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Rank: Driver's Permit
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#1 Posted : Sunday, April 12, 2015 6:01:30 PM(UTC)
First-time poster. I’ve been getting back into FH2 and would love some feedback on my first tune. I’ve read a ton of the awesome documentation on this forum and spent most of today tuning this car. There’s a few “must-have’s” for me: the supercharger and the street hood. I just think those are really cool and want them on my car. But everything else is up for discussion. I’ve shared the tune in case you want to try it out:
Keyword 1: Circuit
Keyword 2: Average
Description: Aptos
My GT (creator): Aptos

Without further ado: here’s the car, build, & tune. I’m going for a circuit racer, not so much off road.

Car: 1969 Dodge Charger R/T

Performance Index (#): 800
Class: A
Speed: 6.4
Handling: 7.6
Acceleration: 8.3
Launch: 8.4
Braking: 9.4

Drive: RWD
Power: 529 HP
Torque: 534 LB-FT
Displacement: 6.1 L
Weight of Car: 3416 LBS
Weight Distribution (Front): 52%

Build:

Conversion
Engine Swap: 6.2L V8
Drivetrain Swap: Stock
Aspiration Conversion: Positive Displacement Supercharger

Engine (all stock)
Air Filter: Stock
Fuel System: Stock
Ignition: Stock
Exhaust: Stock
Camshaft: Stock
Valves: Stock
Displacement: Stock
Pistons and Compression: Stock
Aspiration: Stock
Intercooler: Stock
Flywheel: Stock

Platform & Handling
Brakes: Race
Springs & Dampers: Race
Front Anti-roll Bars: Race
Rear Anti-roll Bars: Race
Chassis Reinforcement and Roll Cage: Race
Weight Reduction: Sport

Drivetrain
Clutch: Stock
Transmission: Street
Driveline: Stock
Differential: Race

Tires and Rims
Tire Compound: Race
Rim Style: Sport - Profil 5 by Fikse
Front Tires: 245/40R18
Rear Tires: 295/35R18

Aero and Appearance
Front Bumper: Forza (Adjustable)
Rear Wing: Forza (Adjustable)
Hood / Bonnet: Forza (Street Hood)

Tune:

Tire Pressure
Front (PSI): 29.0
Rear (PSI): 29.0

Alignment
Camber Front: -2.5 °
Camber Rear: -2.0 °
Toe Front: 0.2 °
Toe Rear: 0.0 °
Front Caster (Angle): 5.7 ∟

Anti-Roll Bars
Anti-Roll Bars Front: 14.20
Anti-Roll Bars Rear: 16.20

Springs (lb/in)
Springs Front: 888.4
Springs Rear: 819.6
Front Ride Height (in): 7.6
Rear Ride Height (in): 7.6

Damping
Rebound (Front): 7.9
Rebound (Rear): 9.4
Bump (Front): 3.9
Bump (Rear): 4.7

Aero
Front Aero Downforce (LB): 100
Rear Aero Downforce (LB): 200

Brakes
Brakes (Balance): 48%
Brakes (Force): 200%

Differential
Acceleration (Rear): 25%
Deceleration (Rear): 10%
Rank: X-Class Racing License
#2 Posted : Sunday, April 12, 2015 10:48:29 PM(UTC)
Here is an opinion strictly looking at your post - I have not been on the game today, I have not downloaded or used your car, but I can offer some insights or question to ponder just looking at the Original Post.

Brakes: Race <--- Do you really need them. I do notice you have adjusted the pressure but really that only translates to you having to pull the trigger half as far to get the same effect. They add adjustable pressure, 1% efficiency increase (not a whole lot) and they don't typically drop a lot of weight. Can you get by without them and use the PI points elsewhere?

Chassis Reinforcement and Roll Cage: Race <--- Again, do you need it. Does it really hold the car together that much better than some fine tuning and careful driving inputs cannot fix? Does it lower the PI enough for you to take advantage of some good upgrades? How much does it increase the weight? What is the front weight bias without it - I'm guessing 54%?

Weight Reduction: Sport <-- You went race in so many other places, why not go Race here as well? You're in a fairly heavy car, does it benefit to leave it heavier because it has so much power and you kept it in RWD? I prefer AWD for online but that does not mean it is the only way to go. I do enjoy the RWD car as well but the weight is something to consider, as is the weight to power ratio.

Engine Upgrades: All Stock <--- What is the starting class for this car or is there no room for upgrades due to the Engine Swap and Supercharger? The power seems fine and it's not a bad motor so leaving things stock isn't an issue. If you do decide to upgrade or make changes I would always look at these engine upgrades first:
Exhaust - Air filter - Piston and Compression - Valves - Intake Manifold - Displacement
These upgrades provide a power increase and a weight decrease. It doesn't hurt to look at the aspiration conversion as well depending on what class you are going for or what you need for the car but keep in mind that the Race Aspiration Conversion adds weight.

Tire Compound: Race <--- You seem to be making a Grip tune in RWD with this car. Your car has plenty of power already an it ought to do fine. If you need to (or want to) add more power, you can always leave these at Sport and make some minor tuning changes or driving changes to assist with the rear end.

Tire Pressure: 29.0 PSI <--- Have you tried 28.0 PSI - I really like it and find it does very well in the game. If nothing else, I would make the Driven tyres have a 28.0 PSI pressure and the non-driven tyres can remain at 29.0 PSI. You shouldn't need understeer correction with tyre pressure in this car.

Toe (Rear): <--- May not be needed and you would need to test how it affect the car elsewhere but have you tried changing this any? Positive Toe values assist with turn in response and stability during cornering whereas negative Toe values create more straight line stability. I found on my Challenger SRT8 that Toe (Front) 0.3 and Toe (Rear) -0.5 worked really well. With the rest of the build it created a stable car that still responded well and does well in turns. This isn't something you need to change or mess with and you did say this was more for circuits than off-road but it if has any stability issues that cannot be fixed elsewhere, try changing your Toe a bit.

Differential Acceleration: 25% <--- Have you tried going higher with a value in the 50 - 60 percent range? This really depends on driving style, the power of the car, and how it puts that power down from the build. Lower values mean that you can be a littler more flexible with your throttle inputs and often time give it more gas more quickly when the front wheels are straight and you don't have to be concerned of spinning out. A higher value can also assist you with cornering and corner exit if used properly. There is a fine setting that helps with cornering and not spinning out - you must test and test and test and find it.

Hope this helps. To be completely honest with you: If I remember or look at this thread next time I get on the game, I will give your car a try. This may be some time though so I apologize I haven't been able to actually try it before giving you more feedback. My tune for the same vehicle in the few classes I have it in all use AWD so opening up my tune for your viewing would not necessarily help you out too much.

Good luck.

Rank: Racing Permit
#3 Posted : Friday, April 17, 2015 10:08:36 AM(UTC)
I agree that this car handles really well when set up as a all wheel drive.

But given the above build, all of the settings are a lot more stiff than they need to be. Also, you might want to try either lowering the front ride height or raising the back. also:

Front
Springs: 574.3
Rebound: 6.6
Bump: 4.4
Tire Press: 23

Rear
Springs: 527.5
Rebound: 6.6
Bump: 4.4
Tire Press: 23

Edited by user Friday, April 17, 2015 10:44:44 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: X-Class Racing License
#4 Posted : Monday, April 20, 2015 6:51:49 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: UnhipPompano697 Go to Quoted Post
I agree that this car handles really well when set up as a all wheel drive.

But given the above build, all of the settings are a lot more stiff than they need to be. Also, you might want to try either lowering the front ride height or raising the back. also:

Front
Springs: 574.3
Rebound: 6.6
Bump: 4.4
Tire Press: 23

Rear
Springs: 527.5
Rebound: 6.6
Bump: 4.4
Tire Press: 23


Tire Pressure of 23 PSI? It isn't much for off-road but for circuit racing and that seems it'd be a tad on the low side.
Rank: Racing Permit
#5 Posted : Monday, April 20, 2015 12:35:59 PM(UTC)
Try it :)
Rank: X-Class Racing License
#6 Posted : Monday, April 20, 2015 8:03:46 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: UnhipPompano697 Go to Quoted Post
Try it :)


Next time i get on, I will try it out.

I know there was a thread earlier with SpotTheKitty regarding tyre pressure. After much deliberation and experimenting I think they narrowed it done rather well. The lower pressures do tend to work depending on side wall height and what the set up is for. Kitty said that even as low as 22 is good to help prevent understeer and drive well on Storm Island and I assume that translates to off-road in general. I have personally also on occasion reduced pressure to help with understeer but often find there are better ways to do so that don't require a tyre pressure drop AND result in better handling all around.

I guess if you're doing lots of circuit racing, even on road, you have plenty of laps you can run to allow the tyres to heat up to a good operating temperature. I don't know about you, but if lap times and winning (point-to-point more so than circuit) are king, then 28.0 is the sweet spot according to SatNiteEduardo.
Rank: Racing Permit
#7 Posted : Tuesday, April 21, 2015 7:51:55 AM(UTC)
Most races are too short for high tire temp to be an issue. The long answer to the question lies in the Tire Patch. This is the area that touches the road, and the larger it is, the better the grip. the down side is that as the tire pressure goes down, you get more deformation of the tire, which can be countered by using a lower aspect ratio tire. I also find that the steering can be impacted, but around 29, for the Front ARB I get good response, and start most tunes with this and calculate what the balanced Rear ARB is.

Also, I am a Maverick when it comes to the game. I have my own spreadsheet to do my calculations. When I make a change, I adjust several settings at the same time. For example, if you were only to increase the Front Tire Pressure, the front would tend to slide earlier and grip less than the rear. Good way to deal with early over steer, but might make the car harder to handle and possibly spin out when drifting through a turn. I take the approach of finding a balance that I like, and apply it to all of my cars. That way, I can move up and down classes, switch cars and drive types but still anticipate how the car will behave to the controller.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#8 Posted : Tuesday, April 21, 2015 8:55:50 AM(UTC)
my only question would be about the downforce.
do you really need max downforce for an a class?

the car may kill it on a very small circuit but something point to point
might get left in the dust...

i agree with ppidrive about the cage, i would only use a cage on s classes and above.
you have enough engine to overcome the extra weight.
2009 Mustang GT/CS #1,260 of 1,705
#231 of 315 Vapor Silver Coupes
Flowmasters BBK Headers Comp Cams
Airaid CAI PowerStop Brakes Dyno Tune 325rwhp
Rank: X-Class Racing License
#9 Posted : Wednesday, April 22, 2015 6:34:43 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: XCELRATE Go to Quoted Post
my only question would be about the downforce.
do you really need max downforce for an a class?

the car may kill it on a very small circuit but something point to point
might get left in the dust...

i agree with ppidrive about the cage, i would only use a cage on s classes and above.
you have enough engine to overcome the extra weight.


Unless you plan on using this specifically on those pesky 30 - 45 second a lap circuits, the downforce is a bit over kill. There are some cars where the higher downforce does help, or works well as a grip tune, but rarely do I think it would be absolutely necessary for A class. When I'm testing a tune I like, I'll run whatever rivals event it is that I'm testing it on and then continue to run it against my own ghost. If I run rear down force and then race again with min. rear down force I will need to make a slight change in the tune to adjust for it and I may also need to slightly modify my driving inputs but it will have a faster time almost all of the time.

I would suggest max front aero and min rear aero.

Rank: Racing Permit
#10 Posted : Wednesday, April 22, 2015 6:55:27 AM(UTC)
The system allows you to save different configurations. Build them both. Run and race using both, and let the situation dictate which to chose for a race.

Remember that when using Aero, refer to how to maintain front rear balance. Too much rear will reduce the effect of the front. Too much in the front may result in the back end tending to break out.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#11 Posted : Wednesday, April 22, 2015 4:38:26 PM(UTC)
That template looks oddly familiar :)
Meow.
My completely open source tunes for: Forza Motorsport 5 & Forza Horizon 2.
Rank: Racing Legend
#12 Posted : Wednesday, April 22, 2015 11:50:11 PM(UTC)
Here is where I might start to test. Note I have not run this on the track but it would be something similar to what I would start with for tarmac.

Tire Pressure
Front (PSI): 30.5
Rear (PSI): 29.5

Alignment
Camber Front: -3.5
Camber Rear: -3.0 °
Toe Front: 0.2 °
Toe Rear: 0.0 °
Front Caster (Angle): 2.7 ∟

Anti-Roll Bars
Anti-Roll Bars Front: 14.20
Anti-Roll Bars Rear: 36.20

Springs (lb/in)
Springs Front: 588.4
Springs Rear: 519.6
Front Ride Height (in): 7.7
Rear Ride Height (in): 7.7

Damping
Rebound (Front): 9.4
Rebound (Rear): 9.4
Bump (Front): 1.9
Bump (Rear): 1.7

Aero
Front Aero Downforce (LB): 100
Rear Aero Downforce (LB): 75

Brakes
Brakes (Balance): 52%
Brakes (Force): 110%

Differential
Acceleration (Rear): 13%
Deceleration (Rear): 1%

Edited by user Wednesday, April 22, 2015 11:50:48 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Arcade mode - check matchmaking forum
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#13 Posted : Thursday, April 23, 2015 9:14:44 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SatNiteEduardo Go to Quoted Post
Here is where I might start to test. Note I have not run this on the track but it would be something similar to what I would start with for tarmac.

Tire Pressure
Front (PSI): 30.5
Rear (PSI): 29.5

Alignment
Camber Front: -3.5
Camber Rear: -3.0 °
Toe Front: 0.2 °
Toe Rear: 0.0 °
Front Caster (Angle): 2.7 ∟

Anti-Roll Bars
Anti-Roll Bars Front: 14.20
Anti-Roll Bars Rear: 36.20

Springs (lb/in)
Springs Front: 588.4
Springs Rear: 519.6
Front Ride Height (in): 7.7
Rear Ride Height (in): 7.7

Damping
Rebound (Front): 9.4
Rebound (Rear): 9.4
Bump (Front): 1.9
Bump (Rear): 1.7

Aero
Front Aero Downforce (LB): 100
Rear Aero Downforce (LB): 75

Brakes
Brakes (Balance): 52%
Brakes (Force): 110%

Differential
Acceleration (Rear): 13%
Deceleration (Rear): 1%


I don't understand some of this for a RWD build. Hopefully you can set me straight. :) I try to build my cars for stability because there's no rewinding during online races. So I try to make them handle all sorts of tracks with minimal fuss. That said...

Doesn't higher front tire pressure induce oversteer? I usually build RWD with front tire pressure 2-3 lbs below rear tire pressure and think it helps keep my car in a straight line.

Positive toe scares the hell out of me. I usually run negative toe in front and rear to avoid the dreaded snap oversteer.

No clue what caster does. Usually max it out at 7. Why'd you choose 2.7?

If there's enough ground clearance for cross country, and there usually is with a muscle car, I generally set front ride height lower than rear to generate downforce. Is that a valid game strategy?

High rear rebound damping also scares the hell out of me. I usually set it a full 2-3 points below front rebound to generate understeer and increase stability.

I like lower braking pressure because I run with ABS off so I don't like my brakes locking up at just the slightest tap of the trigger. That can cause instability when a gentle touch is needed.

I usually have front and rear aero set to minimums. In a RWD build I might put a few ticks on rear aero.

Springs seem a little stiff to me. In a roughly 3000 pound car with I'm guessing 55 percent front weight ratio, I'd expect something more along the lines of 375 front 300 rear.

Anyway, is my tuning logic sound? Or am I way off? Any feedback appreciated. Thanks.
Rank: Racing Legend
#14 Posted : Thursday, April 23, 2015 1:26:25 PM(UTC)
Sounds like you are using sim steering. I am using a controller with normal steering.

Ability to turn which is what I tune for is not the same as instability.

Like I say I have not tested the above but it is certainly where I would start testing.

The lower bump I use plus the accel brings some stability to it.

The real issue is whether it all works as a complete package.

In short my philosophy to being quick is when I get to the turns I need to carry as much speed through the turns as possible. To do that the car must turn. I do not find them unstable though.
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Rank: C-Class Racing License
#15 Posted : Thursday, April 23, 2015 3:50:43 PM(UTC)
Automobile handling
Removed chart, but the above is a link and always has been.

Edited by user Friday, April 24, 2015 2:16:21 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

My completely open source tunes for: Forza Motorsport 5 & Forza Horizon 2.
Rank: Racing Legend
#16 Posted : Thursday, April 23, 2015 6:14:55 PM(UTC)
That chart is slightly lacking and I have no doubt that people will make the wrong front tyre choice after reading that.

A few issues with it.

It makes no mention of damping and it makes no mention of corner entry / exit.

It also makes no reference to body roll which may require a different ARB tweak to fix.

Also wide front tyres and therefore better contact patch may not produce the desired results in Forza.
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Rank: Driver's License
#17 Posted : Thursday, April 23, 2015 7:13:00 PM(UTC)
I managed to run a 45.111 on parc circut which put me in 77th place in your charger. Not the best but definitely not the worst tune i used that wasnt mine lol and i have tried quite a bit of the communitys tunes from this site that in all honesty should not even be sourced.. with that being said your tune is ok for the average driver to use but if your using it for rivals you might be dissapointed at how you place against the daytona, stradale, and darts in A class. Its an average car with average qualitys so expect average times.. Your build is a bit on the heavy side and you may want to take off the race roll cage to help with acceleration. Your tune is pretty good im not gonna lie. but not for me, it has a bit understeer when turning in, i would lower the diffs deccel to 7 and decrease the ARB a bit to help with understeer, try 10 in front and 12 in the back. I dont want go more in detail because id be here for an hour typing this msg as im on my xb1 controller lol sorry and hope this helps you out.
xSpeedLess
Rank: Racing Legend
#18 Posted : Thursday, April 23, 2015 8:13:22 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: xSpeedLess Go to Quoted Post
I managed to run a 45.111 on parc circut which put me in 77th place in your charger. Not the best but definitely not the worst tune i used that wasnt mine lol and i have tried quite a bit of the communitys tunes from this site that in all honesty should not even be sourced.. with that being said your tune is ok for the average driver to use but if your using it for rivals you might be dissapointed at how you place against the daytona, stradale, and darts in A class. Its an average car with average qualitys so expect average times.. Your build is a bit on the heavy side and you may want to take off the race roll cage to help with acceleration. Your tune is pretty good im not gonna lie. but not for me, it has a bit understeer when turning in, i would lower the diffs deccel to 7 and decrease the ARB a bit to help with understeer, try 10 in front and 12 in the back. I dont want go more in detail because id be here for an hour typing this msg as im on my xb1 controller lol sorry and hope this helps you out.


Totally agree with this.

Way too many tunes on here are tuned where the tuner is aiming for stability but they end up being slow and understeery.

People need to learn that stability can be achieved without understeer and turning ability can be achieved without oversteer.

First step in learning is be open to change and do not go nuts at those who have tuned and run quick cars.

Main reason why I have stopped trying to help people and unfortunately it has reeuced my willingness to hgelp those who are open to the help.
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Rank: D-Class Racing License
#19 Posted : Friday, April 24, 2015 4:15:24 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SatNiteEduardo Go to Quoted Post
Sounds like you are using sim steering. I am using a controller with normal steering.


I do use sim steering with a controller. Maybe doing that affects turn-in differently than normal steering. I feel like normal steering is a little numb. Also, I don't think I have great throttle control, especially in a RWD car, so I end up tuning my cars to be more forgiving of my inadequate throttle skills. I'd likely use settings very similar to yours for an AWD build, but for a RWD build I don't think I'd make it to the first corner before spinning out. Likely not the fault of your settings. A more skilled driver could certainly use them for quick lap times.

Isn't understeer generally considered a more stable state than oversteer?
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#20 Posted : Friday, April 24, 2015 4:26:55 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SatNiteEduardo Go to Quoted Post
That chart is slightly lacking and I have no doubt that people will make the wrong front tyre choice after reading that.


Agree. There are some charts linked around here that seem to directly contradict each other. What do you think of this guide?

http://www.racingonthech...l-smiths-handling-guide/

I think BigWorm made a post here somewhere that seemed to borrow from this. Or hell, maybe BigWorm is Carrol Smith.
Rank: X-Class Racing License
#21 Posted : Friday, April 24, 2015 6:37:59 AM(UTC)
Potbox you were asking what some of these things do, try this link. It doesn't go into too much information but still offers a basic understanding of what each of the tuning components will do.
Rank: Racing Legend
#22 Posted : Sunday, April 26, 2015 7:35:09 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Potbox Go to Quoted Post
[quote=SatNiteEduardo;296694]

Isn't understeer generally considered a more stable state than oversteer?


I don't look at it that way.

I look at it like this - can I tune this car to turn better without making it unstable?

People look at the settings like I posted and freak out and say on a RWD car that will be unstable.

Now I say above I have not tested what I posted but it is the starting point I use on RWD cars. Someone helped me tune an AWD car and I have used some of those settings with a few tweaks on RWD and it has worked.

People miss the bump and diff settings. They allow a car to turn and be stable.

Try my shared tunes for cross country for 1970 Camaro, C2 Corvette or Mercedes 300. All turn fine and are stable and started with somehting like what I posted above.

The art is learning how to stabilise a car without hindering its turning ability - then it will be quick.
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Rank: X-Class Racing License
#23 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2015 9:16:46 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SatNiteEduardo Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Potbox Go to Quoted Post
[quote=SatNiteEduardo;296694]

Isn't understeer generally considered a more stable state than oversteer?


I don't look at it that way.

I look at it like this - can I tune this car to turn better without making it unstable?

People look at the settings like I posted and freak out and say on a RWD car that will be unstable.

Now I say above I have not tested what I posted but it is the starting point I use on RWD cars. Someone helped me tune an AWD car and I have used some of those settings with a few tweaks on RWD and it has worked.

People miss the bump and diff settings. They allow a car to turn and be stable.

Try my shared tunes for cross country for 1970 Camaro, C2 Corvette or Mercedes 300. All turn fine and are stable and started with somehting like what I posted above.

The art is learning how to stabilise a car without hindering its turning ability - then it will be quick.


I can definitely speak to the above mentioned Camaro and Mercedes. They are amazing builds that are very stable, handle well, and do phenomenally on cross country courses. They may not be the best for online lobby racing for one reason or another but when running rivals (especially those restricted to RWD) you will find these cars an absolute joy to drive.

They are stable. They turn where you point them. They require throttle control and steering input control but which car does not?
Rank: Racing Legend
#24 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2015 11:06:27 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PPiDrive Go to Quoted Post
[q

I can definitely speak to the above mentioned Camaro and Mercedes. They are amazing builds that are very stable, handle well, and do phenomenally on cross country courses. They may not be the best for online lobby racing for one reason or another but when running rivals (especially those restricted to RWD) you will find these cars an absolute joy to drive.

They are stable. They turn where you point them. They require throttle control and steering input control but which car does not?


Thanks for that feedback. Glad someone else finds them turnable but also stable.

And guess what - if people in this thread saw the settings they would freakout and say it all looks very unstable. Don't focus on individual settings - its the package that is stable or not.



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Rank: X-Class Racing License
#25 Posted : Tuesday, April 28, 2015 6:44:10 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SatNiteEduardo Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PPiDrive Go to Quoted Post
[q

I can definitely speak to the above mentioned Camaro and Mercedes. They are amazing builds that are very stable, handle well, and do phenomenally on cross country courses. They may not be the best for online lobby racing for one reason or another but when running rivals (especially those restricted to RWD) you will find these cars an absolute joy to drive.

They are stable. They turn where you point them. They require throttle control and steering input control but which car does not?


Thanks for that feedback. Glad someone else finds them turnable but also stable.

And guess what - if people in this thread saw the settings they would freakout and say it all looks very unstable. Don't focus on individual settings - its the package that is stable or not.


it's been mentioned so many times and people still seem hesitant to try some awkward or extreme settings to see how they work. Change tings one at a time and grade the car as a whole. if it does not work somewhere, fix that specific issue only. If it's the front end that is having an issue, don't go tweaking the rear..... etc

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