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Rank: C-Class Racing License
#126 Posted : Tuesday, March 22, 2016 6:12:01 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PervasiveFall8 Go to Quoted Post
Dodgy. I think you'll be stuck, if I remember you were fairly fast.

Yes technically it's possible to move down but I think (not positive) that the boundaries of pinnacle and elite were moved to get more equal lobby sizes.

So if you made it into pinnacle before your probably here to stay. Hope to see you on the track at some point.

Good luck


Thanks mate for the reply. I guess I just need to put in some decent practice! The game is feeling like new again, so I'm sure after time I'll find my groove again.

I might focus on Rivals and Career for a bit until I'm feeling more comfortable etc.

Rank: R-Class Racing License
#127 Posted : Thursday, March 24, 2016 7:18:12 PM(UTC)
If you keep quitting league races it will demote you. It lowers your truskill.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#128 Posted : Friday, March 25, 2016 1:41:22 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: leetorts Go to Quoted Post
If you keep quitting league races it will demote you. It lowers your truskill.


That's good. But can Trueskill lower without playing. Or did T10 change the boundaries again of the leagues ? I didn't saw anything of that. It not so nice to promote or demote if there is no change of Truskill.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
#129 Posted : Friday, March 25, 2016 9:34:02 AM(UTC)
No, not playing in the leagues will not demote you. If you finish in the back half of the pack truskill goes down, if you finish in the top half truskill goes up. I think it also takes into account how clean you drive but I am not sure. There is soooo much corner cutting in Elite ghost leagues, which makes me think it is just finishing position.

Edited by user Friday, March 25, 2016 9:37:19 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#130 Posted : Friday, March 25, 2016 9:53:07 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: leetorts Go to Quoted Post
No, not playing in the leagues will not demote you. If you finish in the back half of the pack truskill goes down, if you finish in the top half truskill goes up. I think it also takes into account how clean you drive but I am not sure. There is soooo much corner cutting in Elite ghost leagues, which makes me think it is just finishing position.

I'm not 100% sure that not playing might not demote you. The TrueSkill documentation mentions that it'll slightly increase the uncertainty when doing calculations (see the second paragraph of "How to Update Skills" in the detailed documentation). If this uncertainty is also updated when calculating leaderboards, which are based on a conservative skill estimate (see "How to Build a Leaderboard" in the previously mentioned detailed docs), then you could be demoted. Haven't yet found anything to confirm this, though.

A couple of other things:
  1. TrueSkill doesn't consider if you drive cleanly, it only considers where you place relative to others.
  2. Top/bottom half of the pack doesn't determine increase/decrease. For multiplayer environments like Forza 6, your new TrueSkill is calculated from the individual wins/losses against all your opponents. If your TrueSkill is much lower than all your opponents, you might gain TrueSkill even though you finish towards the back of the pack because all your losses are regarded as "unsurprising" and your wins are not, so the latter makes a bigger impact on your new TrueSkill.

Rank: Driver's Permit
#131 Posted : Friday, March 25, 2016 10:39:20 AM(UTC)
Division ranking is determined by where you finish (Hidden Trueskill) at the end of race. If you finish in the top half of the pack you gain trueskill points, and if you finish in the back half you lose points.

How does quitters factor into this calculation? So if 20 people are racing at the start, and 6 people quit, do I still only have to finish in the top 10 to be considered for a trueskill gain?

I think a lot of people abuse the quit system and have been in races where over half the racers drop out over time. In my opinion they should be penalized or in the very least the payouts for league points should still reflect you beating them. I understand people have connection issues but if you actually accelerate over the start line it should count you in no matter what, AFK, disconnections, rage quits, etc. Fixing how Trueskill and League points are calculated would most likely deter quitters and still reward those who finish the race no matter what happens.

Also another poster suggested displaying a league point reward breakdown, this should be done as well. BUT back to Trueskill, how do quitters affect this?
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#132 Posted : Friday, March 25, 2016 6:46:18 PM(UTC)
Most people quit because they have been wrecked and not because they are losing. The back of pack can be a nightmare and full of morons. It get to points it's not worth the frustration. I don't blame anybody for quitting. BUT everybody shold receive points for beating dnf players.

Rank: Racing Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#133 Posted : Saturday, March 26, 2016 3:13:14 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: GameroftheBeer Go to Quoted Post
Division ranking is determined by where you finish (Hidden Trueskill) at the end of race. If you finish in the top half of the pack you gain trueskill points, and if you finish in the back half you lose points.

Your "top half/bottom half" assumption only holds if everyone's skill is roughly equal. Here is a link to MS' TrueSkill calculator set up so it roughly simulates a Pinnacle division league race[1] where someone with a lower ranking (named "Fabian") races 7 other highly skilled drivers (not the best of matches, but it might simply be early in the day so that's the only match available). As you can see, Fabian finishes 6th, so he's in the bottom half but still gains TrueSkill (note that both the conservative TrueSkill increases from 42 to 43, and his mean (rho) value goes up).

Originally Posted by: GameroftheBeer Go to Quoted Post
How does quitters factor into this calculation? So if 20 people are racing at the start, and 6 people quit, do I still only have to finish in the top 10 to be considered for a trueskill gain?

Based on how I read the TrueSkill FAQ, quitting forfeits the game (see the 4th question under "Team Games"), they point out how other possibilities would be unfair (note that a Forza race of 24 racers can be seen as 24 teams of 1 player each).

Whether you gain or lose TrueSkill depends on who you beat and who you lose to.

Footnotes:
1: Based on this response from RBW Triton to this question from PJTierney about where the thresholds are, I put the Pinnacle threshold somewhere above 40.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#134 Posted : Monday, April 4, 2016 5:13:13 AM(UTC)
Does having assists turned on prevent you from going from Elite to Pinnacle? I've been wondering cause typically I end up in the first four places in a race unless there is some wrecking involved. But I am in Elite since forever. And I would like to stay there, so I'm wondering if assists are part of the progression system.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#135 Posted : Monday, April 4, 2016 5:18:49 AM(UTC)
No.

League position uses TrueSkill, which is based purely on results.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#136 Posted : Tuesday, April 26, 2016 8:28:04 PM(UTC)
I was racing in the spec league and I heard some folks discussing promotion from one division to another. I couldn't get into the conversation, because the chat was messing up, but I heard them talking about how they "saw" that they were about to be promoted to the next league. They were also discussing criteria on how to get promoted/demoted.
I have searched to the best of my abilities to find this information, but it doesn't appear to be available. Can anyone tell me if there is a place to review my personal status within a division? Is there promotion eligibility criteria available? I only ask because I would like to know what I am doing right and what I need to work on, if I want to get promoted. I may be on my way to demotion, but I wouldn't know, and couldn't adjust to prevent it.
It's not a big deal, but if it's available I would appreciate someone pointing me in the right direction.

Thanks

Peace
Fast is NOT celebrating a win after bumping your opponents off the track, or cutting corners.
Fast is overtaking your opponents, without incident, while staying within the regulation boundaries of the track.
Rank: X-Class Racing License
#137 Posted : Tuesday, April 26, 2016 10:03:48 PM(UTC)


As far as I know it's based on your Trueskill level, which isn't visible.

The only way to get promoted is to win against others with a higher trueskill rank ( which you have no way of knowing who they are )

Or win a lot in your league ( people with a smiliar trueskill rank )
Rank: A-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#138 Posted : Tuesday, April 26, 2016 11:12:24 PM(UTC)
You tell if you're about to be promoted or relegated if there are unraced leagues on the league select screen, as they'll be updated to your new division as soon as you hit the trueskill threshold.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#139 Posted : Wednesday, April 27, 2016 5:49:00 AM(UTC)
It would be nice to able to see our own truskill rank and the rank of others in the lobby. (like Forza 2)

Edited by user Wednesday, April 27, 2016 6:07:56 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#140 Posted : Wednesday, April 27, 2016 11:54:16 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: o Mike V o Go to Quoted Post
It would be nice to able to see our own truskill rank and the rank of others in the lobby. (like Forza 2)


Ah yes, the good old days! When racing was fun.

Edited by user Wednesday, April 27, 2016 11:54:56 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: R-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#141 Posted : Wednesday, April 27, 2016 12:18:33 PM(UTC)
I sort of like the idea of seeing the truskill but maybe not publically. This will be exploited like everything else. People will only go in lobbies where everyone has a lower truskill than them so they can win.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#142 Posted : Wednesday, April 27, 2016 12:34:36 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: leetorts Go to Quoted Post
I sort of like the idea of seeing the truskill but maybe not publically. This will be exploited like everything else. People will only go in lobbies where everyone has a lower truskill than them so they can win.

I agree. If it were to be made available, it should be private. To be used as a tool to help one improve, not as a way for players to be segregated in multiplayer lobbies. The division ranking is more than enough (possibly too much)of a segregation, in my opinion.

Peace
Fast is NOT celebrating a win after bumping your opponents off the track, or cutting corners.
Fast is overtaking your opponents, without incident, while staying within the regulation boundaries of the track.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#143 Posted : Wednesday, April 27, 2016 12:37:19 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: leetorts Go to Quoted Post
I sort of like the idea of seeing the truskill but maybe not publically. This will be exploited like everything else. People will only go in lobbies where everyone has a lower truskill than them so they can win.




If someone is really that desperate to win then they will be looking for multiplayer hoppers with mostly low level players anyway. Showing truskill won't hurt anything.

Edited by user Wednesday, April 27, 2016 1:32:26 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#144 Posted : Wednesday, April 27, 2016 12:51:20 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: leetorts Go to Quoted Post
I sort of like the idea of seeing the truskill but maybe not publically. This will be exploited like everything else. People will only go in lobbies where everyone has a lower truskill than them so they can win.


I personally would look for lobbys with higher ranked people, people who know how to race. For me racing isn't all about winning, it's about having fun with people I enjoy racing with. If I raced only with the people I could choose to race with I'd rarely win but I know I'd have some great battles. Don't get me wrong winning is great but only when it's deserved.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
 2 users liked this post.
#145 Posted : Wednesday, April 27, 2016 1:14:50 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Rich J 81 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: leetorts Go to Quoted Post
I sort of like the idea of seeing the truskill but maybe not publically. This will be exploited like everything else. People will only go in lobbies where everyone has a lower truskill than them so they can win.


I personally would look for lobbys with higher ranked people, people who know how to race. For me racing isn't all about winning, it's about having fun with people I enjoy racing with. If I raced only with the people I could choose to race with I'd rarely win but I know I'd have some great battles. Don't get me wrong winning is great but only when it's deserved.


Agreed. Some of the best sessions I've had in Forza were when I never made it into the top 3 all night. Finishing 7th of 20 after some close racing is hugely satisfying when you know everyone behind you is fast, and beats the hell out of finishing 1st in a lobby full of players who barely know the track.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#146 Posted : Wednesday, April 27, 2016 1:35:33 PM(UTC)
100 points for last place
200 for 2nd last...
You also get 100 extra points for everyone you beat that has a high LV
Note that you may be 10th out of 15, but if the 5 players behind you quit the race, you are last.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#147 Posted : Wednesday, April 27, 2016 2:15:29 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: o Mike V o Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: leetorts Go to Quoted Post
I sort of like the idea of seeing the truskill but maybe not publically. This will be exploited like everything else. People will only go in lobbies where everyone has a lower truskill than them so they can win.




If someone is really that desperate to win then they will be looking for multiplayer hoppers with mostly low level players anyway. Showing truskill won't hurt anything.


Yes, they could look for lower driver level, but that doesn't represent how good someone is. Just like the league leaderboards, it's based on how much someone plays the game.
I have raced against a level 25 who dominated and a level 1078 who was horrible and spent most of his time wrecking people.

The true skill level should reflect a drivers capabilities not how much grinding they do. At least that's how it reads.

Peace
Fast is NOT celebrating a win after bumping your opponents off the track, or cutting corners.
Fast is overtaking your opponents, without incident, while staying within the regulation boundaries of the track.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#148 Posted : Wednesday, April 27, 2016 6:37:47 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: leetorts Go to Quoted Post
No, not playing in the leagues will not demote you. If you finish in the back half of the pack truskill goes down, if you finish in the top half truskill goes up. I think it also takes into account how clean you drive but I am not sure. There is soooo much corner cutting in Elite ghost leagues, which makes me think it is just finishing position.


Elite is a complete joke as are the league system with more than 50% cutting even with the easiest car to drive ( 08 viper). Just got punted from 2nd place because I didn't cut the first corner of Bugatti. LEAGUES are no different than regular hoppers now. .THANKS ALOT TURN10.
What a joke at how many in Elite can't even keep the 08 viper from losing control on a straight.
I guess if your at least 5 years old and had a tricycle. ..then you are promoted to Elite.


I guess I was wrong to hope that leagues would mean at leat 75% of the guys having some sort of Racecraft. You want to cut to get ahead..if you need the ego boost I won't care as long as you don't wreck everyone doing it.

So much for this week..sigh

Oh and more on topic. .I'm pretty sure you can cut corners to win and move up the divisions quickly since truskill can't recognize clean from dirty laps. Just lap time and who you beat ranked higher than you.

Edited by user Wednesday, April 27, 2016 6:46:17 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#149 Posted : Wednesday, April 27, 2016 11:19:30 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Old Hippie 1 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: o Mike V o Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: leetorts Go to Quoted Post
I sort of like the idea of seeing the truskill but maybe not publically. This will be exploited like everything else. People will only go in lobbies where everyone has a lower truskill than them so they can win.




If someone is really that desperate to win then they will be looking for multiplayer hoppers with mostly low level players anyway. Showing truskill won't hurt anything.


Yes, they could look for lower driver level, but that doesn't represent how good someone is. Just like the league leaderboards, it's based on how much someone plays the game.
I have raced against a level 25 who dominated and a level 1078 who was horrible and spent most of his time wrecking people.

The true skill level should reflect a drivers capabilities not how much grinding they do. At least that's how it reads.

Peace

You're reading it wrong. Grinding doesn't help your TrueSkill score at all, it has no concept of how many races you've done. A really fast guy who has done just 20 races and beaten lots of other really fast guys will have a higher TrueSkill score than a mediocre driver who has done 1000 races but gets beaten all the time.
Rank: Racing Permit
#150 Posted : Friday, April 29, 2016 6:02:18 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Zedeeyen Go to Quoted Post
Grinding doesn't help your TrueSkill score at all, it has no concept of how many races you've done.

Every time you finish a game your TrueSkill rating is updated, and it consists of two numbers: the mean skill estimate μ, and the uncertainty σ (these two describe the Gaussian curve that models your skill). If you've done a lot of races, your uncertainty is most likely very small. So while it doesn't have a variable for how many races you've done, the number affects your TrueSkill rating.
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