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1. If one person crashes another then you have two people crashing even if it isn't on purpose. Those two catch someone else out and now you have three people crashing in a lobby. Your vision in this game unless running in 3rd person is extremely limited, the removal of the distance meter creates a lot of these problems.

2. A bad person comes into a lobby, just one, and catches a few people. You now have 4 people crashing, at the minimum that is 25% of your lobby now crashing one another and catching others out in the process. The hiding of the Vote to Kick feature created a lot of this problem.

I see comments on it being a video game and I agree, this will happen no matter what but it is far more common to get online now and see more crashers than actual racers. SNE is correct, it is a bandaid but it is a bandaid on a self inflicted wound. Custom public lobbies as the only option for racing is the solution but that is likely never, ever going to happen in my opinion. I did a ton of racing in FM3, more than I even played on FM4, Horizon, and FM5 combined and there were no custom lobbies then at all. I still rarely ran into crashers, maybe someone blocking or crashing into someone to boost their friends True Skill but that was rare. I can only remember one purpose built crash team in FM3 and they were banned and kept creating new tags while getting banned again (long before I was a moderator or even on the forum).

Bring back vote to kick and streamline it so it can't be abused by the team clicking to vote the track/another player before you click them. Bring back the distance meter. It will solve a lot of the problems and the online community can police itself again.

Edited by user Friday, August 1, 2014 3:39:19 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I may be the voice out of the choir here, but I'll tell you what I think: Public Lobbies ar useless in Forza, and if there's an idiot here, it's he who steps in the pubs expecting fair, competitive, clean racing.

You see, a game is played by the 99% as seriously as it demands. Yes, there will be people who will use mathematical equations and their degree in Industrial Engineering to beat Tetris, or will spend years of their life trying to figure out the plot of PacMan, but... They (and to some extent, we) are a niche of players. Your average gamer will only put the minimum effort required in a game.

Games like iRacing are serious stuff. They feature plenty of functions designed to encourage clean racing and penalize dirty racers. They usually cost a lot of money, a large part of which is spent on a monthly subscription that serves the only purpose of allowing you to get to the racetrack. In other words, racing clean and hard is what the game requires, it's its raison d'etre, and crashers are very rare. Of course, that's not to say there aren't griefers in costly and over-complicated subscription games. But there, they represent a very small, albeit very noticeable, minority. They're out there not to have fun - but to ruin the fun of others.

Compare tha to Forza. It's relatively cheap (at 110 dollars w/ Season Pass), and hey, look, you can drive a McLaren P1 without touching the brakes once in a lap! It is not a hard game. Five years old me could've completed the career in, what, two months of after-school playing? Like it or not, we, the clean racers, are a niche. The Public Lobbies aren't for us; they're for the guys who have no clue about how they should behave on a racetrack (real or virtual) and have no interest in learning, and have more fun driving an hideously pimped-out LaFerrari and crashing into other cars. On a game like iRacing we would be the majority, the 99% of the players (and the 1% would probably be actual IRL racers - where IRL can mean two things at the same time); here we need to organize ourselves as a community within a community - and the many racing leagues, clubs, crews and whatever serve this purpose. Discussing while people crash into you in the pubs won't do much good.

And of course, T10 had to make it hard for us and remove many of the functions that allowed to easily set up a private lobby, or remove the option of custom pubs completely. Oh, bother.

It would appear that Turn 10/Microsoft are primarily concerned with selling the maximum amount of video games and have set up the online gameplay to appeal to the widest range of customers; from the few who want to have a strict unwritten set of rules that suit them to the wider range of players who don't seem to mind a few crashes here and there and aren't interested in dedicating their life to a video game franchise. The online lobbies have a lot of people who like to wreck cars and these forums are set up for the people who think that is wrong to complain about it.

Something for everyone.

If you wreck people online and are caught you will be banned. Everything doesn't have to be written down. People were banned in FM3 for it, FM4 for it, and FM5. It isn't part of the game and shouldn't be.

It's not even an argument.

Hi Bart,
You are aware of how many people use the XBL system. Personally I don't think Microsoft investigates much into in-game action/complaints.
I feel they are more focused on harassment via text or chat messages.
If Microsoft was to monitor all the complaints about in-game activity then they would have to have a massive team investigating it.
But I agree with you about the points you make above, marked A and B.

But I think they get more involved if its harassment via communications. People play games for fun. For some people, ramming and crashing in a game is fun. Look at the sales of the Burnout series.
I prefer clean racers too and more preferably 'collisions off' mode, but I don't think we should start to dictate to others on how they play THEIR game which THEY paid for.
Ask any developer of any online multiplayer game and they will tell you..."its best to play with your friends".

The OP of this thread stated in his OP ..."Reading these forums, every third post is about the bad racing online."
If every 3rd post is complaining about rammers, then the only problem that exists is that clean racers don't want to befriend other clean racers.

But on the reporting system, I never report anyone for an in game activity. I only use it if the person is abusive via text or chat.

I honestly thought the upgrade to the xbl friends system would have been the end of these types of discussion. I mean, people serious about racing forza now have the ability to add 100's of like-minded folks. Didn't think this would be something a "mtaf" couldn't fix on a nightly basis. Is it really still that hard to gather up half a lobby of racers?

Custom lobbies are a nightmare to set up

Hit me up if its a custom lobby your after. We have a lobby open most nights. Proper racing with people who want to race properly.

Take it from me, if you can build up enough contacts to regularly open a private lobby, this game has a whole new life span.

You're doing a good thing Prolaticus and trying to make the game better for newcomers and veterans alike. I commend you on your efforts.
I think a lot of people here can see that you're trying to do a good thing but realistically speaking....what you are asking is very hard to achieve.
As you said even good racers can crash into good racers.
If people were really dedicated to learning and improving their racing they would be using the in-game career and Free Play modes to accustom themselves to the circuit and car of their choice.
In general, the only people who buy car racing games are people who are into motorsports. A lot of them would know about braking and racing etiquette.

Ramming occurs due to many reasons such as: Lack of speed compared to others, unfamiliar with the circuit layout, unfamiliar with the car, etc.
If they really wanted to get good at racing, the only place to do that is in the FM5 Free Play Mode.

Anyone who is looking for help in the game should always be helped and aided with as much accurate information as possible.
But, even at that, there's people who like to bash and crash because that is how they enjoy playing their game. They see it as a game and not real life.
And if they are having fun doing that then who are we to dictate how they should play their game which they paid for.

Even if Turn 10 made 2 online modes such as 'clean racing only' and 'anything goes', I could nearly put my hand on my heart and swear that there would still be bashing in the 'clean racing mode'.
Finding like minded people is the key to having fun races, I'm sure the people who like to crash and bash would love to find other crashers and bashers just as much as clean racers would love to find other clean racers.

But I think everyone here can see that you're trying to a good thing. There is nobody questioning your good intentions, but realistically speaking you're aims may be very hard to achieve.
Like you, if anyone asks me for help I will do my best to accommodate them but I'm not going to go out of my way and dictate how they should play their game.

I have come to realize that the lobby racing is not for me for the most part. I am to cautious around other drivers as not to wreck them and I always end up way down in standings at the end of a race even though I have a lot of Top 1% (I know top 1% isn't that impressive seeing a top 1% time can be 7 or 8 seconds of the leader) times on a lot of tracks in a lot of the classes and some Top 300 times. So i know I cant be worse than a Level 100 guy. I just try and race the right way and end up finishing low. I only venture into multiplayer when I am looking for some achievement points. Other that that its all going after personal bests.

Hi TG,
I done a race last night at Spa. I entered a public lobby. I was approaching Eau Rouge flat out and the next thing I got shunted into the barrier.
The person that hit me [I won't name names] was a driver level, 1,880 [yes. level one thousand eight hundred and eighty]. I'm a level 90.

So who's fault was it?
Did they hit me cos I was too slow or did they hit me intentionally? Was their set up faster than mine?

In my race, I stuck to the racing line at all times. In any real life racing its up to the opposing car to ensure a clean overtake and to make it stick.
I believe it wasn't their fault or my fault. It was just something that happened in a split second.
But, if I had the video, it would show that person just flying down the straight and taking me out.

So TG, is Turn 10 going to ban this level 1,880 driver? I'd certainly hope not.
Can I ask, what procedures do Turn 10 take into account when determining someone's fate?
Surely 1 video and 1 complaint can't cut it?

Also, if Turn 10 are going to ban people who have purchased their product, then its only fair that Turn 10 puts a warning display on all future games [pre-purchase] such as...
"If you wreck people online and are caught you will be banned".
At least that way people will understand and know the facts before parting with their cash.
However, I feel this would actually cost Turn 10 and drive sales down rather than up.

Like you TG, I love the clean racing but I know before purchase that the MP modes [in any game] are for from perfect. Some people play games differently then other people.
I have raced online in many other games and the facts are that self acclaimed clean racers are very fond of bashing too, particularly when they're losing .

How do you mean TG, could you elaborate a bit more please?

Recently started playing iRacing and they've incorporated a safety rating system, which works a treat. All the lower level people get put into the lower end, higher people in the higher end. There is a certain amount of warnings (I think 17 for an example) 4 for car contact, 1 for off road, 1 for spinning and there was one more I can't remember. Once you hit 17, you're dq from the race and can't race anymore. Also they have if you cut the track you must slow down (they have it flashing at you SLOW DOWN) until it goes away. Otherwise black flag and you're outta there!

Simple things like this would make this game so much better and me (a forza lover) wouldn't be pushed away to go play another racing game.

No need for it being on the box, it's in your Code of Conduct for Xbox Live.







There you have it.

When we talk about crashers this is not what we're talking about. We are talking about people that go into a lobby with the sole intent to wreck cars. Accidents are part of racing at any level. I look at levels in the lobby as guys join to avoid issues like this. I can assure you it would not be your bumper I followed up Eau Rouge for that reason.

When you talk about players getting banned and crash teams its much more than that. I've seen S-Class cars do a version of "cat & mouse" in ABC when they are the only one acting as a cat. That would be a violation of the code of conduct. I've seen a group a 3 drivers working together to try and wreck everyone else in the lobby. Ban them!

I get punted off the track all the time by people just making mistakes. I'd be a liar if I never said I never ruined someone's race. I apologize or I forgive and 5 minutes later we get a do-over. This is not considered harassment.

This isn't a matter for the devs. This is for the people who whiteboard and come up with the ideas and structure of the game. Menu design, content, etc.



My post was long because I wanted to communicate as clearly as possible, but I feel like I've either failed to do so or I've written way too much.

There is no manual. The manual was an example of how game companies *used* to teach players how to play. Manuals aren't the way to go, obviously.

This is not for the wreckers (necessarily). This is for the people who don't know how to play a racing game. The ones who don't know what an apex is or why you'd turn certain assists off while leaving others on. It's for the people who truly don't understand etiquette.

There's so much knowledge and experience in these forums that it seems a lot of people have forgotten what it's like to be brand new. I've been programming since I was five, and I can pick up new languages and concepts easily because of it. I know better, though, than to expect someone beginning much later to be able to do the same. In other words, I remember when I didn't know what an apex was, just as I remember when I had no idea what Objective-C was.

One of my earliest races was around Prague. Another player asked, "Do you always brake-check everybody?" As far as I knew, I was braking to slow down for corners, but he took my actions to be intentional and malicious. When I said as much, ironically, he became angrier and assumed I was feigning ignorance to try to get away with bad behavior. After that race, I looked up brake-checking. Worked on never doing it again. Had I at least heard of it before, I might never have made the mistake of doing it in the first place.

Anyway, how far should The Manual go (remembering that we're not talking about an actual manual)?

A few ideas:

- A mandatory career mode style introduction to racing that, instead of teaching players how to run into cardboard double-decker buses, teaches players, race-by-race, a few concepts that will help them not only play politely, but play *better*.

- Given the detail of the recorded telemetry (it's how replays are replayed, after all), it would be easy enough to see if drivers are learning how to keep a line, as well as whether they're cutting massively (such as at Silverstone, Le Mans, Yas, etc.) - send those people back to a quick refresher. I don't know. But do *something*.

- Include *useful* build-in help that is easily accessible from the home screen. I don't mean some paragraphs on how great Forza 5 is. I mean FAQs that answer simple questions like, "Someone said I was 'brake-checking' - what does that mean?"

- Add a section for community that, oh, I don't know, directs people here. Not only would it bring more life to the forums, but it might, as it did for me, provide help well beyond what I could expect to have learned on my own (but I wasn't ready for this kind of help until I got the basics down - remember - we all start at the bottom).

I'm not talking about the Encyclopedia Forzica, but some core information that would go a ways toward improving the online experience.

I have never suggested a cure-all (maybe I shouldn't have used the word "panacea"). I've been clear that progress is incremental and requires cooperation.

No solution will ever satisfy everybody. This board is, frustratingly, the best place to discuss topics like this, but also populated by the worst audience for figuring out the needs of the beginner.

To determine what kind of help should be included, the total novice should be consulted. Then, with some guidance by several people who really know what they're doing, *something* could be done. I think few people here need help, and that would make the question of "Where to start?" one that is much more difficult than it appears.

I think you're taking it slightly out of context TG.

I feel that has more to do with communications via text and headset rather than in-game activities such as a bit of ramming and bashing.
If Microsoft is only going to allow people to play GAMES in the manner that they feel is right then they may as well just shut shop now.

A guy got banned on Xbox Live cos he crashed into a few people in a racing car game, the people he crashed into took it really seriously and reported him. He was banned.
In real life he dedicates and devotes his entire life to the service of homeless people and charities but yet Microsoft judge him to be a total jerk cos he crashed into a few people in a GAME.
Being honest TG, I don't think that is the message that Microsoft wants to send out to people.







I'll cut to the chase HONUSDAN, I don't send my kids out in the street to play with strangers. Its the same online. Play with friends.
And if Turn 10 and Microsoft is banning them then it seems like a losing battle. Its seems that more and more are doing this everyday.
Its a waste of our time reporting them and a waste of Turn 10 and MS investigating them.
If people played with friends [and not ANONYMOUS online strangers] then all would be fine.

Since I joined this community last weekend all I see is everyone here in this forum giving out about bad racers. Someone should make a thread looking for clean racers and just start befriending each other. Turn 10 should make it a stickied thread.
The whole point of this community and forum is to meet like minded people. Or is it more a case of... people only want to befriend people they can beat.

The only real way to tackle this issue of ramming is to befriend other clean racers.
I have put up my gamertag asking for clean racers to befriend me. I even asked it in this thread but as yet, I have received no invites or friends request.
At this point I think people just like come to the forums to complain about the rammers but don't really want to do anything about it, cos if they did they'd have nothing to complain about.
Ramming is occuring since the dawn of online racing games, its a problem that affects every racing car game on the market. When you race with strangers, its obvious that not all strangers are going to conform to your exact ideal on how a game should be played.
Do you send your kids out to play with anoymous strangers in real life? No, you don't, at least I certainly hope not. The golden rule for online gaming is to play with friends not ANONYMOUS strangers.

I'd like to clarify a few things:

1. I'm not talking about a physical manual. If that's how this came across, then my bad. The manual was an example of how gamers used to learn how to play a game - not a suggestion for the future of gaming.

2. I'm not talking about eradicating crashes. Crashes will happen. I don't know why this is ever even brought up. Whether racing or not, if there's a car involved in an activity, there will eventually be a crash. My mom crashed her car into her own house. It was her vs. the chimney, and she lost. Cars hit each other and other things. Period.

3. I'm not talking about altering human nature. Roughly 2% of the population is comprised of sociopaths (an umbrella term for personality disorders that tend to manifest themselves in anti-social ways). There's no medication for these people. It can even be argued there's nothing technically wrong with them. They are the way they are, they can't change, and they are among us, buying consoles and playing racing games.

4. I'm not talking about custom lobbies or whether no-collisions lobbies are good or bad. Those are separate issues that have their own threads. Yeah, I got distracted and contributed to those tangents. Again, my bad.

5. I'm not talking about an opt-in system. I'm talking about, for example, a tutorial based career mode that must be played before going online. It doesn't have to be long, but if you want to play with others, you really should know what a racing line is. You should know not to use other cars as brakes. You should know that slowing down is just as important and beneficial as speeding up.

Will any of this stop people from wrecking accidentally or intentionally? NO! Of course not. Absolutely not.

But when did ignorance ever help anybody get better at something that, like racing, is technical? There are wrecks in the real world every day. Most of the people in those wrecks have licenses. Would freeways be safer if we just let anybody out on the road without a little mandatory training? No, and the same is true for Forza. Everyday driving doesn't translate into an understanding of racing.

Please, please try to remember how much you know compared to the first-time player. This is my first racing game, and I've been learning as I've gone along. I've made *all* the mistakes that look like intentional wrecking because I didn't know how to get a car around a track. My enthusiasm for the game was (and is) through the roof. Unfortunately, enthusiasm, knowledge, and skill aren't the same things.

Think about YouTube slideshows of supercars purchased by people who don't know how to drive them. I'm talking about those slideshows with every fancy car under the sun lodged in the upper-branches of trees. Guys who turn off the traction-control and think flooring it in a Porsche is A-OK. Drivers who don't comprehend just how fast those cars really are.

I'm that rich guy whose Porsche is in the tree. Just without the money and the Porsche. But if you could lodge cars in trees in Forza, I'd have done it a hundred times by now.

Stuff happens. But it's possible to make less stuff happen, and it would come at *no cost* to any of you. Wouldn't you like a better game that requires zero effort on your part to improve?

Prolaticus, you are correct of course in what you say. But being honest and not being rude, you're doing it in the wrong place. Most, if not all, members here are clean racers and know the etiquette of driving.
As community members we can't force people to come to the forums to discuss issues.

I agree with your idea on an in-game tutorial of sorts, however there are many games that have took this approach [PP's GT for example], but yet the ramming and bashing still goes on.
If people want to learn about racing etiquette, there is no shortage of information on the internet or indeed on the TV screen. They need to help themselves first. If they were truly interested in learning race etiquette they wouldn't need to be asking for someone to tell them, they would have took it upon themselves to learn it prior to playing.

As I said, you're doing a good thing for newcomers, but beware, there is many who know racing etiquette but just love to crash into others for the sheer hell of it.
I have often sent a message to other players [in other games] asking why did they ram me not once but 3 times?
The reply I got read along the lines of......"I work in the military, I had a bad day and I'll just do as I feel and I have every right to do so. Are you going to deny me my fun, after all I'm doing for our country".

Seriously Prolaticus, how would you expect me to have a discussion about racing etiquette with a complete idiot like that?
Bearing in mind that the two of us come from different countries.

OP, I wouldn't mind at all a racing tutorial, or a series of racing tutorials. I fancy myself a quite experienced driver, but I could use a refresher, getting used to the new physics and whatnot of a new game in a safe environment (Gran Turismo, for example, has driving licenses, which are good even if I know how to take a corner or pass a car thank you).

But this will help that small group that wants to be part of the niche but still lacks the skill. The Few Chosen One who buy the game because it has a Lotus 49 or a Ferrari 312 T, or because they've stumbled upon the TORA or VM or GSR or what have you website. This is the kind of people that would be grateful for in-game tutorials and any learning material that can be provided. But it won't help a single bit in providing an environment that makes of clean and competitive racing its focus. People are out there to win, no matter the consequences, because that's what years of SP and hyper-competitive MP experience have taught them - they don't care about our stupid notion of honor and fair-play, all they care for is crossing the line first. And people are out there to grief - if anything, going by a tutorial that tells them what, exactly, grinds our gears, will only make them stronger.

You see, you make an honest mistake, which is assuming that if they knew how to do it, most people would race cleanly. But guess what? They wouldn't. So, while I'd welcome the introduction of a "racing school" of sort (and come to think of it, the collaboration with the Bob Durant School of High Performance Driving hasn't been used that much!) I wouldn't expect it to make the Public Lobbies a place where one can compete fairly for any position of the field without getting smacked into the gluegrass. I wouldn't expect to make as much as a dent in the deep-seated notion that rubbin' is racing and all is fair in love and war and online gaming. It's a problem that goes way beyond Forza and the community.

But I would expect the numbers of the aforementioned racing associations to increase significantly. Because there would be guys that would grow an interest in regulated, fair, door-to-door racing, and they'd go looking for someone who can provide an environment for that. And remember, we're all but 1% of the Forza user base... If another 1% were to join us, we would already have seen our numbers duplicate.

The real problem crashers don't want to learn clean racing. Maybe that will make my point clear.

I noticed something in singleplayer that reinforces the OPs comments. To get a "perfect" pass you have to skim the paintwork of the other car. If you aren't that close, no matter how brilliant your line was, it's only rated "good".
Perhaps this encourages new players to try to overtake unnecessarily close as they think its better?

I agree with others though. Only way to guarantee better racing is to race with people you know.

I don't know what the solution to crashers is, I don't even know if there IS as solution, but surely anything that could go some way to educating would-be crashers BEFORE they set out to ruin the enjoyment of others would be a good thing? Personally, I would much rather increase the pool of fair racers in this fashion than reduce the overall pool of players by them being banned.

I do think a pop-up message when entering multiplayer advising that bans are enforced for extreme cases of unfair play could act as a deterrent.

How are you arguing the ToS with me when I know the interpretation and I know people were banned? I'm 100% certain the enforcement team from MS goes into games and bans people for behavior that was reported. I'm 100% certain people have been banned by Turn 10 for it.

[Mod Edit - You may not discuss the rules and regulations of this board on the forum. Any and all discussions regarding these matters should be discussed by EMAIL ONLY to Turn 10. - D]

Edited by user Saturday, August 2, 2014 10:24:22 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified