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Rank: C-Class Racing License
#76 Posted : Saturday, June 13, 2020 8:39:10 PM(UTC)
...

Edited by user Saturday, June 13, 2020 11:01:04 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Every train needs a caboose, right?
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#77 Posted : Saturday, June 13, 2020 10:59:46 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: markvii1 Go to Quoted Post
Something about the upgrade system in Forza games gives the vintage cars unbelievably good handling once upgraded. It has been this way since at least Forza 4 with the 1940 Ford Business Coupe.

The Barrett Jackson cars that are the best are the older ones, like the bubble top and the hula girl. The bone shaker fell into this as well, as does the Jeep CJ5 and in past games the grand wagoneer.

In real life these cars would handle terribly ( I own a grand wagoneer 1988 and if you go around a corner with vigor it WILL flip over) but for some reason in Forza they handle exceptionally well.

It probably has a lot to do with the game limiting lateral body roll so that the cars won’t flip over unless destabilized by running over a bump. The stiff suspension coupled with grippy tires allows high g forces to be applied with no risk of rolling over.


Not disputing markvii whatsoever, he may very well be right, but I think it might be even simpler than that. As a whole, Barrett Jackson IS an extremely useful group, much more so in comparison to the traditional offerings of Forzas-past. But with keeping the new H4 business model in mind, I suspect that the reason BJ is powered the way that it is has less to do with the pack make/model makeup and more to do with the fact that since there isn't much else offered in the form of premium DLC, what little that IS offered HAS to be good/SHOULD be good (or have palpable value relative to its cost). In other words, why shouldn't Barrett Jackson be a formidable pack? It makes absolutely zero sense for a dev team to put out some low-quality, Junkyard Jalopy pack of Chevy Chevettes and Ford Pintos if they only have one or two real shots at generating DLC revenue.

Every train needs a caboose, right?
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#78 Posted : Sunday, June 14, 2020 1:12:46 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: YAMETEEEEEEEEEE Go to Quoted Post
[Mod Edit - thread merged - MM]

nerf barrett-jackson cars
or make the pack free
as it is now, if you own the pack you have no competition in A class races, making the game pay-to-win


This must be news to the people I've frequently beaten in those cars while using a TZ2.

If you use a TZ2 or Nova FE you will be competitive, if you are good enough.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#79 Posted : Sunday, June 14, 2020 3:44:21 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
This must be news to the people I've frequently beaten in those cars while using a TZ2.
If you use a TZ2 or Nova FE you will be competitive, if you are good enough.


Agreed. I once used Exquitt's NSX tune in A class and managed to secure 4th with 12th as the starting position. Banning cars is not the proper solution. We could just ban almost every single car and end up like forza motorsport 7. I stopped taking ranked seriously after finding out how trueskill works with a poor matchmaking system. Fingers crossed for the implementation of trueskill2 someday.

Edited by user Sunday, June 14, 2020 6:34:35 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#80 Posted : Sunday, June 14, 2020 5:45:54 AM(UTC)
The Atomic Punk and Roadster simply are the embodiment of the flaws of the PI system.
- light. The lighter a car the stronger the Forza aero gets because the values don't scale with weight. 100 rear-aero on a 700kg car is way more potent than 100 rear-aero on two tons.
- wide rear tires, thin front tires.
- above effects are enhanced by an AWD swap because then rear tire width decreases PI and rear-aero in most cases too while still providing the benefits.
- race diff doesn't cost any PI although it significantly improves AWD builds.


Then of course we have the problems with PI not aknowledging the full potential of engines.
Today I was building my '59 Cadi for B700 and used the obligatory V8+centrifugal supercharger swap.
This picture shows the flaws very clearly:


Changing from the centrifugal supercharger to the normal supercharger provides 0 max bhp and ~ 50Nm more torgue - for the ludicrous cost of 14 PI!
As it can be seen by the power graph I would mostly pay the PI for improvements at low rpm which I'll never need. Even with its stock 4 gears the widest gears start at 4.400 rpm if the engine is over-revved at the former gear. The difference from 4.400 rpm to max is very small and thus the real performance gain during racing would be barely existent - at the cost of 14 PI.

The game simpy doesn't consider the potential of over-revving and the uselessness of low rpm characteristics. A reason why all modern turbocharged engines (AMG V8, McLaren V8, 488GTB, all Astons, BMW and Audi) are underperforming against the high-rpm/high-value engines like the Racing V12, Lambo V10 or engines that can fit a centrifugal supercharger. We are paying the PI cost for 900Nm torgue at 2.000 rpm which are useful in real-life but only a PI waste in-game.

What I try to convey: The unbalance mostly comes from the system itself. Thus, nerfing single cars won't achieve that much - aside from broken ones like the Track-Tor (or the Peels).
On the other side of the performance ranking we have the Rimac, Zenvo or Challenger Demon/Charger Hellcat which are extremely overrated - mostly due to flaws in the system.
The Rimac is somewhat special and the result of a major misjudgment by the programmers. I play Forza seriously since Forza 2 and the Rimac has to be worst balanced car I've ever seen across all titles.

Edited by user Sunday, June 14, 2020 5:52:58 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#81 Posted : Sunday, June 14, 2020 6:01:17 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Rayne SE Go to Quoted Post
The Atomic Punk and Roadster simply are the embodiment of the flaws of the PI system.
- light. The lighter a car the stronger the Forza aero gets because the values don't scale with weight. 100 rear-aero on a 700kg car is way more potent than 100 rear-aero on two tons.
- wide rear tires, thin front tires.
- above effects are enhanced by an AWD swap because then rear tire width decreases PI and rear-aero in most cases too while still providing the benefits.
- race diff doesn't cost any PI although it significantly improves AWD builds.


Then of course we have the problems with PI not aknowledging the full potential of engines.
Today I was building my '59 Cadi for B700 and used the obligatory V8+centrifugal supercharger swap.
This picture shows the flaws very clearly:


Changing from the centrifugal supercharger to the normal supercharger provides 0 max bhp and ~ 50Nm more torgue - for the ludicrous cost of 14 PI!
As it can be seen by the power graph I would mostly pay the PI for improvements at low rpm which I'll never need. Even with its stock 4 gears the widest gears start at 4.400 rpm if the engine is over-revved at the former gear. The difference from 4.400 rpm to max is very small and thus the real performance gain during racing would be barely existent - at the cost of 14 PI.

The game simpy doesn't consider the potential of over-revving and the uselessness of low rpm characteristics. A reason why all modern turbocharged engines (AMG V8, McLaren V8, 488GTB, all Astons, BMW and Audi) are underperforming against the high-rpm/high-value engines like the Racing V12, Lambo V10 or engines that can fit a centrifugal supercharger. We are paying the PI cost for 900Nm torgue at 2.000 rpm which are useful in real-life but only a PI waste in-game.

What I try to convey: The unbalance mostly comes from the system itself. Thus, nerfing single cars won't achieve that much - aside from broken ones like the Track-Tor (or the Peels).
On the other side of the performance ranking we have the Rimac, Zenvo or Challenger Demon/Charger Hellcat which are extremely overrated - mostly due to flaws in the system.
The Rimac is somewhat special and the result of a major misjudgment by the programmers. I play Forza seriously since Forza 2 and the Rimac has to be worst balanced car I've ever seen across all titles.


You seriously are the brain when it comes to racing. I appreciate your thoughts and knowledge, it helps me understand heaps when i do my tunes.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#82 Posted : Sunday, June 14, 2020 6:34:13 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Rayne SE Go to Quoted Post
The Atomic Punk and Roadster simply are the embodiment of the flaws of the PI system.
- light. The lighter a car the stronger the Forza aero gets because the values don't scale with weight. 100 rear-aero on a 700kg car is way more potent than 100 rear-aero on two tons.
- wide rear tires, thin front tires.
- above effects are enhanced by an AWD swap because then rear tire width decreases PI and rear-aero in most cases too while still providing the benefits.
- race diff doesn't cost any PI although it significantly improves AWD builds.


Then of course we have the problems with PI not aknowledging the full potential of engines.
Today I was building my '59 Cadi for B700 and used the obligatory V8+centrifugal supercharger swap.
This picture shows the flaws very clearly:


Changing from the centrifugal supercharger to the normal supercharger provides 0 max bhp and ~ 50Nm more torgue - for the ludicrous cost of 14 PI!
As it can be seen by the power graph I would mostly pay the PI for improvements at low rpm which I'll never need. Even with its stock 4 gears the widest gears start at 4.400 rpm if the engine is over-revved at the former gear. The difference from 4.400 rpm to max is very small and thus the real performance gain during racing would be barely existent - at the cost of 14 PI.

The game simpy doesn't consider the potential of over-revving and the uselessness of low rpm characteristics. A reason why all modern turbocharged engines (AMG V8, McLaren V8, 488GTB, all Astons, BMW and Audi) are underperforming against the high-rpm/high-value engines like the Racing V12, Lambo V10 or engines that can fit a centrifugal supercharger. We are paying the PI cost for 900Nm torgue at 2.000 rpm which are useful in real-life but only a PI waste in-game.

What I try to convey: The unbalance mostly comes from the system itself. Thus, nerfing single cars won't achieve that much - aside from broken ones like the Track-Tor (or the Peels).
On the other side of the performance ranking we have the Rimac, Zenvo or Challenger Demon/Charger Hellcat which are extremely overrated - mostly due to flaws in the system.
The Rimac is somewhat special and the result of a major misjudgment by the programmers. I play Forza seriously since Forza 2 and the Rimac has to be worst balanced car I've ever seen across all titles.


Thank you (danke Dir) for your insight. I wholly agree that the whole PI system needs to be readjusted. Boosting the performance of AWD to make it easier for new players to play the game with ease has created so much imbalance in the game and makes tuning such a hassle. Use the story modes to teach players how to drive different transmissions, different cars classes instead of the current delivery stuff.

Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#83 Posted : Sunday, June 14, 2020 10:31:18 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: YAMETEEEEEEEEEE Go to Quoted Post
[Mod Edit - thread merged - MM]

nerf barrett-jackson cars
or make the pack free
as it is now, if you own the pack you have no competition in A class races, making the game pay-to-win


Unranked adventure just now, these were very close races (autumn).

(note the lap times in the first one)





There are plenty of A class cars which are competitive in the hands of a skilled driver. Likewise the Roadster is no easy win machine, the fast drag tunes are a real handful especially in the wet.


And another just now of me in a TZ2 against a Roadster, Autumn and wet again.

Edited by user Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:13:26 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#84 Posted : Sunday, June 14, 2020 4:38:55 PM(UTC)
Some guys in there talked about the PI flaws so I would write my opinion too.

First off all: Torque. Torque seems to extremely PI costly despite it barely affects the car. V12 racing and V8+ centrifugal are the best engines in game because of that and that is exactly why Trucks are awful. 6000 kgfm torque is wasting a o lot of PI on Iron knight. Thats why A800 Iron knight feels like an A775 car. Because of its high torque, its PI is way too much overrated.

Tire thickness: On awd cars PI rating thinks increasing rear tire thickness wont going to make the car any better so it decrease PI due to added weight. This is not true because increased tire thickness always give car more traction allows car to launch better and corner better. Keeping front tyres thinnest and rear tyres thickest will abuse the PI system to the edge.

Base PI ratings: Some cars seems to have just Low PI ratings for their performance Like Shelby Daytona, Alfa Tz2 or Ford Gt. (Lol you thought Daytona is op because of its rear tyres? No there are dozens of cars that access to same or thicker rear tyres on A class but non of them are as good as daytona)

Shelby monaco stock geatbox: Let me explain how PI calculates gearbox first. The best gearbox (Fully adjustable and instant gear change) Cost 0 PI. Worse gearboxes Cost negative PI costs. For example Ferrari 512S stock gearbox costs -11 PI. An even worse gearbox costs even less. The problem is Shelby Monaco stock gearbox costs around wooping -21 PI which allows car to be put a lot of upgrades if you dont equip race gearbox. When you power build monaco, you actually build a s2 921 car but its not S1 900 because its stock gearbox costs -21 PI. (Dont get me wrong. I very like monaco its the only worthwile rwd car in game. Thanks to this flaw.)

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#85 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2020 1:21:40 AM(UTC)
Whilst I don’t agree with the OP that banning the entire pack is sensible and I wouldn’t make any changes to A class at this stage of the game, i think it’s fair to say there is too small a range of cars that can be competitively used at ranked.

The general position in A class is that there are 4-5 cars (Roadster, Nova FE, Punk, Daytona and TZ2 - in that order probably in dry conditions) which are AWD and very dominant. FN has correctly pointed out that other cars are competitive and we can see that from the Rivals leaderboards but, in general, those will be RWD or FWD power builds which (I) are very slow to start which is not ideal for the short races in FH4 and (ii) are generally much harder to drive so that only the top guys can really use them. Even the guys who can drive them well won’t usually do so at ranked given (I).

I don’t think I’ve lost an.A class race (I pretty much always use one of the first four cars I’ve listed above) to any car other than the Roadster, Punk or Nova FE for a long long time.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#86 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2020 2:24:16 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
Whilst I don’t agree with the OP that banning the entire pack is sensible and I wouldn’t make any changes to A class at this stage of the game, i think it’s fair to say there is too small a range of cars that can be competitively used at ranked.

The general position in A class is that there are 4-5 cars (Roadster, Nova FE, Punk, Daytona and TZ2 - in that order probably in dry conditions) which are AWD and very dominant. FN has correctly pointed out that other cars are competitive and we can see that from the Rivals leaderboards but, in general, those will be RWD or FWD power builds which (I) are very slow to start which is not ideal for the short races in FH4 and (ii) are generally much harder to drive so that only the top guys can really use them. Even the guys who can drive them well won’t usually do so at ranked given (I).

I don’t think I’ve lost an.A class race (I pretty much always use one of the first four cars I’ve listed above) to any car other than the Roadster, Punk or Nova FE for a long long time.


Since I'm not playing Ranked I assume so called "tech-options" like the Lotus 340R for playlists that include Ambleside Village or Festival Circuit are not really a valid option?
Too many disadvantages on the remaining two races?
Couldn't be my 205R an option for the playlist "Elmsdon, Greendale Club and Colossus"? Colossus won't even be a challenge egainst your mentionend cars and with low 53s at Greendale and sub 2:30s on Elmsdon it should perform well enough?

Edited by user Monday, June 15, 2020 2:25:14 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#87 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2020 3:14:44 AM(UTC)
Meta Cars in Unranked Lobbies are weak sauce from start to finish.

What's the point?

Do peeps really want lobbies that players only drive 4 or 5 cars every time? That's slowly what's happening other than new players who are still figuring the system out.

Boring

Perhaps a better solution than Nerfing or Banning is walling off those 5 or 6 cars to Ranked Online Adventure only and keeping them out of Unranked Online Lobbies.

Edited by user Monday, June 15, 2020 3:17:06 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#88 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2020 4:21:35 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Rayne SE Go to Quoted Post
[quote=Jezza14;1164644]Since I'm not playing Ranked I assume so called "tech-options" like the Lotus 340R for playlists that include Ambleside Village or Festival Circuit are not really a valid option?
Too many disadvantages on the remaining two races?
Couldn't be my 205R an option for the playlist "Elmsdon, Greendale Club and Colossus"? Colossus won't even be a challenge egainst your mentionend cars and with low 53s at Greendale and sub 2:30s on Elmsdon it should perform well enough?


I think I have the 340R in my favourites just in case but I’ve never seen a selection where it looks viable to me. The problem is that most of the sprints are power based so you risk losing a lot of positions at any of those and there just aren’t enough high tech circuits - 1st, 1st, 5th doesn’t beat 2nd, 2nd, 1st. I had one event yesterday which was Broadway, Ambleside and Greendale where it might have been an option but it was Winter anyway and, to be honest, I’d need to do some more testing of it before risking it at anything where it was questionable.

As for the 205R, I’m sure it’s competitive in the right hands (as would some of the RWD options) but, certainly with TCS off, for me it requires quite a lot of concentration to deal with the understeer. I’m not sure I’d fancy that with other players knocking into me in a ranked race.
Rank: Driver's License
#89 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2020 4:22:12 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: YAMETEEEEEEEEEE Go to Quoted Post
[Mod Edit - thread merged - MM]

nerf barrett-jackson cars
or make the pack free
as it is now, if you own the pack you have no competition in A class races, making the game pay-to-win


This must be news to the people I've frequently beaten in those cars while using a TZ2.

If you use a TZ2 or Nova FE you will be competitive, if you are good enough.


There is nothing that can beat atomic punk in A dirt races. Your only hope is that the driver sucks.
Again, I would have no problem if the car was included in the base game but putting the best car in a DLC is just a slimy tactic to make profit.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#90 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2020 4:23:54 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: YAMETEEEEEEEEEE Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: YAMETEEEEEEEEEE Go to Quoted Post
[Mod Edit - thread merged - MM]

nerf barrett-jackson cars
or make the pack free
as it is now, if you own the pack you have no competition in A class races, making the game pay-to-win


This must be news to the people I've frequently beaten in those cars while using a TZ2.

If you use a TZ2 or Nova FE you will be competitive, if you are good enough.


There is nothing that can beat atomic punk in A dirt races. Your only hope is that the driver sucks.
Again, I would have no problem if the car was included in the base game but putting the best car in a DLC is just a slimy tactic to make profit.


The Ariel Nomad will beat the Punk at most dirt races - I.e those where there’s actually more dirt than road.

Edited by user Monday, June 15, 2020 4:28:59 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#91 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2020 5:18:56 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: YAMETEEEEEEEEEE Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: YAMETEEEEEEEEEE Go to Quoted Post
[Mod Edit - thread merged - MM]

nerf barrett-jackson cars
or make the pack free
as it is now, if you own the pack you have no competition in A class races, making the game pay-to-win


This must be news to the people I've frequently beaten in those cars while using a TZ2.

If you use a TZ2 or Nova FE you will be competitive, if you are good enough.


There is nothing that can beat atomic punk in A dirt races. Your only hope is that the driver sucks.
Again, I would have no problem if the car was included in the base game but putting the best car in a DLC is just a slimy tactic to make profit.


Nobody is arguing that those DLC cars aren't the best (although even then, not for ALL circumstances). The original contention was that "if you own the pack you have no competition in A class races" which is not true. Okay, all things being equal, if the very best players are in the very best cars, who perform at their best, and you are in one of the less good cars, you will lose to them. That isn't a situation you'll regularly find yourself in, at least not in my experience.

The number of people I see in meta cars in ranked or unranked who fail to get anywhere near the best out of the car, shows they are not pay to win. It shows that in the right hands and on the right tracks, they are better, that's all. Put any average player in those cars against a very good player in a slightly lesser car, the latter will win most of the time.

Edited by user Monday, June 15, 2020 5:19:34 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#92 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2020 5:28:26 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Rayne SE Go to Quoted Post
[quote=Jezza14;1164644]Since I'm not playing Ranked I assume so called "tech-options" like the Lotus 340R for playlists that include Ambleside Village or Festival Circuit are not really a valid option?
Too many disadvantages on the remaining two races?
Couldn't be my 205R an option for the playlist "Elmsdon, Greendale Club and Colossus"? Colossus won't even be a challenge egainst your mentionend cars and with low 53s at Greendale and sub 2:30s on Elmsdon it should perform well enough?


I think I have the 340R in my favourites just in case but I’ve never seen a selection where it looks viable to me. The problem is that most of the sprints are power based so you risk losing a lot of positions at any of those and there just aren’t enough high tech circuits - 1st, 1st, 5th doesn’t beat 2nd, 2nd, 1st. I had one event yesterday which was Broadway, Ambleside and Greendale where it might have been an option but it was Winter anyway and, to be honest, I’d need to do some more testing of it before risking it at anything where it was questionable.

As for the 205R, I’m sure it’s competitive in the right hands (as would some of the RWD options) but, certainly with TCS off, for me it requires quite a lot of concentration to deal with the understeer. I’m not sure I’d fancy that with other players knocking into me in a ranked race.


Can't remember if you said you tried the 205R with TCS on too. I also doubt it would be a competitive car for ranked in most cases - yes I expect Rayne could do it but for most of us it would be very demanding I imagine. With TCS on it's a piece of cake to drive but I've found it hard to be as competitive (as in a Roadster or TZ2) except on the Colossus obviously. I think it would be a brave person who would take it into ranked and would be very track dependent. And the slow launch means getting clear of the pack in 25 seconds is tough if not impossible.

I had this nice race last night in unranked, the 1st place car was using a RWD power build with TCS off as far as I could tell. And my TCS on time in the 205R was very similar. He made a mistake near the final corner and I got past, but then I braked too late so I ended up finishing 2nd... I don't know if the time is competitive for ranked, not against the very best competition naturally. But probably against most.

Edited by user Monday, June 15, 2020 5:29:06 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#93 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2020 5:51:09 AM(UTC)
It’s quicker than the best Rivals time in a Nova and not far off the best Roadster times at 5.20/5.21 (which could also be done using power RWD builds rather than AWD), so you’d probably win 99% of ranked races with that time - unless you run into someone who risked a RWD power build for the other courses. Problem is though that you either need to have TCS on regardless of what type of adventure comes up or hang around waiting for the 1 in 10 A class road events. The only way to use it properly as part of a ranked car fleet is without TCS.

Edited by user Monday, June 15, 2020 5:52:39 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#94 Posted : Monday, June 15, 2020 9:35:51 AM(UTC)
Just tried a little comparison of the 205 and Roadster on that course list Rayne state’s earlier. For Greendale and Elmsdon I ran Summer single player races against unbeatable AI - one run in each car. For Colossus, I was being lazy so just had one run in the Roadster in Rivals:

Greendale

Peugeot - 2.54 (best lap 54.0)
Roadster - 2.50 (best lap 53.5)

Elmsdon

Peugeot - 2.32
Roadster - 2.32

Colossus

Peugeot - 5.15 (that’s my best after several attempts although I’m pretty sure it can go 5-10 secs quicker)
Roadster 5.22 (one attempt - potential to maybe do 5.19)

Not too much difference overall. Certainly suggests the Peugeot is a valid option in Ranked. How good is it in wet conditions?
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#95 Posted : Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:08:00 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post

Not too much difference overall. Certainly suggests the Peugeot is a valid option in Ranked. How good is it in wet conditions?


I can't say definitively as I haven't done any objective testing but subjectively on the wet races I've used it, with TCS on of course, it is still competitive. Maybe you could test it yourself in unranked races first.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#96 Posted : Tuesday, June 16, 2020 2:16:30 AM(UTC)
I tried it at unranked yesterday and it seemed fine in the wet (street races). Competition wasn’t that strong so hard to know exactly how good it was. I had a couple of runs at Ashbrook Apex in rivals after and managed 13th, about 2 seconds off your Roadster time, so competitive but not spectacular.
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