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Rank: Racing Permit
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#1 Posted : Tuesday, July 29, 2014 3:16:32 PM(UTC)
Reading these forums, every third post is about the bad racing online.

I understand the frustration, the desire to allocate blame, and the rule of nature that dictates one expend as little energy as possible to get from point A to point B.

This is *not* an anti-T10 post. What I talk about here applies to just about every game I've played for a while. But it does help explain the "idiots".

Does anybody remember the days when games came with manuals? Like, there was this booklet kind of thing that had information about the game in it. It taught you how to play the game... how to configure the game... little niceties that made it easy to get started.

Forza 5 has something similar to those booklets, but it consists of that not-entirely-helpful help you can access from a buried menu (the location of which I've forgotten because it's, you know, buried). It's thin on info. The absolute bare amount of information required. That's it. Nothing notable about driving style. Nothing about how one should remain on the track during a race. It's nothing. And it's a nothing that people won't even find.

This isn't just a T10 thing, but an industry thing. Manuals don't exist anymore. Instead, we get contextual help (which might not help), we get half-written FAQs, and, ultimately, the closest thing to a manual anyone can find is what's created by the community, such as this forum and the information provided by *very* generous people. But a forum still isn't a manual, and there are many people who have no idea the forum even exists. Furthermore, that doesn't take into account the difficulty of navigating a forum if you aren't used the medium.

So, how are people supposed to learn racing etiquette? Most of them don't even know they can turn assists on and off. I'm talking about important - *critical* - options that completely change the game. When I played F5 for the first time, I don't remember a tutorial telling me in any detail how to do these things. I remember being put in a P1 and told not to worry about winning. Then I cruised around Prague in a car with so many assists on that I'm not even sure I had anything to do with driving it.

And what about career mode? Anybody remember their first couple races after being given a free car? The first race is a nice trip through the Alps. But the second race...

I apologize for the caps, but I don't think I can emphasize this point enough. In the second race, your job is to drive around the Top Gear track while SLAMMING INTO TRASH BINS, ROAD BLOCKS, LUGGAGE, ROAD SIGNS, and CARDBOARD BUSES.

That's the second race! Your introduction to Forza 5 includes a destruction derby. Not just with the aforementioned objects (I even left out a few), but with cars on the road. Sure, you're not told to run into the cars, but what do you think is going to happen when you can't see what's ahead of you because a cardboard double-decker is in the way?

Before or after the race, is there anything saying, "Please don't do this online, as it might bother other players." No. Nothing. You get a medal, and if you did well, the medal triggers your brain to release a shot of dopamine into a pleasure center, and now you've learned that slamming into things makes you feel goooooood (I'm going overboard with the dopamine - kind of). After that, you get curious about playing online, so you head to a lobby. What do you find? The slogan "Rubbing is racing" (if you've played in the beginner C lobby, you know what I'm talking about). I can't tell you how many times I've been flipped by someone who apologizes by saying, "Get over it, dude.... rubbing is racing."

Um. Argh? ARGH!

Where's the tutorial that explains racing lines? Or assists? Or how to pass properly? Or what an apex is? These are simple things. They may not be exciting, but there isn't even the tiniest effort made to teach the uninitiated what racing is, as opposed to just driving.

Where's the tutorial that explains the advanced settings? How many people accidentally slam into things because they don't know they can adjust controller deadzones, thereby customizing the sensitivity to best suit their style? I did much better when I switched to 0-100 for steering.

I realize it's a lot of information to cover, but it's important.

There should at least be a section of the game, accessible from the main menu (the screen where you select career mode, multiplayer, etc.), that takes you to detailed tutorial videos. Done correctly, you could explain in a couple minutes how to properly take a corner. You won't turn the player into the greatest racer in the universe, but you *might* improve things just enough. Little tutorials like that.

And yes, yes, yes: I know people have made similar tutorials and posted them online. That's great. But it should all be included with the game, done professionally, and be easy to find. You *must* give people the path of least resistance to information.

It's hard for me to believe that the geniuses (I use that word in all seriousness) at T10 can make something as epic as F5, but can't get it together enough to create some *real* help. Real tutorials.

So, are the people online "idiots"? Or are they uninformed? Obviously they can be either of these things, both of these things, and any combination of other qualities (uninformed Nobel Prize winners, for example).

It's not right to call them idiots or to attribute maliciousness to their bad racing when nothing has been done by T10 to start them off on the right foot.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#2 Posted : Tuesday, July 29, 2014 10:36:52 PM(UTC)
I'll admit I loved the "Tour of London", but I've never thought about it that way. You may have a point. Perhaps Mr. Clarkson is not a racing coach.

However, I don't think it excuses the online idiocy. The Tour race is obviously a joke, anyone who thinks that's how the game is needs to log a few more hours in SP.
"Precision, finesse, and handling will ALWAYS be defeated by shouting, smoking, and POWER."

-Jeremy Clarkson, explaining how an AMG Merc beat a Maserati on TG track.

Rank: Racing Legend
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#3 Posted : Tuesday, July 29, 2014 10:41:24 PM(UTC)
Depends if the complainers are talking about accidental taps or what some people call rubbin is racin or out and out deliberate crashing.

A manual is not going to stop options 2 or 3. People will do those things. There are trolls who deliberatly go out to annoy others. No manual will stop them doing what they do.

If people are complaining about love taps that is something else. To be honest I don't think the lack of a manual has anything to do with this. No manual is going to say thou shalt not touch another car or under what circumstances contact is or is not ok.

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Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#4 Posted : Tuesday, July 29, 2014 11:18:13 PM(UTC)
A couple of thoughts:

1. Most people have never been taught how to race. Prior to this game, that list included me. The reason why most vehicle games are like Mario Kart and less like Forza is that racing is...hard. And, to be honest, I would say the majority of people who pick up Forza really don't want to learn racing. They just want to get in a pretty car and go vroom. Fact is, people in this forum are a minority of Forza players. Here you find top racers and others who want to learn/get better. Regarding the manual, my thought is that it simply wouldn't be cost effective for Turn 10. The vast majority of them would go in the garbage/be unread.

2. I like the tutorial video idea. In fact, I once suggested it as a way to spend excess credits (which, in this game, pile up very quickly). But, again, how cost effective is it? Learning proper racing for many is like eating vegetables and they want a big piece of chocolate cake for dinner.

3. I think many of the MP issues can be ascribed to any online game that involves the general public. I have yet to see any form of online game that didn't have jerks and cheaters. Games that throw the general public into one big pot and expect things to go smoothly completely ignore how human nature works. That's why private lobbies and collision off racing work much better than a public collision-on hopper.

4. The material for improving your racing is out there. Either you can get help from people in here or if you are the shy type, look for videos/guides on driving techniques. Regarding online etiquette, if you follow this one rule, everything else should fall into place:

Don't deliberately be a jerk

Other thing vary depending on the individuals. Some are OK with rubbing and some will flip out if you breathe on their car. People who flip out on you when you make an honest mistake can be just as aggravating as trolls and cheaters. See point #3.

Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#5 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 2:00:00 AM(UTC)
I would like to nominate this as my favorite thread.... and the winner goes to this thread... congrats thread
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#6 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 2:38:45 AM(UTC)
Well, I had my typical massive 20 paragraph reply written up and was about to post it when my glorious phone decided to randomly reboot for me... I don't have the motivation to re-write all of that, but my main point was this: the Forza Motorsport 1 manual.

That manual alone showed me how to play FM1. Without it I would've just stuck with NFS; being 7 years old trying to figure out Forza made me feel like I was supposed to be a rocket scientist until I read that thing...

Bigtime Muscle Member | Now on One!
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#7 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 5:19:41 AM(UTC)
[Mod Edit - Abbreviated profanity, profanity and profanity that is disguised but still alludes to the words are not permitted - D]

Edited by user Saturday, August 2, 2014 1:19:28 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#8 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 5:31:59 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: GER FIXER303 Go to Quoted Post
[Mod Edit - Abbreviated profanity, profanity and profanity that is disguised but still alludes to the words are not permitted - D]

Great response. It is easy to point the finger somewhere else but I know I shouldn't crash into other cars or drive backwards. Manuals are not needed to point these things out just as bible is not needed to realize killing someone is bad.

Timeless quote by Confusius: "What the superior man seeks is in himself; what the small man seeks is in others."

Another one: "What you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others." - But I do not think crashers mind getting crashed by others in this case.

If Confucius had the pleasure of playing games online he might have had many more quotes . . .

Edited by user Saturday, August 2, 2014 1:19:56 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

"Racing is life. Anything before or after . . . is just waiting." Steve McQueen, LeMans '71
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#9 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 5:55:03 AM(UTC)
Thank you, I thought I would earn a lot of hate with my post
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#10 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 6:51:12 AM(UTC)
You make a very good point. Is it going to get rid of ALL the trolls? No. But if even 1 person picked up Forza and immediately enjoyed proper racing... maybe they would never turn into that troll. Instead of going to the lobbies to crash, they would be looking for good racing. Would be nice to have some built in training in career mode. Maybe even license tests like Gran Turismo. Shoot... all you'd have to do is make a track day event one of the first career events, but make the goal for gold the number of cars you pass MINUS the number of cars you hit. Start teaching people to pass cleanly right off the bat. I like it!
Rank: R-Class Racing License
User is suspended until 11/28/2042 2:06:57 PM(UTC)
#11 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 7:16:15 AM(UTC)
Without consequence, anarchy. That is the problem with the mp system. Further after being wrecked several times things start to escalate and now more people start to drive "aggressively". T10 needs to implement a license system. Not like GT, rather if you deliberately cut a corner you earn points on your license, if you wreck someone earn points. After a set amount of points are acquired you receive a 2-3 day ban from mp. If the behavior persists the ban grows in length. That or make it that if people are wrecking and acting inappropriately they need to pay for the damage done by them during a race. If they don't have the credits they can't play until they work it off.

Just stop. Just sayin.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#12 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 8:29:50 AM(UTC)
The thing that I believe contributes to most peoples play style online is that most American players only exposure to real racing is Nascar. A lot of people don't even realize that most of the behavior that goes on in MP races would result in penalties in Grand Prix, Indy, or sports car racing. This is not the only contributer to the problem but this explains the rubbing is racing mentally of a lot of people.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#13 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 8:36:32 AM(UTC)
Most people in real life struggle to drive competently. Most people definitely have no idea how to drive on a circuit and one play of multiplayer will show you that.

I see late braking, sliding, and generally poor car control every single time I play.

However, this doesn't keep me from playing online. I try to race some every day. I deal with crashers and poor drivers, it's the nature of the beast. They're learning and I don't expect everyone to be Mario Andretti out there.

You also can't expect the casual player to ever dedicate any kind of extra curricular study, but watching motorsports in your free time can give one an idea of how to drive on-track. I've been a racing fan my whole life. I know what driving fast looks like and that translates to Forza, even though it's a game.

Real world driving principles work for me. But I also have put in tens of thousands of miles in the Forza series. Almost 30 thousand in Forza 5 alone. I practice a lot and want to be even faster.

There's no substitute for experience and no "help menu" or instructional feature can replicate that.
Rank: On the Podium
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#14 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 8:43:49 AM(UTC)
The "online idiots" (that's not very nice of the OP) are going to go through a 50+ page manual telling them how to play the game. Yeah, okay.

To prove that point further, Gran Turismo is synonymous for its license tests and attempts to instruct its gamers on how to accelerate, brake and corner properly. Has that resulted in a positive impact on the online racing experience? Maybe in the slightest, but it is very, very, very hard to tell.

Just get used to it folks. Of the two million that have a copy of Forza Motorsport 5, a very small percentage of those are going to race according to sportsmanlike practices. The others - ranging in ages from 5 to 105 - are going to do whatever damn well makes them happy. Perhaps this thread could use a manual of how to create a friends list of likeminded racers and assemble a private lobby. Or am I right in suspecting many would avoid reading that too?

Edited by user Wednesday, July 30, 2014 8:52:23 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#15 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 10:49:10 AM(UTC)
I agree with the OP about the manuals. I say that from a personal point of view. I don't think manuals will stop people who 'deliberately' crash others but for the player themselves I think manuals are needed.
I had lots of trouble finding certain things within FM5. Its ok for people who have played the series but for newcomers its quite confusing.

As for the online rammers, Turn 10 and all other racing car developers are sick of telling us this message...."PLAY WITH YOUR FRIENDS".
Some people will respond that they don't have friends that play this game. These forums can help.
So far, approximately, 13 people have posted here and agreed that the online ramming is ruining their Forza 5 experience.
Why don't we all befriend each other and race against each other. Its obvious that everyone in this thread is like minded and wants to race clean.

But as for the bigger issue of online rammers.......people are allowed to play the game in any way they feel. What ruins your experience may be fun to others. Our 'clean racing' may seem like no fun to other players whereas their ramming and dirty tactics seem no fun to us. Its a completely different story if a player is being harassed vocally via messages or headset but I don't think ramming someone in a game is a serious offence.

As 'clean' racers we just need to find others who share that mindset. Seems like there is a good heap of us here on this forum.

July 29th 2014 - International Tiger Day
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#16 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 10:55:39 AM(UTC)
While GT licensing does provide some school time for the techniques, it demands rather than teaches.

Conceptually speaking, I would like to see:

1. A virtual Driving school (offline) that takes the player from novice > intermediate > proficient > pro etc. The Rivals mode does sort of provide this experience without the instructions. Most of driving techniques are learned either through trial & error (taking long time) or by reading about them (which also takes a long time to find, study, then duplicate/learn).

2. A virtual Racing school (offline) that teaches "racing", i.e. situational awareness, anticipation, strategy & planning, passing techniques (passing & being passed), etc.

Achieving certain proficiency in speed and safety allows one to move up, be recognized, and/or be matched with players of same/better skill sets.

There has to be consequence for poor sportsmanship & perks for good sportsmanship.
"Racing is life. Anything before or after . . . is just waiting." Steve McQueen, LeMans '71
Rank: Racing Permit
#17 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 11:09:10 AM(UTC)
Don't be afraid to report these racers either. A day long ban from Forza would give them second thoughts about just going into a lobby and driving around willy nilly.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#18 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 11:10:50 AM(UTC)
This did sort of explain it to me, apart from the actual manual bit. If anyone who would of wanted to read the manual n the first place cared enough, they could go to the 'Help' section in the game, which opens up a snapped app, showing help and... helpful stuff. I guess.

Never used it myself, but I assume that's what it is.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#19 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 11:25:51 AM(UTC)
Page 13 paragraph 4.

While it easily may seem to be a legit form of racing it is indeed considered unsporting to team up with several friends, choose the most pointless heavy cars we could put in the game, and use them in multiplayer to smash other players off the track. Furthermore it is doubly unsporting to wait and go laps down for racing players to return to your position to smash them off again. Please try your best to avoid doing this in the multiplayer racing lobbies.

While shortcuts and railings may seem to have put into the game to offer additional assists to players who may need them, just as you may have seen all the time in real racing, they are in fact only there for reality's sake. Please while in multiplayer lobbies do not cut 600 yards off the course with a shortcut or scream through a turn at 180+ because a guardrail will hold you. The online community has oddly deemed this form of racing, which we realize is easily confused as legitimate, unsporting.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
#20 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 11:27:23 AM(UTC)
Manuals used to be really cool! they used to have everything you needed to know. Now they're just a booklet with 2 pages.

One manual I used to like which helped and was in-depth about the game was the GTA San Andreas manual. That was detailed!
Forza Twitch & Mixer mod.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#21 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 11:43:50 AM(UTC)
Full damage hoppers. Intentional wreckers won't inhabit them for long because the thrill is very short lived when their car is disabled after one crash. The race would be over by the time they limp to the pits for repair. I saw this happen in the full damage endurance races on Grand Prix weekends. They quit quickly when their cars were disabled. Throw some rules in for the corner cutters and we might get some proper racing.

I also think some of the wrecking is due to internet connections. Last night I was cut off by many of the people passing me and I was doing the same to them. I would see them in my rear view mirror and come over and they would go off track behind me. It made no sense for them to run me off the road when they had a clean pass.
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#22 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:15:07 PM(UTC)
My post was long and a bit demanding of patience and attention. There are some misunderstandings here that are definitely my fault.

First, I don't mean supplying a literal manual. That would be nice, but I digitally download games (let's not argue the benefits of downloads vs. discs, please). I wouldn't even get one of these manuals.

But, for starters, instead of being treated to a destructive race around London, I could be treated to a five-minute mandatory video providing context and introducing racing vocabulary. Maybe even focus on what makes a game like F5 "different" from your typical arcade racer.

I avoid party mode because I like to hear what people are talking about. If you avoid general game chat, then something you aren't aware of is that there are *many* people out there who are just beginning but have no clue where to start. Really nice people (some really rude people, too - expect the usual spectrum of personality types). They're crashing into corners and using other cars as brakes because they don't know what to do. They haven't even heard the word "apex". They don't understand that braking is hugely important and can give a racer incredible advantages over those who just build for speed.

It isn't just beginners, either. There are drivers whose levels are in the hundreds who still ask for help. "Why does that guy win?" You'll hear variations of that question often.

I'm not advocating any particular solution. What I'm saying is that there are ways to *improve* what we deal with. I'd also suggest, at the risk of being hated right out of here, that a lot of perspective has been lost in the forums. So many complaints followed up by the same "Well, just do THIS" and "Just do THAT" opinions. Clearly, just doing this-or-that hasn't worked, has it? Get out of party mode, try talking to a beginner, and ask why they're ramming into people. Stop assuming these are all eight year olds trying to ruin your day. I meet tons of adults who race terribly. It's not about any particular demographic.

Aside from the misunderstandings that were my fault, there are also the usual jaded responses that we *must* all be tired of seeing:

- "Why bother? It won't change anything..."

- "Nobody's going to read anything!"

- "Nobody's going to watch anything!"

- "Nobody's going to put in the effort!"

Again, there are people in lobbies practically begging for help (and I've seen some embarrassing responses from good players - players who treat a level 10 as though he's a wrecker and has to be harassed out of the room - it works, too - which is terrible for Forza - we all start at level 1 and work our way up).

Now, how can anybody seriously assert that these ideas won't work when nobody's tried them?

When I was a public speaker for a living, my audiences were mostly great. But there were *always* one or two people who just had to nay-say everything (even when they agreed with me, they'd find ways to fight). Unsurprisingly, when asking them if they'd ever tried the solutions I was presenting, most hadn't. They magically knew these ideas wouldn't work. They were prophets of cynicism. Lovely people.

There's an elitism and an arrogance to thinking that you will put in the effort to learn, but that others won't (I'd like to think it's obvious I'm not talking to everybody who comes to the forum, but I don't want to take that chance, so let me be clear: I'm talking only about those who voice their cynical opinions and seem to argue just to argue).

Remember when the fight for no-collisions lobbies started? I loved that fight because there were so many people here arguing that it would never work. It was crazy. It was bonkers. It wasn't "real racing". And they were *wrong*.

Granted, there will be those of you who hate them, but read these forums without blinders on, and you'll see that the no-collisions lobbies have been very successful. People love them.

Like other useful suggestions I've seen, this isn't a panacea. Some of you prophets may be right. Maybe training and *real* help would only reach ten-percent of the audience. However, combine that ten-percent with all the other ten-percent ideas, and we'd see progress. If you shoot down everything, NOTHING GETS DONE.

It's not all or nothing. True improvement is incremental. That's why software is released in versions. What if, instead of releasing updates and fixes, T10 had simply left F5 as it was on the day of release? How many of you would've been ok with that? It's obvious some people will never be satisfied, and there absolutely are problems (getting dashboarded, for one), but *some* improvement is better than *no* improvement.

Consider these ideas with an open mind. Don't just swoop in and post to post. Do you want to make online Forza better? Then put in the effort. Knee-jerk reactions add to the noise and help no one.
Rank: Racing Permit
#23 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:32:20 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: The Shadow Edge Go to Quoted Post
The "online idiots" (that's not very nice of the OP) are going to go through a 50+ page manual telling them how to play the game. Yeah, okay.

I used the word "idiots" because I'd seen it used prominently in another recent post about online players. I found it very harsh. That's exactly why I used it in the title - my point, as suggested by the quotes ("idiots"), is that the label was inappropriate. I know meaning is lost in writing. My bad.

And this is already, in the first paragraph, descending into absurdity. I don't recall suggesting a "50+ page manual". I didn't even suggest a manual. I used the manual as an example of how companies used to provide their customers with useful information on how to play a game. Use your imagination to see the modern analogues: tutorials, *helpful* online help, in-game training, etc.

Also, I don't mean to single you out (I picked you because of the "idiots" comment). I'm talking to anybody who wants to use hyperbole to make ideas look ridiculous, or to treat analogies as though they're concrete.

Exaggeration has its place, but it gets way out of hand in forums. I want to help improve the online experience, and I assume other players reading this thread feel similarly - especially if they feel strongly enough to post.

It confuses me when the people you'd expect to be your allies... aren't.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#24 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:52:41 PM(UTC)
hopefully forza 6 isn't so dumbed down and actually looks to please the motorsport fan instead of the casuals.
Rank: Racing Legend
#25 Posted : Wednesday, July 30, 2014 2:06:43 PM(UTC)
Sorry Prolacticus but do you really think that those players using other cars as brakes are doing it because they don't know how to play the game? There is a difference between locking up the brakes, missing a brake point and deliberate crashing. If you really think the first two are the main explanations then maybe the manual needs to have a section on how to recognise trolls.
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