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Rank: Racing Permit
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#1 Posted : Friday, August 21, 2020 4:12:30 PM(UTC)
I think this is going to be highly controversial, but in my opinion, new players should be less of a focus for the new Motorsport game, and it should just cater mostly to the original Forza fans. I am one of them, and having played Forza since February 2010, I think its safe to say that original Forza fans at least started out on the 360 titles or earlier. If we bring in new players, particularly to this next Motorsport game, that it will be a bad idea. This is due to the fact that if new players' first Forza game is the next Motorsport, they won't know how to drive and will end up just ramming in multiplayer.

Turn 10, please focus on the veterans for Motorsport, and take the noobs who suck at driving over to Forza Horizon 4. Since FM5 the games have just been half-finished cash grabs with an emphasis on quantity over quality, and I'm hoping that the next Forza game reverses that current business strategy which has plagued Forza for years.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#2 Posted : Saturday, August 22, 2020 4:28:16 PM(UTC)
Pretty strange request. What exactly constitutes a "veteran" forza player, someone who played 1 past game or someone who's played 7? Also considering the depth of features forza has endowed its games with which players count more, single player career players or freeplay, multi-player hopper players or drifters or drag racers or tag players, or the players who almost exclusively tuned cars or painted them but never really raced them other than to gain money to buy those cars.

If any developer didnt focus on gaining new players their game would never sell. There are certainly a few design decisions that didn't really pan out in the last few games, most recently forza 7s focus on car and racing suit collecting rather than focusing on racing or at least improving the features I named above. The content and features in Forza are its biggest weakness as well as its biggest strength. They've painted themselves in a corner so to speak because what features do you choose to focus on without disappointing people who like the ones that they're not.

Its easy to sit here and say as a "racer" that they shouldn't bother with drifters or painters because I don't like doing those things, but there's thousands of players who do. Right now no one knows what direction they're going to choose, nor will any of these posts sway that direction. Going by the trend other racing games are on right now with driver ratings and what not i could only assume turn 10 would be doing something similar, but who knows i thought forza 7 was supposed to have this and they ended up not implementing it.
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#3 Posted : Saturday, August 22, 2020 4:29:28 PM(UTC)
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Edited by user Saturday, August 22, 2020 4:31:13 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#4 Posted : Saturday, August 22, 2020 4:29:29 PM(UTC)
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Edited by user Saturday, August 22, 2020 4:31:31 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#5 Posted : Saturday, August 22, 2020 4:29:41 PM(UTC)
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Edited by user Saturday, August 22, 2020 4:30:52 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#6 Posted : Saturday, August 22, 2020 5:47:05 PM(UTC)
I don’t think they should build a game around a model designed to retain old customers at the expense of building a larger player base. What they need to do IMO is make playing the game in a clean and responsible way rewarding. Maybe encourage clean racing by upping the credit rewards based on time spent driving cleanly and avoiding contact during the race. Institute a licensing system like in gran turismo to teach fundamentals before dropping players in powerful cars. Change how good passes are counted by space given (not by closeness to passed car) and not passing in the dive bomb zone before a corner.

There is no reason to shy away from bringing new players into the fold. If the game is built around rewarding good behavior, showing new players proper racing procedures, and penalizing glaring offenses then the community will be better for it. Even restructuring races so that coming in first is not the only goal can help. For instance, requiring a pit stop in every race or picking a player or AI in the grid that is slightly better than you and marking them as a rival (they might not be the fastest but if you beat them you get a reward) could resolve many issues. If the only reward given is for winning there can only be one winner.
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#7 Posted : Saturday, August 22, 2020 6:07:56 PM(UTC)
I think efforts to keep players out of the game would run contrary to Alan Hartman's work toward accessibility and inclusiveness. The history of Forza has shown an interest in layering assists so that all skill levels can find the game enjoyable and challenging.

Forza is a game that benefits from a broader player base because it provides a distribution of leaderboard times that makes incremental improvements in Rivals and multiplayer racing more fun. More players means more shared livery designs, tuning files, photos, replays, uploaded video content, and livestreams.

I don't know how Game Pass affects Turn 10's revenues, but from a business perspective I would expect that the larger the player base, the more resources the developers would have to devote to assets and features the player base wants, including elites and veterans.

Edited by user Saturday, August 22, 2020 6:08:36 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: R-Class Racing License
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#8 Posted : Sunday, August 23, 2020 8:31:57 AM(UTC)
All we need is a skill matching/sportsmanship system. It will really need it if it is going to be on gamepass with everyone under the sun trying it. Sounds like a disaster to me as well if not managed properly. Just look a the horrible attitude people have in Horizon lobbies that is worse than ever because of the gamepass. I have no problem bringing people in but it has to be done in a way so as not to be extremely disruptive.

Edited by user Sunday, August 23, 2020 8:48:23 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#9 Posted : Sunday, August 23, 2020 9:01:57 AM(UTC)
The Needs of the Many Outweigh the Needs of the Few
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#10 Posted : Sunday, August 23, 2020 9:58:30 AM(UTC)
That's not helping Mr. Spock
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#11 Posted : Sunday, August 23, 2020 4:43:40 PM(UTC)
New Motorsport will be on Gamepass and they’re targeting new players. You can take some comfort that Horizon will always be #1 environment for casual players. I personally dislike idea of it going straight to gamepass, but understand and accept it…. In saying that, Turn10 absolutely MUST have a system in place to control the online experience. That may include;

1) Licencing System. Series of lessons and tests designed to educate players on Basics of Racing, Regulations, Etiquette, and establish their Ability relative to others. Tests must have levels of increasing difficulty. Players licence will help determine what lobbies (car class and weather scenarios) are available in multiplayer. Example;

a. A Class licence – Easy difficulty focusing on road cars, basics of car control, basic manoeuvres and etiquette, understanding regulations and penalties, can be completed with assists. Must reach X rank (establish experience and consistency) before gaining access to next licence.
b. R Class Licence – Moderate difficulty focusing on race cars, longer race distances, racing in wet, tire strategy, being fast and consistent, advanced race craft, limited assists. Must reach X rank to progress.
c. Super Licence – Hard difficulty focusing on Prototype and Formula cars, ultimate pace, aerodynamics and ERS, endurance and racing at night, sim damage & assists.

2) A Matchmaking system that ranks players according to Pace (finishing position) and Sportsmanship (no. of contacts and penalties). FRR also effects finishing position, therefore ranking will bias clean and consistent racing which I think is a good thing.

More specifically to OP concerns, maybe experience (reward tier) gives a proportionate boost into your starting rank. However, you still must pass licences which will hopefully prove challenging even for returning players, but you can do them alot quicker than a totally new player

Edit. If implementing a strict system as above, We absolutely must have custom lobbies back, to provide a place where players can just do whatever they want, with whoever they want!

Edited by user Sunday, August 23, 2020 5:12:37 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#12 Posted : Monday, August 24, 2020 2:01:47 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: J4K3M6047 Go to Quoted Post
I think this is going to be highly controversial, but in my opinion, new players should be less of a focus for the new Motorsport game, and it should just cater mostly to the original Forza fans. I am one of them, and having played Forza since February 2010, I think its safe to say that original Forza fans at least started out on the 360 titles or earlier. If we bring in new players, particularly to this next Motorsport game, that it will be a bad idea. This is due to the fact that if new players' first Forza game is the next Motorsport, they won't know how to drive and will end up just ramming in multiplayer.

Turn 10, please focus on the veterans for Motorsport, and take the noobs who suck at driving over to Forza Horizon 4. Since FM5 the games have just been half-finished cash grabs with an emphasis on quantity over quality, and I'm hoping that the next Forza game reverses that current business strategy which has plagued Forza for years.

What is this, that I smell?

*snif* *snif* Oh right, a 360 widow. Yuck!

Ironically I agree with you when it comes to the new fans. If Forza Motorsport tries too hard to cater to the biggest possible demographic, it will die. We already have people in the community who only play Forza Horizon, because Motorsport is "too hard". Like, seriously? The physics is the same. Motorsport feels heavier, stiffer, more like a real car, but that's it. I truly believe Forza Motorsport should be like Flight Simulator: a product that shows what you can do with your resources. Leave the fancy colors to Horizon.

On the other hand, nope, accessiblity won't have a negative impact on the game's quality. Look at Flight Simulator, 90+ score, best flight sim to date... and everyone can play it. You, your friends, your grandma. People keep falling for vitriol spewed by Assetto Corsa fanboys, that AC is hard with a controller because it's "realistic". No f-ing way, it's hard because Kunos sucks! Can't even make a decent console port. Thus, Forza Motorsport being more "accessible" should help people get into it, which helps the game, without hurting the game's quality.

In fact, you keep going on about "let's bring back the 360 days", when Forza Motorsport has never been known for being a difficult game. Forza Motorsport is the green side of the force's Gran Turismo. It's not built to be difficult. Can it be more sim-like? Hell yes! Codemasters is here to prove you can have pit stops, fuel and tire management and simulation damage in a simcade. But it's not intended to be hard, and in this scenario it might even be more realistic than full-blown sims, which go for difficulty over realism. I don't like being in the company of Ian Bell in this argument but it is what it is.

If you're this concerned about the quality of online blood that you make a thread on the forum asking the studio to make theirgame not as successful, you should be requesting Turn 10 to add a proper driving school and license ratings to the game, like iRacing has (and Gran Turismo is just a copy of iRacing). Without regulations and some form of control, rammers are gonna ram, no two ways about it. If not even the economy can manage itself through self-regulation, I can't expect a bunch of gamers to do so.

Nobody likes rammers either, so sending them over to Forza Horizon will just make them a Forza Horizon problem. Besides, by virtue of being the more popular game, Forza Horizon is already more targeted by rammers, trolls and cheaters.

To top it all, the studio that makes Halo did a trailer "for the fans". The old Halo artstyle and gameplay is there. There were lots of long time fans who enjoyed it. But the graphics suck. So they got laughed at (I hate you, Craig).

360 days are over, you need new fans to survive. Whether with sprint or accessibility. Microsoft won't expand the Game Pass by catering to a dwindling amount of people too attached to their plastic box to see the big picture.

Edited by user Monday, August 24, 2020 2:13:01 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

May the forced induction be with you.

Alice >>>>>>>>>> Keira
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#13 Posted : Monday, August 24, 2020 7:17:38 PM(UTC)
I suspect the second law of thermodynamics might apply here, if you think of the Forza community as a closed system. Without new people, ideas and growth, it will die more rapidly. (The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of any isolated system always increases.)
Rank: Driver's License
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#14 Posted : Wednesday, August 26, 2020 1:35:55 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: J4K3M6047 Go to Quoted Post
If we bring in new players, particularly to this next Motorsport game, that it will be a bad idea. This is due to the fact that if new players' first Forza game is the next Motorsport, they won't know how to drive and will end up just ramming in multiplayer.
I don't think the players crashed less in Forza Motorsport 4. It's not about new players, it's about creating a multiplayer environment with emphasis on rules and match making systems that differentiate based on skills and attitude.

I think Turn10 is making the right choice to focus more on Motorsport and that's new for the franchise in some ways, because before FM always was a Pokemon type game with a focus on track days. I'm glad the new direction will bring us closer to Motorsport than ever and obviously you will find new players with this strategy. Players, who may be disappointed by the direction taken of pCars 3 compared to 2 for example.

Edited by user Wednesday, August 26, 2020 1:39:42 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
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#15 Posted : Wednesday, August 26, 2020 3:42:46 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: J4K3M6047 Go to Quoted Post
I think this is going to be highly controversial, but in my opinion, new players should be less of a focus for the new Motorsport game, and it should just cater mostly to the original Forza fans. I am one of them, and having played Forza since February 2010, I think its safe to say that original Forza fans at least started out on the 360 titles or earlier. If we bring in new players, particularly to this next Motorsport game, that it will be a bad idea. This is due to the fact that if new players' first Forza game is the next Motorsport, they won't know how to drive and will end up just ramming in multiplayer.

Turn 10, please focus on the veterans for Motorsport, and take the noobs who suck at driving over to Forza Horizon 4. Since FM5 the games have just been half-finished cash grabs with an emphasis on quantity over quality, and I'm hoping that the next Forza game reverses that current business strategy which has plagued Forza for years.


This is a disturbing (and funny) suggestion. Imagine walking into a supermarket to buy groceries to be confronted with a big sign saying "If you have never used this store before, please go away we don't want your money. Existing customers are welcome."



Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#16 Posted : Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:09:42 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Devilish Accord Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: J4K3M6047 Go to Quoted Post
I think this is going to be highly controversial, but in my opinion, new players should be less of a focus for the new Motorsport game, and it should just cater mostly to the original Forza fans. I am one of them, and having played Forza since February 2010, I think its safe to say that original Forza fans at least started out on the 360 titles or earlier. If we bring in new players, particularly to this next Motorsport game, that it will be a bad idea. This is due to the fact that if new players' first Forza game is the next Motorsport, they won't know how to drive and will end up just ramming in multiplayer.

Turn 10, please focus on the veterans for Motorsport, and take the noobs who suck at driving over to Forza Horizon 4. Since FM5 the games have just been half-finished cash grabs with an emphasis on quantity over quality, and I'm hoping that the next Forza game reverses that current business strategy which has plagued Forza for years.


This is a disturbing (and funny) suggestion. Imagine walking into a supermarket to buy groceries to be confronted with a big sign saying "If you have never used this store before, please go away we don't want your money. Existing customers are welcome."





Poor analogy, a supermarket has some of everything as it's designed that way, Forza never was.

To put OP's opinion a bit better they're basically saying FM should be for those with an interest in racing, ergo those who will actually try and drive properly regardless of their skill level.

Making the game for it's core fanbase above all else would result in a higher quality game and only bring in new fans worth having.

Money talks though for most companies nowadays.

Off the top of my head I would say look at the Souls series, that hasn't ever done anything to appeal to the casual gamer and it's done just fine, became a benchmark in it's genre and even created 1 of it's own.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#17 Posted : Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:30:45 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Schumacher 9I Go to Quoted Post
New Motorsport will be on Gamepass ...


If this happens my forza career will stop soon. Played them all but i need to stop at some point.
Forza motorsport games are preaty bad(5,6,7) with or without new players.

I really hope the new one will be better because if they fail will not be good for them.

I preaty much agree..we need regulations and a good rating system.

Edited by user Thursday, August 27, 2020 12:19:00 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#18 Posted : Wednesday, August 26, 2020 11:59:51 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DylanDrog Go to Quoted Post
The Needs of the Many Outweigh the Needs of the Few



In this case no. The main reason why turn10 is loosing ground is just that; they`re trying too hard to please everyone (=kids) instead of focusing on just cars, racing & tuning.




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#19 Posted : Friday, August 28, 2020 2:32:59 AM(UTC)

Isn't the relative success of Horizon attributed to its casual nature and wide ranging appeal? I don't see Motorsport gaining sales with a blurb on the back of the box that says 'Now more complicated than ever! - long time fan'

What most people don't want are rammers and clueless noobs which I think can be dealt with, without trying to make the game unfriendly to new players which we all were at one time.

All games need an influx of new blood if the are to survive, Forza needs to be appealing, it just needs to do a better job of showing people the way.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#20 Posted : Sunday, August 30, 2020 5:28:48 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: P00hhead Go to Quoted Post

Isn't the relative success of Horizon attributed to its casual nature and wide ranging appeal? I don't see Motorsport gaining sales with a blurb on the back of the box that says 'Now more complicated than ever! - long time fan'

What most people don't want are rammers and clueless noobs which I think can be dealt with, without trying to make the game unfriendly to new players which we all were at one time.

All games need an influx of new blood if the are to survive, Forza needs to be appealing, it just needs to do a better job of showing people the way.


IMO Forza Motorsport has two main "opponents": Horizon itself, and Gran Turismo. Can't see FM venturing too deep in realism in order to challenge actual sims, whose audience is much smaller anyway.

The direct competition is Gran Turismo. However, there are people who would play Forza Motorsport in the past, but now find themselves more interested in the friendlier physics of Forza Horizon, which means it's very difficult for Forza Motorsport to defeat Gran Turismo on sales alone, even with PC support.

T10 needs to target Gran Turismo, which is the only rival that matters in their genre, and do their own thing. No point in trying to outsell or even match Forza Horizon. It won't happen. Also, the last couple games showed very clearly there's a gap between the player base of both games, which is demonstrated by FM7 failing to bridge it with its more casual tone.
May the forced induction be with you.

Alice >>>>>>>>>> Keira
Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#21 Posted : Monday, August 31, 2020 10:10:12 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: J4K3M6047 Go to Quoted Post
I think this is going to be highly controversial, but in my opinion, new players should be less of a focus for the new Motorsport game, and it should just cater mostly to the original Forza fans. I am one of them, and having played Forza since February 2010, I think its safe to say that original Forza fans at least started out on the 360 titles or earlier. If we bring in new players, particularly to this next Motorsport game, that it will be a bad idea. This is due to the fact that if new players' first Forza game is the next Motorsport, they won't know how to drive and will end up just ramming in multiplayer.

Turn 10, please focus on the veterans for Motorsport, and take the noobs who suck at driving over to Forza Horizon 4. Since FM5 the games have just been half-finished cash grabs with an emphasis on quantity over quality, and I'm hoping that the next Forza game reverses that current business strategy which has plagued Forza for years.


Yes, I agree - I honestly want them to go back to the good ol' days of Forza on the X360 and improve the next game based on factors that made those games great. E.g. superb car sound effects, nuanced physics, and generally more focus on just track driving and motorsports rather than silly nonsense like driver outfits, crates or bowling games. Also non race cars or track driving cars like three-wheelers, jeeps and wagons - please, who needs them?

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#22 Posted : Wednesday, September 2, 2020 9:09:54 AM(UTC)
In a sence I see only one thing that's been truly lacking in FM5, 6, and 7,

Now I concider myself as a veteran, at least sort of. I found the game bit late, as I got 360 late. it came with FM2 when 3 was allready out.
Eventually I found multiplayer as there wasn't enough challenge in single player or I would have had to drive cars that I find uninteresting.
I created lobbys, I found couple friends to play with, and we had fun.

FM4 came out, and I started playing that. couple old friends followed me, I found a group of new friends, and couple months later we had created a lobby that was open 8 huors a day, with clean racers.
We tried to cater to everyone races ranging from F class to R1, Sim damage, collisions allways on.
Sure we had couple rammers every now and then, which we could kick from the lobby for obvious reasons. The would be welcome next day, assuming they learned their lesson, and of course accidnets do happen so no-one was removed without a proof that he actually is a rammer. which usually happened so that one of the main 3 took an actually fast car, but didnt try to win, He was there just observing the suspected. If it was lack of experience, We called him in and tried to improve him as a racer.
At this time I allso joined the youtuber "Failrace"s crew, and pretty swiftly became a race marshall for his "VS community" races. but even with that we kept that 4 man squad organizing the 8h random lobby every day. This was the peak of my forza experience.

Genration changed FM5 came out, I got it as soon as I could afford it.

We got our crew together soon after that, and went to create that massively successfull lobby again. Except nobody was joining, as nobody could find us, even after I did some advertizing on forums.
One of us passed away, so there was only 3 of us, nobody wanted to go in the multiplayer hoppers, where one guy was beating everyone else 5 sec/lap and at least 5 other drivers who... to put it kindly, didn't know up from down wrecking everyone else.
But at least I still had Failrace, being race marshall there, and racing 1 or 2 races in a week.

Forza 6 came along I stuck with it, 1 race a week, and being a race marshall, quite frankly it wasn't worth the XBL time anymore.

FM7 came along. I bought it, hoping that things would have improved, I did half of the single player, and some online wreckfest, but it simply wasnt worth the XBL time. I knew some guys on PC gaming and started playing wreckfest with them, despite the name it's still a lot cleaner than FM7 online multiplayer.

Right now I see FM series sitting in awkward position. It's a great game, IF you have friends who are playing at the same time as you, and there is more than 5 of them. You can have fun with the game.
If you dont care about multiplayer, you can have fun with the game.
If you want to play multiplayer, but dont have 5+ friends available at roughly the time you want to play, it's less painful to crawl on broken glass. in other words, not worth it.
Some of you say "go to multiplayer hopper and find friends." But honestly the atmosphere on the hoppers is either toxic, or everyone has allready muted everyone else, or are in XBL party, so you never get to talk to anyone.
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Beat me with lotus, No big deal. Beat me with SUV, you have earned my respect
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#23 Posted : Wednesday, September 2, 2020 2:24:22 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: J4K3M6047 Go to Quoted Post
I think this is going to be highly controversial, but in my opinion, new players should be less of a focus for the new Motorsport game, and it should just cater mostly to the original Forza fans. I am one of them, and having played Forza since February 2010, I think its safe to say that original Forza fans at least started out on the 360 titles or earlier. If we bring in new players, particularly to this next Motorsport game, that it will be a bad idea. This is due to the fact that if new players' first Forza game is the next Motorsport, they won't know how to drive and will end up just ramming in multiplayer.

Turn 10, please focus on the veterans for Motorsport, and take the noobs who suck at driving over to Forza Horizon 4. Since FM5 the games have just been half-finished cash grabs with an emphasis on quantity over quality, and I'm hoping that the next Forza game reverses that current business strategy which has plagued Forza for years.



What selfish, narrow-minded thing to suggest. Yuck. I guess lucky for you there wasn't some toad advocating same against you when you were a new player starting out.

And for whatever it's worth, I know I'm just one player and we all have different experiences to draw from, but out of all my multiplayer experiences across FM3-FM7 and FH3-FH4, I found multiplayer in FM7 to be the absolute worst...far, FAR more obnoxious and toxic than anything I've ever encountered in any other Forza titles. The ramming and pile-ups were ridiculous; seldom did I witness anything close to clean driving. The only title that came remotely close was H3's Hot Wheels/Islandtopia expansion online adventures.

Edited by user Wednesday, September 2, 2020 2:40:44 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Every train needs a caboose, right?
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#24 Posted : Wednesday, September 2, 2020 4:30:07 PM(UTC)
I partially agree with the OP in the sense that Motorsport should be focused on being a great driving first and foremost (i.e. appealing to the series veterans) rather than trying to dumb things down to attract new players.

However, that does not mean that the game shouldn't continue to improve and identify ways to make the game more approachable for new players without compromising what makes the game great to begin with. Things like an in-game racing school and better driving assists and even a tuning assistant would be invaluable for new players while not affecting the core game.

Ultimately the game should try to attract new players by being the best it can be (players tend to recognize quality in a game and are drawn to it) rather than chasing the latest trends in an attempt to boost player engagement (locked exclusive cars, wheelspins, outfits to name a few in FM7).
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#25 Posted : Wednesday, September 2, 2020 5:11:04 PM(UTC)
It is up to Turn 10 to make this a better space. They can have better matchmaking with skill and sportsmanship meaning something. It isn't fair to the veteran or the new player to be in the same lobby together. They have the tools, it works in GT Sport pretty well, not perfect but decent. If they don't do this, I promise nothing will change. The same guys cutting in Pinnacle are still the same guys cutting in Pinnacle from 2+ years ago. What really irks me is the time wasted cutting. These guys show up every day like clockwork and if they had raced clean all this time instead of cutting they would be a lot better by now but they don't get it and never will. I don't cut and am significantly faster than I was when I first started F7. Imagine that, clean racing makes you faster.

Edited by user Wednesday, September 2, 2020 5:16:22 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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