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Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#26 Posted : Thursday, October 8, 2015 10:18:21 AM(UTC)
just read this entire thread....now I need a nap because my little pea brain hurts.

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Rank: C-Class Racing License
#27 Posted : Thursday, October 8, 2015 10:41:57 AM(UTC)
Again no where did I say it replaces tuning for feel. The formula is just there to create a strong balance.

In any case use it, don't use it it's your choice im not forcing it on anyone.

It took me hours to work it out. Using the parameters I could get my hands on from the vehicle data and telemetry.

For those interested in trying my formula tune for comparison try the F40 I shared.
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#28 Posted : Friday, October 9, 2015 1:55:32 PM(UTC)
I will give it a go tonight. Does the tune have the numbers you came up with using your formula or did you fine tune it after? if so how much tweaking
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#29 Posted : Friday, October 9, 2015 8:59:21 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: IR Madman Go to Quoted Post
I will give it a go tonight. Does the tune have the numbers you came up with using your formula or did you fine tune it after? if so how much tweaking


The F40 is just tuned with the numbers from the formula. Damping and ARB were tweaked to feel

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#30 Posted : Friday, October 9, 2015 9:39:18 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: BIG W0RM 80 Go to Quoted Post
You all understand nothing and LOL to the guy using math that said he tuned cars as well as I did.

Downforce is also a constant in Forza, it doesn't increase or decrease depending on your speed. It's always 400lbs or driving vehicles on the limit would get you more grip, not less much like an F1 driver getting more out of the same car than someone who couldn't keep the tires warm.

Also this game doesn't factor in suspension travel based upon the car. When you upgrade a suspension on a stock vehicle that vehicle has the same generic suspension underneath it as every other car that has been upgraded. The Honda and the Nissan and the Ford all turn into a Forza. It's why the same settings (or area on the slider) work on nearly every single car.


Thank you W0RM for stepping in and explaining that. It's clear and simply put; and, you beat me to it.

Originally Posted by: About500Rabbits Go to Quoted Post
Again no where did I say it replaces tuning for feel. The formula is just there to create a strong balance.

In any case use it, don't use it it's your choice I'm not forcing it on anyone.

It took me hours to work it out. Using the parameters I could get my hands on from the vehicle data and telemetry.

For those interested in trying my formula tune for comparison try the F40 I shared.


I'm sorry that you spent hours working this out. If this works for you, then by all means keep using it.

I don't think it will work for me. I don't want to put this much time into a base tune for a car because even after I use your formula I would have to drive the car, then make some changes, and now your formula is invalid. After adding upgrades you should always drive the car before applying any for of base tune. That said, as W0RM pointed out, once you apply a Forza Race Upgrade the car basically becomes a Forza manufacturer and you can use the same basic tune - slider location, not numbers - on any vehicle. It's how people like Raceboy77 get so many tunes out so quickly and the cars are all fairly drivable. Sure, this doesn't take into account variations for different tracks but it does provide a good base tune.

As for base tune formulas, between the Forza 4 forums, the Forza 5 forums, the Forza Horizon 2 forums, and now the Forza 6 forums there are many threads containing volumes of formulas, links, calculators, and apps that can provide you with a base tune that is relevant for Forza Motorsport. Why introduce a new one that is more complicated and irrelevant?

I can appreciate what you've taken the time to do. If you were setting up a car to tackle real world race tracks it would be more relevant but this is just a video game and you've gone so far over the game's capabilities it does not apply.

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#31 Posted : Tuesday, October 13, 2015 4:38:13 AM(UTC)
ok so base tune suspension made easy, and gets the same result. total weight of car is 2400kg as a figure for this example.

I look at next the balance, say 53% to front.

So now i use 2400X53/100=1272.

Now i divide that by 2, gives me 636kg for front springs.

I then do the same for the rear but 47 instead of 53. gives me 564kg.

That is my base and i usually end up within 5kg either way depending on wheel spin. The rest is all anti roll bars and alike.

The origional method is much the same really i n its essence, but fancy terms and X or Y make people feel smart i guess.
Rank: Driver's License
#32 Posted : Wednesday, October 14, 2015 1:41:46 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MrGr3tsch Go to Quoted Post
ok so base tune suspension made easy, and gets the same result. total weight of car is 2400kg as a figure for this example.

I look at next the balance, say 53% to front.

So now i use 2400X53/100=1272.

Now i divide that by 2, gives me 636kg for front springs.

I then do the same for the rear but 47 instead of 53. gives me 564kg.

That is my base and i usually end up within 5kg either way depending on wheel spin. The rest is all anti roll bars and alike.

The origional method is much the same really i n its essence, but fancy terms and X or Y make people feel smart i guess.



Sorry i made a boo boo. I then add the amount of downforce to front and rear that i am running. so 100kg to front would get 736kg. I find this works on allcars except for the rediculously hard to tune rear engine cars at 42% front as these cars have no physics what so ever
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#33 Posted : Friday, October 16, 2015 1:36:17 PM(UTC)
Very nice, but I have a couple questions.
Originally Posted by: About500Rabbits Go to Quoted Post

F= chosen frequency
MS= sprung mass (kgs)
MR= Suspension travel
K= Spring rate

K=4 x pi squared x F squared x (square root MS x MR squared

Frequency = 0.5-5+
Low downforce saloon = 0.5-1.5
Med downforce sports car = 1.5-3
High downforce racer = 3-5+


1. How Do I know what frequency to choose? Or how do I know which cars fall under low, medium or high?
2. Let's say I choose Low downforce, how do I know what number between 0.5-1.5 I should choose?

Originally Posted by: About500Rabbits Go to Quoted Post

Pt2.
Suspension travel you looking fully for fully compressed (bottomed out) usually between 1.25-1.45 excluding trucks.


3. What unit does the suspension travel need to be in?
4. Does ride height affect suspension travel?

Originally Posted by: About500Rabbits Go to Quoted Post

4 x PI squared x 2.5 squared x square root (284)x 1.45 squared =4839.9


5. I did this equation on my calculator and got 8,733.6. Did I miss something?
6. What unit is my final number in?
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#34 Posted : Friday, October 16, 2015 2:22:33 PM(UTC)
Very nice, but I have a couple questions.

Questions answered
Originally Posted by: About500Rabbits Go to Quoted Post

F= chosen frequency
MS= sprung mass (kgs)
MR= Suspension travel
K= Spring rate

K=4 x pi squared x F squared x (square root MS x MR squared

Frequency = 0.5-5+
Low downforce saloon = 0.5-1.5
Med downforce sports car = 1.5-3
High downforce racer = 3-5+


1. How Do I know what frequency to choose?

saloons and city cars (Audi A4, S1) are low downforce, stuff like road going ferraris are considered medium downforce and then your track only cars like the gt3 and Gtlm cars are classed high downforce.

2. Let's say I choose Low downforce, how do I know what number between 0.5-1.5 I should choose?
The lower the frequency the softer your springs.

Originally Posted by: About500Rabbits Go to Quoted Post

Pt2.
Suspension travel you looking fully for fully compressed (bottomed out) usually between 1.25-1.45 excluding trucks.


3. What unit does the suspension travel need to be in?
Doesn't matter too much a saloon will have more travel than a sport or race car so 1.25(race car)/1.35(sports car)/1.45(saloon/hot hatch/ superminis)
4. Does ride height affect suspension travel?
Not that I'm aware of, but if you're running a lower ride height you need to increase the frequency to stop it bottoming out.

Originally Posted by: About500Rabbits Go to Quoted Post

4 x PI squared x 2.5 squared x square root (284)x 1.45 squared =4839.9


5. I did this equation on my calculator and got 8,733.6. Did I miss something?
..... Uhhhh sorry that's my tax figure for the year... 2 calculators going at the same time lol
#looks abit confused

6. What unit is my final number in?
Divide the final number by 10.

Edited by user Friday, October 16, 2015 2:23:05 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Formerly SparcoRacing91

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#35 Posted : Friday, October 16, 2015 3:00:22 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: gtFOOTw Go to Quoted Post
This is all very interesting, but I'm no mathematician. Isn't the "square root of PI squared" just PI?


"...mmmmm...pie...ahhahhhh"
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#36 Posted : Friday, October 16, 2015 7:13:18 PM(UTC)
Many thanks to MrGr3tsch for a brief summarization of what will work for those of us without engineering degrees. I used his formula and have found it VERY effective.
The rest of this thread rant was MOST entertaining.
It IS only a game - FAR from being the real deal.
I read the mention of pie .... yes, 1st hockey intermission ...... pie time!
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#37 Posted : Saturday, October 17, 2015 3:08:56 AM(UTC)
This is all amazing information that someday I hope to understand, as far as the math part goes. I will never be one of the fastest and I have a rough time with math. I can understand the cause and effect, just when the numbers get put in I can't keep focus. My sister has a learning disability with math, most likely me too. I tune to what let's me drive how I want to drive. I love big muscle that has great turn in and just that little hint of oversteer as you accelerate out of a turn. I still tune a lot like I did in 4, changing some stuff here and there, but I don't think I will ever be able to grasp the math like you guys. Hats off to you all that can do all that for sure!!
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#38 Posted : Saturday, October 17, 2015 3:16:20 AM(UTC)
Why do people have to slate other peoples ways of getting around tuning??
Especially from so called veteran Forza players! Grow up!!!!
Work Hard, Play Hard. Formally known as Elusive Hedgy.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#39 Posted : Saturday, October 17, 2015 3:37:58 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Elusive Hedgy Go to Quoted Post
Why do people have to slate other peoples ways of getting around tuning??
Especially from so called veteran Forza players! Grow up!!!!


Just for the record, I was being 100% sincere. Whatever works for whomever, man. I just literally can't do the math. Incase that was me that offended you, somehow.
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#40 Posted : Saturday, October 17, 2015 5:53:16 AM(UTC)
I think people misunderstood, it seems as though they think their criticism upsets me.

At the end of the day I've posted the formula for the optimum ride stiffness using the parameters in game which 9/10 aren't too far from Forzas defaults. If people want to use it great, if not then I'm really not bothered. I shared abit of knowledge in the numbers game.

Dividing the cars weight by 4 and using that as your Spring setting isn't ideal but if it works for you then great use it.

some tune solely to feel others just move the sliders into the same positions as on all of their cars and again if that work then fantastic.

I personally use it to create the proper balance then fine tune it for performance.
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#41 Posted : Saturday, October 17, 2015 10:13:11 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: xDeaDxZeppLiNx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Elusive Hedgy Go to Quoted Post
Why do people have to slate other peoples ways of getting around tuning??
Especially from so called veteran Forza players! Grow up!!!!


Just for the record, I was being 100% sincere. Whatever works for whomever, man. I just literally can't do the math. Incase that was me that offended you, somehow.


No it wasn't you!

Work Hard, Play Hard. Formally known as Elusive Hedgy.
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#42 Posted : Saturday, October 17, 2015 10:21:33 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: About500Rabbits Go to Quoted Post
I think people misunderstood, it seems as though they think their criticism upsets me.

At the end of the day I've posted the formula for the optimum ride stiffness using the parameters in game which 9/10 aren't too far from Forzas defaults. If people want to use it great, if not then I'm really not bothered. I shared abit of knowledge in the numbers game.

Dividing the cars weight by 4 and using that as your Spring setting isn't ideal but if it works for you then great use it.

some tune solely to feel others just move the sliders into the same positions as on all of their cars and again if that work then fantastic.

I personally use it to create the proper balance then fine tune it for performance.


Fair play to you for sharing what works for you! I just dont like how some people have jumped on you for it!
Its a community and we are suppose to be here to offer advice to improve if its there to offer.


Work Hard, Play Hard. Formally known as Elusive Hedgy.
Rank: On the Podium
#43 Posted : Tuesday, October 20, 2015 9:48:59 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: About500Rabbits Go to Quoted Post


At the end of the day I've posted the formula for the optimum ride stiffness using the parameters in game which 9/10 aren't too far from Forzas defaults.


Haven't read the full thread but I have a question: how do you know that these are the optimal settings? Is there some visible way of knowing (laptime/telemetry) that these settings are optimal and that other ranges provide less than ideal results?

Genuinely curious.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#44 Posted : Tuesday, October 20, 2015 10:30:24 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PJTierney Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: About500Rabbits Go to Quoted Post


At the end of the day I've posted the formula for the optimum ride stiffness using the parameters in game which 9/10 aren't too far from Forzas defaults.


Haven't read the full thread but I have a question: how do you know that these are the optimal settings? Is there some visible way of knowing (laptime/telemetry) that these settings are optimal and that other ranges provide less than ideal results?

Genuinely curious.


Well telemetry read outs I'm getting are much smoother and much more progressive with each car I've tested the formula with, the cars are much more drivable on the limit and are serenely tame. The grip levels achieved are just crazy. In terms of lap times I'm shaving on average about 3 seconds off the times set in the pretuned state.

ill put it another way. Go take out the stock BMW #5 eBay motors 125i M sport, run a few laps in that stock then go and download my tune and give that a go then post your opinion on the difference. Just search for RBBTS in the description
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#45 Posted : Tuesday, October 20, 2015 2:01:32 PM(UTC)
Good posting Rabbits. It's always good to get fresh ideas when it comes to Forza tuning. I tested your calculations at length. I used the same car on the same track and ran numerous laps. I will say that your way of tuning springs does seem to be slightly more stable. But honestly not by much at all. I think that most beginners and intermediate drivers aren't really going to notice a great deal of difference, but that's ok. The lap times on your setup compared to a setup I use are very close, almost identical in fact. What I did notice with your setup though was a little less tire scrub, a little less dive and a little less squat. Cornering felt ever so slightly smoother, top speed didn't increase, cornering speed was about the same. In my limited opinion, your setup may provide a little bit more stability, but overall there was not much difference if anything in performance. I will admit though that only testing spring setups may not provide similar results as to tuning the entire car and making the same comparison. I will say I liked your line of thinking and you might be on to something good. I will most definitely fully tune a car with this spring setup and see if there is any difference in the end. Good post!

My methods of testing: same car on same track, stock tune settings, differently tuned spring settings.
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#46 Posted : Monday, October 26, 2015 1:06:01 AM(UTC)
Hey, i know this thread has gone quiet for a couple of days, but with the telemetry being used for the basis of your info, Rabbits, is there a thread or something that can kinda break down how to read what's what on the screen? I know tire temp, and camber, and all the stuff thats right there, but like the friction graph, or suspension offset screen, ...and how to take what that is showing and fix from there. I kinda feel like i have fallen down the rabbit hole of putting too much thought into everything, now i am getting confused by numbers and formulas. Just curious.

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#47 Posted : Monday, October 26, 2015 5:27:08 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: xDeaDxZeppLiNx Go to Quoted Post
Hey, i know this thread has gone quiet for a couple of days, but with the telemetry being used for the basis of your info, Rabbits, is there a thread or something that can kinda break down how to read what's what on the screen? I know tire temp, and camber, and all the stuff thats right there, but like the friction graph, or suspension offset screen, ...and how to take what that is showing and fix from there. I kinda feel like i have fallen down the rabbit hole of putting too much thought into everything, now i am getting confused by numbers and formulas. Just curious.



Right so the best version of the formula I've posted is
4xpi squared X frequency X square root weight per corner (in KG) X travel squared. That gives you your "optimum Spring stiffness"

With the Offset you can to use as much of the travel as possible without bottoming out, endo on the breaks, wheel stand launches and the rest of it. If you look at what's going on when you set you springs to fully stuff the car becomes snappy and bouncy, it'll also relate to the friction graphs in that you'll see much smaller circles which shows you're generating little mechanical grip.
Do the opposite and you'll find much more pitch and roll through weight transfer which will load the 2 tyres the weight is being transferred to while unloading the others. This is just as undesirable.

What you need to be doing is setting your springs up to balance and and make that tranfsfer of weight more progressive and balance the grip levels between the tyres. We do that using the Bump, ARBs and then Rebound in small increments.

So to start with you'll be increasing your bump and decreasing the ARBs in equals. 1 click on the bump is equal to 2 on the ARB. Once your read outs are nice and steady, you'll then start to increase your rebound.

Bump stiffness stops the wheel smashing the arches, rebound pounds the wheel back into the ground. If you run a stiffer bump you want a softer rebound as you need less force to push the wheel back into the ground or you'll have a set up that's too stiff and skims the surface because you effectively shorten the travel, which will again relate to the friction graph.

You want smooth pulses on the offset, and stability on the friction graph. Body roll isn't a bad thing so long as it's controlled. It's important to have the right level of camber for the car to roll onto.
More roll means more camber and a lower caster less roll means less camber and a higher caster to maximise mechanical grip. If you want a good example of what I mean have a look at the read outs on my Ferrari 250 GT Lusso I've put up for testing as the NBR "need a fast driver" thread.

You'll find 3 versions of the car 1 on race tyres 2 on stock, all 3 have different set ups to make the most of the grip available, all have minimal aero.

Edited by user Monday, October 26, 2015 5:28:35 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Formerly SparcoRacing91

Owner of TopCenterRacing UK

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#48 Posted : Monday, October 26, 2015 5:30:19 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: aka Rand0m Her0 Go to Quoted Post
Good posting Rabbits. It's always good to get fresh ideas when it comes to Forza tuning. I tested your calculations at length. I used the same car on the same track and ran numerous laps. I will say that your way of tuning springs does seem to be slightly more stable. But honestly not by much at all. I think that most beginners and intermediate drivers aren't really going to notice a great deal of difference, but that's ok. The lap times on your setup compared to a setup I use are very close, almost identical in fact. What I did notice with your setup though was a little less tire scrub, a little less dive and a little less squat. Cornering felt ever so slightly smoother, top speed didn't increase, cornering speed was about the same. In my limited opinion, your setup may provide a little bit more stability, but overall there was not much difference if anything in performance. I will admit though that only testing spring setups may not provide similar results as to tuning the entire car and making the same comparison. I will say I liked your line of thinking and you might be on to something good. I will most definitely fully tune a car with this spring setup and see if there is any difference in the end. Good post!

My methods of testing: same car on same track, stock tune settings, differently tuned spring settings.

How did you get on with a full tune??
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#49 Posted : Monday, October 26, 2015 9:21:52 AM(UTC)
Upon completion of a full tune, I found my times to be a little slower actually when compared to tuning a different way. The car did handle well but in terms of being an "optimal suspension setting", i would have to lean towards maybe. I think your way can absolutely work for some people. For others it may not. Such is this game in general. Your way of tuning may work on certain cars and may not work on others. If I was advising someone on what method to use, I would most definitely tell people to try a couple of different methods and see what works best for them on each car. I do think that your method can be good at times. But I also think other methods can produce faster times. So, all in all, I think your method is 50/50 on if it will be optimal for people.
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#50 Posted : Monday, October 26, 2015 10:43:35 AM(UTC)
Feels that im back in school and i've been out of it for the better part of 25 years....what ever happened to simple math?.....lol....now, can you EXPERTS explain it in simple terms?......i need some smart water!!!!!
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