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Rank: Driver's License
 6 users liked this post.
#26 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 9:19:56 AM(UTC)
Painting is a freedom of expression, The fact that 2 Very famous liveries like the general lee and the rising sun will be banned is pathetic. I remember when people used to laugh at the phrase “political correctness gone mad” but it actually now seems like it has. If you’re going to start removing things people will be offended by, You might as well make every car colour primer. What next, Drag tires removed because it’s offensive to the lgbtq community ? This is genuinely upsetting and I hope all the good painters out there are not affected
Rank: Driver's Permit
 4 users liked this post.
#27 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 10:08:43 AM(UTC)
If I have to be totally honest, this politically correct being where anything that can lead to racism or violence is starting to be out of control.

If a person does not accept something or simply thinks otherwise, it is not fair to force to think to be accepted by force.. In this case I think it is incredibly stupid to ban users for inserting a flag in their livery, especially when there are some cars such as Ferraris that may have stripes with the theme of the Italian flag .. or the well-known Mini Cooper that can have the English flag on the roof.

We will just miss the behavior of the people who remove the Pagani Huayra livery, complete with a carpet search for those who simply did not love the livery and want to bring it back as it had left the factory and then ban them all.

*Sorry for my bad english*
Rank: Driver's Permit
 7 users liked this post.
#28 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 11:33:08 AM(UTC)
everything is offensive in [insert current year]
Rank: C-Class Racing License
 5 users liked this post.
#29 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 11:59:33 AM(UTC)
When you launch the game, I think a pop-up message should happen and a grace period. I'm sure most gamers are just downloading designs and not thinking of hate. To assume the worst of your fanbase is a bit reaching.

You can have the General Lee, just without the flag on top, use the American flag instead or a better substitute would be General Grant.
https://i.imgur.com/QRExtJM.jpg

I'd like to hear Max or someone put a clear statement on Liberty Walk. Most designs have the Japanese Rising Sun flag and I've seen Japanese gamers responding on twitter that it's not offensive and still being used today. Should we delete these off our cars just in case?

I think removing the Super Sport badges back in 2016 and still hasn't returned, is a bigger issue and then pretending this was a GM directive, while they continue to use SS around the world and other racing games still have it, shows that MS was being a bit paranoid on all this. Cars with the Super Sport badges have ZERO to do with past historical conflicts. Shouldn't "edit" history for historical cars for fake perceptions from non-gamer, non-car folks.

Edited by user Saturday, June 27, 2020 12:01:17 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
 2 users liked this post.
#30 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 12:19:14 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Sendo Tenshi Go to Quoted Post
When you launch the game, I think a pop-up message should happen and a grace period. I'm sure most gamers are just downloading designs and not thinking of hate. To assume the worst of your fanbase is a bit reaching.

You can have the General Lee, just without the flag on top, use the American flag instead or a better substitute would be General Grant.
https://i.imgur.com/QRExtJM.jpg

I'd like to hear Max or someone put a clear statement on Liberty Walk. Most designs have the Japanese Rising Sun flag and I've seen Japanese gamers responding on twitter that it's not offensive and still being used today. Should we delete these off our cars just in case?

I think removing the Super Sport badges back in 2016 and still hasn't returned, is a bigger issue and then pretending this was a GM directive, while they continue to use SS around the world and other racing games still have it, shows that MS was being a bit paranoid on all this. Cars with the Super Sport badges have ZERO to do with past historical conflicts. Shouldn't "edit" history for historical cars for fake perceptions from non-gamer, non-car folks.


IIRC there's quite a few people who paint German WW2 plane liveries on classic German cars (without the swastika ofc). Some of these people are... prominent.
R.I.P. 24 Heures du Mans

26/05/1923 - 17/06/2018
Rank: Driver's License
 4 users liked this post.
#31 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 12:56:53 PM(UTC)
If we all jump on the bandwagon then the terrorists have won!!
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#32 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 1:21:07 PM(UTC)
Yikes. Liberty Walk sells items with the Rising Sun on their own website. http://lb-store.com/products/list?category_id=84

I guess the next Forza games won't have LB bodykits anymore.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
 5 users liked this post.
#33 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 1:48:54 PM(UTC)
The confederate flag is widely known as a racist symbol by now but the rising sun? I have that on a livery I downloaded and I had no idea. To issue immediate bans is outrageous. There should be at least a couple of warnings. I would say that most players don't follow the forza twitter account and aren't even aware of the forum. How are those people supposed to know about the implementation of new rules? Even if they sent an in game message and gave people a time limit to remove liveries, there are people who play the game infrequently who wouldn't see it until it was too late.

The only way to handle this fairly is for the devs to actually do some work and put the onus on themselves to remove those symbols from the game. After typing this I thought about how difficult it would be to manually remove them and virtually impossible to automate. That being said, checking social media and the forum are not a requirement for playing the game and punishing players for not doing so is unacceptable. While I have no time for racists, I wouldn't mind someone with too much time and money mounting a legal challenge against these bans.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
 2 users liked this post.
#34 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 2:00:59 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Sendo Tenshi Go to Quoted Post
Yikes. Liberty Walk sells items with the Rising Sun on their own website. http://lb-store.com/products/list?category_id=84

I guess the next Forza games won't have LB bodykits anymore.


I also imagine the Japanese gaming market and public generally won't be too impressed at their treasured cultural icon being called a hate symbol. Perhaps MS thinks it is worth offending them to win favour with those who don't like the Japanese? Seems like a can of worms they could have left well alone, but they decided to pry it wide open.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
 3 users liked this post.
#35 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 2:01:24 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RED RIDER NL Go to Quoted Post
The confederate flag is widely known as a racist symbol by now but the rising sun? I have that on a livery I downloaded and I had no idea. To issue immediate bans is outrageous. There should be at least a couple of warnings. I would say that most players don't follow the forza twitter account and aren't even aware of the forum. How are those people supposed to know about the implementation of new rules? Even if they sent an in game message and gave people a time limit to remove liveries, there are people who play the game infrequently who wouldn't see it until it was too late.

The only way to handle this fairly is for the devs to actually do some work and put the onus on themselves to remove those symbols from the game. After typing this I thought about how difficult it would be to manually remove them and virtually impossible to automate. That being said, checking social media and the forum are not a requirement for playing the game and punishing players for not doing so is unacceptable. While I have no time for racists, I wouldn't mind someone with too much time and money mounting a legal challenge against these bans.


IMO the biggest issue is that the flag was appropriated by a racist organization in the 1950s but the main reason people know of it today were cars from old TV shows which obviously didn't wave the flag with racist intent. In The Dukes of Hazzard (and Smokey and the Bandit), the Confederate flag is indeed used as a symbol of heritage, not hate, and is appreciated for the same reason Burt Reynolds was: an icon of rural America.

Edited by user Saturday, June 27, 2020 2:02:39 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

R.I.P. 24 Heures du Mans

26/05/1923 - 17/06/2018
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#36 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 2:10:53 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RED RIDER NL Go to Quoted Post
The confederate flag is widely known as a racist symbol by now but the rising sun? I have that on a livery I downloaded and I had no idea. To issue immediate bans is outrageous. There should be at least a couple of warnings. I would say that most players don't follow the forza twitter account and aren't even aware of the forum. How are those people supposed to know about the implementation of new rules? Even if they sent an in game message and gave people a time limit to remove liveries, there are people who play the game infrequently who wouldn't see it until it was too late.

The only way to handle this fairly is for the devs to actually do some work and put the onus on themselves to remove those symbols from the game. After typing this I thought about how difficult it would be to manually remove them and virtually impossible to automate. That being said, checking social media and the forum are not a requirement for playing the game and punishing players for not doing so is unacceptable. While I have no time for racists, I wouldn't mind someone with too much time and money mounting a legal challenge against these bans.


The way to handle this fairly would have been to leave it as it is, anyone finding the General Lee offensive and labelling it as a support of slavery is making an issue where there isn't one.

We'll never know but what are the motivations behind this? Has somebody or several people complained to PG? Or is this just some bizarre unprovoked effort at PR that will do nothing except make the company drop in it's most loyal players' estimations?

It's a car game, removing iconic designs for them that people will have worked hard on perfecting helps nobody.

Perhaps this should tell people the audience the Horizon franchise is aiming towards now, were it mainly for car people this wouldn't be happening, car people see the design and think of the car itself or memories of seeing said car on TV, in books/magazines or if very fortunate in real life, they don't think of racism and slavery because it's nothing to do with the car, never has been and never will.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
 4 users liked this post.
#37 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 2:32:04 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Sendo Tenshi Go to Quoted Post
Yikes. Liberty Walk sells items with the Rising Sun on their own website. http://lb-store.com/products/list?category_id=84

I guess the next Forza games won't have LB bodykits anymore.


I also imagine the Japanese gaming market and public generally won't be too impressed at their treasured cultural icon being called a hate symbol. Perhaps MS thinks it is worth offending them to win favour with those who don't like the Japanese? Seems like a can of worms they could have left well alone, but they decided to pry it wide open.


I mean it could mean that Japan has a better PR department to normalize it to the point most don't think anything about it? I'm not going to tell folks how they should feel about it. I think most designers who used this with Liberty Walk and other product decals were just creating real-life replicas. Ultimately, it's up to team Forza here.

If Turn 10/Playground are going to go all in on offensive icons, I would like the Hammer and Sickle and any other communist/Marxist symbols to be part of that ban. It's a gross symbol with millions of deaths attributed to it. I'm pretty sure many gamers have relatives who've lived under the Iron Curtain/Eastern Bloc/Soviet Union and don't appreciate that symbol. The symbol is also used by current day China, a country who has no problem putting Uighurs into camps.

Here's the thing, this isn't an applause moment for Forza or anyone at Forza responsible for this, banning stuff of the past is easy.
Rank: Racing Permit
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#38 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 3:39:28 PM(UTC)
If we're going to ban the rising sun flag, which is still used by the JMSDF who works with the US Navy, then we should ban the PRC Chinese flag. They have over 3 million people in concentration camps as we speak, all because of their ethnicity and religion. If T-10 is going to go down this road, then we need to make sure that modern **** are banned from the platform as well.
Rank: Driver's Permit
 3 users liked this post.
#39 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 6:05:10 PM(UTC)
The Japanese government's position on Rising Sun is "no problem".

Ministry of foreign affairs of Japan OFFICIAL PDF(ENGLISH)
https://www.mofa.go.jp/mofaj/files/000481576.pdf

U.S. government investigations have found no evidence of Japan wrongdoing.
https://www.archives.gov...ts/final-report-2007.pdf


Turn 10, Xbox, Microsoft banned Rising Sun based on inaccurate information We will be contacting Microsoft Japan to discuss this matter. This decision has led some companies to believe that they should not provide cars to Forza, like Toyota, and I think it's coming.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
#40 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 7:04:17 PM(UTC)
.

Edited by user Saturday, June 27, 2020 7:36:55 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: R-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#41 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 7:28:25 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
To me it's like removing the "SS" from the cars because it supposedly offends Jews.

Might as well remove the Beetle from the game, since we all know how the Beetle was created. Or remove the Auto Union and Mercedes, whose sporting successes were sponsored by... well, you know.


I agree. It's a bit of a stretch to ban the use on a livery of one of the most famous TV cars of all time. If it was being used with actual racial intent, to try and generate hate, or incite fear or intentionally offend someone I could see an argument for it. Now people actually being able to determine intent is like people having common sense in this day and age, very few and far between.

Are we going to remove all Ford vehicles from the game because Henry Ford was a huge backer of a certain leader in 1930's and 1940's Germany?

Are we going to remove all vehicles in the game that use parts manufactured by Bosch (from lights and filters, right on through to injectors) because they had a hand in the construction of the gas chambers at the concentration camps? They also used slave labour to build these and other products around that time.

Is use of the United Kingdom flag going to be banned from use on the likes of the Mini's? A few of them now incorporate this design into the rear lights of the car. The flags inside of this, and the flag itself surely was flown at the events of numerous atrocities, some even including slavery over the years.

The Italian flag in many racing liveries? The country committed multiple atrocities as well during the wars.

The American flag, the Willy's Jeep, the Hummers, etc etc. I could go on.

I could come up with a lot more examples but these are a few right off the top of my head.

Edited by user Saturday, June 27, 2020 7:36:33 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
User is suspended until 8/8/2020 7:11:34 AM(UTC)
#42 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 7:55:56 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: nik666uk Go to Quoted Post
If we all jump on the bandwagon then the terrorists have won!!


Take a look around, the terrorist won long ago.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
 2 users liked this post.
User is suspended until 8/8/2020 7:11:34 AM(UTC)
#43 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 8:06:32 PM(UTC)
You’re mixing country flags with the flag of a failed secession from the United States. Country flags are symbolic of the country itself, learning and growing despite past mistakes. The confederate flag is a flag used by racist to show that they supported the movement of the south during civil war(which was fought because of slavery). Yeah, the general lee uses it, who cares? The show itself may not be racist, that’s not the topic, the flag however is a symbol of racism and suppression.

Why support racist losers? The flag itself is still being used by completely far right racist groups such as the modern KKK and the Proud Boys.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
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#44 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 8:26:36 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Clutch63 Go to Quoted Post
You’re mixing country flags with the flag of a failed secession from the United States. Country flags are symbolic of the country itself, learning and growing despite past mistakes. The confederate flag is a flag used by racist to show that they supported the movement of the south during civil war(which was fought because of slavery). Yeah, the general lee uses it, who cares? The show itself may not be racist, that’s not the topic, the flag however is a symbol of racism and suppression.

Why support racist losers? The flag itself is still being used by completely far right racist groups such as the modern KKK and the Proud Boys.


I don't know about America, but I've certainly seen the UK flag being flown at numerous Anti-BLM marches and protests in this country. It's also often touted during actions standing against immigration. Does that mean it's now a racially insensitive flag? I'll be honest, I don't see the difference from where I'm standing.

Edited by user Saturday, June 27, 2020 8:28:39 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
 2 users liked this post.
#45 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 8:42:49 PM(UTC)
Some of the flags mentioned are representative of countries but the confederate flag only represents traitors who wanted to keep slaves. Regardless of where else it was used, that's what it represents. It's obvious it shouldn't be in the game. My problem is with the implementation of the rule. As I said earlier, not everyone is going to see the forum or twitter post, some people just play the game. You can't implement a rule against something that already exists in the game and immediately ban people for it without adequate warning through in game messages.
Rank: Driver's Permit
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#46 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 9:37:48 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: WangKeRui Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: The Last Flight Go to Quoted Post
People won't call u racist for driving a Beetle aund ...


Oh yes they will on occasion (well not racist, t it is in the word asciated with said aning), often yes as a joke, but still will be said towards people who drive/own old Volkswagens and/or are ns of them



I can 100% guarantee this has never happened and you're making rubbish up to try and 'win' an argument.
Rank: Driver's Permit
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#47 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 9:45:22 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: TransAmConnor Go to Quoted Post
[quote=Clutch63;1166197]You’re mixing country flags with the flag of a failed secession from the United States. Country flags are symbolic of the country itself, learning and growing spite past mistakes. The confederate flag is a flag used by racist to show that they supported the movement of the south ring civil war(which was fought because of slavery). Yeah, the geral lee uses it, who cares? The show ilf y not be racist, that’s not the toc, the flag however is a symbol of racism and suppression.

Why support racist losers? The flag itself is still ing used by completely far right cist groups ch as the morn KKK and the Proud Boys.[/quo]

I don't know about America, t I've certainly seen the UK flag being flown at numerous Anti-BLM marches and protests in this country. It's also often touted during actions standing ainst immigration. Does that mean it's now a racially insensitive flag? I'll be host, I don't see the difference from where I'm standing.


Christ it's embarrassing I even have to explain this.

The flag traditionally considered the Confederate flag was ONLY used by the Confederacy in their drive to keep slavery legal and to push their ideals of white supremacy. That's what the civil war was about. The South was feeling threatened by the non-redneck states trying to abolish slavery, and started a war over it.

The Union Jack has been symbolic of the UK for many years. It doesnt stand for one ideology, it stands for the country itself. Waving a country flag at a rally doesnt immediately make that flag representative of whatever ideology is waving it. Otherwise, the US flag has been flown at plenty of white supremacist rallies. By your logic, that makes the US flag a white supremacist flag because some cousin marrying people with 3 teeth decided to take it to their idiotic rally.

The only time the Confederate flag was been used widespread was to represent an army fighting for white supremacy. The fact you somehow dont see the difference is seriously embarrassing, and I'm not even American and I know this.
Rank: Racing Permit
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#48 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 9:47:43 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ManteoMax Go to Quoted Post
Announced on June 26:

"Our goal is to create a safe, secure, inclusive, and enjoyable experience for all players. Moving forward, the use of the Confederate flag on any car and under any circumstances will be categorized as a "Notorious iconography" in our enforcement guidelines and its use will result in a ban."

https://twitter.com/forza_support/status/1276621666278232064



One of the most well-known examples of this would be the Dodge Charger livery from The Dukes of Hazzard.

Please remember that specific enforcement cases are not open for discussion on the forums; if you are affected by this policy and have questions they need to be directed via ticket at Forza Support.



If you're going to ban this flag, get rid of the '69 charger as well. No point in banning the flag on this car cause absolutely NO ONE hates the General Lee. No it wasn't a car promoting hatred, it was an icon of a show. Just now learning about this is one of the biggest reasons (besides the last 6-8 series trials/season races that were total garbage, not a single good race besides the B Class offroad trials race which was the special division "Heavy Hitters". And YOU EVEN GOT THAT WRONG by including the 1931 Bentley 8-Liter but you COULDN'T SELECT IT FOR THE RACE!! EVEN THOUGH ITS RIGHT THERE WHEN YOU CLICK "VIEW CARS" IN THE CUSTOM RACE SCREEN!! ) why the Forza franchise is falling apart. You're a game company. Your say has almost no use to racial problems and the fact that you thought "holding an update due to this" was even a fathomable idea means you get paid too much money for the job you do. Make better series races, don't get involved with something you can't help.

Anyone who has a problem with this can message me directly.


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#49 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 9:52:11 PM(UTC)
If you're going to ban this flag, get rid of the '69 charger as well. No point in banning the flag on this car cause absolutely NO ONE hates the General Lee. No it wasn't a car promoting hatred, it was an icon of a show.

Just now learning about this is one of the biggest reasons (besides the last 6-8 series trials/season races that were total garbage, not a single good race besides the B Class offroad trials race which was the special division "Heavy Hitters". And YOU EVEN GET THAT WRONG by including the 1931 Bentley 8-Liter but you COULDN'T SELECT IT FOR THE RACE!! EVEN THOUGH ITS RIGHT THERE WHEN YOU CLICK "VIEW CARS" IN THE CUSTOM RACE SCREEN!! ) why the Forza franchise is falling apart.

You're a game company. Your say has almost no use to racial problems and the fact that you thought "holding an update due to this" was even a fathomable idea means you get paid too much money for the job you do. Make better series races, don't get involved with something you can't help.

Anyone who has a problem with this can message me directly.
#TeamTreefer Captain
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Rank: Racing Permit
 5 users liked this post.
#50 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 10:01:52 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: dR3K0b Go to Quoted Post
If you're going to ban this flag, get rid of the '69 charger as well


And that is where I stopped reading.
Auction house sniper and car flipper.
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