race and what their TrueSkill ranks are. If you have a TS of 30 and you happen to beat a number of players who have a TS of 40+ in a race, your rating will increase much faster than if you beat a bunch of TS 20 players.


There are 2 types of TrueSkill used in Forza Motorsport 6: One for Hoppers and one for Leagues. If you have never played in a League before the game uses your Hopper TS to place you into a Division. After a few races you develop a League TS which is then used for future Division placements. Exact numbers on the TrueSkill required for each Division are unknown, but one can expect the Pinnacle Division to have drivers that mainly have TS rankings of 40-50.

As for general Hoppers I would suspect that when you join a Hopper, your TrueSkill is compared to the average of those in each lobby for that Hopper, and you're placed in the one that matches your skill level. If there are 3 B/600 lobbies open for example, with average TS ratings of 10, 25, 35, and you're a "Rank 20" driver, you'll most likely get placed into the "Rank 25" lobby. I am guessing there is some variance involved in this as when you back out and attempt to re-join, sometimes you'll get placed in a different lobby.

To the best of my understanding, TrueSkill is a results-oriented system and doesn't recognise when you crash or bump into somebody. If there is a system in the backend that logs how many crashes you have, I am sure it would have already been used for something to make the lobbies a better place to race in.

There is one more layer to this. Connection. I willing to guess this takes priority over skill, and skrinks the pool.
Rank: Racing Permit
#16 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 10:09:16 AM(UTC)
What if and what to do when people abuse the vote to kick method. I have seen it done too many times in Forza 4 . Maybe that is why T10 has done away with that method. Public racing is getting worse so why not gather up a group of friends and race in a private lobby. If anyone is going to ban a player from racing it should be left to T10. Lets face it Forza 6 is for everyone and that means kids of all ages will get this game. What if you could only enter a race depending on your fastest lap time. I mean lets face it a lot of us will never reach top 100 on leaderboards but those guys are fast and deserve to be in a different league. The rest of us slower drivers should race in a slower league.
Rank: On the Podium
#17 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 10:22:41 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Sleestak714 Go to Quoted Post
We lost old school voting when people started spamming it to kick players just because they couldn't hang with them. I'd seen it dozens of times, if someone won several races in a row their name would pop up. If they took away the rep ding with a kick it probably wouldn't be so bad but getting your rep dinged because you're good at the game and people have to be whiny little 5 year old girls is quite sucky. The trolls did spam it too to avoid having their name pop up but more often than not I'd seen it used to get rid of dominant players.


The simple solution would be to show the votes for everyone. Spam votes will occur, but it would be difficult for wreckers and other dirty players to avoid being kicked.

The game already tracks the votes for everyone and each vote is kept until that player leaves or gets booted.

I actually didn't mind getting voted out for being too fast. Sometimes I requested it when the game kept putting me in the same slow lobby. What I did learn was that you could dominate but nobody would vote you out if 1. you avoided the hated LB cars and 2. raced everyone as clean as possible.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#18 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 10:32:07 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post

The simple solution would be to show the votes for everyone. Spam votes will occur, but it would be difficult for wreckers and other dirty players to avoid being kicked.

The game already tracks the votes for everyone and each vote is kept until that player leaves or gets booted.

I actually didn't mind getting voted out for being too fast. Sometimes I requested it when the game kept putting me in the same slow lobby. What I did learn was that you could dominate but nobody would vote you out if 1. you avoided the hated LB cars and 2. raced everyone as clean as possible.


Got to agree with this. I can put up with occasionally getting unjustly kicked out, which in my experience was a minor problem on past Forza's. I would rather it be easier to get wreckers and corner cutters kicked which is a major problem in the general hoppers at the moment.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#19 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 11:50:05 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Sleestak714 Go to Quoted Post
We lost old school voting when people started spamming it to kick players just because they couldn't hang with them. I'd seen it dozens of times, if someone won several races in a row their name would pop up. If they took away the rep ding with a kick it probably wouldn't be so bad but getting your rep dinged because you're good at the game and people have to be whiny little 5 year old girls is quite sucky. The trolls did spam it too to avoid having their name pop up but more often than not I'd seen it used to get rid of dominant players.


The simple solution would be to show the votes for everyone. Spam votes will occur, but it would be difficult for wreckers and other dirty players to avoid being kicked.

The game already tracks the votes for everyone and each vote is kept until that player leaves or gets booted.

I actually didn't mind getting voted out for being too fast. Sometimes I requested it when the game kept putting me in the same slow lobby. What I did learn was that you could dominate but nobody would vote you out if 1. you avoided the hated LB cars and 2. raced everyone as clean as possible.


100% agree. I had my fair share of kicks because of winning, but in all honesty it didn't matter,I'd just go to the next lobby and win again. Theres nothing they can say that could justify changing the vote to kick system. More times than not the right player would be kicked whether it be for crashing, corner cutting or just screaming into the microphone. The multiplayer lobbies are a disgrace in this game. I literally feel like I have to force myself to play and it's a shame because forza is my favorite racing game, or at least it was until 6 came out. Not to say it's a bad game because if I had never played forza 4 before Id think 6 was great, but i did play 4 and 6 is just a constant seesaw of being boring and frustrating to me now.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#20 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 9:28:41 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: im2fast4u711 Go to Quoted Post
100% agree. I had my fair share of kicks because of winning, but in all honesty it didn't matter,I'd just go to the next lobby and win again. Theres nothing they can say that could justify changing the vote to kick system. More times than not the right player would be kicked whether it be for crashing, corner cutting or just screaming into the microphone. The multiplayer lobbies are a disgrace in this game. I literally feel like I have to force myself to play and it's a shame because forza is my favorite racing game, or at least it was until 6 came out. Not to say it's a bad game because if I had never played forza 4 before Id think 6 was great, but i did play 4 and 6 is just a constant seesaw of being boring and frustrating to me now.


This

FM4 unlimited drift lobbies were a nightmare, but at least you had a fair chance at kicking the bad players. There was also a funny little trick, where you would go into the kick x player menu, but didn't vote to kick the person right away, so some other sorry player was scapegoated by the bad player in a final effort to ruin everyone's day. You could then press the vote to kick player, switching all the votes to them. It was great.
Ken Block invented drifting in a pink FWD Miata powered by a naturally-aspirated 5-rotor....
Rank: Driver's Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#21 Posted : Thursday, December 31, 2015 2:19:23 AM(UTC)
Why don't they just make it visible after a person has a certain number of votes? Like 3?
Rank: B-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#22 Posted : Thursday, December 31, 2015 3:34:44 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Sleestak714 Go to Quoted Post
We lost old school voting when people started spamming it to kick players just because they couldn't hang with them. I'd seen it dozens of times, if someone won several races in a row their name would pop up. If they took away the rep ding with a kick it probably wouldn't be so bad but getting your rep dinged because you're good at the game and people have to be whiny little 5 year old girls is quite sucky. The trolls did spam it too to avoid having their name pop up but more often than not I'd seen it used to get rid of dominant players.


The simple solution would be to show the votes for everyone. Spam votes will occur, but it would be difficult for wreckers and other dirty players to avoid being kicked.

The game already tracks the votes for everyone and each vote is kept until that player leaves or gets booted.

I actually didn't mind getting voted out for being too fast. Sometimes I requested it when the game kept putting me in the same slow lobby. What I did learn was that you could dominate but nobody would vote you out if 1. you avoided the hated LB cars and 2. raced everyone as clean as possible.



I agree. The kick system at the moment is absolute waste of time. While getting kicked for winning in Forza 4 did happen overall the people who really should have been kicked for wrecking and other unsavoury behaviour were. It worked much better than the system we have now.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#23 Posted : Friday, January 1, 2016 4:27:50 AM(UTC)
So am I right in thinking the vote to kick works but it's hidden? Could somebody explain.

I know how to vote someone to kick but how do people get to vote? I've never been asked to vote to kick someone, is it just hidden somewhere?
Rank: On the Podium
 1 user liked this post.
#24 Posted : Friday, January 1, 2016 8:22:40 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Benkid 08 Go to Quoted Post
So am I right in thinking the vote to kick works but it's hidden? Could somebody explain.

I know how to vote someone to kick but how do people get to vote? I've never been asked to vote to kick someone, is it just hidden somewhere?


Highlight a person's name in the Lobby and if you have raced with them before in that Lobby, you can Vote to Kick them. The game will remember that vote until either you or that person leaves the Lobby. Theoretically, once a certain amount of votes have been cast against that person, that player gets kicked. The votes are registered, but not shown to anyone to prevent "vote riding".

If a Turn 10 member uses Vote to Kick on a player, that player gets kicked immediately.

Rank: On the Podium
#25 Posted : Friday, January 1, 2016 8:27:03 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Benkid 08 Go to Quoted Post
So am I right in thinking the vote to kick works but it's hidden? Could somebody explain.

I know how to vote someone to kick but how do people get to vote? I've never been asked to vote to kick someone, is it just hidden somewhere?


Yea it's there but it's hidden.

To vote someone out, the majority of the lobby has to select the player's name and vote. You wont get prompted if a player is receiving votes. You basically just have to hope everyone is taking the time to vote the person out...which doesn't happen.
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