Rank: Driver's License
#1 Posted : Tuesday, December 16, 2014 12:48:09 PM(UTC)
Hi guys, I was wondering If anyone was patient enough to help me out with basic tuning. I just need some general words of wisdom to help get me pointed in the right direction. I need help tuning grip/horsepower/tuning for drifting/drags/crusing...basically EVERYTHING lol. I know not everyone's driving style is the same, but there's gotta be a general consensus on basic things(I'm assuming?). I tried a test by tuning a few different cars for different needs, but I wouldn't mind a few words from some more 'seasoned' tuners.

Can anyone help?!?!
Rank: Racing Permit
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#2 Posted : Wednesday, December 17, 2014 9:31:01 AM(UTC)
The first lesson is - Keep an open Mind

Look through this forum and the similar forum for Forza 5. If some of the recommendations appear to counter dict each other, live with it. Copy equations, Links and basic relationships. Be able to reference this information over and over again as your understanding improves and you are looking for ideas to improve a tune.

Lesson 2 - Power and Drive Type

These two factors make the concept of a two minute tune impossible. Some information applies to all cars, and some does not. A rear drive car balances differently than a Front drive car. But remember that the quick tuning methods are only intended to get you to a different starting point than the factory defaults. Also, tuning for Road, Drag or Drift may have the same starting point, but the Build and tweaks will be different.

Lesson 3 - There are no short cuts

Learning how making a change to any one setting will change how a car behaves takes a lot of time, but that is the only way you can understand what you learned from lesson 1 and 2.

Lesson 4 - Rivals

Use the Rivals to develop your tunes and not the online races. As you learn, your standings will improve. If you set up other tuners as friends/rivals, you will have a benchmark of how well your tuning skills are developing compared to others who are developing their skills.


I hope that this information is pointing you, and anyone else who is looking to learn how to tune, in the right direction and that the words are few enough. Also, I have yet to fully reach the point of considering myself a Seasoned Tuner as I find my tunes continue to get better.
Rank: Driver's License
#3 Posted : Wednesday, December 17, 2014 12:41:39 PM(UTC)
Thanks Bro
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#4 Posted : Wednesday, December 17, 2014 1:55:00 PM(UTC)
I have to agree with UnhipPompano697. It is really good advice.

I have a couple of corollaries to the lessons

Lesson 1A - Don't be afraid to try something that seems stupid.

This is related to keeping an open mind. Sometimes you think something just can't work. What is the harm in trying it? You might surprise yourself. I know I have.

Lesson 3A - Be patient and be willing to ask questions.

This is related to there are no shortcuts. Sometimes you will feel you are getting nowhere. Keep at it. Post what you are doing. Somebody may point out why you're not seeing improvement. Listen to them. My experience has been they are usually right.

Rank: Racing Legend
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#5 Posted : Wednesday, December 17, 2014 2:39:12 PM(UTC)
Focus on the build. I had written the following as a thread but was not sure whether to post or not given that I am sure people will disagree. I will post it unedited so understand that originally it was going to be a thread in its own right.

..

This thread is my advice to those who would like to try it. Some will disagree which is cool – if you know better then I look forward to our leaderboard battles ;)

This is FH2 focussed and a small number of these I may do differently in a Forza Motorsport title due to the way the physics model differs between games but most of it is the same.

Also some of my early FH2 builds might break these rules but if I rebuilt today I would apply these.

Never use the following parts (note that I rarely have an absolutely maxed out car, if I did I might have to use some of these) - also I rarely downgrade cars but some of these parts are useful for that:

Flywheel
Clutch (may be beneficial for auto or straight manual users but I use manual with clutch)
Oil and Cooling
Intercooler
Roll cage (might help with overpowered old cars but I don’t tend to build too many of those and in FH2 I find the improvement is not often enough to warrant the added weight).

Must test and be proven on leaderboards before using:

Cams (not often beneficial but some of my quickest builds do use cams). You will most often get quicker laptimes within a PI limit when using other engine parts. I have previously been an absolute no cams builder but have tried them in FH2 with occasionally good results (my A class Liberty uses cams as does one of my A class Ford Escort 92s with a non adjustable gearbox and cams it had better top speed at Abbey Cross Country which resulted in a quicker overall laptime).

Only use as PI filler:

Brake upgrades
Driveline

Overall build approach:

Upgrade springs, ARBs, maybe aero, do any swaps and then diff on all builds.

Maybe tyres and rims and weight reduction depending what PI I am aiming for. With rims I usually do upgrade to close to max rim size.

Consider drivetrain swap depending on what the car will be used for.

Motor – in FH2 I find turbos quite good. I used to be a religious supercharger user but in FH2 I use turbos quite a lot.

After that swap my focus is (in order of preference):

Exhaust
Air Filter
Pistons
Valves
Manifold
Displacement
Any other parts I have forgotten that do not add weight.
Cams maybe for testing but not a first priority.

I think that about sums up my build approach. The main thing I intended focussing on are the parts I never use as I have seen a few builds using them. In general they are wasted PI.

I have not mentioned gearboxes as I rarely upgrade them unless they drop PI or the original gearbox is completely useless.

Edited by user Sunday, December 28, 2014 6:51:13 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I blame the ants.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#6 Posted : Wednesday, December 17, 2014 4:15:29 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SatNiteEduardo Go to Quoted Post


Never use (note that I rarely have an absolutely maxed out car, if I did I might have to use some of these) - also I rarely downgrade cars but some of these parts are useful for that:

Flywheel
Clutch (may be beneficial for auto or straight manual users but I use manual with clutch)
Oil and Cooling
Intercooler
Roll cage (might help with overpowered old cars but I don’t tend to build too many of those and in FH2 I find the improvement is not often enough to warrant the added weight).

Must test and be proven on leaderboards before using:

Cams (not often beneficial but some of my quickest builds do use cams). You will most often get quicker laptimes within a PI limit when using other engine parts. I have previously been an absolute no cams builder but have tried them in FH2 with occasionally good results (my A class Liberty uses cams as does one of my A class Ford Escort 92s with a non adjustable gearbox and cams it had better top speed at Abbey Cross Country which resulted in a quicker overall laptime).

Only use as PI filler:

Brake upgrades
Driveline

Overall build approach:

Upgrade springs, ARBs, maybe aero, do any swaps and then diff on all builds.

Maybe tyres and rims and weight reduction depending what PI I am aiming for. With rims I usually do upgrade to close to max rim size.

Consider drivetrain swap depending on what the car will be used for.

Motor – in FH2 I find turbos quite good. I used to be a religious supercharger user but in FH2 I use turbos quite a lot.

After that swap my focus is (in order of preference):

Exhaust
Air Filter
Pistons
Valves
Manifold
Displacement
Any other parts I have forgotten that do not add weight.
Cams maybe for testing but not a first priority.

I think that about sums up my build approach. The main thing I intended focussing on are the parts I never use as I have seen a few builds using them. In general they are wasted PI.

I have not mentioned gearboxes as I rarely upgrade them unless they drop PI or the original gearbox is completely useless.


This is good stuff. I've seen you at the top of leaderboards, so it's interesting to know what you do different than me. I've become addicted to building cars, sometimes I hit, sometimes I miss, but I guess if I've learned anything it's not to try and force a build. Some cars just won't do what you want them to do. So I don't waste time trying to force a car beyond what I like to think of its organic progression. That means I rarely swap engines or add turbos or superchargers. Generally, if I have to upgrade tire compound to hold the road, then I've gone too far. That said, I usually try to buy the most expensive PI upgrades for a particular car because I think those are the ones that make the most difference. For example, one of the classic Stingrays starts with a bunch of HP and torque stock. Upgrading engine parts adds tons more HP at really low PI cost. I thought that was great. Cheap HP hooray! But it made no difference in my lap times, so after many ineffective tuning experiments I uninstalled all the cheap HP, bought what must be the most expensive racing tires in the game, and earned a top 50 lap time the first try around Nice. So moral of the story, if it costs so much PI it hurts, it's probably a good thing.

About camshafts, I like them because they increase red line and cars like the Buick GNX desperately need a higher red line. That's usually where we find all the good torque. I also like gear boxes because I like messing around with the ratios to get a good launch. Good launch can be very helpful online to avoid the first corner pileup. Generally agree with all the other engine upgrades you mentioned, especially if they reduce weight. Exhaust sometimes reduces weight 100 pounds.

Like others have said, when tuning I do it with all assists off. When I have a setup I like, I go back and add aero and usually end up with something that grips like it's on rails.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#7 Posted : Wednesday, December 17, 2014 6:08:28 PM(UTC)
Building and tuning is really about working to a cars strengths to bring out the best in it. Other than that, you need to pick the right car for the job. Add heaps of time, a decent level of driving skill, and messing around (endlessly) trying things and you're done. There's no recipe that will get you there without effort.
Rank: X-Class Racing License
#8 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 7:55:46 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Potbox Go to Quoted Post

About camshafts, I like them because they increase red line and cars like the Buick GNX desperately need a higher red line. That's usually where we find all the good torque. I also like gear boxes because I like messing around with the ratios to get a good launch. Good launch can be very helpful online to avoid the first corner pileup. Generally agree with all the other engine upgrades you mentioned, especially if they reduce weight. Exhaust sometimes reduces weight 100 pounds.


I'd be careful about the generalized camshaft statement as it is not always true. The torque curve really depends on the engine and you actually tend to find the good torque in the middle of the RPM range. The horsepower is almost always highest at the far right of the graph, but there are cars and motors - such as the 1.6 Rally Turbo or Tesla Model S - where the torque kicks in at 1200 or even 0 RPMS respectively. Then again, both of those examples don't have a cam upgrade....

Sometimes the cams are necessary as Eduardo said, but often times I also find myself leaving them out. I used to use them a lot because I liked having the extra RPM but as I've gotten more competitive they don't help as much. They do not reduce weight, they give a mild torque bump, they only afford a slightly modest horsepower boost, they increase your redline considerably and they cost you an easy 4 or 5 other engine upgrades worth of PI. You can add exhaust, air filter, valves, and pistons or a camshaft sometimes. In FH2 they're like the engine equivalent of race tires - HUGE PI penalty, not a lot of gain in 8/10 situations.

Eduardo mention a few cars where he did use the Camshafts. I have a couple as well - typically only when going for a maxed build but I tend to do those only for request or public use - I build them and do not use them myself after they are done. The Subaru LEgacy RS in certain conditions benefits from a cam upgrade and this is reflected in lap times. Other times I use them are on cars that already have huge torque or power so I may not be adding in as many engine upgrades and need to focus the attention on handling - one car I used them on is my Hummer H1 Alpha build.

Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#9 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 3:27:57 PM(UTC)
I think the camshafts are the hardest part to figure out in the game. When it is first installed the car doesn't seem to improve much given the PI cost. The problem is the tuning needs to be set up for it and the changes are usually large.

The biggest adjustment is usually the transmission, so you will need an adjustable transmission. With the change in RPM range, the timing of the shifts change. The gear ratios have to be changed so the car shifts at the correct locations on the course. Most of the adjustment can be done by changing the final drive setting, so you may not need the fully adjustable transmission. Another big adjustment is the differential. The power band on the car has changed. You need to adjust when the differential locks and unlocks because of this. The changes in these setting requires looking at the other settings. It is almost like starting the tune all over. This has been my experience with camshafts.

I admit I rarely add camshafts. I have a scoring system for the parts. It based on the improvement in lap/course time and the PI cost. I want to add any part that has a score of 5 or better. Camshafts in general are around 4 but sometimes they have the highest score.

Rank: Racing Legend
#10 Posted : Thursday, December 18, 2014 3:44:09 PM(UTC)
I just want to clarify a few things about cams.

I don't want to give people the impression that I am saying they are useful all of a sudden.

90% of my builds will still not have cams.

In isolation cams improve performance. However when building within a pi limit I find I almost always get better laptimes using parts other than cams.

I have used cams in FH2 in conjunction with unadjustable transmissions to achieve better top speed in order to gain a tenth or 2 in a battle on the leaderboards. I mention above that my Liberty and Escort Cossie are examples but only on certain tracks. I have no cam builds that are quicker on other tracks, usually tracks that rely more on acceleration and do not have long high speed sections.

EDIT: also I know other people will come up with other builds and be quicker than my builds or my times.

The main point I want to make is a lot of people are wasting pi and or building heavy cars unnecessarily. I see race brakes and roll cages on D class cars - neither are likely to be beneficial.

Roll cages can sometimes drop pi and therefore alllow more hp but in the lower classes they just make the cars sluggish.

So only add the parts that are reaaly going to benefit you.

Edited by user Thursday, December 18, 2014 3:47:50 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I blame the ants.
Rank: Driver's License
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#11 Posted : Friday, December 19, 2014 1:51:03 PM(UTC)
Thanks everyone!
Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#12 Posted : Sunday, December 21, 2014 8:25:02 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Mr Tabb Go to Quoted Post
Thanks everyone!


Mr Tabb, I am sure I say this for everyone. You're welcome. We were all idiots at one time.
Rank: Racing Permit
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#13 Posted : Monday, December 22, 2014 8:07:28 AM(UTC)
Everything said here has been very wise. There is no one answer for every car, or for every track. That would be way too easy and T10 wants us to work for it, because everything worth having is worth some work right. Now with that said, ill break off my piece of mind. When in a car I start off looking at what the conversions do, I don't do them yet, just see what they do to the car. Then I move on to tires, and see what kind of grip the car gets with the different tire options; if the car lands half way into a class with the grip I would like then I think that's perfect, leaving about 50+ish PI for power. Like most muscle cars with race tires end up half way into A class. Then second is the chassis upgrades, always adding springs, swaybars, and brakes, because I like tuning them to the feel I want; which is all personal preference, but those things don't eat up a lot of PI. Using a muscle car for example I would then look at the weight kits available and probable go with race weight because those cars are tanks. Then i would put forza wings on it, personally again the forza spoilers give the car a quicker and more consistent feel to the car for me. Even a car with a .1 or .2 less in grip but with forza spoilers added, i think turns better, and you can tune these parts to give you more grip. I would then fill the rest of the PI with engine upgrades, I do exhaust often because the car sounds awesome! I don't often do roll cages, because i look at the lateral G's in the bench mark, with all 3 roll cage options, if it helps the lateral G's in both 60 and 120 i will do it, but not if it is just for one of them, and commonly it is non of them. The roll cages compromise the cars weight dramatically, sometimes hurting the handling, and hindering its acceleration.
Now as far a car that is light from the get go, i still look at tires first, conversions to see if something looks awesome, do my usual brakes, springs and sways for tuning preferences; i generally will not take any weight out of it and go for power!!! But again i will most likely have full forza spoilers.
Now keeping in mind that everything is different for everyone, and every car, and every track. There are some common ground that I will share, but i don't want you to feel limiting in thinking that my builds or ideas are best or fastest based off my lap times. The biggest factor about this game we are not talking about is reading the tracks and turns, there so many different ways to run these tracks and different possible lines, with all the cuts and cool different ways the check points are set up, that there is always another option and "always a bigger fish" Qui Gon Gin.
What i like to shoot for in this game is grip. I believe that handling is OP in this game, unlike the first were half the tracks were drag races, these tracks are mostly momentum based tracks, and public lobbies are always easier to win in a car with lots of grip over a car with lots of power. Also i think AWD is OP in H2, for most cars if there a little loose or an AWD conversion doesn't eat up a lot of weight, i will do an AWD transmission swap to the car. I normally leave stock trannys in cars unless i do an AWD swap then a race tranny and possibly clutch use up a small amount of PI, so in that case it is very beneficial. I then tune the top speed of the transmission to hit the same top speed as the track im running it on. No need to set an A class trans to do 200 because you wont see yourself often out of the 150 range ish. Also there has been a lot of talk about cams, i think cams are very very good in this game. They have been pretty week in past forza's but we all know things get tweaked in every version. I think cams often give you great HP for PI, what i do is build the engine with boost, save it, build it with cams, save it, build it with torque, save it and compare to see what has the most power and or accel. After Forza 5 and the torque battles there i feel like T10 has nerft torque a bit in comparison, making power even better. Also you drive cars at faster speeds in H2 then in Motorsport 5.
In S1 class i shoot for something around a 8.0 handle and as close to a 9.0 accel as i can, the rest of the stats are just there to confuse you, speed is accel after 100mph
in a class i look for 7.0 hande from Saint Martin cars, 7.7+ in Neice and for Storm Island
B class something under 7 handle with mid 7s on accel
c class something above or close to 6 with a high to mid 6 accel.

The best advise and thing you can do for yourself, is run a rival time, pick a track you like and you wont get board of or frustrated at. Build a few cars a few different ways, run one, load another build, run it against your own rival time, rense and repeat. For further questions about tuning and building just Private Message me or hit me up XBLive, im always down to help a fellow racer!!!

Edited by user Monday, December 22, 2014 10:27:22 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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