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Rank: S-Class Racing License
#126 Posted : Tuesday, December 30, 2014 4:30:26 AM(UTC)
Well, I looked it all over and decided to give it a try.

Took the Caterham and bumped it up to the top of the class it's in and ran it around Road America a few times and started addressing the tail happiness that it excels at ( no aero). Adjusted the gearing, tinkered with the rear sway, adjusted rear toe a touch, put that back and adjusted the rear camber instead, tire pressure a bit, less motor upgrades, MORE TIRE (duh moment).

While it's not a grocery getter now, it is indeed manageable and ALMOST civil!
One can only wonder what I'll be able to do with something reasonable!
Awesome write up Worm!

Edited by user Tuesday, December 30, 2014 4:33:55 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified


2Old4Forza
Rank: Driver's Permit
#127 Posted : Thursday, February 19, 2015 9:41:46 PM(UTC)
Can somebody help me with the Toyota GT86? I wanna make it a good all arounder, but the tail ends up coming out when I let off the throttle? Also speed needs to be addressed here - should I should with manual upgrades, or just engine swap it, or both? I'm kinda new to this so any help would be appreciated.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
User is suspended until 11/28/2042 2:06:57 PM(UTC)
#128 Posted : Friday, February 20, 2015 12:19:53 PM(UTC)
^^^^^^^^^^^ Class? Track?


Just stop. Just sayin.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#129 Posted : Sunday, February 22, 2015 4:23:44 AM(UTC)
Worm is dead on with his post . I've been a huge racing nut since I was a little kid . I soon found out that the guy who knew the science of racing usually did the best . I apply all my knowledge to my tunes in the game . It's still not quite worked out in the game but for the most part it pretty accurate . I suggest that anyone who wants to get into tuning read worms post !
Rank: Driver's Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#130 Posted : Monday, February 23, 2015 9:02:08 AM(UTC)
Can someone please help me tune a 1969 chevy camaro ss to do
0-60 in 5.3 seconds
weigh as close to 3,300 pounds as possible
Has any where from 580 to 600 horsepower
and can do a 13.60 in a quarter mile I am not to worried about the quarter mile
I am trying to replicate the very rare camaro ZL-1 there were only 69 built it hade the L88 Chevy said it made 430hp but it is not true it was said for insurance purposes sadly it is not in the game if it helps I am playing Forza Horizon 2

I am new to trying to tune cars I always just have put the part's in and never thought about tuning so I really would appreciate if you guys can help me and hopefully teach me how to do it.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#131 Posted : Monday, February 23, 2015 9:03:37 AM(UTC)
Sorry I just realized that this is Forza 5 forum.
Rank: On the Podium
#132 Posted : Monday, February 23, 2015 11:33:45 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DidgeridooPlayr Go to Quoted Post
Can someone please help me tune a 1969 chevy camaro ss to do
0-60 in 5.3 seconds
weigh as close to 3,300 pounds as possible
Has any where from 580 to 600 horsepower
and can do a 13.60 in a quarter mile I am not to worried about the quarter mile
I am trying to replicate the very rare camaro ZL-1 there were only 69 built it hade the L88 Chevy said it made 430hp but it is not true it was said for insurance purposes sadly it is not in the game if it helps I am playing Forza Horizon 2

I am new to trying to tune cars I always just have put the part's in and never thought about tuning so I really would appreciate if you guys can help me and hopefully teach me how to do it.


It is fine if you asked in the wrong section. You will have to go to "The Strip" for drag racing issues. Those guys can help you out quite a bit.

Edited by user Monday, February 23, 2015 11:35:01 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
#133 Posted : Monday, February 23, 2015 11:53:51 AM(UTC)
Thanks
Rank: R-Class Racing License
User is suspended until 11/28/2042 2:06:57 PM(UTC)
#134 Posted : Monday, February 23, 2015 11:57:55 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DidgeridooPlayr Go to Quoted Post
Thanks


Try this:

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/turn10_postsm262111_How-To-Tune-Drag-Cars-Like-A-Pro.aspx#post_262111



Just stop. Just sayin.
Rank: On the Podium
#135 Posted : Monday, February 23, 2015 12:08:37 PM(UTC)
or just do that....lol


Thanks Loco
Rank: Racing Permit
#136 Posted : Sunday, March 1, 2015 4:18:08 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: phoxxy10 Go to Quoted Post
Is this guide for forza 5 in specific terms or is this just the same reprinted general guide line for supposed forza physics? Thank you.


Sorry if someone already answered this, but I feel it's still relevant and applicable to ANY and ALL driving.

And I do mean ANY and ALL

To start with, Im not the fastest in forza and my tuning in the game is "aalright." I do have more hours than I care to admit though in Forza and Gran Turismo before that.

But what really matters is this:
I used to have a pro driving license. I was NASA and SCCA checked out. I've done more real hot laps, track days, autocross, HDPE, and even a few real races.

I'm proud to say I've actually driven Laguna SECA at 1:20ish in a car my uncle and I built.

The advice the OP gives here is exactly what is preached when it comes to tuning a car to go fast. Everyone's driving line is unique in their own subtle ways. Sure the basic line and concept much like the suggested line in Forza is simple. But thats beginner's driving 101 taught at schools like Bob Bondurant's or O'Neil's rally.

But to then PUSH the car to its limits and our own requires knowledge of what we as a driver and the car can and can't do. It's funny, but I always think of "Days of Thunder" when talking about this - that moment Harry and Cole have their heart to heart and 50 vs 50.

For example, I'm what some call a "kamikaze driver." I go in hot, turn early, and accelerate HARD. And that's in real life as much as in this game. So my tuning vs my buddy who likes 911s and is very calculating have incredibly different tunings for the same cars. Or more often than not we drive different cars. Me? Aston Martin of some kind or Vette, Daytona, Cobra, Viper, Miata, Jag, or Z.
My buddy? RUF, Ferrari, McLaren, or Alfa. Only thing we agree on is rally - Soobies and Lancias. We actually laughed for a while how my only favorite mud engine cars are the Cayman, 037 and Stratos. He tries to get me to "cconvert" all the time.

Simple reality to me is this: Forza is the best compromise in a game. The "real simulation" ones annoy me on pc and on xbox especially. I'd rather just drive my minivan lol.

Here its a simple button push of "y" or "a" to fix a mistake. .. and the game with console cost me less than one event's admission... let alone fuel, tires and whatever breaks.

But take it from me - this advice = priceless gold and I wish I had something like it 18 years ago.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#137 Posted : Monday, March 30, 2015 4:16:47 PM(UTC)
Add me
Rank: Driver's Permit
#138 Posted : Sunday, May 3, 2015 1:48:35 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: BIG W0RM 80 Go to Quoted Post
If you have anything to add to it let me know and I'll be glad to do so.

Thanks



First Rule: Fix the end of the car that has the problem. If it's the rear sliding around don't go adjusting the front. Start with adjusting the back end to stabilize it first. You can then go up or down in unison to stiffen or soften the car.



Tires and Temperature

Getting the correct temperature/pressure combination is like fitting together a big puzzle. Stiffer spring = more temperature and stiffer roll bars = higher temperature and on and on. It all fits together and the tires are the only thing we have direct control of. It's often the most overlooked part of tuning yet it is the most important.

I'll use the recommendations that I have gathered from Pirelli for temperature as some manufacturers differ +/- 10° F. The optimal grip for a tire will differ by what compound you put onto the vehicle. The softer the tire the lower the temperature needed for optimal grip.

PSI needs to be 32-35 degrees when hot. I generally settle with 33.

Temperature range can be from 180° to 210° F. A softer tire will lose grip more rapidly once it gets past 210° than a harder compound.

How does tire temperature relate to pressures?

Higher pressure = Lower temperature
Lower pressure = Higher temperature


This works in small amounts. On FWD cars in the game you can have a really high PSI in the rear and it will slide all over the place.

Adjustments Decrease Understeer Decrease Oversteer
Front Tire Pressure Higher Lower
Rear Tire Pressure Lower Higher


Some of the below quotes do not apply to FM5 with the high camber ratings.

Quote:
Uniform rules no matter what

Give the tires 3 laps to warm up before looking at telemetry.

You should never have more than 20° between the inner portion of the tire and the outer with the inside always being hotter.

You should never have more than 25° between the front and rear of the car

Alignment:

Quote:
Keep in mind you want no more than 20° difference between the inside and outside of the tire with the inner 1/3 always being hotter (10°-15° are good numbers). Make sure you look when actual load is on the tires going through a corner and the tires have had proper time to heat up (3 laps minimum). Sometimes on a track with turns mainly loading one side of the car the tires will heat up uneven. This is normal.


Camber
You always want negative camber

Negative = More inside
Positive = More outside

There is a sweet spot in this setting that usually doesn't change unless you move the Caster around too much once everything is set. You also always want more camber in the front than the rear. Rear camber isn't as necessary as those tires don't turn and I want them with a touch of negative camber when throttle is applied on exit.

Toe
Front toe favors a positive number (more responsive and better turn in) between .1° and .5°. Anything above .3° will cause excessive drag in the straights and gets really bad above 160mph.
Rear toe favors a negative number and becomes more responsive through turns at 1°. However anything over 2° and the back end loses a lot of stability in acceleration and braking. On bumpy tracks any amount of rear toe will cause the car to lose stability and you will have to make corrections even in a straight line costing you time.

EDIT: To clarify you shouldn't use more than .3 degrees in either direction unless the circumstance is extreme.

Caster
Allows the tires to roll with the chassis giving a larger contact patch through a turn. It also helps to balance the temperature of the tires on tracks with predominant left/right turns.

A larger number here will also help absorb bumps on the track while decreasing stability as too much caster causes the tires to wander a bit.

I personally like a really high Caster (5.5-7.0) in the lower classes but on tracks with longer sweeping turns less caster is better.. Most cars aren't sensitive to caster changes.

Adjustments Decrease Understeer Decrease Oversteer
Front Wheel Camber More Negative More Positive
Rear Wheel Camber More Positive More Negative
Front Wheel Caster More Positive More Negative

Anti Roll Bars

Anti roll bars control how much side to side roll a car has. In theory you would want to minimize body roll as much as possible. This is especially true in the higher classes but on occasion in FM3 some body roll helped things. I guess we will see in FM4. The end of this one is long winded but helps to understand it all.

Rear ARB soften = decrease oversteer or increase understeer
Rear ARB stiffen = decrease understeer or increase oversteer


Understanding what the ARB's do

"Limiting the lean of the body is good because it means that when you take a quick set into a turn, that the body isn't still moving sideways after the tires are at their limits. Otherwise you turn in quickly, the tires grip, then the body finally finishes leaning, when it stops, the tires lose grip."

"It limits camber changes. The camber directly impacts the angle at which the tire cross section meets the road and thus controls lateral grip. As the suspension compresses the camber angle generally changes relative to the chassis. With a normal McPherson strut that hasn't been lowered, the camber goes from positive to more negative as the lower A arm swings out straight, and then back to positive as it swings up. That swing up into positive camber is BAD. At that point the chassis is already leaned over so the tire may be starting to roll onto its sidewall. Changing the camber even more positive is just nasty. A big sway bar will prevent the body roll in the first place, and prevent the suspension compression on the outside which causes the positive camber change relative to the chassis."

"Here's where it gets really tricky: If decreasing the size of the rear bar doesn't help enough, the next thing you do is increase the size of the front bar. When the outside front compresses in a corner, it causes the inside front to compress and may actually lift that tire completely off the ground. The car is now sitting on 3 tires and guess where the weight that was on the inside front goes? Outside front? Some of it. The rest goes to the inside rear where we need more grip. The total weight of the car hasn't changed. It's just been redistributed, and a sway bar at one end, actually transferred weight to the other end of the car. Increasing the front bar then translates into more motive grip at the rear, and thus more acceleration"

Springs & Ride Height

From speaking with Dan the spring tuning and adjustments have changed drastically from FM3 to FM4. Every car is now different based upon what it is in reality as opposed to just one generic suspension being stuck under every vehicle like Forza titles in the past. (his direct words were not all suspensions are the same and the same springs weights don't do the same thing on every single car)

Any change in the spring rate will change the ride height due to the rate of spring deflection. They also change the compression(bump) and deflection(rebound) ratings of the shocks.

I like using my springs to control the suspension travel and balance the weight of the vehicle. Aero also affects the weight on the car and needs to be figured in. Some tracks require a softer spring while others require stiffer. I have went away from using the below formula but will leave it here as a baseline since some like it. I just reduce the stock spring setting by about a 1/4 on front and rear for my base tune.



Ride Height
Keep this as low as possible without the car bottoming out



Damping (shocks)

The extension when the tire is unloaded (force back out) = REBOUND
The compression of a shock (making it smaller) = BUMP

Braking
Under braking the front axle will compress while the rear will rebound. As the weight shifts the front axle will have a higher velocity than the rear which is good because the front should settle before the rear. If the front does settle too quickly the tires in the front will lock a little premature and the same for the rear. Brake bias only masks the problem and moves it to a different portion of the track.

Acceleration
Under acceleration the rear axle will compress while the front will rebound (think of a see-saw). On a RWD for example if the rear squats before the torque reaches peak it reduces the time the driver has to feather the throttle as the tires begin to break loose. Try to balance the compression against the required grip of the torque. FRONT REBOUND SHOULD BE FASTER THAN REAR COMPRESSION.

FWD is different in a sense. For acceleration increasing the front rebound will give more grip initially while increasing rear rebound increases a sustained level of grip.





Downforce and Braking

Downforce
More at rear = more understeer and a stable back end
More at front = more oversteer and increased turn in.

More downforce = less speed in straights, more speed through cornering.

Don't forget that any downforce adjustment = a spring adjustment to compensate for the added weight. Especially at higher speeds.

Braking

Braking pressure is a preference of the driver in my experience.
Your brake bias controls understeer and oversteer while braking.

More front bias = more understeer and can bind the front tires up to where you can't trail brake if you prefer to.
More rear bias = more oversteer and can cause the rear tires to lock up faster than the front which is really bad. Will cause the car to spin. This can also be a preference as some like to go early in fast out and some find it easier to brake later and trail brake through the corner. Those two can create a full scale argument.

Easier explanation on braking can be found HERE courtesy of gtFOOTw. Have a look. http://forums.forzamotorsport.n...PLAINED.aspx#post_126446



Differential Settings

Differential settings increase the amount of lock your inside wheel has while turning. At 100% both the tires turn at the same speed which on a rear differential creates oversteer (on FWD it eliminates torque steer). A higher differential will allow you to use the throttle to help turn around a corner but can cause mid-exit oversteer.

On deceleration when you lift off of the throttle one tire locks faster than the other. This can cause the back end to want to kick out over the locked tire in extreme settings (under 15%). A lower setting does help things and the further apart the accel and decel are on the same differential the more unstable the car seems to get in my experience.

There isn't a ton I can find on differential settings so sorry for being so brief here and it is pretty simple. A higher number creates oversteer and a lower number prevents it.


Rank: Driver's Permit
#139 Posted : Sunday, May 3, 2015 1:54:46 AM(UTC)
[Mod Edit - Abbreviated profanity, profanity and profanity that is disguised but still alludes to the words are not permitted - D]

Edited by user Monday, May 4, 2015 2:02:02 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
#140 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2015 12:42:28 PM(UTC)
Great stiff. a bit overwhelming for an old guy that has to think differently but certainly worth the effort...

Thank you,

DB
Rank: Driver's Permit
#141 Posted : Thursday, September 24, 2015 7:08:30 PM(UTC)
I've always tuned all of my own cars, but have never searched for any sort of guide before and all my tuning has been through my own trial and error. With the release of FM6 I decided to look into it to improve my tuning ability and understand what the changes I'm making actually effect, and how to correct certain problems. After reading this, and applying it, it's unbelievable how helpful this is!! My cars are far faster, my tuning time is drastically reduced, and the fun has multiplied! Thank you so much for posting this! 5* post man! :D
Rank: Driver's License
#142 Posted : Sunday, October 11, 2015 5:16:43 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: BEACHEDAS25 Go to Quoted Post
Has anyone done a beginner guide to tuning? This guide has blown my fragile little mind haha. I'm sure it makes more sense to those with a bit of tuning experience but for me just trying to figure out a starting point for tuning my first car I'm just totally confused. IchII3D your tips seemed good even though some mistakes. I might start out with some of your recommendations for tuning. I've put off trying to tune a car cause its all just a bit overwhelming.


It certainly can be,maybe try just getting out there and driving the car to get a sense of feel for it.Then try applying one of the base tunes as a starting pt and see what differences you notice. (you will need to install/upgrade springs ,brakes ,diff. etc. before any changes can be made) It might be helpful to look into what each part actually does in order to make the necessary changes, it does no good to know exactly how a car drives if your unable to translate that info into making fixes for it.Then ( possibly w/ the use of the "cause & effect" guide in this thread ) try minor adjustments to one part of the car at a time and or just experiment and see what seems to work for you.It really just comes down to time and experience , you can read a million guides and threads but if your mind doesnt have any thing to relate that knowledge to your no better off. Good luck & keep asking questions :) (Big thank you to everyone that takes the time to post these type guides as theyre very helpful and greatly appreciated)
Rank: Racing Permit
#143 Posted : Tuesday, October 20, 2015 11:25:56 AM(UTC)
I have been using the (newly) released ForzaTune 6.
Thought it was a good thing.
After reading this thread, I am starting to think - maybe not.
I am not a fan of tuning...almost 99% of that dislike is attributable to the fact I haven't a clue where to begin.
It is also very, very time consuming. I like racing...I am not a mechanic.
I have perfected the build aspect...but my tuning leaves a lot to be desired.
My problem is that so many different aspects of the tune can be the root cause of a particular issue...if you don't identify it correctly, you end up make adjustments in one area that further exacerbate the issue...and then you are 'tuning out', or 'tuning in' corrective measures when the culprit was incorrectly identified to begin with.
'Tis a slippery slope...
This phenomenon is compounded by track variance.
*head spinning*

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#144 Posted : Tuesday, October 20, 2015 4:58:31 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: BUCKWILDER Go to Quoted Post
I have been using the (newly) released ForzaTune 6.
Thought it was a good thing.
After reading this thread, I am starting to think - maybe not.
I am not a fan of tuning...almost 99% of that dislike is attributable to the fact I haven't a clue where to begin.
It is also very, very time consuming. I like racing...I am not a mechanic.
I have perfected the build aspect...but my tuning leaves a lot to be desired.
My problem is that so many different aspects of the tune can be the root cause of a particular issue...if you don't identify it correctly, you end up make adjustments in one area that further exacerbate the issue...and then you are 'tuning out', or 'tuning in' corrective measures when the culprit was incorrectly identified to begin with.
'Tis a slippery slope...
This phenomenon is compounded by track variance.
*head spinning*



I posted something very similar about a week or so ago. That sounds so much like me. I usually overthink everything so like you say adjust something to fix that problem but make 2 things worse then trying to fix those two cause another 5 and now I can't remember where my base tune is. The information from the game is all there but it's how I interpret that info that makes it more challenging for me than others, let's say.
On the flip side of that this guide will make me much more precise on my adjustments which in the long run will pay big dividends in speed and handling with my tunes.
I like the PTG tunes as so many of them seem to really fit my driving style. They make it hard to justify my tuning when I would never get it this good anyway no matter how long I tried.
Rank: On the Podium
#145 Posted : Tuesday, October 20, 2015 5:36:09 PM(UTC)
Buck and Dan, it happens to us all. I can't tell you the times I've been messing with this and it should have been that. The easiest way to deal with this is to sadly keep chugging along. If you run out of answers then ask questions. There are a lot of people willing to help.
Rank: Racing Permit
#146 Posted : Tuesday, October 20, 2015 8:33:15 PM(UTC)
I find I have been getting pretty decent base tunes out of the app. I do some tweaking to camber, tire pressure, ARB and diff, so the end product is somewhat different than how it began. I find the tool gets me in a competitive ride from the get go, which I can the adjust to my flavor. Quite frankly, for me it's about the time...I only have so many hours to game in a day (long work day, two young kids, and of course the wife...but I digress...), so I lust for track time, not time holding the wrench.
That said, I have read this entire thread, and a few others in the tuners lounge... so I am making an effort to equip myself with the knowledge to be able to adjust 'on the fly' with some degree of know-how.
I appreciate your replies...and I will be back to pick your collective brains on how to get the most out of my ride.
Rank: On the Podium
#147 Posted : Wednesday, October 21, 2015 4:23:55 AM(UTC)
Posting so that I have an easy bookmark for other devices; will have a read of this later.
Rank: Racing Permit
#148 Posted : Wednesday, October 21, 2015 11:45:11 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: BIG W0RM 80 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BEACHEDAS25 Go to Quoted Post
Has anyone done a beginner guide to tuning? This guide has blown my fragile little mind haha. I'm sure it makes more sense to those with a bit of tuning experience but for me just trying to figure out a starting point for tuning my first car I'm just totally confused. IchII3D your tips seemed good even though some mistakes. I might start out with some of your recommendations for tuning. I've put off trying to tune a car cause its all just a bit overwhelming.


Set everything to even. Roll bars front and back even, springs the same, etc

If it understeers the front is too stiff
If it oversteers the back is too stiff
If it skids and slides it is too stiff overall
If it feels like a boat your rebound is too low


Take that, play, play, and play some more. Learn one area of the car at a time when you are playing. When you have a grasp of roll bars move to springs and learn it. Just keep playing with stuff.


Reminds me when I first started recording engineering, I asked the guy"how do you get that great sound?", and he said, I don't know, I just turn the knobs until it sounds good! LOL
Shneeb108 / Racing SIM Tools Member
Shneeb
Rank: Driver's License
#149 Posted : Monday, May 29, 2017 8:36:27 AM(UTC)
sorry if this is bumping an old thread, i have been racing on forza since forza 2 and now race forza 6, i have only just been interested in tuning as i normally download tunes from well known names, this guide after a few reads is starting to make help me understand, i was gonna go down the route of a calculator using ((Weight x front %).7)/2 that as to working out the tune, but after reading this and scrolling through all the comments, i have decided not to bother with maths and just learn to tune from feel, that's 1 thing calculators don't do the maths for, i would like to say thank you for this guide and your mazda cosmo in e class is great
Rank: Driver's Permit
#150 Posted : Sunday, September 17, 2017 2:58:19 PM(UTC)
Hey what does camber do to your car
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