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Rank: D-Class Racing License
#1 Posted : Saturday, February 14, 2015 3:42:34 PM(UTC)
The subject has been discussed to death I know but this is meant to discuss the direction it should go or hopefully will go in the future. Some people like it some people hate it in the current state. I'm in the group that does not care for the current version but feel that with some new tweaks see it being a better idea than right now. A few things I hope Turn 10 has looked into or are going to implement in the future.
Make sure that only the tracks that can be run circuit style or drag style are counted for the % of completion.

Reduce the the amount of laps required to "first sync up" your Drivatar.( We don't need to do 10 laps per track to collect early data)

Make it so a total 100% sync is only possible with every class of car used on all qualifying tracks( You can drive a F1 car way different than a D class car on a given track)

Any lap that uses rewind is not counted in any way.(This might already be used but if not it should be)

Regardless of your friends list if they do not drive or have collected data for a certain class of Drivatar they will not be used.( Little Jonny that uses your XB1 to play and is on your friends list should not be a unbeatable driver)

Faster or more frequent data collection to advance the system.(Daily updates of qualifying data to improve the system also the reason you should not have to do as many laps at first to sync up)


That is just a little of what I hope to see used to better the system. If you dont race C class you should not have a Drivatar in game in C class. I think the current idea is good but if someone just used the E21 to rush through to sync up to the max is not getting the 100% best data to use when it comes to his or her D class Drivatar.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
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#2 Posted : Saturday, February 14, 2015 6:31:11 PM(UTC)
I think the drivatar system can benefit from longer-ie: more laps per race. That way you don't have to smash and bash your way to the front. That should take care of the crash fest that was FM5!!
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#3 Posted : Sunday, February 15, 2015 1:15:42 AM(UTC)
Firstly we'd have to know what the Drivater actually is and how it's programmed. In order to be a virtual copy of each of us then data would have to be collected on every track in every class and possibly in different cars. The system would need to know how you drive in traffic, in clear air, your different lines, braking points how you pass and how you defend then compute a virtual you in every race and scenario. This would have to be done for every player - perhaps 2.5 million by this stage of FM5s life. This would be a monumental task and even then the data is constantly changing as people improve or play differently. In my experience Drivatars don't mimick the player they're representing very closely at all. It may be that there is a much broader range of AI and your Gamertag is applied to the one closest to you or that there is an attempt at true replication but FM5 is early stages and there's a long way to go to refine it. I agree with T Rex in that the more data you collect the more accurate the model. To do it properly you'd never stop collecting data.

I long ago stopped thinking of Drivatars as people and just think of them as regular AI.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#4 Posted : Sunday, February 15, 2015 3:30:06 AM(UTC)
i am of the opinion that it was better to race against the AI than these drivatars. I don't know why but even on the easiest setting, the front drivatar controlled car would always seem to be just a tad bit faster than me, even though I consistently set times in the top 1000. (this might be because someone on my friends list is just a tad bit faster than I am.)

sometimes I am just in the mood to set the game to easy and see how many times I can lap these cars before the race is over, this stopped with fm5. one of the few disappointments I have with this game.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#5 Posted : Sunday, February 15, 2015 9:21:36 AM(UTC)
I personally think the Drivatars work pretty well depending on the environment. I tried career mode a few week ago to practice using the wheel, and it was savage. Properly brutal. Drivatars would dive bomb each other, and basically brake-check on slight bends.

However, if You set up a private race, with some friends if you like, and fill the rest of the grid with AI on unbeatable, for say 15 laps, the Drivatars come into their own.

There isn't the frustration of trying to pass them all in 3 laps, and as long as you remember they aren't actually real people the racing can be very enjoyable. I consider myself quite a good driver, but a few times I've been caught napping and the Drivatar pulled off a good clean overtake on me.

Also, as with the hoppers, it seems that the further forward in the pack you get, the cleaner the opposition are.
Rank: On the Podium
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#6 Posted : Sunday, February 15, 2015 11:16:46 AM(UTC)
How glad I am to see you providing some meaningful ways to improve the Drivatar system, phoxxy10. Traditional AI is antiquated and could only provide so much of a challenge before something like this would have to be implemented and, without understanding the algorithms behind the scenes, you point out some possible ways that Drivatars might be improved.

I am confident that with some of the ideas you've raised and of course the developer's knowledge of how Drivatars operate, we're going to end up with some pretty darn good offline competition sooner rather than later.

Thank you for sharing!
Rank: X-Class Racing License
#7 Posted : Sunday, February 15, 2015 12:00:17 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Dadiodude Go to Quoted Post
Firstly we'd have to know what the Drivater actually is and how it's programmed.


In both FM5 and FH2 there is a statistics section in one of the menus. If you take a look at this data, it is a good chunk of what goes into your drivatar data.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#8 Posted : Sunday, February 15, 2015 2:34:56 PM(UTC)
True, the game does store quite a few stats and it would be interesting to know how or if this info is applied. I've raced against Drivatars of guys who are quicker than me but I can still beat they're Drivatar. There's also the problems associated with erratic and unpredictable Drivatar behaviour and this occurs even when the player himself is typically smooth and consistent. Having said that there is the odd race where the Drivatars are reasonably clean and not too wayward in the corners. At the end of the day it's all AI so it'll never behave exactly like the person but it's a cool idea and I hope they stick with it and continue to improve it.
Rank: On the Podium
#9 Posted : Sunday, February 15, 2015 2:55:08 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Dadiodude Go to Quoted Post
At the end of the day it's all AI so it'll never behave exactly like the person but it's a cool idea and I hope they stick with it and continue to improve it.


Exactly. A misconception about Drivatars seems to be that they drive exactly as their real life counterparts do. This is just isn't true because the Drivatars are still throttled according to the user's difficulty settings. Drivatars merely attempt to mimic the driving style of their respective Gamertags ... otherwise Turn 10 could just use ghost data to replicate the gamer's driving to a "T", although that would make it rather hectic with multiple Drivatars attempting to assume the same driving line at one time.

Edited by user Sunday, February 15, 2015 2:56:05 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#10 Posted : Sunday, February 15, 2015 5:26:15 PM(UTC)
One thing we need is for Drivatars to take mechanical damage. When last I played FM5, they could take damage in multiplayer but only cosmetic in the championships and not even that in free play. After being able to be damaged, they then need to care about damage, not wanting to bang up and break their cars. That should help the chaos quite a bit. Further, we need to segregate Drivatars based on whether or not their players run with damage on. Players with damage off would likely behave differently from players who will suffer from playing bumper-cars.

Originally Posted by: phoxxy10 Go to Quoted Post

Any lap that uses rewind is not counted in any way.(This might already be used but if not it should be)


It's not a lap-by-lap thing. It's isolated instances of behavior. With that said, in an interview they said it logs player data up until they rewind. If the player brakes too late, locks up and slides way off into armco, then rewinds, it logs the late brake, skid, and crash, not what they do after rewinding.

Originally Posted by: T REX 5753 Go to Quoted Post
I think the drivatar system can benefit from longer-ie: more laps per race. That way you don't have to smash and bash your way to the front. That should take care of the crash fest that was FM5!!


I've always suspected the short races to be part of the problem. We start out at the back and get five minutes to try to cleanly overtake the entire field. While we're stuck behind slowpokes running three across, we are faced with the choice of either ramming our way through or patiently waiting while the front-runners put half a lap between us. I think if we had more time to wait for clean passes it would improve Drivatar behavior.

Originally Posted by: Wh1t3Kn1te Go to Quoted Post
i am of the opinion that it was better to race against the AI than these drivatars. I don't know why but even on the easiest setting, the front drivatar controlled car would always seem to be just a tad bit faster than me, even though I consistently set times in the top 1000. (this might be because someone on my friends list is just a tad bit faster than I am.)


Drivatar skill varies not by player skill but by difficulty setting. You can have a top-1% and bottom-1% player Drivatar in the same race, both on matching Drivatar skill settings. However, the game seems to select Drivatars to be your primary competition and sets them a bit higher than the field average.

I'd swear in 2013 my main rivals were my friends who started near me at the back, and they also had to overtake the field, but then it seemed like it changed and friend Drivatars stayed at the back but my rivals were selected now from the front. If so, I like the old way better because it's more interesting and more fair. I hate being stuck at the back knowing my main rival is up front with nobody in his way.
Still I Rise
Rank: Racing Legend
#11 Posted : Sunday, February 15, 2015 6:19:25 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: phoxxy10 Go to Quoted Post

Reduce the the amount of laps required to "first sync up" your Drivatar.( We don't need to do 10 laps per track to collect early data)



The 10 laps is only needed for 100%.

It starts collecting data and being used on the track before then.

I personally enjoyed the drivatars, even version 1 (ie before the update that tamed them). I know many others didn't.

That is why my view is there should be options for drivatar aggression, difficulty and race length.

Edited by user Sunday, February 15, 2015 7:47:22 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I blame the ants.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#12 Posted : Sunday, February 15, 2015 7:12:13 PM(UTC)
there were serious flaws in fm1 sat, especially since racing drivatar vs drivatar was an actual form of competition. it went off rmps and following the suggested line, not speed, lap times etc..... to get the fastest drivatar you had to select a manual transmission, never shift out of 1st gear, and keep it as redlined as you could without blowing the engine all the way around king cobra. but drivatars are no worse than ai in other games as far as i can tell, i dont have a problem with them. my problems with fm1 drivatars weren't with the drivatars, it was the way data for them was collected for them. to me not shifting is something i never thought of until i read it on the net. it made no sense. it was like a glitched based learning system where if you didn't know the glitch you were handicapped in drivatar vs drivatar competitions. the fastest guy in forza should not have lost races to some noob who was bored enough to drive lap after lap in 1st gear to discover he had the fastest drivatar. i was not the fastest nor the noob, but i was left wondering why it was programmed that way. rpms win races? then 4 cylinder engines would beat any v8 and thats just not real life, not sim.

Edited by user Sunday, February 15, 2015 7:16:43 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: On the Podium
#13 Posted : Sunday, February 15, 2015 7:24:19 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: IceMan PJN Go to Quoted Post
One thing we need is for Drivatars to take mechanical damage. When last I played FM5, they could take damage in multiplayer but only cosmetic in the championships and not even that in free play. After being able to be damaged, they then need to care about damage, not wanting to bang up and break their cars. That should help the chaos quite a bit. Further, we need to segregate Drivatars based on whether or not their players run with damage on. Players with damage off would likely behave differently from players who will suffer from playing bumper-cars.


Excellent points, IceMan PJN. The Drivatar's nonchalant attitudes in regards to their driving machine does not do the system any favors in creating the sense of realism.
Rank: Racing Legend
#14 Posted : Sunday, February 15, 2015 7:46:49 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: rdo3 Go to Quoted Post
there were serious flaws in fm1 sat, especially since racing drivatar vs drivatar was an actual form of competition. it went off rmps and following the suggested line, not speed, lap times etc..... to get the fastest drivatar you had to select a manual transmission, never shift out of 1st gear, and keep it as redlined as you could without blowing the engine all the way around king cobra. but drivatars are no worse than ai in other games as far as i can tell, i dont have a problem with them. my problems with fm1 drivatars weren't with the drivatars, it was the way data for them was collected for them. to me not shifting is something i never thought of until i read it on the net. it made no sense. it was like a glitched based learning system where if you didn't know the glitch you were handicapped in drivatar vs drivatar competitions. the fastest guy in forza should not have lost races to some noob who was bored enough to drive lap after lap in 1st gear to discover he had the fastest drivatar. i was not the fastest nor the noob, but i was left wondering why it was programmed that way. rpms win races? then 4 cylinder engines would beat any v8 and thats just not real life, not sim.


Sorry rdo I meant the drivatars in FM5 before the update that tamed them.
I blame the ants.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#15 Posted : Monday, February 16, 2015 3:22:50 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: The Shadow Edge Go to Quoted Post


Exactly. A misconception about Drivatars seems to be that they drive exactly as their real life counterparts do. This is just isn't true because the Drivatars are still throttled according to the user's difficulty settings.


I am not quite sure about that. The difficulty is user adjusted and the Drivtars that match that difficulty are used.

Rank: On the Podium
#16 Posted : Monday, February 16, 2015 7:49:10 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: uber understeer Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: The Shadow Edge Go to Quoted Post


Exactly. A misconception about Drivatars seems to be that they drive exactly as their real life counterparts do. This is just isn't true because the Drivatars are still throttled according to the user's difficulty settings.


I am not quite sure about that. The difficulty is user adjusted and the Drivtars that match that difficulty are used.



Well, sure. Drivatars are associated with the difficulty that their counterparts drive at. I suppose what I should have said is that Drivatars, on all levels, are not a one-for-one representation of their associated Gamertag drivers and are throttled to make the gamer more competitive. That is to say, if I raced against the users associated with the Drivatars I faced in single player, I would not be finishing with gold medals every race as I did in the career mode.

Edited by user Monday, February 16, 2015 7:51:45 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#17 Posted : Monday, February 23, 2015 11:39:50 AM(UTC)
Drivatars are a much better option than the old AI was. I would like to see them be the ones who have at least purchased the game as opposed to any game in the Forza series. In Horizon 2 a good number of the drivatars in my races were level 1 indicating the gamer associated with the tag did not even own the game. This happened with those on my friends list who chose not to get Horizon as well as the random ones who fill out once your 5 friends are in the series. I think that having my Horizon 2 drivatar turn up in FM6 would not endear me to a lot of people, especially If my cross country alter ego is the one to show up. My FM5 drivatar is, I hope, a more respectful driver.

Edited by user Monday, February 23, 2015 11:40:35 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
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#18 Posted : Monday, February 23, 2015 1:28:09 PM(UTC)
Drivatars are total bull. The AI isn´t really better than in Forza 4. Drivatars just represents the level of aggression, which you can adjust in racing sims like rFactor for your own taste from 1 to 100%. IMHO the by far most realistic AI in all racing games you will find in Raceroom Racing Experience. You´re always driving in a field of cars and the car in the back will overtake if you make a little mistake. In Forza 5 i was mostly driving alone after one lap when racing in this free mode in every AI level or just overtaking cars which are to slow in the career mode. This is not racing. The AI in R3E is like racing multiplayer with fair opponents.

Edited by user Monday, February 23, 2015 1:32:15 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#19 Posted : Tuesday, February 24, 2015 6:00:29 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Leynadji Go to Quoted Post
Drivatars are total bull. The AI isn´t really better than in Forza 4. Drivatars just represents the level of aggression, which you can adjust in racing sims like rFactor for your own taste from 1 to 100%. IMHO the by far most realistic AI in all racing games you will find in Raceroom Racing Experience. You´re always driving in a field of cars and the car in the back will overtake if you make a little mistake. In Forza 5 i was mostly driving alone after one lap when racing in this free mode in every AI level or just overtaking cars which are to slow in the career mode. This is not racing. The AI in R3E is like racing multiplayer with fair opponents.


Especially since they dont even overtake properly as I found out on the Mulsanne track. Just stay behind each other in one line constantly braking until a turn comes up; prefer Fm4's AI (Freeplay at least not career as that was too easy.)

Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#20 Posted : Thursday, February 26, 2015 8:56:25 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: T REX 5753 Go to Quoted Post
I think the drivatar system can benefit from longer-ie: more laps per race. That way you don't have to smash and bash your way to the front. That should take care of the crash fest that was FM5!!

Indeed! One of the biggest pains in the a$$ in Forza 5 was the fact that you were ALWAYS placed on the very last position in the beginning of the race, no matter how you performed in the last heat/race. That's not making it more challenging, that's just frustrating and cheap.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#21 Posted : Sunday, March 1, 2015 10:50:55 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: T REX 5753 Go to Quoted Post
I think the drivatar system can benefit from longer-ie: more laps per race. That way you don't have to smash and bash your way to the front. That should take care of the crash fest that was FM5!!


Why don't you take your time and make clean passes. If you cant pass a car then learn to finish 7th or whatever position you are in. This is after all a racing sim and not a demolition derby.

Clean Racing with the AI VIDEO
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#22 Posted : Sunday, March 1, 2015 11:08:28 AM(UTC)
2-3 lap races is not exactly sim.

It's a Motorsport game.
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#23 Posted : Sunday, March 1, 2015 1:34:02 PM(UTC)
there are alot of games, very few sims. sim is what makes forza more desirable than need for speed or pgr. i gree 2-3 is not sim, but motorsport needs to get back to sim. leave the "just a game" stuff for horizons.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#24 Posted : Sunday, March 1, 2015 4:52:51 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Claret Go to Quoted Post


It's a Motorsport game.


Since when ??
Rank: Driver's Permit
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#25 Posted : Sunday, March 1, 2015 9:44:40 PM(UTC)
The drivatars have been my biggest gripe about this game. I don't know how many times I've benn dive-bombed from 10 car lengths back. Motorsport 5 is a simulation... A stress simulation. I go into a race and I'm constantly paranoid that I'm going to be taken out. I've been playing on unbeatable and the "AI" is just way to aggressive. Always trying to pass at any given corner. The next step down is to easy. I was doing a private race 20 laps around Road America and got through the field in 3 laps then left them after that and nearly lapped the back markers at the end.
Longer races would help I think. Its kinda dumb having to beat and bang your way from 10th in 2-3 laps just to get a gold in a career race. Also they need to somehow build a way that the drivatars can asses the situation and determine if a pass could be made successfully. Not just hail mary it in every corner. Sure every once in a while in a big braking zone they would try to out brake you. but its all about risk vs reward. And to the drivatars there isn't that. The only other thing I have to say on the subject of these drivatars is there way of getting back on track. Something is programmed into them that as soon as they leave the track they must make it back to the racing line ASAP. That is another think that always bothered me. You think your clear and then Bam! A car is in your door because he wants to get to the racing line.
At this point for me all forza motorsport is good for is rivals. Big waste of $60 imo. And as a fan of the series since the first. It is very disappointing and could very well be likely the last motorsport I purchase. Sorry that was so long winded.
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