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Rank: Driver's License
#1 Posted : Wednesday, December 17, 2014 9:05:42 PM(UTC)
This has seriously been bugging me since the release of the game especially since i can't find one single discussion about this which makes me think i might be missing something.

Anyhow this is my issue and i should state that i really don't want to use the race aero parts, I've been trying to make a Ford Focus RS (and many other hatchbacks) A class rally build that is satisfying to race with however the default tune is completely undrivable with extremely bad oversteer thats next to impossible to save. The final product of my tuning setups have crazy extremes that basically softens the entire rear, removing all support there but after this i still get loads of oversteer at medium to high speeds which is easier to deal with but still slows me down far too much and as an addition to the extremes i get low speed understeer. I've spent many, many hours trying to figure this out and asked as many people as i could but every answer i get is "just put a rear wing on it"
Rank: Racing Legend
#2 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 1:06:53 AM(UTC)
I have had a look at the car and driven it.

To be honest I don't think it has oversteer. If anything it is stubborn to turn and therefore you may be trying harder to get it to turn which results in oversteer.

But if any of the default settings are oversteer inducing I would look at reducing front rebound by 0.5 to get a front/rear neutral balance as a starting point.
I blame the ants.
Rank: Driver's License
#3 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 3:09:05 AM(UTC)
I usually use sports tyres but since the dlc came out i did a rally conversion because its a rally build however, despite making it a little more grippy it hasn't really changed much i mean it turns into corners just as fast as any of my other awd cars, its just the rear slides uncontrollably and I'm truly trying to avoid the race aero because its ugly for starters and A class is a bit slow to start using them. I never had this problem on previous forza games, if i made a hatchback on forza 4 for example i could just use a benchmark setup i usually use for coupes, sedans or even 4x4's and it drove exactly as i expected it to but this has in my opinion become a big problem since i love racing those little nimble cars and I've been forced to avoid them because of this.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#4 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 3:52:46 AM(UTC)
If it's the appearance that matters then it looks like your out of luck some cars you can tweak and tweak and then you realise rear aero is a must for the traction you need to carry the kind of speeds you want through a corner otherwise you need to take the corner slower. As for saying A is a bit slow of a class to start adding aero is imo is wrong, some of the cars i have built in this and previous Forza's have carried aero (as appearance is not high on my agenda) and can produce fast times on the LB's and have dominated public lobby races and that's with other people than myself driving them.
Quality not quantity
Rank: Racing Legend
#5 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 4:52:06 AM(UTC)
I am confused. Do you have it using default settings or are you tuning it yourself?

If you are ok doing so post your tune here. If you would prefer not to make it public but would be willing to share it with me send it to me in a private message and I will have a look.
I blame the ants.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#6 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 5:27:22 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: such noob wow Go to Quoted Post
I usually use sports tyres but since the dlc came out i did a rally conversion because its a rally build however, despite making it a little more grippy it hasn't really changed much i mean it turns into corners just as fast as any of my other awd cars, its just the rear slides uncontrollably and I'm truly trying to avoid the race aero because its ugly for starters and A class is a bit slow to start using them. I never had this problem on previous forza games, if i made a hatchback on forza 4 for example i could just use a benchmark setup i usually use for coupes, sedans or even 4x4's and it drove exactly as i expected it to but this has in my opinion become a big problem since i love racing those little nimble cars and I've been forced to avoid them because of this.


There are all sorts of things you can do to decrease oversteer in an AWD car, although I must say the usual problem with AWD is too much understeer. To decrease oversteer you might start with the build by simply installing a wider rear tire and narrower front tire. That should be a good start if you haven't already done it. But there are so many different places on a track your car could get squirrely -- acceleration, deceleration, high speed, low speed, tarmac, gravel, off road, etc. -- it's practically impossible to fix without seeing your current build and knowing precisely when you lose grip.
Rank: X-Class Racing License
#7 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 7:59:27 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: such noob wow Go to Quoted Post
This has seriously been bugging me since the release of the game especially since i can't find one single discussion about this which makes me think i might be missing something.

Anyhow this is my issue and i should state that i really don't want to use the race aero parts, I've been trying to make a Ford Focus RS (and many other hatchbacks) A class rally build that is satisfying to race with however the default tune is completely undrivable with extremely bad oversteer thats next to impossible to save. The final product of my tuning setups have crazy extremes that basically softens the entire rear, removing all support there but after this i still get loads of oversteer at medium to high speeds which is easier to deal with but still slows me down far too much and as an addition to the extremes i get low speed understeer. I've spent many, many hours trying to figure this out and asked as many people as i could but every answer i get is "just put a rear wing on it"


After work today I can take a look at it and see what I can come up with. Haven't driven the car in this game yet, but I loved it in FH1. It was my go to in it's category and class.
Rank: Driver's License
#8 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 12:48:46 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: HandheldBee9 Go to Quoted Post
As for saying A is a bit slow of a class to start adding aero is imo is wrong, some of the cars i have built in this and previous Forza's have carried aero (as appearance is not high on my agenda) and can produce fast times on the LB's and have dominated public lobby races and that's with other people than myself driving them.


I have no doubt that some people can get some pretty quick times with aero on A class cars, it just doesn't suit my usual setups. To suit my setups I'd probably have to downgrade my tyres otherwise it hinders my cars performance more than actually improving it.

When i get home I'll post my setup along with the list of upgrades i used
Rank: Racing Legend
#9 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 2:38:03 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: such noob wow Go to Quoted Post


I have no doubt that some people can get some pretty quick times with aero on A class cars, it just doesn't suit my usual setups. To suit my setups I'd probably have to downgrade my tyres otherwise it hinders my cars performance more than actually improving it.


On AWD cars you don't need a lot of rear downforce so adjust it so you get the turn you want from front aero and reduce the rear aero to quite low.

Aero is beneficial in A class cross country even with sport or race tyres. I usually use sport tyres and aeros in A class cross country but do have some successful builds with race or stock tyres but sport seems to be the sweet spot in my opinion.

I blame the ants.
Rank: Driver's License
#10 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 10:44:22 PM(UTC)
These are the upgrades I've chosen for the 2009 Ford Focus RS

Conversion:
All wheel drive

Engine:
Sports intake
Street fuel system
Sports exhaust
Street camshaft
Sports flywheel

Platform and handling:
Race brakes
Rally suspension
Race anti-roll bars front and rear
Race chassis/roll cage
Race weight reduction

Drivetrain:
Race clutch
Rally transmission
Race differential

Tyres and rims:
Rally tyres
Tyre width is 255 front and rear (235 or 245 on the front makes it too responsive for the rear)
Superturismo gt O.Z rims (not that it matters too much)

and i have no aero because this car has possibly the worst looking rear wing i have ever seen in any game... its suited for a troll car

The tuning setup is extremely weird and i must emphasize on that because I've had to take extreme measures to get it to even closely handle as good as it does, it handles alright i just feel like it really isn't as good as it should be.

Tyre pressure:
Front - 28psi
Rear - 25psi

Alignment:
Front camber - -.07°
Rear camber - -0.2°
Front toe - 0.2°
Rear toe - -0.4°
Caster is stock, i don't know much about what the caster angle does

Anti-roll bars:
Front - 19.00
Rear - 1.00

Springs:
Front stiffness - around 270 to 275lbs
Rear stiffness - 210 to 220lbs
Front ride height - 6.5 inches
Rear ride height - 6 inches

I usually just leave damping stock

Differential:
Front acceleration - 35%
Front deceleration - 40%
Rear acceleration - 20%
Rear dedeceleration - 30%
Centre diff - 50%
Rank: Driver's License
#11 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 10:51:17 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SatNiteEduardo Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: such noob wow Go to Quoted Post


I have no doubt that some people can get some pretty quick times with aero on A class cars, it just doesn't suit my usual setups. To suit my setups I'd probably have to downgrade my tyres otherwise it hinders my cars performance more than actually improving it.


On AWD cars you don't need a lot of rear downforce so adjust it so you get the turn you want from front aero and reduce the rear aero to quite low.


Normally i would agree with you however i don't think you quite understand, you seriously need to make literally any hatchback it seems all wheel drive and put it in A class or even S1 class with 'no' rear aero, it is unbearable to drive with default tuning settings, a headache to tune and even then it feels like it handles really wrong
Rank: Driver's License
#12 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 11:15:23 PM(UTC)
Looking at the tune specs i can tell you a few things wrong with tune.
1) rear psi should be higher
2) front and rear camber should be higher

Edited by user Thursday, December 18, 2014 11:27:39 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

xSpeedLess
Rank: Racing Legend
 1 user liked this post.
#13 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 11:22:00 PM(UTC)
Your tune is way out of balance.

Do not have such a large gap between front and rear tyre pressure and camber.

I propose 29/29 and significantly more front camber and have rear camber equal front to start with.
I blame the ants.
Rank: Driver's License
#14 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 11:25:10 PM(UTC)
3) caster should be higher than stock.
4) anti roll bars need to be swtched ie. 1. In front and 19 (still too high btw) in back
5) springs should have more lbs on the back. (more than front)
6) damping needs lowering
7) diff is all wrong... Decel should be lower then accel. And centre diff i would give a 60% back to front.

Edited by user Thursday, December 18, 2014 11:26:47 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

xSpeedLess
Rank: Driver's License
#15 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 11:48:14 PM(UTC)
I know its out of balance and i know what looks completely wrong, I've stated a few times that everything with awd hatchbacks is completely wrong and need extremes, they do not at all handle like they should nor do they handle like an awd sedan, coupe or 4x4 and that is why i started this topic, so i could find a solution to this and i posted my setup to show you all what i am having to deal with.

Also its a rally car setup, 31-33psi is not an ideal tyre pressure offroad at optimal tyre temperatures
Rank: Racing Legend
#16 Posted : Friday, December 19, 2014 12:23:17 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: such noob wow Go to Quoted Post
I know its out of balance and i know what looks completely wrong, I've stated a few times that everything with awd hatchbacks is completely wrong and need extremes, they do not at all handle like they should nor do they handle like an awd sedan, coupe or 4x4 and that is why i started this topic, so i could find a solution to this and i posted my setup to show you all what i am having to deal with.

Also its a rally car setup, 31-33psi is not an ideal tyre pressure offroad at optimal tyre temperatures


Um I think I know a little about tuning for cross country in A class, particularly on storm island.

The tyre pressure settings and camber settings pointed out to you are out of balance and oversteer causing NOT oversteer curing.

And with AWD hatchbacks you do not need the settings you have.

Which Focus are you working with? the old one or the new one ie which year? EDIT: sorry see that its the 09. Lets see what I can do with it.

Edited by user Friday, December 19, 2014 12:25:59 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I blame the ants.
Rank: Racing Legend
#17 Posted : Friday, December 19, 2014 1:24:35 AM(UTC)
Ok just did my own build and tune on the Focus RS 2009 and set the #5 time on West Hill Cross Country Circuit.

I am not happy with the time but if you look at the vehicles around me I think its clear that this track and this car may not suit each other. I just plucked a track I had not run a good time on yet.

My tyre pressures are 29.0/29.5. I set my time on lap 2 and have no idea what the warm pressures were but I have tested on dirt before and usually end up close to the default 30 at both ends.

Camber I won't give the exact figures but rear camber had more negative camber than front by 0.2.

Toe...well I don't use toe usually but here I am using 0.1/-0.1.

Caster is a secret lol but if you want stability or slower turning then increase it. I suggest that is a bad idea though.

ARBs. um not telling lol but I like what Speedless said - flip them and tweak from there. Yes it will make the car turn easier. I still think you are causing the oversteer yourself due to the car not turning easily. Not only is there a concept like throttle control but there is also steering control. My cars turn easily so I input less steering.

Springs - bring them closer together. Rear can be slightly lower than front but not much.

Learn damping. This is a big issue because you are using default FWD damping on an AWD vehicle. Reduce the gap front to rear. My rebound only differs around 0.1 to 0.2 front to back and same with bump. Rally damping is something that I still need to test more but start with something like 7.0/7.0 and 2.0/2.0.

Diff - hmm. not sure how much to say here. your accel figures are low, particularly at the rear and get rid of the decel. you have the car hard to turn off gas and I suspect therefore you are trying too hard to get it to turn on gas and therefore inducing oversteer again.

Now I used aero. High front / low rear. I want my awd vehicles to turn.

Now build - get rid of the flywheel. I personally have a very different engine build and no roll cage and a few other differences but get rid of the flywheel. I believe that will help slightly with your issue.

If you choose to disagree with this just understand you are disagreeing with a current top 5 build and tune.

If you want me to I will share it on the sharefront so you can try it but I suspect you will have the same complaints about it to be honest. Yes it does have a natural oversteer but I roll with it as I can use it to make turning easier.

Edited by user Friday, December 19, 2014 1:59:37 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I blame the ants.
Rank: Driver's License
#18 Posted : Friday, December 19, 2014 1:28:18 AM(UTC)
I'm not trying to start an arguement and I'd much rather avoid one however 29psi is just a bit too high for a 3000lbs car offroad. The optimal cold tyre pressure for a rally car for maximum grip on gravel and dirt is around 26-28psi depending on the conditions, weight of the car and the stage itself, a tarmac rally stage on the other hand is where you'd be looking to up the tyre pressure by about 1 or 2psi of whatever your tyre pressures are in regular offroad conditions. In the real world not only is this for the best performance this is also to avoid bursting a tyre when hitting stones and rocks but to also avoid bending or damaging a rim beyond future use in case you do burst a tyre. You might be right about something much heavier like a trophy truck or dakar truck though, i never had much interest in racing 4x4's offroad
Rank: Racing Legend
#19 Posted : Friday, December 19, 2014 1:57:10 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: such noob wow Go to Quoted Post
I'm not trying to start an arguement and I'd much rather avoid one however 29psi is just a bit too high for a 3000lbs car offroad. The optimal cold tyre pressure for a rally car for maximum grip on gravel and dirt is around 26-28psi depending on the conditions, weight of the car and the stage itself, a tarmac rally stage on the other hand is where you'd be looking to up the tyre pressure by about 1 or 2psi of whatever your tyre pressures are in regular offroad conditions. In the real world not only is this for the best performance this is also to avoid bursting a tyre when hitting stones and rocks but to also avoid bending or damaging a rim beyond future use in case you do burst a tyre. You might be right about something much heavier like a trophy truck or dakar truck though, i never had much interest in racing 4x4's offroad


Sigh this is a game. I use what works in the game. You asked for advice in the game. I have taken the car and set a top 5 time without the car oversteering on me.

I use what tyre pressure works in the game. This is not real life and does not accurately reflect every single aspect of real world physics.

I use what other settings work in the game.

Even if you choose to ignore the settings for a top 5 time at least accept that you have a front to rear balance issue and the tyre pressures should be close to equalised front to rear.

If you want that to be 26 so be it but put the same on both the front and back and if you feel it needs a pressure tweak then tweak by single increments (0.5psi) not by 3psi.
I blame the ants.
Rank: Driver's License
#20 Posted : Friday, December 19, 2014 2:05:57 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SatNiteEduardo Go to Quoted Post
Ok just did my own build and tune on the Focus RS 2009 and set the #5 time on West Hill Cross Country Circuit.

I am not happy with the time but if you look at the vehicles around me I think its clear that this track and this car may not suit each other. I just plucked a track I had not run a good time on yet.

My tyre pressures are 29.0/29.5. I set my time on lap 2 and have no idea what the warm pressures were but I have tested on dirt before and usually end up close to the default 30 at both ends.

Camber I won't give the exact figures but rear camber had more negative camber than front by 0.2.

Toe...well I don't use toe usually but here I am using 0.1/-0.1.

Caster is a secret lol but if you want stability or slower turning then increase it. I suggest that is a bad idea though.

ARBs. um not telling lol but I like what Speedless said - flip them and tweak from there. Yes it will make the car turn easier. I still think you are causing the oversteer yourself due to the car not turning easily. Not only is there a concept like throttle control but there is also steering control. My cars turn easily so I input less steering.

Springs - bring them closer together. Rear can be slightly lower than front but not much.

Learn damping. This is a big issue because you are using default FWD damping on an AWD vehicle. Reduce the gap front to rear. My rebound only differs around 0.1 to 0.2 front to back and same with bump. If nothing else pick the front value for rebound and make the rear the same and for bump pick the rear bump and make the front the same.

Diff - hmm. not sure how much to say here. your accel figures are low, particularly at the rear and get rid of the decel. you have the car hard to turn off gas and I suspect therefore you are trying too hard to get it to turn on gas and therefore inducing oversteer again.

Now I used aero. High front / low rear. I want my awd vehicles to turn.

Now build - get rid of the flywheel. I personally have a very different engine build and no roll cage and a few other differences but get rid of the flywheel. I believe that will help slightly with your issue.

If you choose to disagree with this just understand you are disagreeing with a current top 5 build and tune.

If you want me to I will share it on the sharefront so you can try it but I suspect you will have the same complaints about it to be honest. Yes it does have a natural oversteer but I roll with it as I can use it to make turning easier.

EDIT: going to run it on the other Cross Country Circuits to see if it runs better somewhere else.


I apreciate that your trying to help, my steering control isn't that great because the xbox one thumbsticks on the controllers have little to no tension compared to the 360's and I've spent many hours on previous Forza's driving fwd cars with more power than they can really handle to work on my throttle control which i feel like is really good. I was planning on getting a steering wheel and cockpit setup but its a little pricey and even more so for me since i live in Australia which is quite upsetting because playing with the controller is quite boring.

Even if i were to disagree with anything on this setup I've really only got half of it to disagree on :') but so far i only dislike the aero and tyre pressures
Rank: Racing Legend
#21 Posted : Friday, December 19, 2014 2:35:22 AM(UTC)
I am in Australia running a controller as well.

In short focus on the areas where the advice you are receiving is reduce the front to rear gaps.

The area that is way off in your tune, in my opinion, is camber. Try -2.5/-2.5. I am using something else but just try that for starters.

For tyre pressure try something like 27/27 or 26/26 not something with a big gap.

Make these changes and maybe caster of 6 or 7. I do not use that but it may help with your issue. Maybe try those without changing anything else for now and see if that helps.
I blame the ants.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#22 Posted : Friday, December 19, 2014 8:20:12 AM(UTC)
I actually drove your tune as is, and it gets on just fine. Like SNE I took it to West Valley XC and ran a 1:22.5, which would place it at #10. I would ditch the clutch and flywheel for sure and gain a couple of HP. Also the "storm island" trans is a joke. It's just a race trans with a lower default final drive, yet cost 2 more PI. Stupid.
Rank: Driver's License
#23 Posted : Saturday, December 20, 2014 4:44:18 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: gtFOOTw Go to Quoted Post
Also the "storm island" trans is a joke. It's just a race trans with a lower default final drive, yet cost 2 more PI. Stupid.


The rally transmission is more responsive than the race transmission by 0.04seconds and 4 or 5lbs heavier. 0.04seconds might not seem like much but it makes all the difference
Rank: Racing Legend
#24 Posted : Saturday, December 20, 2014 5:04:03 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: such noob wow Go to Quoted Post


The rally transmission is more responsive than the race transmission by 0.04seconds and 4 or 5lbs heavier. 0.04seconds might not seem like much but it makes all the difference


umm sorry but it makes no difference if you use manual with clutch and costs a lot of PI.

I suggest always using one of the unadjustable 5 speed transmissions if you are using the natural drivetrain of a car.

If you have done a swap then I would go with whichever transmission results in the lowest PI because you get an adjustable final drive anyway.
I blame the ants.
Rank: Driver's License
#25 Posted : Saturday, December 20, 2014 5:17:03 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SatNiteEduardo Go to Quoted Post
ARBs. um not telling lol but I like what Speedless said - flip them and tweak from there. Yes it will make the car turn easier. I still think you are causing the oversteer yourself due to the car not turning easily. Not only is there a concept like throttle control but there is also steering control. My cars turn easily so I input less steering.

Learn damping. This is a big issue because you are using default FWD damping on an AWD vehicle. Reduce the gap front to rear. My rebound only differs around 0.1 to 0.2 front to back and same with bump. Rally damping is something that I still need to test more but start with something like 7.0/7.0 and 2.0/2.0.


I've focused on these 2 things and it still isn't really making a difference infact speedless' and your advice for the anti-roll bars made the car worse like it was on default tuning settings and i feel like a fool for listening to it since i know that decreasing front anti-roll bar stiffness and increasing the rear stiffness increases oversteer. I'm trying to make the rear tyres stick to the road, not simulate what its like to have someone hooked to the rear bumper and drive off in the opposite direction
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