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Rank: Driver's Permit
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#1 Posted : Sunday, April 25, 2021 7:28:42 AM(UTC)
Hey folks - what’s with all the rammers? I guess it’s easier to win that way, but racing is much more fun. Is this a racing game or demo derby? I guess if it’s meant to be played by running others off the road, I’ll find another admittedly much less varied and well-designed game. This has probably been covered before. <sigh>
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#2 Posted : Sunday, April 25, 2021 8:20:54 AM(UTC)
If it were intended to be played by ramming other players, I'd have no problem with that, it would be the same for everyone. The problem is that ramming isn't permitted, but the game doesn't do anything to enforce it, so when someone rams you, you aren't allowed to ram them back, but they most likely get away with it, even if you report them. A game having unenforced rules is just a totally flawed concept, IMO. There will never be the capacity for manual review to adequately enforce rules if the game itself doesn't enforce them (too expensive). So I prefer to play games where players are allowed to do anything the game lets them do.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#3 Posted : Sunday, April 25, 2021 9:22:18 AM(UTC)
It isn't permitted in the game, but the reason they don't enforce it is because they pass that responsibility if to Microsoft, who then passes it back to PGG. Me personal, I believe it's a PGG issue, their game, that should be the ones to enforce the rules they made.
Rank: Driver's Permit
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#4 Posted : Sunday, April 25, 2021 9:45:59 AM(UTC)
Well, after a morning of waiting 5-10 minutes between races, the thought of running someone into a tree seems like it might be a feelgood moment :)
Rank: Racing Permit
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#5 Posted : Sunday, April 25, 2021 10:45:55 AM(UTC)
Most people don't wanna race at all. I put out events and only 2-3 people accept and far fewer finish. Why don't people wanna win the Someday Cup or be part of my Midday Club races?! :(
Rank: Racing Permit
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#6 Posted : Monday, April 26, 2021 1:15:51 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FizgigMeep Go to Quoted Post
Well, after a morning of waiting 5-10 minutes between races, the thought of running someone into a tree seems like it might be a feelgood moment :)


I regularly run into trees fine on my own..don't need someone helping me!!

The "Feelgood" moment is always the one where someone tries to ram you into a tree and either mistimes it or you take avoiding action...they slam into the tree and you carry on completely unfazed. I always chuckle to myself when that happens (after making doubyly sure my mic is off of course).

The Rammers/people who can't drive/children are the reason I tend to avoid online besides The Trial and the obligatory monthly completion of online stuff. Seems like online behaviour has gotten worse over the past year (based on my limited experience online stuff)
Rank: Racing Permit
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#7 Posted : Monday, April 26, 2021 1:20:06 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PassionWagon69 Go to Quoted Post
Most people don't wanna race at all. I put out events and only 2-3 people accept and far fewer finish. Why don't people wanna win the Someday Cup or be part of my Midday Club races?! :(


I would say, at the moment, a lot of people simply won't bother due to the Disconnect issues...I will join someone's races/s every now and again if I see one and feel inclined but my recent track record is not good...if I recall the last 5 I have tried, I have only stayed connected once.

Personally, I am more inclined to join someone's race if it is a seasonal event as I presume they are having difficulties or simply want some help
Rank: Driver's Permit
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#8 Posted : Monday, April 26, 2021 2:51:40 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PurpleAlien420 Go to Quoted Post
It isn't permitted in the game, but the reason they don't enforce it is because they pass that responsibility if to Microsoft, who then passes it back to PGG. Me personal, I believe it's a PGG issue, their game, that should be the ones to enforce the rules they made.


I think the programmers have tried - we get a free 24 seconds or so at the start to get things straightened out - sometimes helps. If you go too fast you pass through the other car, rather than damaging it.

In my opinion the players should police themselves. Perhaps there are groups/clubs that play that way - no ramming. (I’m gonna check that out today.)
Rank: Racing Permit
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#9 Posted : Monday, April 26, 2021 3:03:49 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Nursemorph Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PassionWagon69 Go to Quoted Post
Most people don't wanna race at all. I put out events and only 2-3 people accept and far fewer finish. Why don't people wanna win the Someday Cup or be part of my Midday Club races?! :(


I would say, at the moment, a lot of people simply won't bother due to the Disconnect issues...I will join someone's races/s every now and again if I see one and feel inclined but my recent track record is not good...if I recall the last 5 I have tried, I have only stayed connected once.

Personally, I am more inclined to join someone's race if it is a seasonal event as I presume they are having difficulties or simply want some help


Ooh yeah. A favourite for seasonals is to do the boring weekly Forzathon car races pvp/co op to make them interesting and care more about the car :)
Rank: Driver's Permit
#10 Posted : Monday, April 26, 2021 9:56:14 AM(UTC)
Just curious where this rule is spelled out ? Can't recall seeing it. And not that it'll help having it to cite but, ya know, facts.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#11 Posted : Monday, April 26, 2021 2:33:20 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Dan Burns 1001 Go to Quoted Post
Just curious where this rule is spelled out ? Can't recall seeing it. And not that it'll help having it to cite but, ya know, facts.


The rule is in the Forza Enforcement Guidelines:

2. Unsportsmanlike Conduct

This category covers in-game conduct, especially in races. Going out of your way to intentionally cause wrecking in multiplayer races goes against the spirit of the game and can result in enforcement action. While the occasional drift tap or nudge is unavoidable, reckless or malicious driving can warrant enforcement action. This is enforced much more strictly in the Forza Motorsport series, but is enforceable in any Forza title.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#12 Posted : Monday, April 26, 2021 9:33:49 PM(UTC)
Cool. Thanks much Jezza14 !
Rank: Driver's Permit
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#13 Posted : Tuesday, April 27, 2021 2:52:45 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dan Burns 1001 Go to Quoted Post
Just curious where this rule is spelled out ? Can't recall seeing it. And not that it'll help having it to cite but, ya know, facts.


The rule is in the Forza Enforcement Guidelines:

2. Unsportsmanlike Conduct

This category covers in-game conduct, especially in races. Going out of your way to intentionally cause wrecking in multiplayer races goes against the spirit of the game and can result in enforcement action. While the occasional drift tap or nudge is unavoidable, reckless or malicious driving can warrant enforcement action. This is enforced much more strictly in the Forza Motorsport series, but is enforceable in any Forza title.


Thanks - very helpful. I wonder what % of players have read or seen this. I hadn’t. Wouldn’t be a bad idea for this to show up in players’ “Messages.” I’ve never reported anyone for it, but it’s way too common a tactic. Racing is much more fun. Using a wheel on street races works really well, except if you get rammed it’s pretty much over.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#14 Posted : Tuesday, April 27, 2021 6:50:45 AM(UTC)
A good racer let them pass if the opponents vehicle is faster.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#15 Posted : Tuesday, April 27, 2021 9:44:45 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: StrykerLTU Go to Quoted Post
A good racer let them pass if the opponents vehicle is faster.


Would be cool if that was the only issue.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#16 Posted : Tuesday, April 27, 2021 12:34:39 PM(UTC)
If FH players had something to loose when ramming they will be attentive to avoid it, it is the case on FH3 and it works, not 100% but still close to perfect compared to FH4 disaster.

There was a clear sign in the demo of FH4 with the angel perk allowing collision with no consequence, root of the fail. FH4 gameplay was designed in favor of collisions, narrow roads, walls designed for wall riding, straight starts with first turn perfect for corner bombing, etc, it was simply ... designed for it. The game's leader wanted it like this, he had removed free for all of the game, rivals was just closed to totally removed and online was about anything except one, racing, it was just not playable. Remember also that they did remove for several months the report player support form specifically for FH4 while it was kept for other forza.

The other giant fail of FH4 to me is ranked not considering the level of players. Ranked should have been the place where difficulty level takes place, one player should race only with people 1 level above and 1 level under, not all players mixed, doesn't work IRL, doesn't work in virtual world. The more you climb, the less collisions should be allowed and that collisions should be the only thing getting you negative points period. If collisions kills your climb, ramming is not a valuable strategy #something2loose ;).

Sooner or later future will tell us if FH continues down to carmaggeddon, improves or if it is simply the sad end of it.

Edited by user Tuesday, April 27, 2021 12:35:55 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
 2 users liked this post.
#17 Posted : Tuesday, April 27, 2021 12:43:39 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dan Burns 1001 Go to Quoted Post
Just curious where this rule is spelled out ? Can't recall seeing it. And not that it'll help having it to cite but, ya know, facts.


The rule is in the Forza Enforcement Guidelines:

2. Unsportsmanlike Conduct

This category covers in-game conduct, especially in races. Going out of your way to intentionally cause wrecking in multiplayer races goes against the spirit of the game and can result in enforcement action. While the occasional drift tap or nudge is unavoidable, reckless or malicious driving can warrant enforcement action. This is enforced much more strictly in the Forza Motorsport series, but is enforceable in any Forza title.


I remember a time I got banned for just mentionning something related to guidelines ... The simple fact of making a distinction between FM and FH regarding reckless and malicious driving says all the story.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#18 Posted : Thursday, April 29, 2021 12:27:53 PM(UTC)
Hello, I think that ramming is ok only when playing The Eliminator mode. I would say it can be recommended in some situations 😎. But The Eliminator is a very specific form of Racing.
That being said, in pure racing the question of is it ramming or is it rubbing is a neverending debate.

In the movie Days of Thunder
Cole Trickle: Well, this son of a b***h just slammed into me!
Harry Hogge : “No, no, he didn’t slam you, he didn’t bump you, he didn’t nudge you… he rubbed you. And rubbin, son, is racin’.”
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#19 Posted : Thursday, April 29, 2021 12:49:49 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Tilo38 Go to Quoted Post
If FH players had something to loose when ramming they will be attentive to avoid it, it is the case on FH3 and it works, not 100% but still close to perfect compared to FH4 disaster.

There was a clear sign in the demo of FH4 with the angel perk allowing collision with no consequence, root of the fail. FH4 gameplay was designed in favor of collisions, narrow roads, walls designed for wall riding, straight starts with first turn perfect for corner bombing, etc, it was simply ... designed for it. The game's leader wanted it like this, he had removed free for all of the game, rivals was just closed to totally removed and online was about anything except one, racing, it was just not playable. Remember also that they did remove for several months the report player support form specifically for FH4 while it was kept for other forza.

The other giant fail of FH4 to me is ranked not considering the level of players. Ranked should have been the place where difficulty level takes place, one player should race only with people 1 level above and 1 level under, not all players mixed, doesn't work IRL, doesn't work in virtual world. The more you climb, the less collisions should be allowed and that collisions should be the only thing getting you negative points period. If collisions kills your climb, ramming is not a valuable strategy #something2loose ;).

Sooner or later future will tell us if FH continues down to carmaggeddon, improves or if it is simply the sad end of it.


I also remember pointing that out. FH3 was nearly perfect for the online racing except people who stayed in last place collecting skill points could still win without ever crossing the finish line on each race before being timed out. I'd love if they brought that system back but make it mandatory to at least finish each race and also factor in finishing position, THAT could be an excellent system. Sprinkle in the wall penalty + the speed collision ghosting, it could seriously be flawless system.

Edited by user Thursday, April 29, 2021 12:50:30 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Forza junkie since FM2. Horizons are the break I need from the track.

FH4 and I have a volatile love/hate relationship 😑
Rank: Racing Permit
#20 Posted : Thursday, April 29, 2021 1:09:37 PM(UTC)
I don't wanna finish ahead of someone and lose because they drove worse than me. I don't mind rubbing and like the current system.. ramming is way less of an issue for me in this game than others. That's mad about skill points, though.. Imagine Lewis Hamilton finishing 1st at Monaco but taking third step on the podium because Max did a 360 and someone did a bunch of drift taps? 🤣 I'm glad I didn't play fh3 if that was the system.

Edited by user Thursday, April 29, 2021 1:12:35 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#21 Posted : Thursday, April 29, 2021 2:16:09 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DaReoCharmer Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Tilo38 Go to Quoted Post
If FH players had something to loose when ramming they will be attentive to avoid it, it is the case on FH3 and it works, not 100% but still close to perfect compared to FH4 disaster.

There was a clear sign in the demo of FH4 with the angel perk allowing collision with no consequence, root of the fail. FH4 gameplay was designed in favor of collisions, narrow roads, walls designed for wall riding, straight starts with first turn perfect for corner bombing, etc, it was simply ... designed for it. The game's leader wanted it like this, he had removed free for all of the game, rivals was just closed to totally removed and online was about anything except one, racing, it was just not playable. Remember also that they did remove for several months the report player support form specifically for FH4 while it was kept for other forza.

The other giant fail of FH4 to me is ranked not considering the level of players. Ranked should have been the place where difficulty level takes place, one player should race only with people 1 level above and 1 level under, not all players mixed, doesn't work IRL, doesn't work in virtual world. The more you climb, the less collisions should be allowed and that collisions should be the only thing getting you negative points period. If collisions kills your climb, ramming is not a valuable strategy #something2loose ;).

Sooner or later future will tell us if FH continues down to carmaggeddon, improves or if it is simply the sad end of it.


I also remember pointing that out. FH3 was nearly perfect for the online racing except people who stayed in last place collecting skill points could still win without ever crossing the finish line on each race before being timed out. I'd love if they brought that system back but make it mandatory to at least finish each race and also factor in finishing position, THAT could be an excellent system. Sprinkle in the wall penalty + the speed collision ghosting, it could seriously be flawless system.


The way i used to beat the drifters in FH3 in races was to get as much skill points as possible when we had to race to the next start point. It kinda levelled the field a bit because even though they didn't finish but racked up the points, i usually placed on the podium and the skill points racked up got me over the line. Quite a few of these type of racers generally quit when they seen me enter the lobby :)
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#22 Posted : Thursday, April 29, 2021 4:21:09 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Tilo38 Go to Quoted Post
"snip"

The other giant fail of FH4 to me is ranked not considering the level of players. Ranked should have been the place where difficulty level takes place, one player should race only with people 1 level above and 1 level under, not all players mixed, doesn't work IRL, doesn't work in virtual world. The more you climb, the less collisions should be allowed and that collisions should be the only thing getting you negative points period. If collisions kills your climb, ramming is not a valuable strategy #something2loose ;).

Sooner or later future will tell us if FH continues down to carmaggeddon, improves or if it is simply the sad end of it.


Adjusting for level wouldn't change nothing really. I'm a prestige 10 level 2375 or so, it would be extremely hard to find matches for me in ranked, or any other online racing in FH since very few people made it to that level legitimately.
As it is now, prestige 8 and 9 players still try and wreck me, and the prestige 1 and 2 are atrocious rammers, probably thinking there is some special social standing in wrecking and beating high level players. Also remember, a lot of high prestige players built it off running 50 lap races on longer tracks. They really don't know the standard tracks in the game as well as I do, I have never done more than 5 laps on any track in the game.
I have close to 40,000 races in the game and at this point, I simply drive for influence, the goal is to hit max level legitimately without having to run 50 lap races. I usually just let everyone run out front to smash into each other and pass the wreckage when I can. I've actually won races after giving everyone a 10 second headstart, just because they spend the entire race trying to wreck each other or don't know the tracks well enough to stay on the road.
I'm not out to prove I'm better than anyone else, I play for fun, so if letting everyone win to avoid the wreckers that's fine, I'm not letting tools ruin my fun.

They may have designed the game to ruin my enjoyment, but I don't have to play by their rules to still have fun. 😉
Rank: Racing Permit
#23 Posted : Thursday, April 29, 2021 6:52:46 PM(UTC)
haha at this point I'm redoing Gran Turismo 1 & 2 style events with solo, co-op and pvp races. Just with a Forza twist and lack of Mazda Demio and Pink Toyota Yaris 😄🥺 it's pretty cool when handy drivers show up though.
Rank: Racing Permit
#24 Posted : Friday, April 30, 2021 2:57:23 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PurpleAlien420 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Tilo38 Go to Quoted Post
"snip"

The other giant fail of FH4 to me is ranked not considering the level of players. Ranked should have been the place where difficulty level takes place, one player should race only with people 1 level above and 1 level under, not all players mixed, doesn't work IRL, doesn't work in virtual world. The more you climb, the less collisions should be allowed and that collisions should be the only thing getting you negative points period. If collisions kills your climb, ramming is not a valuable strategy #something2loose ;).

Sooner or later future will tell us if FH continues down to carmaggeddon, improves or if it is simply the sad end of it.


Adjusting for level wouldn't change nothing really. I'm a prestige 10 level 2375 or so, it would be extremely hard to find matches for me in ranked, or any other online racing in FH since very few people made it to that level legitimately.
As it is now, prestige 8 and 9 players still try and wreck me, and the prestige 1 and 2 are atrocious rammers, probably thinking there is some special social standing in wrecking and beating high level players. Also remember, a lot of high prestige players built it off running 50 lap races on longer tracks. They really don't know the standard tracks in the game as well as I do, I have never done more than 5 laps on any track in the game.
I have close to 40,000 races in the game and at this point, I simply drive for influence, the goal is to hit max level legitimately without having to run 50 lap races. I usually just let everyone run out front to smash into each other and pass the wreckage when I can. I've actually won races after giving everyone a 10 second headstart, just because they spend the entire race trying to wreck each other or don't know the tracks well enough to stay on the road.
I'm not out to prove I'm better than anyone else, I play for fun, so if letting everyone win to avoid the wreckers that's fine, I'm not letting tools ruin my fun.

They may have designed the game to ruin my enjoyment, but I don't have to play by their rules to still have fun. 😉


I think they were pointing to the Ranked levels being used rather than Prestige levels...so, for example, Grandmaster Players should be racing with other Grandmasters or Level 1 players...Level 15 players against level 16 and 14 etc. Of course, the issue would be the same, namaley having enough GM and L1 players around to race against,
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#25 Posted : Friday, April 30, 2021 4:02:16 AM(UTC)
Yeah, it wouldn’t work in FFA currently as you’d be waiting all day for a GM lobby. The only way to do it would be with arranged set times - so a complete change in process. Of course, it’s a flaw in the system generally that only a tiny proportion of players are ranked 1-5 in any event. It should be a lot more even distribution.

The problem of mixed lobbies is really only a points issue (I.e. for high ranked players you can legitimately lose points for winning of you get a low ranked lobby) rather than something to deal with ramming anyway. An average rammer will be very lucky to be able to ram someone high ranked - they’ll either be gone in the 25 second ghosted period or will just wait for the rammer to drift wide on a corner. There are very few high ranked players who are rammers. Those having problems with rammers will generally be the average player trying to improve cleanly.
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