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#1 Posted : Wednesday, September 9, 2020 12:49:06 AM(UTC)
Hi everyone,
I recently get a logitech G920 to have more fun on racing games, but I have to admit that I don't find good settings to have as much fun as playing with joypad on forza.

For example, with Abarth 131 on joypad, I do what I want with the car, with a rallye setup, I make some drifts, jumps, 180, winning races without any problems....
But with the wheel, testing all settings I could find on forums or youtube, this car became a total nightmare ! When I take some simples turns, it start drifting and I can't correct it until I brake and stop the car to go on the other way. I tried to modify sensibility, FFB, disable vibrations....

The only setting I couldn't find is the max rotations ( saw that some people talk about 900 and 540 ), maybe it's because I play on PC. I know I can set it with Ghub software but it can't detect forza so I have to use anoither logitech software to make it work and I can't set rotation on this one...

Some people talk about car settings to improve stability, but why I have no problems with joypad and so much difficulty with wheel ?

On others racing games I have no problems, the cars react perfectly with the settings I made, and I wish I could do the same on Forza.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#2 Posted : Thursday, September 10, 2020 7:22:31 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: a3r0n2144 Go to Quoted Post
Some people talk about car settings to improve stability, but why I have no problems with joypad and so much difficulty with wheel ?

The game has hidden stability assists when using controller or keyboard that aren't active when using a wheel. Some combinations of car and track are nigh on impossible with a wheel.

You can improve things to some extent with tuning, and also careful steering inputs to not turn the wheel too far (a problem which just doesn't exist if you use controller or keyboard), but many cars are just horrible for dirt or cross country with a wheel. For example, the new I-PACE, I tried to make it work, and even went to the extreme of ARBs 65/1 to try to solve the oversteer, but after tens of laps of frustration around the mudkickers track I gave up, as it was pure RNG luck whether it remained straight over the final bump. There's no way the real car will drive in the real world like it does in the game with a wheel, it would cause a huge number of accidents.
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#3 Posted : Thursday, September 10, 2020 10:49:57 AM(UTC)
With a wheel, you actually have the ability to drive the car. And, if the handling sucks on that specific car or tuneup, you'll know it. More often than not, the default setup is terrible. Hence, my suggestion is to find a tuner with wheel friendly setups. Once you have found a good setup, drive it. Then take some time to learn how to drive it faster and faster .

Finally, take some time to tune the cars to your liking. You will gain a whole new appreciation for this game. With practice, you'll come to appreciate the level of detail/feedback a wheel allows.

As for setting up wheel rotation, force feedback, etc., do not be afraid to post asking for a specific setup for your wheel. Many of the older setups no longer apply.

Edited by user Thursday, September 10, 2020 10:54:03 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#4 Posted : Thursday, September 10, 2020 11:21:31 AM(UTC)
When you slam the joystick to one side, or the other (in say a counter steer) you get an assist that basically maxes out the steering without you losing control. You can observe the effect in real time if you want. Just look at the front wheels of a car while going at different speeds. The game won't allow you to turn past a certain angle at certain speeds.

On a wheel, this assist is gone. No more perfect counter steers, no more nannying you when you're accelerating out of a corner. This game is way harder on a steering wheel.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#5 Posted : Thursday, September 10, 2020 4:58:43 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: TheWarmWind76 Go to Quoted Post
When you slam the joystick to one side, or the other (in say a counter steer) you get an assist that basically maxes out the steering without you losing control.

That's not the only assist, though, there's more going on that is only apparent over bumpy surfaces. On tarmac, the wheel is mostly fine, but on a bumpy surface I tried playing with the keyboard and it's night and day different to the wheel. The car just goes straight on if you only accelerate, then you press the key to turn one way, and it turns that way, you press the key to turn the other way and it turns the other way. It's so utterly different to driving with a wheel where it's shooting off in random directions over bumps, and unpredictably won't turn back the other way. I was very quickly able to average a significantly higher speed for a dirt speed zone driving with the keyboard compared to the wheel, because the car just goes left, right or straight ahead with none of the instability you have with a wheel. It's like the bumps have been removed from the terrain.
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#6 Posted : Friday, September 11, 2020 4:34:52 AM(UTC)
This is sort of a nice thing about Forza Horizon in particular....if you find the game too easy or repetitively dull after a time using the joypad, plug in a wheel and pedals....its an entirely different game.
You can get a decent workout and if you're into sliding through corners and always recovering those slides like a boss, well, you'll need to learn some skills to pull that off with a wheel.....
Rank: Driver's Permit
#7 Posted : Saturday, September 12, 2020 9:16:45 AM(UTC)
I know exactly what you mean.
When I switched from kb+m to the G920 I though it was useless.
At this point I played FH4 for about a month and had no problem winning on 'very experienced'.
But with the G920 I couldn't eben drive 10m in a straight line, let alone race or drift.
I spend ages searching the web for a 'working setting', spend even more time tinkering with all these values there.
And then I gave up and decided to just try it for few days. After a week I was driving as good as before.
Now I'm doing all my races on unbeatable. I've finished the pr stunt star card months ago (was the first one I completed) and have at least 2 stars in every drift zone (and I'm really, really bad at drifting, I hate it).
You simply need to train your muscle memory from scratch, that takes a while. And this time you need to learn how actually drive the car by yourself, instead of letting the game drive it for you (the cruder the input device, the more assist is there).

For the settings: I actually play with just 320° (set in ghub). This way I can achive maximum steering angle without changing grip on the wheel.
Oh, and do yourself a favor and switch to 'simulation steering' right away. On standard steering the game will 'correct' your steering in certain situations and this will mess with your reflexes.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#8 Posted : Sunday, September 13, 2020 8:57:09 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: breeminator Go to Quoted Post
It's like the bumps have been removed from the terrain.


*spits out Pepsi all over the tv screen* 😳
Every train needs a caboose, right?
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#9 Posted : Monday, September 14, 2020 8:51:21 AM(UTC)
One thing I'll say is that the source of difficulty is completely different when comparing keyboard vs wheel.

I can't do a rivals lap as fast with the keyboard as I can with the wheel. But my deficiencies are for completely different reasons with each.

With a wheel you have a fairly optimal input device, that lets you use your feet as well as your hands, and this makes it much easier to do things such as modulate brake and throttle at the same time as steering. What you're battling against with a wheel is the car and the game's physics. On dirt, you're driving over an incredibly rough and bumpy terrain that is constantly trying to send the car off course, and you have to constantly discern these forces and apply opposing inputs to keep everything on track. Everything happens at very high fidelity, and this is challenging, but it's the physics you're dealing with, the input device is intuitive and doesn't get in the way at all, you have a great connection between your brain and the game. There are some elements of the physics when using a wheel that I feel are fake difficulty, but it is what it is, and my point is that it's the physics you have to overcome, not the input device.

Using a keyboard, the fidelity is reduced to maybe 1/100th of what it is with a wheel. The terrain feels completely smooth because you have no force feedback, and the car mostly goes in a straight line, only affected by very large surface shapes rather than feeling every 1cm stone on the ground. The physics is incredibly simplified, and all the things you have to fight against with a wheel are just not there any more. You press a key to turn, and it turns. You let go and it straightens up. You don't lose grip by putting wheels on the grass like you do with a wheel, and so on. It's incredibly easy to keep the car under control with the keyboard. If it gets into a slide, you just press the opposite key, and it recovers. It's all extremely dumbed down, and would have to be described as an arcade game vs a sim with a wheel. BUT there is difficulty that isn't there with a wheel, in that it's hard to modulate different fingers at different rates. You emulate different amounts of throttle or steering by tapping the keys in a rhythm, and there is certainly an art to getting good at that, co-ordinating the different tap rates to modulate braking, steering and throttle, and also having to use fingers to change gear. You're not fighting against the physics, you're fighting against the input device. It's fake difficulty compared to driving a real car, but for different reasons to the fake difficulty when using a wheel.

There are no real race cars controlled with a keyboard, so I think we can safely say it's not a better input device than a wheel and pedals. If the physics was the same, keyboard players would simply lose to wheel players. So they try to adjust the physics in a way that cancels out the difficulty of the input device. This is, of course, pretty much impossibly hard to do, as you'd need to find the best wheel and keyboard players in the world and calibrate everything to make them do equal times on all surfaces and with all cars. I feel that as it stands, a wheel may give an advantage on tarmac, and a keyboard may give an advantage on dirt. I don't have a controller at the moment, but I have a record of times I did with a controller in the past, and I'm faster with a wheel on tarmac, but slower for dirt or cross country. Maybe they'll balance the different input devices better in FH5. I'd also like to see not just better balance, but less fake difficulty in the physics, i.e. dirt and cross country are currently simply absurdly hard with a wheel in an absolute sense, it's just not fun to drive them, so it should be made more realistic (easier) rather than making the keyboard and controller as frustrating as a wheel currently is on those surfaces.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#10 Posted : Monday, September 14, 2020 10:00:02 AM(UTC)
Wow, thank you for it! I was thinking many times how it's possible to be good on a keyboard because I play on a controller and it must be much better input device. Everything you wrote makes sense. Hmmm...

Offroad physics are overall bad so it's OK to not use it on a wheel. Dirt physics is completely off and cross country doesn't look real at all. But I love tarmac physics and handling in Horizon 4.
Rank: Driver's License
#11 Posted : Monday, September 14, 2020 1:52:54 PM(UTC)
I agree with most everything breeminator says except that I really enjoy both road AND dirt racing with a wheel. I find the wheel extremely limited in only three areas: 1) Free Roam, 2) Drifting events, and 3) on any track with a HUGE jump or water crossing that is likely to leave me bouncing or sliding the wrong way. For the rest, I personally think the wheel is the way to go. But, that does not necessarily mean I'll be able to keep up with the controllers on the same track. I simply race for the best time I can get and still draw enjoyment from it. I personally like to shoot for top 15% or as close as I can get to it.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#12 Posted : Monday, September 14, 2020 2:40:29 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FwyFlyer Go to Quoted Post
I agree with most everything breeminator says except that I really enjoy both road AND dirt racing with a wheel. I find the wheel extremely limited in only three areas: 1) Free Roam, 2) Drifting events, and 3) on any track with a HUGE jump or water crossing that is likely to leave me bouncing or sliding the wrong way. For the rest, I personally think the wheel is the way to go. But, that does not necessarily mean I'll be able to keep up with the controllers on the same track. I simply race for the best time I can get and still draw enjoyment from it. I personally like to shoot for top 15% or as close as I can get to it.

Bear in mind I'm aiming for the top few places. Some combinations are fine, e.g. my B700 world record with the Roadster on Lakehurst Woodland Scramble. But then S1 on Astmoor Rally Trail, I'm still in the top 1%, but I used to be able to go quite a few seconds quicker when I had a controller and I can tell where the problems are, and it's just frustrating knowing that it's the physics with a wheel that is causing problems that just aren't there with a controller. I'm 68th and Jezza is 2nd, whereas I can get much closer to him on tarmac. So it would be okay in isolation, I guess, if it weren't for the fact that I'm trying to compete against people who are using different input methods. It's trying to match a controller or keyboard ghost where you can see that their car can do things yours can't that causes the frustration. I might get myself another controller, but I'm reluctant because I feel an Elite controller is the way to go if using a controller, and they're not cheap, and it feels like the wrong way to go long term, it would just reduce my skill with the wheel and make it harder to play games with a wheel in the future.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#13 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2020 2:47:12 AM(UTC)
That's a good point, different leaderboards for different inputs. The same for drifting and AWD sliding. It's not problem for normal playing but very important for competitive level. I just don't care about wheel and keyboard users.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#14 Posted : Wednesday, September 16, 2020 6:31:37 AM(UTC)
Hey OP I've been there. I spent a stupid amount of money on a Fanatec CSL elite wheel and a cheap sim rig on the blind faith that the game would be more fun with a racing wheel. At first I was like you. I just couldn't compete with any difficulty above expert and was spinning out constantly with any RWD above A class. I admit feeling some serious buyers remorse and wondering if I was really having "fun". But I would just tell you to stick with it. Going from controller to wheel is like learning a new language. You just have to learn what the wheel is trying to tell you and react accordingly. I actually find the freeroam to be a great learning tool. Turn off the assists, start with normal steering and just throw yourself into it. Drive around, take a corner, fail, rewind, fail, rewind and on and on until you figure out WHY you failed and then you adjust. And treat the gas pedal differently than the trigger. Throttle control is super important especially in S1 and above. You'll get there. I went from peaking at pro difficulty with a controller to getting mad when I lose to unbeatable. And I play with sim steering no assists, manual with clutch. The only crutch I still use is traction control on S2 and up cars. And drifting still baffles me.
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#15 Posted : Wednesday, September 16, 2020 6:32:06 AM(UTC)
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Rank: A-Class Racing License
#20 Posted : Thursday, September 17, 2020 1:34:46 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SirFing Go to Quoted Post
You'll get there.

Well, I turned to the dark side today, and bought a controller. I couldn't resist the Elite clone that Argos in the UK is selling for £65.

Having only played driving games with a wheel for something like 18 months, it took me just 30 minutes to improve my FH3 monthly rivals time by 0.1 seconds, and the lap didn't feel even close to perfect. I had spent quite a lot of time doing the wheel performance, but it was just so much easier with the controller. 69th out of 11.5k entries on the leaderboard.

So I've never "got there" if getting there means being as fast with a wheel as a controller.

The only caveat is the car I was using for the FH3 rivals was RWD in the wet, and a bit of a handful. It's possible there are higher grip scenarios where maybe it won't be as easy to beat my wheel times, as the huge benefit of the controller for the RWD wet scenario is it's so much easier to control the loss of traction.

Also, I tried a FH4 danger sign with the keyboard the other day, and did a PB on my 3rd attempt. It's just crazy easy with a keyboard because the car just goes straight on, you just point it at the ramp and barely have to do anything but hold the accelerate key.
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#21 Posted : Friday, September 18, 2020 4:45:07 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: HossiTheHoss Go to Quoted Post
the cruder the input device, the more assist is there

After some more time with the controller, I totally agree with this. There is a profound difference between the physics for wheel, controller, and keyboard.

Keyboard is extremely simplified, it's an arcade game when played this way.

Controller is simplified relative to a wheel, but much more complex than keyboard. We might term it "simcade", in that it requires a higher rate of providing inputs than a keyboard and you have to do more things that relate to how a car is driven in real life. But it's still assisted, with the game interpreting your inputs more as a high level instruction that it does on your behalf, rather than you directly controlling the car. You see this most easily with drifting, where it seems to use the steering inputs to mean that you want to increase or decrease the angle you're drifting at, rather than relating to directly controlling the front wheels of the car. So the player tells the game "give me more angle", and the game takes care of the hard work of what has to be done to achieve that. That's not to say that the controller is OP relative to a wheel for lap times. You simply cannot steer as accurately as you can with a wheel, and the game does a reasonable job of making the assists about the right strength to cancel this out. It IS OP for drifting, though, compared to a wheel.

The wheel is the most complex, and when using a wheel, I feel the game can be broadly regarded as a sim. I have played other games that are generally regarded as sims, such as AC and ACC, and I cannot discern any major difference in how cars drive with a wheel in these games. If anything, I feel that all these games actually have fake difficulty compared to driving a real car, though I've never driven anything like a GT3 race car, for example, to know what that is like in real life. I have driven a Honda Civic Type R, and raced a go kart, and both those are very easy to drive in real life, it's very easy to feel when you're on the limit of grip in the real world because the unevenness of the road surface causes the car to start alternating between small losses of traction, and gripping. With experience you learn to relate this to the speed you're going at, and the g-force you can feel. You don't get any of this in a game, so it really needs to provide some assists to compensate for being unable to feel these things, and I think sims often don't really get this right.

I feel that the keyboard is over-assisted, in that I think if people practice a lot with it and become instinctive in mapping what their brain wants to achieve to what their fingers need to do, it might well be OP, as it provides a level of stability over bumpy terrain that is totally different to what you have with even a controller. There are no inputs the player can realistically provide with a controller or wheel to achieve the same stability. When I use a controller, I use it a lot like a keyboard anyway, tapping the stick in a binary fashion to module steering. I think if someone made a binary controller that presents as a keyboard, so the stick movements just send keypresses, it would be totally OP, as you'd have the super-assisted keyboard physics combined with the intuitive mapping of finger and thumb movements that you get with a controller. Even more OP would be a wheel and pedal set that has binary function and presents as a keyboard, as you'd get the benefit of moving throttle and brake use to the feet.

The controller gets the balance between input device awkwardness and level of assist approximately right. I tried it with the Jaguar I-PACE monthly rivals, and I think I did shave a bit off my wheel time, and the car is a LOT easier to drive with a controller than it is with a wheel, but ultimately it didn't result in me doing a much faster time. I'd expect the car to drive in real life much more like it drives with a controller rather than the wheel behaviour where it constantly tries to cause a fatal accident. With a controller, you can make it slide a bit, but it's a mild slide that only scrubs a little speed off, and it's easy to bring the car back. With a wheel it's extremely hard to steer the right amount to find the limit of grip, and very easy to cause a major slide that will scrub a lot of speed off, and it's very hard to bring the car back from it, it's much slower to get back to full traction. It isn't ultimately slower, because obviously my best lap with the wheel was one where I successfully avoided doing that at any point, but the difficulty of achieving that is much greater.

Overall, I feel that the 3 input methods are so different in the physics used that the leaderboards should show what each person used, and allow filtering by input method.

Incidentally, johniwanna streams on the Forza Twitch each Wednesday to try the game's new car out in rivals. The stream's title includes #wheelandpedalweds, but he uses a controller. I asked him why he wasn't using a wheel, and he said he's just much faster with a controller.
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#22 Posted : Friday, September 18, 2020 11:32:26 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: breeminator Go to Quoted Post

Overall, I feel that the 3 input methods are so different in the physics used that the leaderboards should show what each person used, and allow filtering.


This. Some of those leaderboard times seem impossibly fast. But I gotta hand it to controller users playing manual with clutch. Just needlessly difficult.
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#23 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2020 5:41:14 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SirFing Go to Quoted Post
This. Some of those leaderboard times seem impossibly fast. But I gotta hand it to controller users playing manual with clutch. Just needlessly difficult.

Honestly, manual with clutch is actually way easier with a controller than with a wheel. The controller remains stationary while playing, while the buttons and paddles on a wheel are a moving target. The paddles aren't too bad, because they're large and you can't hit the wrong thing, but trying to push a button for the clutch on a wheel while rapidly turning the wheel is a nightmare, and you can easily end up rewinding or hitting the handbrake by mistake.

I also feel the need to add this (not addressed at you, SirFing, rather to all readers of the thread)

If you've only ever used a keyboard, or only ever used a controller, you might struggle to appreciate what I said in my previous post. When I used a controller, I had a suspicion that it was assisted and somehow interpreting my intent and making that intent happen, rather than directly controlling the car, but I could never really nail down exactly what it was doing. It has taken me spending a lot of time using and getting good with a wheel to really get in tune with how the physics works in its least assisted form, to be in a position to then go back to the controller and have the ability to discern exactly how it differs. The number of people who use a wheel with FH4 will be relatively small, as not many people will want to spend the money, or will have the space, to use such a setup, and of the people who have used a wheel, there won't be many who are doing similar times to me. So you're not going to see large numbers of people saying what I said in the previous post because it's just never going to be something that a lot of people have experienced first hand for enough time to reach a good understanding of.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#24 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2020 6:24:13 AM(UTC)
@breeminator

This has been a fascinating and extremely informative read! Extraordinary detail. I didn't realize the wheel had the transmisson mapped to buttons on the wheel; I just assumed there would be a clutch/pedal and stick to go along with the setup...or can you have it set up either way? I've got really painful arthritis in my hands and was hoping something like using a wheel or even just a 3rd party controller with additional mappable buttons and/or a different unit size/shape and button placement would be a viable solution. It's really becoming quite a problem for me and the less I use my thumbs, the better.

The wheel difficulty you described with dirt racing, btw, make your efforts at the Lakehurst Scramble even more impressive, for sure! 🏆

Edited by user Saturday, September 19, 2020 6:27:39 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Every train needs a caboose, right?
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#25 Posted : Saturday, September 19, 2020 6:53:49 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Squryl Go to Quoted Post
I didn't realize the wheel had the transmisson mapped to buttons on the wheel; I just assumed there would be a clutch/pedal and stick to go along with the setup...or can you have it set up either way? I've got really painful arthritis in my hands and was hoping something like using a wheel or even just a 3rd party controller with additional mappable buttons and/or a different unit size/shape and button placement would be a viable solution. It's really becoming quite a problem for me and the less I use my thumbs, the better.

The wheel difficulty you described with dirt racing, btw, make your efforts at the Lakehurst Scramble even more impressive, for sure! 🏆

With the wheel I have, I have two pedals and use left foot braking, so my feet never change pedals. It has paddle shifters, which are great, but for clutch I have to press the Y button with my right thumb (it's a Fanatec wheel that has buttons that match the Xbox controller buttons). You can indeed have a clutch pedal if you want, but then you'd have the disadvantage of it being a long travel pedal, and you'd have to use right foot braking if you want to shift while braking. You can also use a gearstick if you want, I'm not sure if FH4 supports a pattern shifter that lets you directly go from any gear to any other gear. Pattern shifters are actually prohibited for ranked play in GTS because they give a competitive advantage. Overall, I feel paddle shifters are better than having to take your hand off to use a gearstick, and that's why race cars all use them. With a controller, the Elite-style controllers that have paddles underneath are definitely nicer for manual shifting than a standard controller, and the trigger lock is very helpful for braking (it's totally OP compared to pedals, as the pedals are more like a normal controller trigger for difficulty of judging the right amount of braking but with the disadvantage of no vibration feedback). If your thumbs are giving you trouble, then a wheel can quite possibly help, and you can reduce the force feedback if the force you need to apply is a problem. You can mostly get by without using a clutch if you limit yourself to cars that work well with manual, avoiding cars like the EB110. For manual, the wheel paddle shifters divert slightly less brainpower away from driving vs controller buttons/paddles IME.

The roadster on Lakehurst Scramble is fine with a wheel. The only bit that is a bit tricky is the section where you start going downhill and go right-left-right, it's easy to steer too much and de-stabilise the car. But I managed to work out the straightest line and amount of steering to do it fairly consistently, there wasn't much unpredictable randomness like there is with some car/track combinations.

Oh, and FN might be interested to hear that when using a controller, I quite often missed checkpoints by going on the inside of them, i.e. I'm not used to the rapid turn-in you get with a controller after turning in more gently with a wheel for so long.
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