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#1 Posted : Sunday, July 26, 2020 2:06:04 PM(UTC)
I know rank has been brought up before in some fashions but this is really killing the game at this point for anyone who enjoys Online Adventure.

As some context, I am in arguably the best team for Ranked Games (^TDT). I have 131 wins so far this series. It shows 7 losses but honestly I don't even know when that would have been as we don't lose. Maybe DCs?

For those who don't know; when you win a ranked match in this system if the game doesn't end with the same amount of players it started with, you gain 0 rank. I do rank every single day for 4-7 hours. If I am SUPER lucky I might gain 1-50 points of rank in a week. Not often though, and sometimes the points don't even stick when they should.

Most teams either avoid us or find ranked pointless now and do un-ranked games. Most random players will quit before the first round ends, and definitely before the end. Very very rarely do you get fun matches against other teams or with players who stick around. 99.99% of the time you end up playing against 1-3 people who stuck it out after round 1.

The only time you actually get points is when you get super lucky and the whole other team of people stay because they're just trying to get their season competition bonus. However, here is the real kicker on that as well. Sometimes if you get so lucky as to have them stay at the end, if their ranks are low enough you will actually LOSE POINTS. So you can win all day, all week, and just lose rank for it.

This system is ridiculous, it is killing the Online Adventure game, and entirely unfair to anyone who didn't get to play in the old system and wants to gain rank or even just to have fun.

STOP penalizing us for people quitting. Fix this system! Let us have competition and fun again before the entire group of players interested finally give up and even people just looking for season completion can't get a queue to pop.

I should be GM by now, but I'm rank 7. Hell I've got a teammate who has been a mere 12-20 points away from getting GM since I met him essentially.

There is NO excuse for this to be this way. You might not want to spend as much resources on this game anymore, and that's fair; but you INTENTIONALLY made it this way. A fact which is absolute insanity.

Edited by user Sunday, July 26, 2020 2:10:23 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#2 Posted : Sunday, July 26, 2020 2:31:21 PM(UTC)
You can get it in free-for-all, but you'll have to be good. Good luck :p
Rank: Driver's Permit
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#3 Posted : Sunday, July 26, 2020 2:34:45 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
You can get it in free-for-all, but you'll have to be good. Good luck :p

Also very difficult for different reasons, you still lose rank if there aren't players higher rank than you that you beat or only gain 1-20 points tops. Then there are the other obvious issues with ranked racing that is a whole other topic that has been discussed to death (rammers, wall penalties, freeroam rush, etc).
Rank: Driver's Permit
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#4 Posted : Sunday, July 26, 2020 2:34:59 PM(UTC)
He means team adventure Grandmaster, and yes it's impossible. This system needs fixing urgently because it makes ranked basically pointless.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#5 Posted : Sunday, July 26, 2020 3:20:36 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Max H Blum Go to Quoted Post
He means team adventure Grandmaster


I know, but I didn't know if he knew that FFA wasn't affected.

Team adventure Grandmaster doesn't mean a whole lot anyway given you can ride on your team mates' coat-tails, and the opposition isn't as tough as FFA. I got to league 3 in team adventure just playing with randoms, often being the only decent player on my team.

Edited by user Sunday, July 26, 2020 3:21:16 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
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#6 Posted : Sunday, July 26, 2020 3:55:53 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Max H Blum Go to Quoted Post
He means team adventure Grandmaster


I know, but I didn't know if he knew that FFA wasn't affected.

Team adventure Grandmaster doesn't mean a whole lot anyway given you can ride on your team mates' coat-tails, and the opposition isn't as tough as FFA. I got to league 3 in team adventure just playing with randoms, often being the only decent player on my team.

Yeah that doesn't work in team games. You don't get into a top team without proving yourself, and you don't win without excellent teamwork. Come take your favourite randoms and face us. We'll be happy to test your skills :)

But yes, you are missing the point regardless. This isn't here to compare FFA to Team, or even talk about the gameplay of the game. This is about the impossibility of obtaining rank in Team Adventure, and the result of which destroying the entire team online system because of it. If you and your team work hard you should be able to obtain rank. Without it competition is dieing. When we actually do get to face other teams in ranked games it ends up being some of the most fun experiences one can have in this game IMO. It's very rare though because of how broken this system is.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#7 Posted : Sunday, July 26, 2020 4:00:41 PM(UTC)
I've been stuck on the same points now for what seems like an eternity in Team Adventure (2 levels away from GM).

I also get massively annoyed that i can win several and move so slightly ahead but lose and i get whacked a whole lot of points.

I don't bother with it anymore apart from completing the festival list.
Rank: Driver's Permit
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#8 Posted : Sunday, July 26, 2020 5:52:42 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Max H Blum Go to Quoted Post
He means team adventure Grandmaster


I know, but I didn't know if he knew that FFA wasn't affected.

Team adventure Grandmaster doesn't mean a whole lot anyway given you can ride on your team mates' coat-tails, and the opposition isn't as tough as FFA. I got to league 3 in team adventure just playing with randoms, often being the only decent player on my team.


Yeah... A proper organized team will wreck a team of randoms. Being league 3 doesn't mean much with the current ranked system. It needs fixing to allow proper progression. Any match where any player leaves or DCs means all points gained don't count.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#9 Posted : Sunday, July 26, 2020 10:58:32 PM(UTC)
agree change the online....
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#10 Posted : Sunday, July 26, 2020 11:23:09 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: BeardedFrog64 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Max H Blum Go to Quoted Post
He means team adventure Grandmaster


I know, but I didn't know if he knew that FFA wasn't affected.

Team adventure Grandmaster doesn't mean a whole lot anyway given you can ride on your team mates' coat-tails, and the opposition isn't as tough as FFA. I got to league 3 in team adventure just playing with randoms, often being the only decent player on my team.

Yeah that doesn't work in team games. You don't get into a top team without proving yourself, and you don't win without excellent teamwork. Come take your favourite randoms and face us. We'll be happy to test your skills :)

My opinion is that team ranking is flawed because the team wins or loses, but the rank is individual. I had many matches where I wiped the floor with everyone but my team lost, so I lost points. I've also had very weak players on my team who finished last each time, but we still beat the other team with good players on it, so the weak player got a load of ranking points. The system should have been devised so that the individual players' performance was judged, not (or not just) the team result. Doing it as it is done now means it's a cheap way of getting grandmaster. The only real GMs are in FFA where it's all about your own personal performances and there's nowhere to hide.

Quote:
But yes, you are missing the point regardless. This isn't here to compare FFA to Team, or even talk about the gameplay of the game. This is about the impossibility of obtaining rank in Team Adventure, and the result of which destroying the entire team online system because of it. If you and your team work hard you should be able to obtain rank. Without it competition is dieing. When we actually do get to face other teams in ranked games it ends up being some of the most fun experiences one can have in this game IMO. It's very rare though because of how broken this system is.


I know, there's a whole thread about it here: https://forums.forzamoto...ut-of-luck-all-week.aspx

Rank: Driver's License
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#11 Posted : Monday, July 27, 2020 1:22:29 AM(UTC)
I've been trying ranked for last couple week but i cant work out if it's broken or not.
After the races are finished and it shows +/- rank points, it shows me moving up a level but when I go back in to ranked race menu my rank hasn't changed at all.

'I may not agree with what you have to say, but i will defend to the death your right to say it.'
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#12 Posted : Monday, July 27, 2020 1:41:29 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: OG wal Go to Quoted Post
I've been trying ranked for last couple week but i cant work out if it's broken or not.
After the races are finished and it shows +/- rank points, it shows me moving up a level but when I go back in to ranked race menu my rank hasn't changed at all.

The whole mode is a mess - mostly due to the barely functional points system. In Team Adventure it's practically impossible to reach the highest ranks. FFA is a long, difficult, tedious & frustrating grind.
PG obviously had no experience with a "True Skill" based system and then stopped caring. The system continously drains its own points pool which leads to an increasing difficulty to reach the higher ranks. We had this before until PG used a reset to "solve" it.
In short: the system doesn't work.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#13 Posted : Monday, July 27, 2020 2:45:50 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: OG wal Go to Quoted Post
I've been trying ranked for last couple week but i cant work out if it's broken or not.
After the races are finished and it shows +/- rank points, it shows me moving up a level but when I go back in to ranked race menu my rank hasn't changed at all.



You haven’t got any points for those as someone must have dropped out of the adventure. It might be broken or it might be an intentional decision to stop any points being awarded if anyone drops out of an adventure. Unfortunately, so far as I’m aware, PG have steadfastly failed to comment on this issue at all and close any complaints on the basis that the issue is already known. We therefore don’t know whether it is a deliberate decision or not. It’s a very disappointing way of dealing with the issue.


Rank: Driver's Permit
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#14 Posted : Monday, July 27, 2020 11:28:51 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: OG wal Go to Quoted Post
I've been trying ranked for last couple week but i cant work out if it's broken or not.
After the races are finished and it shows +/- rank points, it shows me moving up a level but when I go back in to ranked race menu my rank hasn't changed at all.



You haven’t got any points for those as someone must have dropped out of the adventure. It might be broken or it might be an intentional decision to stop any points being awarded if anyone drops out of an adventure. Unfortunately, so far as I’m aware, PG have steadfastly failed to comment on this issue at all and close any complaints on the basis that the issue is already known. We therefore don’t know whether it is a deliberate decision or not. It’s a very disappointing way of dealing with the issue.



It is likely deliberate but something they probably hadn't intended to break so badly. The system USED to work.

Also to FullNietzsche, I know there is another thread on it, which is 7 months old, and is from when they first changed/broke the system. The thread mostly has confused people who didn't understand what was going on. Bumping that thread does no good. I'll admit that posting this probably also won't have an effect, but like soooo many other players I am fed up with having it be broken like this and had to at least try to make a stand on it.

To OG wal, Jezza is right. As I mentioned in my main post, If the team adventure series doesn't end with the same number of people who joined, you won't get points. You will get that taunting message at the end making it seem like you are gaining rank progress, but after you exit, you'll find they didn't count at all. This does mean that it doesn't HAVE to be 6v6 to count as if a match happens to start with 5v6 or 5v5 etc because someone DC'd before it even started, it can count. I will say that sometimes these points don't stick even when it does end 6v6, which is also confusing. Sometimes points will even reset the next day.

One amusing note though, is that if you look at your series reward bonus for highest rank you have obtained, it will show the rank you would have gotten off a match you won even though the points weren't added. Mine shows rank 5 from a few times we beat teams that it fake bumped me to rank 5. It's like the series rewards bonus is calculated off the end game bar, and not the rank you get reset back down to when the points don't stick.

Anyway the point of this is to try and get visibility to the fact that no matter how much you do ranked, and win in team adventure, you will never reach Grandmaster and almost never gain rank period. As I said for context, I do rank every day for 4-7 hours, and I get no where. Fix the system before the entire thing dies (we aren't far away from this). Stop penalizing us for people leaving, and us winning. Let us be rewarded for our time, and efforts, and skill. Otherwise right now, rank in general is just a rude taunting of something that is no longer obtainable. Ranked can be a ton of fun when people stay, and teams face teams etc, and gaining rank for your accomplishments, but those times are dieing fast as everyone is giving up on this broken system.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#15 Posted : Monday, July 27, 2020 12:28:28 PM(UTC)
In the monthly live stream on Twitch they kept deleting live chat comments asking for this to be fixed. At the same time, they mentioned improvements coming in the update after this one (increased garage space), and didn't mention fixing this, so I guess it's not getting fixed any time soon.
Rank: Racing Permit
#16 Posted : Monday, July 27, 2020 4:22:37 PM(UTC)
Being someone who reached GM before they changed the system. Be thankful that it has made the feel of team comradery noticeably alot stronger. Back then gaining points went to peoples heads. Thats all that seemed to matter. It caused endless arguments, teams broke up, players team hopped to where they felt they could gain more points, bad performance in one game could mean you got kicked from the team you were in, if you were seen playing with someone whom someone in your team didnt like (more arguments) ect. Main reason i took a long break from ranked games. Too much childish bickering, "playground" games was a very fitting name because it reminded me of life back in school.
Rank: Racing Permit
#17 Posted : Monday, July 27, 2020 4:23:18 PM(UTC)
Edit - double post

Edited by user Monday, July 27, 2020 4:25:18 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#18 Posted : Monday, July 27, 2020 4:55:34 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: breeminator Go to Quoted Post
In the monthly live stream on Twitch they kept deleting live chat comments asking for this to be fixed. At the same time, they mentioned improvements coming in the update after this one (increased garage space), and didn't mention fixing this, so I guess it's not getting fixed any time soon.


That is really poor, verging on entirely unacceptable. I don’t really care whether or not this issue gets resolved or if they have decided it’s an appropriate mechanism to remain. However, the complete failure to engage at all is a terrible example of how to treat customers. All they need to do is explain what is going on. If that is to say that they think this is the best mechanism for TA or TG then ok - it isn’t but at least that’s an answer.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#19 Posted : Monday, July 27, 2020 11:40:57 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: STIGWOODINGER Go to Quoted Post
Being someone who reached GM before they changed the system.

You are talking about last changes or "revaluation" change that happened few months after game release?
I did get my GM rank as solo player when revaluation was done. Before I was rank 7 or 6(?).

I think the easiest fix for TA points would be going back to previous system. With two small changes: 1. it should count people ranks at beginning of adventure, not at the end 2. when it counts scores (100) at the end of race, it would not take into account that someone left until next race.

And now I will steal this thread with unpopular opinion? TEAM adventure should not be CLUB/CONVOY adventure.
Convoys should be able to join, but they should be divided in teams by matchmaking. Possibly with rule that would count that you are in convoy, so it would count points in different way then in race with strangers?
For me the point of convoy is to have good clean racers in one lobby.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#20 Posted : Tuesday, July 28, 2020 1:55:49 AM(UTC)
change is def needed again before the last change i coulnt even get past level 18 it was a joke but i think the best i got since thats was either 9 or 10 so it did make a big diffrence once i get grand master once il probly not go back to online anymore because thers to many cheats online
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#21 Posted : Tuesday, July 28, 2020 1:57:45 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: breeminator Go to Quoted Post
In the monthly live stream on Twitch they kept deleting live chat comments asking for this to be fixed. At the same time, they mentioned improvements coming in the update after this one (increased garage space), and didn't mention fixing this, so I guess it's not getting fixed any time soon.


That is really poor, verging on entirely unacceptable. I don’t really care whether or not this issue gets resolved or if they have decided it’s an appropriate mechanism to remain. However, the complete failure to engage at all is a terrible example of how to treat customers. All they need to do is explain what is going on. If that is to say that they think this is the best mechanism for TA or TG then ok - it isn’t but at least that’s an answer.


They have contempt for their own customers, how does it feel?

Even basic requests for stuff like getting the deafening game volume on startup reduced has been ignored for two years.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#22 Posted : Tuesday, July 28, 2020 3:05:07 AM(UTC)
I quit ranked Team Games in August 2019 after studying the Trueskill and Trueskill2 and comparing the current system incorporated in team games. Long story short, those systems were optimised for individual player ranking and may work on other games like Rocket League where individual points counts the most. With the current state of the ranked system in team games caused in Update 17, the majority of the team is focused on optimising the game in the final stages for XSX and a small team should be working on the Project xCloud. Between both teams and the pandemic, they need a lot of people to currently support the game till October next year or when Motorsports drops.

The Increment towards the garage slots and the reduction of races to acheive rank, it clearly shows that despite the numerous complaints I've heard from other teams as well as personally filing via the Support website, you might be inclined to come to the conclusion that adjusting the issues present in team games might be at the bottom of the list at the moment. Coupled with the fact that certain cars are a preferred favourite in team games such as the Hoonigan RS200, which always has had an advantage in summer in most arenas and a partial advantage in wet and winter arena perhaps to prolong the agreement between Hoonigan and Forza is another blow to the motivation of team games. Whilst hiding in small area with small cars is an interesting concept, both the HRS200 and hiding does have a negative impact to potential team players. Nice to know that the respawn will be fixed - with highlights to the Eliminator.

There is nothing wrong with the current arenas, as all of them are different and require an individual tune for all three weathers, which most people don't do. However, I find there's an issue with the point system in general. With the current bugged system actually creating a fair matchplay, this is where you can see who has the most skills. However, with the amount of PC players hiding their skills behind speedhacks will discourage any fair play to the system and then the legitimacy of that team having members with the grandmaster rank becomes a total farce. The previous sentence was based on multiple evidence from different teams on an individual and is no way implicated to the current OP team.

To me, grandmaster in Horizon is an illusion - ranking systems such the above mentioned TrueSkill or Elo is rather difficult to implement on the current team games. There are too many variables that influences the end result. First, there is no proper fair competition as cars that are too OP tend to dominate the game giving players a limited amount of cars to effectively compete in team games. Random team players are discouraged easily when a team leaves the match and these players are a nuisance and a hinderance to fair competition on both sides. In turn they leave the match as well leading to a final match against one player. This should be discouraged from Trial as well as ranked team Adventure and Team Games.

Set your eyes on >Jan 2021 for a possible fix. At that time, we will most likely be reaching EOL status. Whether or not a solution for the current system appears in the coming update - God only knows, yep him - RNGesus. Above everything else, score values should NEVER be shown next to the rank and should be hidden as it introduces an abstract hierachy in teams. In addtion, GM should be a grind with a requirement with a number of events per month as to keep the rank alongside the point allocation system. The end result should be a cumulative result from the individual matches for the entire games, not the final result. Perhaps an added motivation would be to reduced the session integration after a team event has been completed. The whole ranked system needs to be replaced with a new ranked system - that should tell you when a fix will appear.

PS: On another note, unranked is slowly becoming more competitive than ranked. I mainly use unranked to test my tunes against other players for a short duration. However, leaving unranked games invites seem to invite unfriendly messages from other players as well - which is mind baffling since its unranked. Unranked should be a place for teams to scout fo potential players for their ranked events. Most of my cars are upgraded stock tuned and if you outsmart a player with an OP car, the cheater accusations are really de-motivating compared to my rally simcade games.
However, due to studies, I will take a break till January 2021 with occassional logins in Assetto Corsa and will login only on Thursdays in Forza to get the new car.

Edited by user Tuesday, July 28, 2020 9:33:52 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Grammar.

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#23 Posted : Tuesday, July 28, 2020 4:44:13 AM(UTC)
I don't understand how you are only rank 7. That's my rank and I only play it once a month for the playlist.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#24 Posted : Tuesday, July 28, 2020 9:09:49 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RED RIDER NL Go to Quoted Post
I don't understand how you are only rank 7. That's my rank and I only play it once a month for the playlist.

Because I can't gain any rank? As I said before the current system is broken, if people leave you gain nothing for winning (which they do 99% of the time). You probably got rank 7 when the system was working. If it was working like it used to I would be GM by now, many many times over in fact.

Also in regards to some other posts... Yes we all know there are tons of other things that would make things better. Plenty of glitches like hiding spots, glitch spots, OP things, cheaters etc yes. I could go on for eons about all the things they should fix in this game and how silly it is that a lot of them still exist.

That isn't the point though. A lot of those things add up to a lot of time and in some cases whole system changes. I don't expect them to perfect all the things in this game at this point.

However, the issue here of being unable to ever gain any rank anymore is not a complex issue, and previously worked fine before they changed it to be broken. I don't care how they do it but the easy/lazy/acceptable method would be to just bring it back to the way it was. This isn't an issue that would require any real time or development. If the current system is going to stay, then you might as well get rid of rank, because no one is going to bother with ranked anymore (almost there now), and the ranks themselves will continue to be a legacy item of game play.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#25 Posted : Tuesday, July 28, 2020 9:45:54 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: BeardedFrog64 Go to Quoted Post
However, the issue here of being unable to ever gain any rank anymore is not a complex issue, and previously worked fine before they changed it to be broken.

It didn't work fine before, it was widely gamed / exploited.
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