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Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#26 Posted : Sunday, March 1, 2015 11:13:54 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: darkcwolf Go to Quoted Post
Motorsport 5 is a simulation... A stress simulation....................
At this point for me all forza motorsport is good for is rivals.


Lol.

Literally now the only reason I put the disk in is for series racing. I'm not so serious as TORA stuff, but the races my club holds are enough to keep me coming back. Nothing like a grid of 10+ players keeping it clean in a long race.

I would say though, that I did used to enjoy the Drivatars on the long private races on unbeatable. I think as long as your aware you may get a dive bombed if one is behind you, you can have really fun races. That being said, I have deleted people off my FL because of their Drivatars........
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#27 Posted : Monday, March 2, 2015 2:18:45 AM(UTC)
Am I the only one that hasn't had a bad experience with the Drivatars?
Rank: Driver's License
#28 Posted : Monday, March 2, 2015 5:12:32 AM(UTC)
No Sonic6L, I have the same problem with Drivatars, I think the problem is that because many people drive aggressively against the drivatars, the drivatar that is simulating that persons driving style and so the drivatar drives aggressively lol. And like PGT Claret said: I have ended up deleting friends online because they're drivatars are crazy and stick to you like glue, even if your 45 seconds ahead off the other drivatars you friends drivatar is still right behind you and chasing you.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#29 Posted : Monday, March 2, 2015 5:47:09 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Octane Cobra Go to Quoted Post
No Sonic6L, I have the same problem with Drivatars, I think the problem is that because many people drive aggressively against the drivatars, the drivatar that is simulating that persons driving style and so the drivatar drives aggressively lol. And like PGT Claret said: I have ended up deleting friends online because they're drivatars are crazy and stick to you like glue, even if your 45 seconds ahead off the other drivatars you friends drivatar is still right behind you and chasing you.


I think you misread my post. My experience with drivatars has been good, I've raced against my friends drivatars and not had an issue, even with random drivatars I haven't had an issue. I have had an issue where there is a massive gap between 2nd place and 1st place but I can catch up fairly easily, just not quick enough, the only problem there is, is that the races are too short. I can go from 14th to second within a few corners.

I like the Drivatars :).
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#30 Posted : Monday, March 2, 2015 11:49:40 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Octane Cobra Go to Quoted Post
And like PGT Claret said: I have ended up deleting friends online because they're drivatars are crazy and stick to you like glue, even if your 45 seconds ahead off the other drivatars you friends drivatar is still right behind you and chasing you.


Lol. I deleted them because they seemed to be men possessed - ramming their way through the field and making it impossible to race properly. I don't mind finishing last - so long as I've had a good fight for position.

It's pretty weird, some people's Drivatars are awful, yet I know they're good clean racers. Do the Drivatars "learn" from online or offline play?
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#31 Posted : Monday, March 2, 2015 3:33:41 PM(UTC)
maybe both but defiantly off line. i completed the career before ever going online and my sync was up there. i didn't have test track, the drag strips, or that virus playground since they were not in career mode but it defiantly syncs in single player mode.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#32 Posted : Tuesday, March 3, 2015 9:49:20 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Claret Go to Quoted Post
2-3 lap races is not exactly sim.

It's a Motorsport game.


Lap count has noting to do with simulation. Forza uses data from Calspan for its physics, laser scanned tracks etc in other words you could have a one lap race Forza is still a sim.

Clean Racing with the AI VIDEO
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#33 Posted : Tuesday, March 3, 2015 10:00:15 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Claret Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Octane Cobra Go to Quoted Post
And like PGT Claret said: I have ended up deleting friends online because they're drivatars are crazy and stick to you like glue, even if your 45 seconds ahead off the other drivatars you friends drivatar is still right behind you and chasing you.


Lol. I deleted them because they seemed to be men possessed - ramming their way through the field and making it impossible to race properly. I don't mind finishing last - so long as I've had a good fight for position.

It's pretty weird, some people's Drivatars are awful, yet I know they're good clean racers. Do the Drivatars "learn" from online or offline play?


The Driveatar consists of two parts. The first is a replica of how you drive a circuit for example if I take turn one of Silverstone constantly wide then my Driveatar will take that wide line. Then there is the AI side that you train to race against you, if you are a basher n' crasher (Or simple lack the racing skill) with the AI then you will teach them thats how you like to drive, and the AI bash and crash you back. I am a clean racer so have taught the AI to drive properly for an example of clean racing with the AI watch the video link under my sig.

Clean Racing with the AI VIDEO
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#34 Posted : Tuesday, March 3, 2015 10:20:53 AM(UTC)
I respectfully disagree. Use whatever physics you like - it in no way makes it a sim. Forza has always been advertised as Motorsport rather than sim. GTA has weather cycles, that's not sim. ( pardon the bad example)

I appreciate many try to use it as sim - myself included - by running series style races, but tyre wear, fuel consumption, and complete lack of in-game options prevent that.

There's not even any rules to the game, other than cross the finish line first. No flag system, penalty system, nothing.

There's no qualifying, or point system, and you get gold for finishing 3rd.

In single player you start every race in the series in the same place, and in drag you have no time to set up revs.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#35 Posted : Tuesday, March 3, 2015 11:28:19 AM(UTC)
LOL, Forza 5 is not sim, not even close. It's just not GTA or Need for Speed, etc.

let's just say it's happy to be somewhere in the middle and leave it at that. The best I can say is it's sim enough to not feel arcade ish. But yeah, see posts above about tire wear, pits etc. Not even close.
And the reason I DO like this franchise is series racing and the ease with which a series can be put together, sorely tested this last time around...

2Old4Forza
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#36 Posted : Tuesday, March 3, 2015 3:14:41 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Claret Go to Quoted Post
I respectfully disagree. Use whatever physics you like - it in no way makes it a sim. Forza has always been advertised as Motorsport rather than sim. GTA has weather cycles, that's not sim. ( pardon the bad example)

I appreciate many try to use it as sim - myself included - by running series style races, but tyre wear, fuel consumption, and complete lack of in-game options prevent that.

There's not even any rules to the game, other than cross the finish line first. No flag system, penalty system, nothing.

There's no qualifying, or point system, and you get gold for finishing 3rd.

In single player you start every race in the series in the same place, and in drag you have no time to set up revs.


I think you are confusing physics with race rules. If Need for Speed (Not knocking the game its a great game just using it as an example but its an arcade racer) had flag rules or higher tyre wear would it be a sim, of course not it would still be a arcade racer. Professional F1 teams use simulators but they don't have flag rules are they simulators, yes they are. To be a simulator you have to try and recreate a model of the real world physics as close as possible. So with Turn 10 using data from Calspan (amongst other data providers past and present) and laser scanned tracks is Forza a sim, yes it is.

Just for fun here are some F1 Sim links (No flag rules were hurt in the videos) :-)
McLaren's F1 Simulator with Gary Paffett
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSatAI81k9w

Mark Blundell tests Williams F1 Simulator
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3KUfd4v0Gg

Clean Racing with the AI VIDEO
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#37 Posted : Tuesday, March 3, 2015 3:59:16 PM(UTC)
I see where your coming from, but having one part of the package doesn't equate to sim - in my opinion. But then , I suppose what exactly qualifies for sim? I'd bet there's no true answer to that.....

I mean, when these guys are in their F1 sims, they're driving to rules - the same rules they would in real life. There'd be no corner cutting, and if they did, they wouldnt get stuck on sticky grass. They certainly wouldn't be able to wall ride and get faster laps.

The F1 cars physics are a good example why I think this isnt a sim to be honest. My time on Cat in X class was #1 hardcore time for a few month, and the thing had massive negative rake, and the tyre pressures were way off the real thing. The settings on the tune, if used in real life, the car would have crashed for sure - and that's a common type on tune in Forza.

But, I like these little quirks in Forza - it's what it's good at.

Also, sorry for taking this thread way off topic :-(

Edited by user Tuesday, March 3, 2015 4:01:42 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
User is suspended until 4/9/4753 10:20:36 AM(UTC)
#38 Posted : Tuesday, March 3, 2015 4:58:30 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Claret Go to Quoted Post
I respectfully disagree. Use whatever physics you like - it in no way makes it a sim. Forza has always been advertised as Motorsport rather than sim. GTA has weather cycles, that's not sim. ( pardon the bad example)

I appreciate many try to use it as sim - myself included - by running series style races, but tyre wear, fuel consumption, and complete lack of in-game options prevent that.

There's not even any rules to the game, other than cross the finish line first. No flag system, penalty system, nothing.

There's no qualifying, or point system, and you get gold for finishing 3rd.

In single player you start every race in the series in the same place, and in drag you have no time to set up revs.


You mean cross the finish line 3rd.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#39 Posted : Tuesday, March 3, 2015 11:56:42 PM(UTC)
The fact that FM simulates car behaviour and track makes it a sim in my view. It doesn't simulate any particular motor race however and there are reasons for this. Flags etc would be extremely difficult to introduce as discussed elsewhere but pit stops (animated or otherwise) and tyre wear would be easy. T10 have to make a game that appeals to the millions who purchase it and those particularly wanting endurance events and pit stops make up a small percentage. That said, it's been done before so I don't see an issue with an endurance career series and the option to set up races. Back to Drivatars and AI. It still isn't clear what they're trying to achieve. Initially the Drivatars were to be virtual representations of the player. You would "compete" when offline as would your friends. In this respect they aren't working well and as far as I'm aware you can't influence the behaviour of other people's Drivatars as some suggest. I like to think it's a new system and will improve. If they get this right it'll always be a little more unpredictable than mechanical AI and should "feel" like MP when in career. It could be great if they can iron out the few wrinkles.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#40 Posted : Monday, March 9, 2015 8:22:25 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Sonic6L Go to Quoted Post
Am I the only one that hasn't had a bad experience with the Drivatars?


I have not had any memorably bad experiences with the Drivatars. I would like to see them continue to get development, naturally. It is true that they don't really drive exactly like the person they are based on, but they still behave in less robotic ways than traditional AI. They can pressure you and challenge you on the track, or sometimes they can mess up bad an wreck themselves spectacularly in ways normal AI just doesn't. True, the aggressive behavior is learned, and I think slightly longer races might make a difference there. Since you will have time to pass patiently and not have to ram your way into 3rd place or better from the back within two or three laps, your Drivatar will also learn to be more calculating in its passing behaviors. I still think it's a brilliant concept and I hope to see it carried forward and improved upon further.

I drive a Mustang. Your argument is invalid.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#41 Posted : Thursday, March 26, 2015 7:22:15 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Duke Odyssey Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: T REX 5753 Go to Quoted Post
I think the drivatar system can benefit from longer-ie: more laps per race. That way you don't have to smash and bash your way to the front. That should take care of the crash fest that was FM5!!


Why don't you take your time and make clean passes. If you cant pass a car then learn to finish 7th or whatever position you are in. This is after all a racing sim and not a demolition derby.


Because the races are only 2 or 3 freakin' laps! Unless you've dumbed them way down (or are playing LeMans or the 'ring) there just isn't enough time to pick & choose where to pass. An option to do a qualifying lap would work wonders.

Edited by user Thursday, March 26, 2015 7:24:10 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

"Precision, finesse, and handling will ALWAYS be defeated by shouting, smoking, and POWER."

-Jeremy Clarkson, explaining how an AMG Merc beat a Maserati on TG track.

I ONLY TUNE GUITARS
Rank: Driver's License
#42 Posted : Saturday, March 28, 2015 6:53:20 PM(UTC)
It's true these short laps certainly bring out the worst in drivers to accomplish what they consider to be a proper finish. But I think there are courses that bring out better driver behavior than others - which consequently reflects in the Drivatars driving behavior. Course at first I just figured T10 coded Rossi into every drivatar I race against but then again.....

I hope we will see in FM6 the return of the endurance racing that was in FM3 and FM4 - the 8 to 24 laps - then the tire and engine physics will certainly come into play as well as true driving behavior. A 3 lap race in career mode is warm up when considering the time put in tuning a car and testing it....or maybe that's just me. Heck you don't even see real tire ware by the end of three races.

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#43 Posted : Saturday, April 11, 2015 1:07:28 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: B Wald Big Mek Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Duke Odyssey Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: T REX 5753 Go to Quoted Post
I think the drivatar system can benefit from longer-ie: more laps per race. That way you don't have to smash and bash your way to the front. That should take care of the crash fest that was FM5!!


Why don't you take your time and make clean passes. If you cant pass a car then learn to finish 7th or whatever position you are in. This is after all a racing sim and not a demolition derby.


Because the races are only 2 or 3 freakin' laps! Unless you've dumbed them way down (or are playing LeMans or the 'ring) there just isn't enough time to pick & choose where to pass. An option to do a qualifying lap would work wonders.


Hence my statement "If you cant pass a car then learn to finish 7th or whatever position you are in. This is after all a racing sim and not a demolition derby."

Clean Racing with the AI VIDEO
Rank: Driver's Permit
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#44 Posted : Tuesday, April 14, 2015 6:20:36 PM(UTC)
I found the drivatars in Horizon 2 to be much more frustrating than on the track in FM5. In H2 they will consistently push you into trees, overpass pillars, etc. as they have no awareness of your location and will drive their crappy line no matter what.
Rank: On the Podium
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#45 Posted : Wednesday, April 15, 2015 9:17:33 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Duke Odyssey Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: B Wald Big Mek Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Duke Odyssey Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: T REX 5753 Go to Quoted Post
I think the drivatar system can benefit from longer-ie: more laps per race. That way you don't have to smash and bash your way to the front. That should take care of the crash fest that was FM5!!


Why don't you take your time and make clean passes. If you cant pass a car then learn to finish 7th or whatever position you are in. This is after all a racing sim and not a demolition derby.


Because the races are only 2 or 3 freakin' laps! Unless you've dumbed them way down (or are playing LeMans or the 'ring) there just isn't enough time to pick & choose where to pass. An option to do a qualifying lap would work wonders.


Hence my statement "If you cant pass a car then learn to finish 7th or whatever position you are in. This is after all a racing sim and not a demolition derby."


Its not a racing sim in career mode. Its just a pointless repetitive task with an implied goal to finish third.

Nothing about the actual racing in the career is sim. Its a free for all until you get around 5th on the grid and I find hard to believe people haven't had drivatar issues unless maybe they purchased the game late.

Day 1 career race 1 I was destroyed numerous times by idiotic drivatars. Race clean all you want and you still got taken out. It wasn't until t10 nerffed the drivatars that at least half the field were somewhat predictable/logical in their race craft.

I could take a #1 tune in multiplayer and cleanly win the race after starting last in 3 laps. In career it was exceptionally rare to have that happen. The short career races are a big reason for the terrible drivatars.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#46 Posted : Wednesday, April 15, 2015 5:16:50 PM(UTC)
Totally agree. Everyone is pushed to fight the drivatars initially in way too short a race, and the drivatars learned this behavior inadvertly and made it even worse. Its a system set up to teach what you don't want learned.

2Old4Forza
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#47 Posted : Wednesday, April 15, 2015 10:41:51 PM(UTC)
Very true but that brings us back to race length. The mad scramble for position through the first couple of corners is common in all game modes and extending races by just one lap would help.
Rank: Driver's License
#48 Posted : Thursday, April 16, 2015 1:04:59 AM(UTC)
Ah, the Endurance racing of FM1, how my friends loathed it, and I loved it...
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#49 Posted : Thursday, April 16, 2015 3:37:26 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Dadiodude Go to Quoted Post
Very true but that brings us back to race length. The mad scramble for position through the first couple of corners is common in all game modes and extending races by just one lap would help.


The endurance "hoppers" availablel now, while not meeting my definition of endurance DO help this situation and the lap count increase is modest at best. But I think one lap increase might be a bit too modest.
On all but the largest tracks I'd like to see minimum 5 lap races.


2Old4Forza
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#50 Posted : Thursday, April 16, 2015 7:52:15 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Indignant Yeti Go to Quoted Post
I found the drivatars in Horizon 2 to be much more frustrating than on the track in FM5. In H2 they will consistently push you into trees, overpass pillars, etc. as they have no awareness of your location and will drive their crappy line no matter what.


Thats a different game and since its arcade people probably crash their way more into the front as evidenced in MP.


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