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Rank: A-Class Racing License
#26 Posted : Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:43:58 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Captain Nemo999 Go to Quoted Post
Hello all: Newbie here (in my 7th week) . Just wanted to say I am enjoying the game (playing on a Windows Gaming PC with keyboard). Now entering my 77th year, so the game is fun and expansive, but currently somewhat overwhelming for this old bugger.
My biggest issue, so far, is when I get beat by certain cars, and I check on their availability, I often find they were available in an earlier Weekly Special Event or Challenge. Do these cars get added to Wheelspin or become Special Awards later?
If I have posted in the wrong sub-forum, please enlighten me. With some guidance from the the Forum's Jedi Masters, I am confident I will learn to post correctly and intelligently in the future.

Cheers, Captain Nemo.


I guess it's a recurring feedback from people joining therefore having its place here. Nevertheless, if you want answers/discuss this topic further I guess the good place would be https://forums.forzamoto...not-in-the-Autoshow.aspx


Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#27 Posted : Thursday, August 27, 2020 9:02:52 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Clutch Nixon177 Go to Quoted Post


But he said that GT Sports doesn't need such tricks to attract players. Well, apparently it does. I also remember that in Gran Turismo 5 you didn't have access to all cars immediately. There was a used car dealership that switched through it's offered cars every two weeks and all of them were unique and not available in the standard car store. So if you missed out one rotation of the shop, there was no guarantee that the offered cars would appear ever again. And due to that circumstance, I've missed some cars. Did I complain about it? No, I just moved on because GT 5, just like Forza, offered enough other cars to drive.

Also Sony could open their own store on Windows/Linux to offer their games for PC gamers, but instead they insist you to buy their hardware unlike Micorosoft.


It sounds like you're still confusing what Forza is doing with its exclusive cars with normal game progression and platform exclusivity. Platform exclusivity is a pain for consumers, but developing a game for multiple platforms does take real time and effort. If a platform owner is bankrolling game development, they can choose whether or not its in their interest to spend the extra money to develop it to be saleable on other platforms, especially if they have to pay platform royalties (most platforms take a 30% cut). Bringing Forza to PC was a huge amount of work by MS, I'm glad they did, but FH3 at launch was pretty buggy on PC. Developing for PC is significantly more difficult than for console with all the hardware configurations that need to be supported.

In terms of opening an online store, that's even vastly more work and expense than just porting a game and taking the 30% cut. Yes, Sony could open their own online store. But it's disingenuous to suggest that it's an easy task, especially since the PS4 is still selling just fine.

Anyways, back to the core topic here, if you went out and found a used copy of GT5 right now and started a new game, you could still get all the cars. You might have to spend a fair bit of time in the used car dealer due to randomness, but there's nothing preventing you from accessing that content (and if I remember right, cars in there showed up on specific days of the week so with a guide you could still get your desired car without too much trouble). Not having all cars available up-front in a car game is pretty normal, but in most games there's always a way to unlock them regardless of how long since launch it's been, and even if the game is completely unsupported.

Contrast that to Forza. FH3 is still actively being sold, but due to the time gated exclusivity, those exclusive cars are simply not available to new players period and haven't been for a long time. Given the way things are going with FH4, I fully expect that to be the fate of the excessive number of exclusive cars in this game as well (which is why I speak up about this with the hope that the devs will listen). This is the problem with how Forza is doing it. If the devs want to make players "earn" their new cars via challenges that's fine, but to arbitrarily deny players the ability to obtain cars simply because they missed playing a week is an issue.

Another way to resolve this would be to let players go back and replay old playlists to get the rewards if they haven't obtained them already if simply giving out cars for free each week bothers players who feel like they have to "earn" everything or it has no value (not that the current lackluster playlist challenges make me feel like I've really earned anything).

Edited by user Thursday, August 27, 2020 9:19:55 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#28 Posted : Thursday, August 27, 2020 10:44:49 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Clutch Nixon177 Go to Quoted Post
But he said that GT Sports doesn't need such tricks to attract players. Well, apparently it does.

The "such tricks" was cars only being able to be obtained during specific periods of time. It doesn't have that.

In GTS, you can compete in the FIA manufacturer series, and you don't even have to buy the cars you race with, you get them provided when you sign with a manufacturer. Someone can buy the game today, getting on towards 3 years after launch, and compete on a level playing field against people who bought it when it was first released. They don't even need to spend time earning credits to buy cars to race in the manufacturer series, they can just run the game up, pick a manufacturer and get started.

I don't know why people feel the need to resort to disingenuous arguments such as GTS having cars that aren't in other games. That has nothing to do with whether or not the game's competitive environment is a level playing field.

Ironically, FH4 gets it right with Eliminator. People can buy FH4, start playing Eliminator, and it's a level playing field. But it should be the same for the ranked gameplay modes.
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#29 Posted : Thursday, August 27, 2020 11:34:17 AM(UTC)
I agree with the OP on the forced play to get new cars that may never come back around again. Why not have the Forzathons available to play them when you want?

I still miss the old XP system of online adventure. This system is what made the Horizon series different from all other racing games. Now that it's gone I have no reason to play the game.
If you could go ahead and take out all the things I loved about Horizon, that would be great.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#30 Posted : Thursday, August 27, 2020 12:37:33 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: breeminator Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Clutch Nixon177 Go to Quoted Post
But he said that GT Sports doesn't need such tricks to attract players. Well, apparently it does.

The "such tricks" was cars only being able to be obtained during specific periods of time. It doesn't have that.

In GTS, you can compete in the FIA manufacturer series, and you don't even have to buy the cars you race with, you get them provided when you sign with a manufacturer. Someone can buy the game today, getting on towards 3 years after launch, and compete on a level playing field against people who bought it when it was first released. They don't even need to spend time earning credits to buy cars to race in the manufacturer series, they can just run the game up, pick a manufacturer and get started.

I don't know why people feel the need to resort to disingenuous arguments such as GTS having cars that aren't in other games. That has nothing to do with whether or not the game's competitive environment is a level playing field.

Ironically, FH4 gets it right with Eliminator. People can buy FH4, start playing Eliminator, and it's a level playing field. But it should be the same for the ranked gameplay modes.


If I had to bet on what big change will come in next episode I would rather bet on removal of tuning feature.

Up to me, all cars should have a price that could be much more than 20M, just a price like 50M or more depending on car so that the players have the choice, wait for the opportunity of a playlist or go for the challenge of getting those CR. Just like playlist can be "completed" either doing a lot of online or not doing any, two ways. We need two ways to get the cars, easy lucky one or bit more difficult one. Third could be buying, which is also acceptable to me as long as not associated to pay2win cars and the two other ways are available. Having cars directly without buying them, ok, but it should be rental, therefore default tune and default liveries.
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#31 Posted : Thursday, August 27, 2020 10:13:22 PM(UTC)
Hello all: I'm a 78 year old woman and I love playing Forza Horizon 4 so far. It distracts an old bugger like me from having sad thoughts.
Don't get what the fuss is all about. I personally enjoy doing the tasks every thursday and collecting all the new cars that are being introduced to the game. It's always something to look forward to every week, isn't it? And I really don't mind how the car rewards are being handled right now.
Maybe the young folks should hitch up their knickers and start looking for thair desired cars instead of complaining about the system.
Some people just remind me of my grandson, who always likes to carp at everything instead of getting a job and making his life better.
Oops sorry I'm gettign carried away with my thoughts again.

Cheers, your beloved NitroDva7800!
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#32 Posted : Friday, August 28, 2020 12:08:21 AM(UTC)
Let's be real here.

There are people who defend the current model of the game as if their life depended on it. Sometimes I really believe they take offense at the criticism.

To these people, look what's happening to the game before defending a decaying feature so much.

The original Playlist plan was 50%/100% rewards each season and overall. Events list was as follows:

- 4-step Forzathon
- 7 Daily Forzathons
- 1 Trial (win requirement)
- 1 PGG (win requirement)
- 3 PR Stunts
- 3 Championships
- Monthly Rivals
- Ranked OA qualification (10 Adventures for unranked players)

Since then we've seen the following changes:

- 100% completion nerfed to 80% (two weeks after introduction)
- 80% requirement only for returning cars
- Seasonal Showcase
- Horizon Promo
- Trial and PGG only give returning cars as prizes
- PGG "win requirement" eliminated
- Ranked requirement lowered to 1 OA for all players
- New cars mostly tied to Championships rather than 50% seasonal/monthly completion

Winning these cars has never been easier in FH4. However, it doesn't prove the Playlist is an ok feature. Quite the contrary: it had to be made the easiest possible to make people play.

To Playground's credit, they removed much of the hassle associated with the Playlist. But, in the process, they never addressed why the Playlist is so boring to play in the first place: the events suck! And now they're even repeating events. I refuse to believe the pandemic is preventing them from having new ideas for championships you create in 5 minutes.

They didn't do this to suit me, or other critics, but the mass of people who would actually rather buy the car from other players in the AH instead of doing the events. They have analytics for that. Ironically enough I suspect that, prior to January this year, they weren't interpreting the analytics correctly! That's why we got the Eliminator, which is, well, dead.

Not to bring back an old subject, and not to slam anyone, but our old liaison used to play Fortnite and Apex Legends in-between her FH4 sessions and I can't help but think she may have been part of a larger group in the studio who were trying to push their vision of the game at any cost, not realizing what the fans wanted. You don't change staff when things are going well.

Edited by user Friday, August 28, 2020 12:16:13 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#33 Posted : Friday, August 28, 2020 2:40:41 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
Let's be real here.

There are people who defend the current model of the game as if their life depended on it.


I'm not hijacking every thread to whine about the evil Forza playlist and their (never ever reutrning) reward cars, which is simply not ture.

Also this is a discussion board to discuss things, don't expect everyone to agree with you.
Rank: Driver's License
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#34 Posted : Friday, August 28, 2020 2:49:06 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
You don't change staff when things are going well.


Well there are concepts like job rotation and generally people may strive for new challenges so that isn't entirely true.

One of my biggest gripes with the game or rather the franchise as a whole has already been mentioned by Jezza: engagement with the community is rather poor and lacking. I've always been feeling that ever since picking up FM6 and if anything I'd say it's gotten worse.

Other than that, I also have the feeling that FH4 has become a game that is focused more on collecting cars than actually racing them. This point does apply to FM7 as well - there is an absolute abundance of cars but no real incentive to ever take them out on a circuit. Racing at its core is somewhat boring: offline due to the subpar AI and little rewards, online due to some of the game's mechanics like wall riding and much of the foul play in the leagues as well as having to play all race types (dirt, cc, road, street scene) in the leagues instead of separating leagues.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#35 Posted : Friday, August 28, 2020 6:27:07 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NitroDva7800 Go to Quoted Post
Hello all: I'm a 78 year old woman and I love playing Forza Horizon 4 so far. It distracts an old bugger like me from having sad thoughts.
Don't get what the fuss is all about. I personally enjoy doing the tasks every thursday and collecting all the new cars that are being introduced to the game. It's always something to look forward to every week, isn't it? And I really don't mind how the car rewards are being handled right now.
Maybe the young folks should hitch up their knickers and start looking for thair desired cars instead of complaining about the system.
Some people just remind me of my grandson, who always likes to carp at everything instead of getting a job and making his life better.
Oops sorry I'm gettign carried away with my thoughts again.

Cheers, your beloved NitroDva7800!

My evil twin! *high five*

Happy to be important enough for you to create a fake to attack me. It's quite flattering, actually. ;)

Originally Posted by: Clutch Nixon177 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
Let's be real here.

There are people who defend the current model of the game as if their life depended on it.

I'm not hijacking every thread to whine about the evil Forza playlist and their (never ever reutrning) reward cars, which is simply not ture.

Also this is a discussion board to discuss things, don't expect everyone to agree with you.


Well, I'm not hijacking anything, NitroDva. My views are very close to the TC's arguments. If there's anyone hijacking anything here... it's you.

Edited by user Friday, August 28, 2020 6:31:31 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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26/05/1923 - 17/06/2018
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#36 Posted : Friday, August 28, 2020 6:53:52 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NitroDva7800 Go to Quoted Post
Don't get what the fuss is all about. I personally enjoy doing the tasks every thursday

So because you personally enjoy that, you can't understand why everyone else isn't just the same as you?

I quite enjoy spending an hour trying to do the best time I can for a rivals event, but I wouldn't be in favour of the game requiring everyone to do that once a week, because unlike you, I am able to grasp that not everyone enjoys the same things I do.
Rank: Racing Legend
#37 Posted : Friday, August 28, 2020 9:39:24 PM(UTC)
looks like the same few people would rather pay real money for the added dlc cars rather than play the game for 1 hour a week to obtain them

i know what i prefer

if you miss car pay the 20 mill in auction house if you need
it's not as if credits are hard to come by in fh4
easiest forza ever for credits other than fm6
Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#38 Posted : Saturday, August 29, 2020 6:57:14 AM(UTC)
It's interesting how anytime someone comes out with valid criticism about the game, especially regarding vehicle exclusivity, without fail players come out of the woodwork to defend the game and the devs using ad hominem attacks to dismiss the criticism as whining from entitled brats who need to go get a real job. Yes, there are occasionally whiners, but the vast majority of the criticism on these issues comes from well-spoken players and is generally presented in a logical way, and from looking at their post history appear to be predominantly older players who do have a life outside of the game, and are sick of industry trends like this with games as a service and using timed exclusivity and other cheap tricks like the wheelspins (lootboxes by another name) to "improve player engagement".

Go watch the latest Forza Monthly. Mike Brown specifically said that players praising the game are great and all, but what he really values is constructive criticism that points out issues with the game and potential solutions so they can make it better. Dismissing this criticism and blindly defending the devs and attacking players who don't agree as if everything they do is perfect is counterproductive and makes for a toxic forum, and actively goes against what Mike Brown clearly stated is most helpful to him in actually improving the game.

That's why I created this thread in the first place. Mike Brown called for constructive criticism, I gave mine on the biggest issue I see in the game right now. If you have constructive criticism of the game feel free to post it here and even engage in a civil debate with others if you have a better idea of how it could be improved. Even just saying that you like the game as-is, and this is why is fine, but putting down others because you don't agree with them isn't really appropriate anywhere.
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#39 Posted : Saturday, August 29, 2020 10:49:35 AM(UTC)
It’s funny how someone is going out of their way to create two fake shill accounts, and there’s only one regular forum member actively defending the playlist.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#40 Posted : Saturday, August 29, 2020 10:59:28 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: talby71 Go to Quoted Post
looks like the same few people would rather pay real money for the added dlc cars rather than play the game for 1 hour a week to obtain them

i know what i prefer

if you miss car pay the 20 mill in auction house if you need
it's not as if credits are hard to come by in fh4
easiest forza ever for credits other than fm6


I need to work two hours in order to afford the car pass with no discount. So yeah, I’d rather pay for the quantity of four car passes since that sould save dozens of hours if I had to grind out for all exclusive cars

Plus the fact that I would get a 75% discount at some point means I’d only have to work two hours for 196 cars (I’d pay for one car pass basically). With the playlist, I would have to spend 2 hours for much less.

Edited by user Saturday, August 29, 2020 11:06:30 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
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#41 Posted : Saturday, August 29, 2020 1:02:05 PM(UTC)
Just out of interest, if you did not have the exclusive, time limited cars, and instead could just get everything whenever you wanted, and given that the game is now fairly long in the tooth, how may of you would come back and play as frequently as you do, and how many of you might go a month or so without playing?
Rank: Driver's Permit
#42 Posted : Saturday, August 29, 2020 1:03:30 PM(UTC)
............................and why do I show up as Tier 5 when everyone else is Tier 4?
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#43 Posted : Saturday, August 29, 2020 1:54:45 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MetalGibbon553 Go to Quoted Post
Just out of interest, if you did not have the exclusive, time limited cars, and instead could just get everything whenever you wanted, and given that the game is now fairly long in the tooth, how may of you would come back and play as frequently as you do, and how many of you might go a month or so without playing?

I think this is looking at it all from the wrong perspective. If they wanted to me to play the game a LOT more, what they need to do is simple:
1. Have a tarmac only option for FFA ranked adventure.
2. Have ghosting from start to finish for FFA ranked adventure, or as a minimum extend the current ghosted period for longer so you can't get taken out in the 2nd major braking zone.

With those two changes, it would become the best racing game on the market, in terms of my personal preferences.

So yes, if they make a game that people don't hugely want to play for any other reason, making people do chores to unlock new cars might get them a bit more activity. But wouldn't it be better to get a lot more activity by making a game that people want to play because they enjoy playing it?

I've already suggested they could still drip feed new cars in, but make them available in the autoshow, so people have a new car to try out each week. Yes, people could then wait a month if they wanted, and try out 4 new cars at once, but then we're back to the question of why isn't the gameplay itself appealing enough for them to choose to play more often?
Rank: R-Class Racing License
#44 Posted : Saturday, August 29, 2020 5:19:02 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MetalGibbon553 Go to Quoted Post
............................and why do I show up as Tier 5 when everyone else is Tier 4?


It has been messed up forever with showing the corrrect tier. Sometimes it is right.

Edited by user Saturday, August 29, 2020 5:21:46 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#45 Posted : Saturday, August 29, 2020 8:51:15 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: CriminalM1ndz Go to Quoted Post
imagine writing a novel yet its all about cars in a garage not the gameplay....... no mention of rammers in ranked lobbies, no mention on bans for using a imagine the devs have in-game... all I see is i couldn't get this car "crying like a child"


You're free to add constructively to this discussion and provide constructive criticism on those gameplay issues that are important to you. I'm not sure where you got the impression that there's any whining and complaining going on, those of us who don't like the exclusive car system have clearly stated why we see it as an issue (and at least in my case, I do have all the cars). No need to put down others because we have different opinions about the game than you.

Edited by user Saturday, August 29, 2020 8:52:24 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#46 Posted : Saturday, August 29, 2020 8:59:51 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MetalGibbon553 Go to Quoted Post
Just out of interest, if you did not have the exclusive, time limited cars, and instead could just get everything whenever you wanted, and given that the game is now fairly long in the tooth, how may of you would come back and play as frequently as you do, and how many of you might go a month or so without playing?


June and July over here were spent the following way:

- Red Dead Redemption 2
- Play 30 minutes of FH4 every week, rushing the list to go back to RDR2 as quickly as possible

So FH4 wasn't something I played when I felt like. It was a thorn on the side. A chore. Gaming is not supposed to be a chore. What I wanted to play was RDR2.

It's also an old game now, past its prime, and new cars don't wow me like they used to, especially when Playground decides to screw them over for some reason (I cry every time I drive the 2000GT, it sounds so bad). Besides, they don't update the game in the direction I want.

So I only come back to FH4 when I'm not in the middle of playing anything more interesting. That's too little.
R.I.P. 24 Heures du Mans

26/05/1923 - 17/06/2018
Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#47 Posted : Saturday, August 29, 2020 9:26:14 PM(UTC)
A bit more constructive feedback on how things can be improved that's also unrelated to my original topic on exclusive cars.

I'm trying to think of relatively small features that could reasonably be added to the game that (at least from my perspective) likely wouldn't take too much dev time since feature existed in FH3 or already exists in some form in FH4. Here's a short list I've come up with:

1. Bring back player-made custom championships like we had in FH3, and the ability to blueprint and share them. Would be nice if they also could include custom routes, and championship rules like preventing players from changing cars between races.

2. Bring back custom bucket lists from FH3

3. Allow players to choose custom seasons and time of day when in offline mode. The game already has the mechanism to set date and time for events, hooking it into a freeroam UI seems like a relatively easy task.

4. Complement Forzathon Live with rotating offline supported Forzathon races that change every hour. Series type (road, dirt street, etc), routes and class could be chosen using similar logic to the ranked adventure to provide nearly unlimited randomized championships that players without Xbox Live Gold or good internet (or players who simply don't enjoy playing online) could enjoy. These would award credits and Forzathon points.

5. Upgrade Forzathon Shop to feature many more cars and clothing items each week. Have a few headline items that stay the same all week like we do now, but add daily 24 hour "flash sales" so that many more vehicles and items can be featured. Also improve coordination with store listings, there's been far too many weeks of just plain bad content in the store, like nobody communicated or planned within the dev team on what would be listed so cheap autoshow cars were featured at ripoff prices if you looked at how long it would take to earn that much FP vs buying the car in the autoshow. There's an enormous number of exclusive cars in the game already, and plenty of actually expensive vehicles, make sure to feature those. I still would prefer to see this exclusive content made easily accessible to all players, but if just adding everything to the autoshow cheapens it too much, at least feature it regularly on the shop instead of week after week wasting slots on autoshow cars.
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#48 Posted : Saturday, August 29, 2020 10:45:07 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: gamer1000k Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CriminalM1ndz Go to Quoted Post
imagine writing a novel yet its all about cars in a garage not the gameplay....... no mention of rammers in ranked lobbies, no mention on bans for using a imagine the devs have in-game... all I see is i couldn't get this car "crying like a child"


You're free to add constructively to this discussion and provide constructive criticism on those gameplay issues that are important to you. I'm not sure where you got the impression that there's any whining and complaining going on, those of us who don't like the exclusive car system have clearly stated why we see it as an issue (and at least in my case, I do have all the cars). No need to put down others because we have different opinions about the game than you.


You can try to dress it up any way you want, it's just another thread for you to whinge about exclusive cars.
Give it a rest, the horse is dead.
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#49 Posted : Sunday, August 30, 2020 12:20:14 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Kranktus Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: gamer1000k Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CriminalM1ndz Go to Quoted Post
imagine writing a novel yet its all about cars in a garage not the gameplay....... no mention of rammers in ranked lobbies, no mention on bans for using a imagine the devs have in-game... all I see is i couldn't get this car "crying like a child"


You're free to add constructively to this discussion and provide constructive criticism on those gameplay issues that are important to you. I'm not sure where you got the impression that there's any whining and complaining going on, those of us who don't like the exclusive car system have clearly stated why we see it as an issue (and at least in my case, I do have all the cars). No need to put down others because we have different opinions about the game than you.


You can try to dress it up any way you want, it's just another thread for you to whinge about exclusive cars.
Give it a rest, the horse is dead.


You can try to dress it up any way you want, yours is just another post for you to whinge about people who criticize things about the game.
Give it a rest, just accept there's people who don't think this game is God's gift to mankind.
R.I.P. 24 Heures du Mans

26/05/1923 - 17/06/2018
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#50 Posted : Sunday, August 30, 2020 12:40:09 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Kranktus Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: gamer1000k Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CriminalM1ndz Go to Quoted Post
imagine writing a novel yet its all about cars in a garage not the gameplay....... no mention of rammers in ranked lobbies, no mention on bans for using a imagine the devs have in-game... all I see is i couldn't get this car "crying like a child"


You're free to add constructively to this discussion and provide constructive criticism on those gameplay issues that are important to you. I'm not sure where you got the impression that there's any whining and complaining going on, those of us who don't like the exclusive car system have clearly stated why we see it as an issue (and at least in my case, I do have all the cars). No need to put down others because we have different opinions about the game than you.


You can try to dress it up any way you want, it's just another thread for you to whinge about exclusive cars.
Give it a rest, the horse is dead.


You can try to dress it up any way you want, yours is just another post for you to whinge about people who criticize things about the game.
Give it a rest, just accept there's people who don't think this game is God's gift to mankind.


Is that the best you can come up with?
Tell me what has been changed due to your constant whingeing?
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