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#76 Posted : Saturday, April 25, 2015 7:17:28 PM(UTC)
Cloud physics is a great idea IMO. I can't see any issues that could possib

EDIT: Sorry, my internet went out momentarily... As I was saying, I can't see issues any issues that could possibly arise from having half of the game's physics rely on always being connected to the internet.

Edited by user Saturday, April 25, 2015 7:19:51 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified


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#77 Posted : Sunday, April 26, 2015 12:13:30 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Dadiodude Go to Quoted Post


I'm curious as to how resolution works. 900p would be the games native resolution but the Xbox one will only output at 720 or 1080 and most TVs look for 480, 720 or 1080. Does the hardware try to upscale (although if it can why lower the native res) or does it drop to a lower res. The other option would be an incomplete 1080 but how this would work I've no idea.

Anyone know how a native 900p is output?


When they talk about e.g. 900p these days it means the image is internally calculated at 900p, upscaled by the console, and sent to the TV at 1080p.
The point is that non-native images look blurry on screens.
Some from the PC folk would sometimes say "900p is horrible, I tried it on my PC" ... that`s because there is no upscaling to meet the screen`s native resolution.

As for the why ... lower resolutions help with the performance (framerate). The later upscaling just keeps the image quality in line.
You still loose pixel detail of course, but at least to me that`s no big deal, in a few cases even beneficial. Obviously opinions differ on this one ;)


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#78 Posted : Sunday, April 26, 2015 1:59:51 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Binurah Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dadiodude Go to Quoted Post


I'm curious as to how resolution works. 900p would be the games native resolution but the Xbox one will only output at 720 or 1080 and most TVs look for 480, 720 or 1080. Does the hardware try to upscale (although if it can why lower the native res) or does it drop to a lower res. The other option would be an incomplete 1080 but how this would work I've no idea.

Anyone know how a native 900p is output?


When they talk about e.g. 900p these days it means the image is internally calculated at 900p, upscaled by the console, and sent to the TV at 1080p.
The point is that non-native images look blurry on screens.
Some from the PC folk would sometimes say "900p is horrible, I tried it on my PC" ... that`s because there is no upscaling to meet the screen`s native resolution.

As for the why ... lower resolutions help with the performance (framerate). The later upscaling just keeps the image quality in line.
You still loose pixel detail of course, but at least to me that`s no big deal, in a few cases even beneficial. Obviously opinions differ on this one ;)




Well, if you had a older 16:10 monitor it would be fine if its native was 1400x900. The games tend to use odd render resolutions often not in the standardized range, so upscalers are needed.

@dadio.

The second part of your question refers to 2 parts. Downsampling and Dynamic resolution.

Downsampling, often used for greater image quality, involves rendering the game internally such as 4K and scaling to 1080p. Several methods to achieve this such as NVIDIA DSR and Durantes GeDoSaTo. Very computationally heavy/ brute force

Dynamic resolution is interesting. It has pros and cons being you can change the render targets on the fly but doing so will increase frametimes. The other use is in the VR area where the rendered resolutions vary with focal points (focused, outside focused area). Variable computational levels.

Edited by user Sunday, April 26, 2015 2:01:23 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#79 Posted : Sunday, April 26, 2015 6:59:12 AM(UTC)
Thanks Dust. From that I'd assume that the XB performs up scaling on a stand alone SoC component and doesn't employ GPU in the process. That's what I was trying to understand as up scaling via GPU wouldn't help much in terms of frame rate. Mind you, even this basic process is generating over 600k pixels at 60fps - that's more than my early PCs could manage at full tilt :h
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#80 Posted : Sunday, April 26, 2015 12:27:16 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Dadiodude Go to Quoted Post
Thanks Dust. From that I'd assume that the XB performs up scaling on a stand alone SoC component and doesn't employ GPU in the process. That's what I was trying to understand as up scaling via GPU wouldn't help much in terms of frame rate. Mind you, even this basic process is generating over 600k pixels at 60fps - that's more than my early PCs could manage at full tilt :h


upscaling is handled by the GPU on both 360/XB1.



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#81 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2015 5:35:31 AM(UTC)
I would love to see FORZATECH become something similar to Race Room Experience from Sector3 (former simbin studio) on PC. The just need to provide a highly accurate physics simulation and a powerful, XBO optimized GFX engine and let other devs put content around it. And at the same time, MS gets some XBOX exclusives onboard... ;)

It will save the software studios lots of development time and the "games" could be sold as DLC for approx 15-30 USD each.

Its a win/win situation
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#82 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2015 7:58:36 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: WoozieWoo Go to Quoted Post
I would love to see FORZATECH become something similar to Race Room Experience from Sector3 (former simbin studio) on PC. The just need to provide a highly accurate physics simulation and a powerful, XBO optimized GFX engine and let other devs put content around it. And at the same time, MS gets some XBOX exclusives onboard... ;)

It will save the software studios lots of development time and the "games" could be sold as DLC for approx 15-30 USD each.

Its a win/win situation


They are not going to cut the price of games even if Forzatech all but packages the discs. LOL

I do hope that Forzatech is the beginning of Forza Motorsports as a service, rather than a biannual release. Then I can see subscription pricing coming into play, but as long as it's a stand alone game thats sold every other year; there is no way it's going to MSRP at $15-$30 USD.
Time to hit the road.

Take care!
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#83 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2015 9:20:55 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Wilko Jones Go to Quoted Post


They are not going to cut the price of games even if Forzatech all but packages the discs. LOL

I do hope that Forzatech is the beginning of Forza Motorsports as a service, rather than a biannual release. Then I can see subscription pricing coming into play, but as long as it's a stand alone game thats sold every other year; there is no way it's going to MSRP at $15-$30 USD.


Dude, I dont expect them (T10) to sell FM at this low price. The FM/FH will likely remain as standalone games with yearly iterations.

I was referring to Forzatech as being a platform for all kind of race games. If T10 puts all their knowledge and experience into a physic & graphics engine, specifically developed and optimized for XBox and make this available to other devs/studios (by licensing it) i can definately see a bright future for all kind of race games on XBO. The devs dont have to worry about coding physics and graphics, they just focus on content creation which will be build around this platform.

Looking for WTCC, DTM, WEC, Nascar or even WRC? Just buy the respective package for 10-20 bucks including all the tracks and cars and enjoy your favorite series.

It works well on PC already, cant see a reason why it shouldnt work on consoles.
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#84 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2015 11:05:41 AM(UTC)
Historically games written on proprietory engines have been full games at full price. They also tend to be quite similar (for obvious reasons) but if they do make Forzatech available to others it should give studios the opportunity to do something new in terms of locations and gameplay. The Mille Meglia in a gull wing or screaming around some acurately recreated downtown in something contemporary but with FM physics could be fun.

I don't think the idea of packs of tracks and cars would work though. XB Live requires enough active players to justify the hosting necessary to allow global access and enough players to make MP feasible. XB is at its best when games sell into seven figures and everyone by and large has the same content.
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#85 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2015 12:34:06 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: WoozieWoo Go to Quoted Post


It works well on PC already, cant see a reason why it shouldnt work on consoles.


Platform owners are the reason it wont work on consoles.

Not only that, if it was to happen, the platform holder is going to still want their 30% cut.
So F2P games arent really F2P on the consoles. You still have to pay for the gold sub. (someone correct me if Im wrong here).

Remember, there is no gatekeeper on the PC. Devs earn more, from less.



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#86 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2015 1:23:46 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DUST2DEATH Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: WoozieWoo Go to Quoted Post


It works well on PC already, cant see a reason why it shouldnt work on consoles.


Platform owners are the reason it wont work on consoles.

Not only that, if it was to happen, the platform holder is going to still want their 30% cut.
So F2P games arent really F2P on the consoles. You still have to pay for the gold sub. (someone correct me if Im wrong here).

Remember, there is no gatekeeper on the PC. Devs earn more, from less.





Agreed. A great many games used the Havoc engine, but they didn't get cheaper. There's still an ungodly amount of work to do outside of the physics model.

Also, don't forget: F2P=P2W.

Edited by user Monday, April 27, 2015 1:27:09 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#87 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2015 1:37:57 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: B Wald Big Mek Go to Quoted Post


Also, don't forget: F2P=P2W.


No, its not.

There is F2P done right, then there is F2P done wrong (P2W).

F2P does not by default mean P2W.

Dota, LoL, TF2, Hearthstone, World of Tanks, Ghost recon Phantoms, War Thunder, WoW, Path Of Exile, and many many more are not P2W and bring in more money than many other AAA game you can think of, even COD.

Edited by user Monday, April 27, 2015 1:44:22 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#88 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2015 1:55:15 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DUST2DEATH Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: B Wald Big Mek Go to Quoted Post


Also, don't forget: F2P=P2W.


No, its not.

There is F2P done right, then there is F2P done wrong (P2W).

F2P does not by default mean P2W.

Dota, LoL, TF2, Hearthstone, World of Tanks, Ghost recon Phantoms, War Thunder, WoW, Path Of Exile, and many many more are not P2W and bring in more money than many other AAA game you can think of, even COD.


Aye, there are exceptions, but I'm still leery of F2P.

"Precision, finesse, and handling will ALWAYS be defeated by shouting, smoking, and POWER."

-Jeremy Clarkson, explaining how an AMG Merc beat a Maserati on TG track.

I ONLY TUNE GUITARS
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#89 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2015 2:29:24 PM(UTC)
CoD is well on the way to $11 billion so perhaps not the best franchise for comparison. However, some F2P titles do boast very impressive gross sales. My only problem with F2P as a concept is that due to the way in which the developers generate revenue the games are either ridiculously drawn out or they're prohibitively expensive. I'm not a fan of being able to buy success. I personally prefer games that reward skill, judgment and practice rather than the amount you're willing to put on your credit card. I understand that if you're in favour of F2P you can argue that you don't have to spend a lot to be successful at the game. This may be true but you'll inevitably make very slow progress. It also doesn't prevent someone new to the game outstripping you because they've splashed the cash. I'm not saying they're good or bad, just that they're not really my cup of tea.
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#90 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2015 2:46:38 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Dadiodude Go to Quoted Post
CoD is well on the way to $11 billion so perhaps not the best franchise for comparison.


As a franchise as a whole yes. As any single entry of the series, then yes comparisons can be made.

There is mobile platfroms generating double what CoD can.

/OT

Look up a company called DeNA.

http://www.adweek.com/socialtimes/dena-reports-new-earnings-record-with-2-04b-in-revenue-and-775m-in-operating-profit-for-fiscal-year-2012/539395

http://venturebeat.com/2015/04/01/at-25m-a-month-dena-lowballing-its-expectations-with-nintendo-partnership/

VB wrote:
“Top global game franchises generate $1 billion-plus per year,” says Warman. “Examples being Candy Crush, Clash of Clans, Call of Duty, Grand Theft Auto.


VB wrote:

Twenty-five million dollars a month in sales for a Nintendo-made mobile game doesn’t sound like much, even though that translates to a handsome $300 million yearly sales,” Toto said. “You would need to sell around six million full-priced console titles for that, which is not that easy.

“I say this because in Japan alone we have not one but two mobile games that have been pulling in over $100 million per month for a long time now: GungHo Online’s Puzzle & Dragons and Mixi’s Monster Strike. And the vast majority of that revenue comes from Japan only.


CoDs $1 billion in sales does not equal operating profit. Keep that in mind.

There is a big ocean out there, look at the bigger picture.
Nintendo gets it. Up to Sony and MS to see that platforms are better than single entries and software as a service is the future.

/end OT.

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#91 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2015 3:24:29 PM(UTC)
Dust you need a new hobby. Need to take up a new cause bud, your time and energy will be better served.


Just stop. Just sayin.
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#92 Posted : Tuesday, April 28, 2015 9:50:10 AM(UTC)
It's no less than what's already patnet: T10 new physics engine for FM6. It at least it tells us that we'll be seeing and feeling some new razzle dazzle with the new game, which is to be expected as Dan Greenawalt and company continue to push the envelope when it comes to Forza !
" If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari. "
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#93 Posted : Friday, May 15, 2015 5:20:46 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Yakov Alfa Go to Quoted Post
As I was saying, I can't see issues that could possibly arise from having half of the game's physics rely on always being connected to the internet.


What happens when it lags or the internet is down?

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#94 Posted : Friday, May 15, 2015 6:21:50 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Manual Clutch Go to Quoted Post
What happens when it lags or the internet is down?

Yakov Alfa wrote:
Cloud physics is a great idea IMO. I can't see any issues that could possib

EDIT: Sorry, my internet went out momentarily... As I was saying, I can't see issues any issues that could possibly arise from having half of the game's physics rely on always being connected to the internet.

My post was made with heavy sarcasm. My point was that in the event your internet lags or stops completely the physics won't work, and therefore, the game won't work.

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#95 Posted : Friday, May 15, 2015 10:26:15 PM(UTC)
Games that REQUIRE an internet connection AT ALL TIMES are a bad idea IMO. Just look at The Crew or the latest SimCity title. In the case of the latter, mandatory connection combined with garbage servers essentially killed that game.

Games should ALWAYS have an offline mode. The only exception would be MP-only affairs like World of Tanks.
"Precision, finesse, and handling will ALWAYS be defeated by shouting, smoking, and POWER."

-Jeremy Clarkson, explaining how an AMG Merc beat a Maserati on TG track.

I ONLY TUNE GUITARS
Rank: Racing Permit
#96 Posted : Sunday, May 24, 2015 8:19:57 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Yakov Alfa Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Manual Clutch Go to Quoted Post
What happens when it lags or the internet is down?

Yakov Alfa wrote:
Cloud physics is a great idea IMO. I can't see any issues that could possib

EDIT: Sorry, my internet went out momentarily... As I was saying, I can't see issues any issues that could possibly arise from having half of the game's physics rely on always being connected to the internet.

My post was made with heavy sarcasm. My point was that in the event your internet lags or stops completely the physics won't work, and therefore, the game won't work.


lol I got it. Very clever post, a shame to have to explain it
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#97 Posted : Sunday, May 24, 2015 9:39:46 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Yakov Alfa Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Manual Clutch Go to Quoted Post
What happens when it lags or the internet is down?

Yakov Alfa wrote:
Cloud physics is a great idea IMO. I can't see any issues that could possib

EDIT: Sorry, my internet went out momentarily... As I was saying, I can't see issues any issues that could possibly arise from having half of the game's physics rely on always being connected to the internet.

My post was made with heavy sarcasm. My point was that in the event your internet lags or stops completely the physics won't work, and therefore, the game won't work.


I think your sarcasm was heavily missed by some here. Microsoft's cloud and Forza can barely handle communication of game saves over the cloud and the console is two years old. Can you only imagine attempting to have a major component of the game cloud based?

Offline play - no!
No internet - Oh snap, can't play the game!
No XBL Gold - oh no the game doesn't work at all!

It's nothing but a bad idea.

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#98 Posted : Tuesday, May 26, 2015 8:09:24 AM(UTC)
It looks like a good time, to share this link...

http://www.geek.com/game...idth-by-over-80-1623534/

It remains to be seen if the reduction in bandwidth needed, will be enough for game play. But the claim is interesting.

Edited by user Tuesday, May 26, 2015 8:10:32 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Time to hit the road.

Take care!
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#99 Posted : Tuesday, May 26, 2015 9:38:06 AM(UTC)
The concern is more to do with Internet and individual ISP performance. Poor connection = poor or no performance. We're many years away from everyone having solid high speed internet
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#100 Posted : Tuesday, May 26, 2015 3:39:32 PM(UTC)
I understand that, but at least Microsoft reduced the amount of bandwidth needed for a streaming service. We don't know what the minimums are; but hopefully someone with a DSL connection can access any "cloud gaming" features in FM6, if that was to happen. It makes a much wider audience than requiring at least 10Mbps of bandwidth for "cloud gaming" features.
Time to hit the road.

Take care!
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