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Rank: Driver's Permit
#1 Posted : Wednesday, April 8, 2015 6:27:57 AM(UTC)
Hello everybody!

This is my first post on this forum, but I've been a reader and lurker for a long time.

I could really use some assistance tuning an S-class Diablo SV. Here are the specs:

Lateral G's: 1.055 / top speed: 213mp/h / HP: 765 / TQ: 644 / WT: 2740 / 43% / 6.0L / P.Rpm: 7100 / Tq:Rpm: 5500 / R.Rpm: 2500 / FT: 245/30R19 / RT: 345/25R19

I'm not the greatest tuner, but I've usually been able to tune most cars to suit my driving style without too much trouble. However, with this SV, I'm having big trouble with excessive understeer, especially mid-corner and on corner exit. I actually like a bit of understeer, but I've tried all kinds of changes to ARB, Springs, and even alignment without any significant improvement.
Because the car has some excellent stats and is very quick, I would really like to get the handling nailed down.

This is my current tuning setup after experimenting with all kinds of different numbers. This has given me the best results so far:

Tire Pressure:

F: 28
R: 28.5

Alignment:

Camber:

F: -1.0*
R: -0.9*

Toe

F: 0.5*
R: -0.5*

Caster:

5.0*

ARB:

F: 22
R: 25

Springs:

F: 587.5
R: 705.5

Ride Height:

F: 3.7
R: 3.8

Damping:

Rebound:
F: 10
R: 11.5

Bump:
F: 2.0
R: 2.5

Aero:
R: 120

Differential:

Accel: 25%
Deccel: 75%


I know some of these numbers might seem a little strange, but I've tried all kinds of configurations to get the car to handle well (especially mid-corner and on corner exit) and this configuration has given me the best results so far. I'm pretty sure the answer lies in a combination of Alignment, ARB, Springs and Damping, but Ive had no luck getting the numbers right.

Any help that the tuners on this board could give me would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

TOkidd (my XBox Live handle)

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#2 Posted : Wednesday, April 8, 2015 6:49:42 AM(UTC)
I am not on to try this right now, but -

try swapping what you have for tire pressure, ARBs, and Differential Front for Rear & Rear for Front while leaving everything else as you have it.

Also, only rear areo? typically, I'm both F & R or none at all. Does this particular car have both as an option?
Rank: Driver's Permit
#3 Posted : Wednesday, April 8, 2015 7:50:02 AM(UTC)
Thanks for the suggestions Leek47 - I'll try them out later today when I have a chance. I'm pretty sure that front aero is an upgrade option for this car. I try to avoid front aero unless I really think the car needs it, because it often has a very negative effect on top speed, and sometimes on accel/launch. I might install it on the SV just to see if it helps. I carefully weigh the negatives/positives of installing front aero on my cars, and if it adds too many points while taking a big chunk out of speed, I don't normally install it. However, once I get to R3, most of my cars have it, and all my R2 cars have it. I'm willing to give it a shot and see if it helps my SV's handling.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#4 Posted : Thursday, April 9, 2015 2:40:11 AM(UTC)
im not a great tuner either but those spring rates look a little light. i've had better luck with heavier springs and lighter ARB's in Lambo's but ive not tried to tune the diablo sv. also maybe too much decel in the differential. a higher decel tends to cause understeer
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#5 Posted : Thursday, April 9, 2015 6:27:51 AM(UTC)
First, your toe settings are to high. Try running .1 on the front and -.2/-.3 on the rear. Next, change your diff settings. Way too high on the deccel, probably why your having trouble in the turns. Try starting at 50/30 and work from there. Keep the deccel lower than the accel.
EZT Motorsport: P r i d e | H o n o r | I n t e g r i t y - Not just a team, but a way of life!
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#6 Posted : Thursday, April 9, 2015 7:23:01 PM(UTC)
If you're going to use aero, always use front and rear. There are so few exceptions to that it's just safe to say always use it, especially with that much power... Also, maximize the amount of aero in the tune settings. Perhaps that'll be enough to solve your issue. Your numbers are relatively normal aside from toe and differential as was mentioned before, and that can also contribute to understeer. Try 0.0/0.0 toe and 40% decel to start, and keep lowering the diff as needed. Decel does not need to be lower than accel... However, if I remember the behavior of this car correctly, it'll be just fine with 0% decel.
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#7 Posted : Friday, April 10, 2015 12:38:43 AM(UTC)
Hello all,

Thank-you for all your suggestions and advice.

I realize the toe is kind of weird - I run +0.1/-0.1 on pretty much every car I own, but I was having so much trouble getting this beast to turn that I tried a few things I hadn't tried before, including changes to toe. These toe settings actually seemed to help, so I kept them. I agree that the decel differential is very high. I almost always drop decel to about 30 or lower. I think the reason I left it high on this car was because i wasn't having problems downshifting through corners (a high decel often causes the car to lose traction when downshifting in a turn, in my experience) and I like how the car loses throttle with a high decel - allows you to take corners with less braking, but I guess that doesn't matter much if the car barely makes it around the corner.

I have not had a chance to try any of the suggestions that you have all been kind enough to recommend, but I will do so today or tomorrow. So thank-you for all your help.

Peace

Edited by user Friday, April 10, 2015 12:41:41 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#8 Posted : Friday, April 10, 2015 11:53:18 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: The Bulin Wall5 Go to Quoted Post
If you're going to use aero, always use front and rear. There are so few exceptions to that it's just safe to say always use it, especially with that much power... Also, maximize the amount of aero in the tune settings. Perhaps that'll be enough to solve your issue. Your numbers are relatively normal aside from toe and differential as was mentioned before, and that can also contribute to understeer. Try 0.0/0.0 toe and 40% decel to start, and keep lowering the diff as needed. Decel does not need to be lower than accel... However, if I remember the behavior of this car correctly, it'll be just fine with 0% decel.


Do what this man says.....
Rank: Driver's Permit
#9 Posted : Saturday, April 11, 2015 6:14:46 PM(UTC)
Hello to everybody!

I want to thank everybody who has provided suggestions. I have finally had time to try out some of these adjustments to see if i could get the SV's handling under control. For anyone who is interested in trying out this tune for free, check out my storefront under my XBox Live handle, TOkidd. Speaking of XBox Live, i thought i should mention that I only gained access to it for the first time in September of last year. This is why this board has the start of my Forza career in 2014. The truth is that my Forza racing career started in 2005, when I bought the very first edition of the game for the original XBox. I have owned every sequel since, with the exception of the Horizon series. When i finally upgrade to XBox One, Forza will no doubt be one of my first purchases.

Back to my tuning, the first thing i did was add front-end aero like several members urged me to.I have my aero on both ends set right in the middle. I may try higher levels as I test the car on more tracks and see if its handling is at least decent on all kinds of corners. I changed the toe to my usual +0.1/-0.1 setup and decreased the decel to 30%. I ran a test lap at Road America, and things were a little better. But they were far from where i wanted them to be.

I took a look at my ARB settings, but before making any changes there, I wanted to see if my unusual toe settings from before had actually made the improvement to handling I thought they had. So i switched it back to +0.5/-0.5 and did a lap. My cornering was noticeably improved, and my lap times had consistently dropped by more than a second. I decided that this uncommon toe setting was helping the understeer. My hunch had been correct after all, and the restored toe settings improved the excessive sluggishness mid-corner and boosted my lap times. This has been an interesting learning experience for me, because it showed me that the conventional tuning methods that most people stick to occasionally need to be altered to the point where common knowledge is no longer relevant and all that matters is that the adjustment is making your car drive better,

So things were getting better, but it was time to take a closer look at my ARB settings — so important to mid-corner and the transition to corner exit. I felt that making major adjustments to the springs, ride height, and damping were the last thing I wanted to tey. I had tried stiffening the springs as one poster recommended, but it did not help in this case. To come up with an initial number for front and rear springs, I do the typical calculation of 50% of the car's weight multiplied by the percentage of the weight burden that each end had to bear. I ended up with a number that was very close to the final spring rate I listed above (and have stuck with). I adjusted the original numbers slightly to improve corner exit mostly.

I typically arrive at an inital ARB setting by having it match the spring rate. So if the front spring is 45% of the max spring, I will set the ARB at 45% of 40, which is the max ARB stiffness. I ended up with the 22/25 setup I initially posted for this SV, but tried what I call "bracketing." Just like a photographer "brackets" their shot by taking three successive photos — with one value that reflects the photographer's best guess at the optimum exposure settings, and then two additional photos at an exposure that is slightly higher and lower than the the one chosen by the photograoher — bracketing ARB settings is when I try moving the values a fair bit lower than the initial calculation, and then moving the sliders to a higher value than the initial one, with the front and rear numbers remaining the same % difference from each other. I When my intial calculation for an ARB setting needs more than just a minor adjustment, I use bracketing to tell me if much mire body roll would help the cornering, or if less body roll is what the car needs. By running a lap at each setting, I can tell if the car responds better to more or less body roll, then fine tune the ARB setting based on the results. I performed this experiment on the SV and found that a very stiff ARB was needed, with the front end maxed out to 40 and the rear end a few points lower.

Combined with the upgrade to front-end aero, my decision to keep the unusual toe setting, and a decrease of the decel slip differential, this final adjustment to the ARB provided what I needed to improve my lap time by an average of 2.4 seconds (over five laps) at Road America compared to the initial setting detailed in my first post in this thread. The car's handling through tight turns is still not the greatest, but I dont think I will get anything better without making significant changes to the upgrades I have chosen. Even then, my handling upgrades are almost maxed in this tune, so i dont think an extra 0.2 increase in handling would lead to turning that was tight enough to make up for the downgrades in horsepower and torque.

If you are interested to try out the tune for yourself, check out my storefront and try it for free. I have other tunes there for free as well. Some are better than others, but my primary goal in any tune is to maximize the amount of speed in a particular car or class without making huge sacrifices to handling, I try to strike a balance between speed and handling, typically focusing on reducing weight, finding a class-appropriate set of tire upgrades, then finishing by upgrading the engine as much as I can within a given class. Then i take the car to the track and work hard to tune the steering for optimum grip and oversteer/understeer balance. As i said before, i like a little understeer. I should also note that I have never stopped using traction control as an assist in Forza 4 (other than braking line, it is the only assist i use when driving), and i tune my cars with traction control on because I am ultimately tuning them for me. I share some of my better tunes at my storefront in the hopes that some peole who download the setuos will find that they suit their driving style as well.

So, peace y'all! Thanks for helping me with my tune and please try it out and provide feedback at TOkidd's storefront.

Later.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#10 Posted : Saturday, April 11, 2015 7:12:51 PM(UTC)
To me it sounds like you are adjusting both front and rear at the same time. When you are tuning you should fix the end that is broken. In your case the front. If you continue to adjust both front and rear equally then no characteristics will change. I'd try something much more radical like dropping the front bar to minimum and leave the rear or max front aero and leave rear you can then tweak from there. I have many cars tuned like this as I really like having the front end of the car very nimble and prefer oversteer.

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#11 Posted : Saturday, April 11, 2015 10:28:01 PM(UTC)
I just typed out a nice response, but lost it due to some technical glitch (web site not available?) ...in summary - I put an S together, it's on my storefront... tires were looking good after a few laps at equal pressure F & R, toe is "normal" (to me anyway ;^) @ 0.0, -0.1 (F & R), ARBs are very near 55% Front, springs & dampers are very nearly 47% Front, and my differential is feeling aOk to me 45/35 (can certainly see going lower though).

you'll see that mine is down quite a bit on power compared to yours, but ...more Gs!

Have fun & enjoy!

Edited by user Saturday, April 11, 2015 10:30:28 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
#12 Posted : Sunday, April 12, 2015 7:00:24 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DesigningLeek47 Go to Quoted Post
I just typed out a nice response, but lost it due to some technical glitch (web site not available?) ...in summary - I put an S together, it's on my storefront... tires were looking good after a few laps at equal pressure F & R, toe is "normal" (to me anyway ;^) @ 0.0, -0.1 (F & R), ARBs are very near 55% Front, springs & dampers are very nearly 47% Front, and my differential is feeling aOk to me 45/35 (can certainly see going lower though).

you'll see that mine is down quite a bit on power compared to yours, but ...more Gs!

Have fun & enjoy!


Sounds cool. I will definitely try your tune next time Im online.

As for PTG Baby Cow's point:

I was not having a problem with a particular end. I was having a problem with the entire car not cornering well. This was not stricly a front-end issue, and the only rear-end adjustment i made was to the ARB.

Furthermore, i dont know how you tune your cars, but when i buy a new car, I tune the whole thing. Then i focus on specifics based on how the car performs. If i was losing rear traction in corners, i would focus on the rear mostly, but how front and rear numbers relate to each other and the % difference between them will have an overall desirable effect. So saying that i should always focus strictly on the end having the problem (which, in this case, was not so clear-cut) is applying a very general maxim to a specific situation where it is not warranted. I also think this bit of wisdom is overly simplistic. Focussing on the end of the car that has the problem does make sense, but that does NOT mean only adjusting that end's values. Often, one has to make changes in both end's values to fix a problem with one end. Especially with a complex problem like mid-corner understeer. So i dont agree with your point, or perhaps you just did not explain it well.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#13 Posted : Sunday, April 12, 2015 7:49:58 PM(UTC)
No I explained it as I meant it. Focus on the end of the car that's causing issues. You were messing with both ends because you couldn't tell which end of the car was giving troubles only masking the actual problem. It is much more simple then many people make it out to be. That's the same reason minimum bump and max rebound works etc.

Simply put the car is going to understeer because it's a mid engine rear drive car. So you need to soften the front a bit. Or stiffen the rear a bit. Like I said I like to mess with the end that's giving the trouble until their is no more adjustability or the number has reached minimum values.

Could also be a build or driver issue. You said you had no front aero which I would imagine that is a good portion of the issue.

What kind of corner are you getting mid corner understeer? Sweepers hairpins sharp corners?

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#14 Posted : Monday, April 13, 2015 6:16:48 AM(UTC)
I haven't played with the SV all that much in FM4, but in FM3 it was one of my best A class cars. I had a tune from the HLR guys and it was very quick, nimble, and stuck like glue. I might give this a try just to see. Also, as much as I love Road America, I find it only to be a good test track for speed tunes. You can muscle an ill handling car around it with some good braking and throttle control and still get a decent time. For testing out handling, I prefer to use Road Atlanta and Maple Valley. Just my personal preferences, I'm sure others have theirs.
EZT Motorsport: P r i d e | H o n o r | I n t e g r i t y - Not just a team, but a way of life!
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#15 Posted : Monday, April 13, 2015 6:49:37 AM(UTC)
PTG:

Reading your last post, I dont think we actually disagree. It is more the way we are explaining our POV's that makes it seem that way.

EZT Mako:

I agree that Road America is a great track to test speed tunes, but I like it as an initial tuning track because of the wide variety of corners it offers. I don't pay attention to the times I put up while I am tuning a car on Road America — just how the car responds to the various corners and if my lap time decreases as i make adjustments. Also remember what I said in one of my posts, that I simply do my initial tune on Road America. I will then bring it to other tracks to see how it runs.

As for Road Atlanta, that is ALWAYS the second track I bring my ride to after doing the initial tune on Road America. Quite often, I use Road Atlanta as a substitute for Road America, depending on the car.

So I get what you are saying. I like to tune my car on a number of different tracks, but Road American is where I usually start out simply because of the wide variety of turns it offers me to test out a car's handling.

Peace

TOkidd
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#16 Posted : Monday, April 13, 2015 10:44:01 AM(UTC)
Tokidd this is very possible

Cheers

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#17 Posted : Monday, April 13, 2015 4:30:34 PM(UTC)
This one's fun. Something interesting to do. I remember trying this car like a year ago and just writing it off as a bad job. It was a challenge to get this one running how I'd like. Turned out this car is better than I ever thought it would be. Wish it had a little more grunt on the straights though. It's got plenty of horses just doesn't pull. My results are up on my storefront if anyone wants to try.
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#18 Posted : Monday, April 13, 2015 6:19:48 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: o2R Dsquared 07 Go to Quoted Post
This one's fun. Something interesting to do. I remember trying this car like a year ago and just writing it off as a bad job. It was a challenge to get this one running how I'd like. Turned out this car is better than I ever thought it would be. Wish it had a little more grunt on the straights though. It's got plenty of horses just doesn't pull. My results are up on my storefront if anyone wants to try.


It is a fun car. I cant believe I overlooked it for so long. I've owned every non-DLC Lambo for many months with the exception of this one. Now that I have it, I don't understand what took me so long to buy it. It was a challenge to tune, and I'm still working on improving it, but it's a great car. Haven't taken it into the lobby yet.

I will definitely download your tune next time I get online.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#19 Posted : Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:16:44 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: o2R Dsquared 07 Go to Quoted Post
This one's fun. Something interesting to do. I remember trying this car like a year ago and just writing it off as a bad job. It was a challenge to get this one running how I'd like. Turned out this car is better than I ever thought it would be. Wish it had a little more grunt on the straights though. It's got plenty of horses just doesn't pull. My results are up on my storefront if anyone wants to try.


I found the same thing. I did recently build one in A class for an open team race night after remembering how much I liked it in FM3. Felt very planted and cornered really well. Thought I had a pretty decent car, but when tested on the track I got beat on the straights pretty handily. Haven't been back to reconfigure it, but I suspect that more HP might upset he overall balance.
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#20 Posted : Tuesday, April 14, 2015 8:54:01 AM(UTC)
i do intitial tunes on road america the i head to the nurb. a car i cant get to run at least so- so on nordschleif doesnt last long in my garage.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#21 Posted : Thursday, April 16, 2015 2:41:21 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post

Simply put the car is going to understeer because it's a mid engine rear drive car.


Umm... What...?
Rank: Racing Permit
#22 Posted : Wednesday, April 22, 2015 3:01:08 PM(UTC)
This is one of my favorite cars.

I just moved into a new house and I don't have a TV for my Xbox yet. But from what I remember I had to get really aggressive with the springs and ARBs, making the front soft and the back hard. Have to play with the tire pressures as well to get the temperatures equalized.... they should be like 2-3 PSI apart, I think with the front higher maybe? I would get race tires and dial back the power too, it's just as fast. I didnt see if you have aero but you should get that on the front. Once you do that it pretty much handles like a 911. Mild but manageable understeer, [Mod Edit - Abbreviated profanity, profanity and profanity that is disguised but still alludes to the words are not permitted - D] of grip coming out of corners. Fun to drive with that V12 wail and easy + heavy + stable which is great for lobbies. I sold mine cause I got bored with it and don't get manuf bonuses for Lambos anymore but that was a fun nut to crack.

Edited by user Sunday, May 17, 2015 5:18:19 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#23 Posted : Thursday, April 30, 2015 7:22:20 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: o2R Dsquared 07 Go to Quoted Post
This one's fun. Something interesting to do. I remember trying this car like a year ago and just writing it off as a bad job. It was a challenge to get this one running how I'd like. Turned out this car is better than I ever thought it would be. Wish it had a little more grunt on the straights though. It's got plenty of horses just doesn't pull. My results are up on my storefront if anyone wants to try.


Hey, Dsquared,

I downloaded your tune today and tried it out on Road Atlanta. It has very nice handling compared to mine, which still has too much understeer despite all my efforts. I tried out both tunes on Road Atlanta to see how badly your build/tune would crush mine and was surprised to see that the two best times from yours and mine after five laps were much closer than I expected. Your build/tune still bested mine, but only by 0.65 seconds. Of course, that is still significant because it means your SV would beat mine on most tracks, but I was expecting your SV to beat mine by at least 2 seconds. I suspect that the extra HP in my build is probably the reason for the lap times. On a course with a shorter straight, I'm guessing your SV would have a much better lap time than mine.

Out of curiosity, because I would still like to improve my tune without making any major changes to the build, what factor(s) do you think is (are) most important for improving handling with this car, with respect to excess understeer (*although my questions here are directed at Dsquared because I've tried his tune for this car, I would value advice from any other posters who feel they have something to add). If you've downloaded my tune and given it a go, you'll have seen what I'm talking about. Turn-in isn't too bad, but mid-corner and corner-exit leave much to be desired. I've played with all kinds of ARB configs and played with springs a bit, too, but it seems I'm missing something. Do you have high ARB numbers, or do you have them set to roughly match your spring rate? Or are your ARB numbers pretty low for this car? What about your springs? You dont have to give me exact numbers — just whether or not you went away from the basic 50% weight X % weight distribution calculation to get your starting spring rates. I find that this simple calculation almost always gives me good starting spring rates, but with some cars I've had to make major modifications. How do you normally arrive at a starting spring rate and, in the case of the SV, did you have to stray far from the "norm" to get numbers that worked. Finally, do you think any factors besides spring rate and ARB might be causing the excessive ARB I'm experiencing? I have my differential at 25/35, my aero is right in the middle for front and rear, and the other values are basically the same as in my initial post, except for ARB's, which I loosened up considerably.

Any input would be much appreciated. Thanks to everyone for their help!

TOkidd
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#24 Posted : Thursday, April 30, 2015 6:10:21 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: TOkidd Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: o2R Dsquared 07 Go to Quoted Post
This one's fun. Something interesting to do. I remember trying this car like a year ago and just writing it off as a bad job. It was a challenge to get this one running how I'd like. Turned out this car is better than I ever thought it would be. Wish it had a little more grunt on the straights though. It's got plenty of horses just doesn't pull. My results are up on my storefront if anyone wants to try.


Hey, Dsquared,

I downloaded your tune today and tried it out on Road Atlanta. It has very nice handling compared to mine, which still has too much understeer despite all my efforts. I tried out both tunes on Road Atlanta to see how badly your build/tune would crush mine and was surprised to see that the two best times from yours and mine after five laps were much closer than I expected. Your build/tune still bested mine, but only by 0.65 seconds. Of course, that is still significant because it means your SV would beat mine on most tracks, but I was expecting your SV to beat mine by at least 2 seconds. I suspect that the extra HP in my build is probably the reason for the lap times. On a course with a shorter straight, I'm guessing your SV would have a much better lap time than mine.

Out of curiosity, because I would still like to improve my tune without making any major changes to the build, what factor(s) do you think is (are) most important for improving handling with this car, with respect to excess understeer (*although my questions here are directed at Dsquared because I've tried his tune for this car, I would value advice from any other posters who feel they have something to add). If you've downloaded my tune and given it a go, you'll have seen what I'm talking about. Turn-in isn't too bad, but mid-corner and corner-exit leave much to be desired. I've played with all kinds of ARB configs and played with springs a bit, too, but it seems I'm missing something. Do you have high ARB numbers, or do you have them set to roughly match your spring rate? Or are your ARB numbers pretty low for this car? What about your springs? You dont have to give me exact numbers — just whether or not you went away from the basic 50% weight X % weight distribution calculation to get your starting spring rates. I find that this simple calculation almost always gives me good starting spring rates, but with some cars I've had to make major modifications. How do you normally arrive at a starting spring rate and, in the case of the SV, did you have to stray far from the "norm" to get numbers that worked. Finally, do you think any factors besides spring rate and ARB might be causing the excessive ARB I'm experiencing? I have my differential at 25/35, my aero is right in the middle for front and rear, and the other values are basically the same as in my initial post, except for ARB's, which I loosened up considerably.

Any input would be much appreciated. Thanks to everyone for their help!

TOkidd


I have my ARBs pretty soft on nearly all cars. Rarely ever over 20. I've never used any calculations to arrive at my settings. I tune on feel and lap times. Usually I'd set my springs at like 600/600 and go front there. The first thing I'd do with your setup is to put the aero at maximum. I don't like your differential settings. Accel too low and decel too high. Having low accel' and/or high decel' makes a car easier to drive, but is slower. Be as aggressive as you can handle with the differential.
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User is suspended until 11/28/2042 2:06:57 PM(UTC)
#25 Posted : Thursday, April 30, 2015 6:22:53 PM(UTC)
DAMPING.


Just stop. Just sayin.
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