Rank: Racing Permit
 2 users liked this post.
#1 Posted : Saturday, July 11, 2020 11:02:27 AM(UTC)
ok higher difficulty of racing should not consist of more aggressive drivitars that focus on everything in real life racing you get the boot for. if we can get kicked off this game for being too violent then the drivitars shouldnt be alowed to be violent at all. higher difficulty for racing is faster cars and uncatchable skills. as little contact as possible and you even promote destruction in this game stop rewarding violence !!! if they want to beat everything up tell them to go find help racing is dupposed to be clean as possible. some bumping and grinding is unavoidable in a race but using cop tactics is cheap and doesnt belong in the racing world.. and again higher difficulty should not equal more violent ai and disabled custom settings. and the reason i feel this wat of your game is you. and if you are regretfull, truely dont send apologies instead fix it. otherwise i just will never believe you.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#2 Posted : Saturday, July 11, 2020 1:10:06 PM(UTC)
I'm not sure how they generate the AI that is used to emulate the other cars. Some are clean and a little too "all-knowing" (talking about you Street Scene). But others are absolute crash-masters. Ran an A800 CC with OffRoad Monsters recently, last week, I think...there was a Regalia in it that was a total mess. Throwing sideways, always running in to you, and of course, the force field. Just trying to get around it while holding any sort of line was nearly impossible, while the cars ahead of it just kept going. This current week, running the Trial, any time I saw a white van, I stayed away because on three separate occasions, I saw it stop dead in the middle of the track (collecting me the first time) and causing a glut behind it. But many of the other cars just run their line give or take.

So I don't know the answer, but I would love to know how they collect the data to generate the driving profiles the AI use. I know FM6 is a different game, different development team, but I don't recall that much stupid driving in that game...well, aside from tire barriers. But I don't see any sort of fix happening, not for this game. For Horizon 5, perhaps they will make it better, but I would think it would be a serious programming undertaking to do on a 2 yr old game.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
#3 Posted : Saturday, July 11, 2020 2:55:15 PM(UTC)
Microsoft statement: "Drivatars emulate the player's driving habits"

Microsoft is 100% correct. But people prefer to believe their head canon and deny it.

Anyway, Drivatars reproduce driving habits, not speed. So yes, your scrub friend's digital cousin will win races. But in your friend's style. If he's a rammer, he'll play rough. If he's clean, you'll find he's surprisingly tame for an AI.

If Drivatars reproduced player speed, there wouldn't be any point in difficulties, since the Drivatar would be as fast as the player it's imitating. Such is not the case. My list has some PTG and HLR guys from the time I did hot laps in FM7, and trust me, those guys' digital counterparts always provide good racing, but you may hilariously find an HLR Moss trundling around the back of the grid, beaten by gamertags who seldom touch Forza.

Unfortunately, not everyone plays Forza, so I assume there's some kind of "placeholder" AI for these gamertags, which could be where the erratic behavior is coming from. Also, people do things offline that they wouldn't online, but the data still goes to Microsoft's servers to build their Drivatar with.

Edited by user Saturday, July 11, 2020 2:59:56 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

May the forced induction be with you.

Alice >>>>>>>>>> Keira
Rank: R-Class Racing License
 5 users liked this post.
#4 Posted : Saturday, July 11, 2020 3:09:35 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
Microsoft statement: "Drivatars emulate the player's driving habits"

Microsoft is 100% correct. But people prefer to believe their head canon and deny it.

Anyway, Drivatars reproduce driving habits, not speed. So yes, your scrub friend's digital cousin will win races. But in your friend's style. If he's a rammer, he'll play rough. If he's clean, you'll find he's surprisingly tame for an AI.

If Drivatars reproduced player speed, there wouldn't be any point in difficulties, since the Drivatar would be as fast as the player it's imitating. Such is not the case. My list has some PTG and HLR guys from the time I did hot laps in FM7, and trust me, those guys' digital counterparts always provide good racing, but you may hilariously find an HLR Moss trundling around the back of the grid, beaten by gamertags who seldom touch Forza.

Unfortunately, not everyone plays Forza, so I assume there's some kind of "placeholder" AI for these gamertags, which could be where the erratic behavior is coming from. Also, people do things offline that they wouldn't online, but the data still goes to Microsoft's servers to build their Drivatar with.


None of the AI is based on real player data any more, they're all generic AI.
Rank: Driver's License
 5 users liked this post.
#5 Posted : Saturday, July 11, 2020 3:18:42 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post


None of the AI is based on real player data any more, they're all generic AI.


Not only that, despite Microsoft's claims it's probably the AAA racing game title with the least human-like AI out there. It's definitely not imitating the behaviour of the real counterparts in any way. FM7 is even worse.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#6 Posted : Saturday, July 11, 2020 9:19:46 PM(UTC)
Yeah, the AI in Forza is pretty bad. Not as bad as the awful AI in The Crew that cheats like there's no tomorrow, but still one of the weaker parts of the game.

I think the biggest issue I take with the AI in Forza is that they don't make mistakes like real players do, which greatly contributes to the feeling that they're cheating (which they are). Unless you manage to break them with a custom route specifically designed to make them miss checkpoints or ram them out yourself, they never overshoot corners, always take jumps perfectly, almost always dodge traffic in street races and follow the racing line to a T. I can understand on the highest difficulties that they should drive "perfectly", but not if they need the game to bend the laws of physics for them to do so.

I've been playing a bit of Wreckfest and it's refreshing to see the AI make mistakes and overshoot corners, clip other cars and spin out and generally drive like real players.

Anyways, totally agree that the AI should model good racing behavior to the players (which they fail miserably at). It doesn't help that FH4, and especially street racing and cross country encourage all kinds of awful driving and destruction and reward the player for behaviors that would be crimes IRL. I know that plenty of games do this, but those games generally are rated at least T and aren't marketed towards children like FH4 is.

Edited by user Saturday, July 11, 2020 9:21:20 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: R-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#7 Posted : Saturday, July 11, 2020 10:22:08 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: nortsable Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post


None of the AI is based on real player data any more, they're all generic AI.


Not only that, despite Microsoft's claims it's probably the AAA racing game title with the least human-like AI out there. It's definitely not imitating the behaviour of the real counterparts in any way. FM7 is even worse.


They have certain bad habits but nothing I haven't seen from real players, in fact I prefer offline racing because the AI plays fairer (except when it gets speed boosts like at Sebring FM7). Best ones in my list usually defend their positions very well. If you're racing clean you need smart driving to win.

In online Forza people divebomb you all the time, offline the divebombing also exists but much more tame. Also, the AI's cars don't behave the same way, they're much heavier and tip you over. This behavior is a Horizon thing that only got introduced in Motorsport with FM7 and it's one of the most arcadish things you can do to increase difficulty in an artificial way.

However I could still be wrong and my findings are placebo. I'm just trying to make some sense out of it. Otherwise it's pointless to race against Drivatars, just bring back M. Rossi.
May the forced induction be with you.

Alice >>>>>>>>>> Keira
Rank: R-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#8 Posted : Saturday, July 11, 2020 10:41:00 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: nortsable Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post


None of the AI is based on real player data any more, they're all generic AI.


Not only that, despite Microsoft's claims it's probably the AAA racing game title with the least human-like AI out there. It's definitely not imitating the behaviour of the real counterparts in any way. FM7 is even worse.


They have certain bad habits but nothing I haven't seen from real players, in fact I prefer offline racing because the AI plays fairer (except when it gets speed boosts like at Sebring FM7). Best ones in my list usually defend their positions very well. If you're racing clean you need smart driving to win.

In online Forza people divebomb you all the time, offline the divebombing also exists but much more tame. Also, the AI's cars don't behave the same way, they're much heavier and tip you over. This behavior is a Horizon thing that only got introduced in Motorsport with FM7 and it's one of the most arcadish things you can do to increase difficulty in an artificial way.

However I could still be wrong and my findings are placebo. I'm just trying to make some sense out of it. Otherwise it's pointless to race against Drivatars, just bring back M. Rossi.


You can prove it for yourself by noting that when you change drivatar difficulty and it says downloading new drivatars, it doesn't actually download anything.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
#9 Posted : Sunday, July 12, 2020 9:43:38 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: nortsable Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post


None of the AI is based on real player data any more, they're all generic AI.


Not only that, despite Microsoft's claims it's probably the AAA racing game title with the least human-like AI out there. It's definitely not imitating the behaviour of the real counterparts in any way. FM7 is even worse.


They have certain bad habits but nothing I haven't seen from real players, in fact I prefer offline racing because the AI plays fairer (except when it gets speed boosts like at Sebring FM7). Best ones in my list usually defend their positions very well. If you're racing clean you need smart driving to win.

In online Forza people divebomb you all the time, offline the divebombing also exists but much more tame. Also, the AI's cars don't behave the same way, they're much heavier and tip you over. This behavior is a Horizon thing that only got introduced in Motorsport with FM7 and it's one of the most arcadish things you can do to increase difficulty in an artificial way.

However I could still be wrong and my findings are placebo. I'm just trying to make some sense out of it. Otherwise it's pointless to race against Drivatars, just bring back M. Rossi.


You can prove it for yourself by noting that when you change drivatar difficulty and it says downloading new drivatars, it doesn't actually download anything.


Why would it need to download anything when the list remains the same? FH4 is not like 2 and 3, all of the Drivatars are your friends, or a fixed list for that session.

The message box could be a leftover from older games.

Edited by user Sunday, July 12, 2020 9:44:21 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

May the forced induction be with you.

Alice >>>>>>>>>> Keira
Rank: R-Class Racing License
 2 users liked this post.
#10 Posted : Sunday, July 12, 2020 10:15:04 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: nortsable Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post


None of the AI is based on real player data any more, they're all generic AI.


Not only that, despite Microsoft's claims it's probably the AAA racing game title with the least human-like AI out there. It's definitely not imitating the behaviour of the real counterparts in any way. FM7 is even worse.


They have certain bad habits but nothing I haven't seen from real players, in fact I prefer offline racing because the AI plays fairer (except when it gets speed boosts like at Sebring FM7). Best ones in my list usually defend their positions very well. If you're racing clean you need smart driving to win.

In online Forza people divebomb you all the time, offline the divebombing also exists but much more tame. Also, the AI's cars don't behave the same way, they're much heavier and tip you over. This behavior is a Horizon thing that only got introduced in Motorsport with FM7 and it's one of the most arcadish things you can do to increase difficulty in an artificial way.

However I could still be wrong and my findings are placebo. I'm just trying to make some sense out of it. Otherwise it's pointless to race against Drivatars, just bring back M. Rossi.


You can prove it for yourself by noting that when you change drivatar difficulty and it says downloading new drivatars, it doesn't actually download anything.


Why would it need to download anything when the list remains the same? FH4 is not like 2 and 3, all of the Drivatars are your friends, or a fixed list for that session.

The message box could be a leftover from older games.


Regardless, the drivatars bear no relation to any real people on my friends list, it's just a clever bit of marketing that someone dreamt up which they thought sounded impressive, when the reality is that Forza's AI is the worst in the industry.

It is actually worrying that someone tested it and thought 'yep that is acceptable'.

Here's what I would do if I was in charge. I'd speak to my top people and ask them who in the company can sort out the AI and make it half decent at least. Can anyone do it? If nobody knows how to do it, we need to hire someone who can do it. I bet that would work.

They could do the same for the replays, and the - well, all the other things that need fixing. Get people to fix them. If nobody is skilled or bothered enough to do it, get new people in to do it.

Edited by user Sunday, July 12, 2020 10:19:02 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#11 Posted : Sunday, July 12, 2020 10:42:59 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: nortsable Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post

None of the AI is based on real player data any more, they're all generic AI.
Not only that, despite Microsoft's claims it's probably the AAA racing game title with the least human-like AI out there. It's definitely not imitating the behaviour of the real counterparts in any way. FM7 is even worse.
They have certain bad habits but nothing I haven't seen from real players, in fact I prefer offline racing because the AI plays fairer (except when it gets speed boosts like at Sebring FM7). Best ones in my list usually defend their positions very well. If you're racing clean you need smart driving to win.In online Forza people divebomb you all the time, offline the divebombing also exists but much more tame. Also, the AI's cars don't behave the same way, they're much heavier and tip you over. This behavior is a Horizon thing that only got introduced in Motorsport with FM7 and it's one of the most arcadish things you can do to increase difficulty in an artificial way.
However I could still be wrong and my findings are placebo. I'm just trying to make some sense out of it. Otherwise it's pointless to race against Drivatars, just bring back M. Rossi.

You can prove it for yourself by noting that when you change drivatar difficulty and it says downloading new drivatars, it doesn't actually download anything.

Why would it need to download anything when the list remains the same? FH4 is not like 2 and 3, all of the Drivatars are your friends, or a fixed list for that session.
The message box could be a leftover from older games.
Er, ...when I change the event difficulty, I get a new lineup and usually between 25-50% of the lineup will change... 🤷🏻‍♂️
Along with friends, drivatars can include clubmates, which aren't necessarily going to be "friends," so perhaps there's an element to that requiring something to download...

Edited by user Wednesday, March 31, 2021 2:58:41 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

"Every train needs a caboose, right?"
Rank: Racing Permit
#12 Posted : Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:30:39 AM(UTC)
reguarding the race line up i think it has to do with your driven stats. and each race has a different line up based on how well you perform in those events and the difficulty of the track to make as equal of a challenge to the difficulty set. i.e. your personal performance scoring, vs current like scores, vs track skill level, vs set difficulty, equals line up. but thats just my theory...
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#13 Posted : Tuesday, March 30, 2021 9:45:12 AM(UTC)


" Microsoft statement: "Drivatars emulate the player's driving habits"

Microsoft is 100% correct. "


123% BS. Microsoft has copied the drivatars from GTA3 but made them even worse.
Gt: fairlane305
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#14 Posted : Tuesday, March 30, 2021 11:54:46 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
Forza's AI is the worst in the industry.

GT Sport's is worse than Forza. ACC has the best AI of racing games I've played, races very similarly to a clean top 0.1% human. Forza's AI is actually super-timid, IMO, it yields to the player too readily. ACC's AI is much more willing to go for aggressive overtakes, but at the same time it will back out at the last instant if it doesn't have enough overlap. It will race you side by side through a chicane, both giving space and expecting to be given space.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#15 Posted : Tuesday, March 30, 2021 12:03:04 PM(UTC)
As an example of what I mean by the AI being overly timid, I remembered there being examples of it when I recorded this video. If you look at 1:10, the car on the outside on my left yields far too readily. It has space to hold the outside line and back out much later if its nose is still behind my nose and I end up using all the space on the left on the corner exit, but we're a long way from that point and it just slows right down and yields the corner to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB6CuCuXeSI

Okay, it's only highly skilled rather than unbeatable, but it just makes them so easy to beat when they yield the corner so readily. Unbeatable still does the same thing.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
#16 Posted : Tuesday, March 30, 2021 9:57:52 PM(UTC)
The Ai seems to be gradually changing, it's not too bad apart from when they zoom ahead in front at 300mph in a mustang.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#17 Posted : Wednesday, March 31, 2021 2:17:45 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: breeminator Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
Forza's AI is the worst in the industry.

GT Sport's is worse than Forza. ACC has the best AI of racing games I've played, races very similarly to a clean top 0.1% human. Forza's AI is actually super-timid, IMO, it yields to the player too readily. ACC's AI is much more willing to go for aggressive overtakes, but at the same time it will back out at the last instant if it doesn't have enough overlap. It will race you side by side through a chicane, both giving space and expecting to be given space.


That's part of what I mean, its timidity is absurd.

Edited by user Wednesday, March 31, 2021 2:18:21 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#18 Posted : Saturday, May 1, 2021 7:25:42 AM(UTC)
tame A.I. my tushy!!! ive finaly had the pleasure of haveing a good few races against non agro drivitar opponents that have been showing me just how rusty at racing i still am right now and am loving it. finally getting the right type of pressure to push me to my limits again!! and to the regallia statement if your refering to the big green viking helmet wearing droopy pants regalia. i promise you that the driver never means to hinder his team mates and has gotten and is still getting much better and will always drive to be the best racing partner that he can become!! 😎 and back to the a.i. issues it would be great if yall could atleast make the necessary adjustments to atleast make it so they cant just shove you out of bounds as easily as if they were using dump trucks to push shopping carts around. take that away from them and im pritty sure we or atleast i definatly would be happy with just that...
Rank: Racing Permit
#19 Posted : Saturday, May 1, 2021 7:31:37 AM(UTC)
p.s. reguarding a.i. corner yeilding for you.. must be nice to have it go that easy for you im kinda jealous because ive yet to see that ever happen for me.. most of the ones i go up against definatly have thier truck nutz on
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#20 Posted : Saturday, May 1, 2021 12:11:00 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: JamesRyder2100 Go to Quoted Post
p.s. reguarding a.i. corner yeilding for you.. must be nice to have it go that easy for you im kinda jealous because ive yet to see that ever happen for me.. most of the ones i go up against definatly have thier truck nutz on


They don't yield as much as they take corners too slowly most of the time, that's usually how I pass them to take the lead. As for the wrecking, that has nothing to do with how other players drive, especially in offline seasonal events.
I don't wreck the AI, that only slows you down as the others out front just keep going, but I do have AI constantly trying to wreck me. Sure, occasionally there's mild contact in passing in corners by me, my car may slide more than intended for instance, but nowhere near trying to push them into a wall or off checkpoints.

Notification

Icon
Error