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Rank: S-Class Racing License
#51 Posted : Monday, May 11, 2020 3:17:53 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: talhaONE Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: talhaONE Go to Quoted Post
Rivals is not the place for balancing the cars. Rivals is not a competitive gamemode. S2 dirt is not a competitive class. Whats next? Are we going to nerf a car just because its strong in a non-competitive gamemode and a non-competitive class? Hoonigan Rs200 is a below average car in any ranked S2 race. Nerfing it will going to make the car useless. Go and compare Hoonigan Rs200 with Ferrari 599xx e and tell me which one needs nerf.

Atomic punk over performs in A class dirt race and also very strong in A class road races. Im totally okay with nerfing it but nerfing only atomic punk wont going to fix the problem. Alfa Tz2, Daytona, Nova FE, Ford roadster also needs to tone down along with Atomic punk.


Rivals is competitive but it's not the same meta. In Rivals an RWD car can shine, because fastest time is by flying lap, but it's very hard for that to happen in ranked, norm is AWD because it's impossible to match the grip of AWD. In Rivals what matters is fastest, not consistency, hence why RS200 is not very good racer, because it's very hard to control, but it will destroy Rivals, because all it takes is one fast lap among thousands failed ones to top the LBs. But these differences do not invalidate Rivals as a test of speed.


Hoonigan Rs200 is not very hard to drive. In ranked meta its useless anywhere but winter. Not because its hard car to drive because its useless anywhere but dirt and snow. It has low top speed and cornering ability. Since there is no ranked dirt race in S2 that really decrease the amount of place that Hoonigan rs200 shines in ranked meta.

Asking for Hoonigan Rs200 nerf just because it does something well in rivals isnt right. Balancing should be done around ranked not rivals.


Are you talking about S1 or S2? It's rather hard to drive at S2 in my opinion.

At S1 it is competitive on some courses which benefit more from its better handling and where power isn't the key.

Edited by user Monday, May 11, 2020 3:19:13 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#52 Posted : Monday, May 11, 2020 3:46:00 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: talhaONE Go to Quoted Post
Hoonigan Rs200 is not very hard to drive. In ranked meta its useless anywhere but winter. Not because its hard car to drive because its useless anywhere but dirt and snow. It has low top speed and cornering ability. Since there is no ranked dirt race in S2 that really decrease the amount of place that Hoonigan rs200 shines in ranked meta.

Asking for Hoonigan Rs200 nerf just because it does something well in rivals isnt right. Balancing should be done around ranked not rivals.

And btw Hoonigan Rs200 in S1 dirt is just average. Nerfing it will also affect how it performs there too.


Well, it's a rally car, what else did you expect? On tarmac it has to compete with many other cars, purpose-built.

IIRC it was brought up that it's strongest in TG. Nerfing a car because of TG is like nerfing a Pokémon because it's strong in Rotation (don't even know if it's still a thing). The main meta is Singles and side activities will always struggle as a result.

The Hoonigan RS200 being strongest in Winter/Dirt is expected and, dare I say, desirable.

Edited by user Monday, May 11, 2020 3:51:23 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#53 Posted : Tuesday, May 12, 2020 6:45:36 AM(UTC)
+1 for the nerf of atomic punk for the sole reason of it being a dlc extra car

i thought this wasn't a pay-to-win game, yet every kid that buys the barrett-jackson pack has no competition in A dirt races
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#54 Posted : Tuesday, May 12, 2020 6:52:31 AM(UTC)
.

Edited by user Tuesday, May 12, 2020 6:58:24 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#55 Posted : Tuesday, May 12, 2020 6:53:33 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
Not much point nerfing the Atomic Punk unless you are also going to nerf the Hula Girl, Nova FE and Daytona.
Once we’ve done that, there will be another 4-5 cars which are the best - stuff like the GT40, Nissan GTR or NSX. Do we nerf those as well at that point until the S2000 is the best?

The reason I brought up the s2000 is not because of how fond I am of that car at all, it is because of what kind of purpose built vehicle it is. It is what one would call a staple midrange sports car, which should fit into Horizon's A class nicely.
On the other hand, the bubbletop IRL is a thing thrown together to look pretty, maybe to be taken to a drag strip to be destroyed by actual dragsters.
Not to mention Plymouth being a long-defunct company with no racing pedigree.
Of course, maybe one could pretty much reconstruct any car or even use some fairy dust to make modern, high tech parts work on any vehicle, but does that mean it should be better than track day machines? If the light weight, open wheeled nature of the vehicle is granting the advantage, what about other cars like the atom or caterham?
Some cars are simply going to be better in certain disciplines regardless of what aftermarket parts we use to make up the difference. But not the bubbletop, nor bone shaker, nor HULA GIRL.

Edited by user Tuesday, May 12, 2020 6:56:28 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#56 Posted : Tuesday, May 12, 2020 7:05:17 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Burger11131622 Go to Quoted Post
Of course, maybe one could pretty much reconstruct any car or even use some fairy dust to make modern, high tech parts work on any vehicle, but does that mean it should be better than track day machines? If the light weight, open wheeled nature of the vehicle is granting the advantage, what about other cars like the atom or caterham?
Some cars are simply going to be better in certain disciplines regardless of what aftermarket parts we use to make up the difference. But not the bubbletop, nor bone shaker, nor HULA GIRL.

The best cars in the game at a given PI aren't really "better" in that sense, they're just having their performance incorrectly assessed by the PI system relative to the cars that are worse at the same PI. The choice of available upgrades is really totally arbitrary, e.g. for many cars that don't have access to the 6.2l V8 there's no obvious reason why they shouldn't have it while the AP and Hula Girl do have it. And why does a car that is stock AWD not get the free race gearbox that a RWD car gets after AWD conversion? Again, it's just an artificial construct of the game rather than related to any genuine real world superiority.
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#57 Posted : Tuesday, May 12, 2020 7:52:41 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Burger11131622 Go to Quoted Post

On the other hand, the bubbletop IRL is a thing thrown together to look pretty, maybe to be taken to a drag strip to be destroyed by actual dragsters.
Not to mention Plymouth being a long-defunct company with no racing pedigree.


No racing pedigree?! You can't be serious. Petty drove a Superbird and competed in Nascar. Gurney drove an AAR Cuda in the Trans Am series. Sox & Martin raced Plymouths in NHRA drag racing.

Edited by user Tuesday, May 12, 2020 8:14:38 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#58 Posted : Tuesday, May 12, 2020 10:06:38 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Stang616 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Burger11131622 Go to Quoted Post

On the other hand, the bubbletop IRL is a thing thrown together to look pretty, maybe to be taken to a drag strip to be destroyed by actual dragsters.
Not to mention Plymouth being a long-defunct company with no racing pedigree.


No racing pedigree?! You can't be serious. Petty drove a Superbird and competed in Nascar. Gurney drove an AAR Cuda in the Trans Am series. Sox & Martin raced Plymouths in NHRA drag racing.


Not to mention the legendary rivalry between Prudhomme and McEwen, The Snake & The Mongoose! It was groundbreaking in several aspects!
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#59 Posted : Tuesday, May 12, 2020 11:12:51 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Burger11131622 Go to Quoted Post
Not to mention Plymouth being a long-defunct company with no racing pedigree.


Did you know Plymouth is the company with the most racing pedigree in all of Mopar? The only reason the Superbird exists was to lure Richard Petty back to Mopar (and Plymouth). Dodge had a car (Charger Daytona), but he wanted a Plymouth, not a Dodge.

Even Dodge has less pedigree, as the Vipers were frequently run as Chryslers and SRTs.

Plymouth also has more street cred than Dodge. Plymouth was the base trim, so the cars were lighter. Since you could order a Plymouth with any Mopar engine, they were faster than the heavier, plushier Dodges in stoplight racing.

Edited by user Tuesday, May 12, 2020 11:18:49 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#60 Posted : Tuesday, May 12, 2020 3:55:52 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Burger11131622 Go to Quoted Post
...Not to mention Plymouth being a long-defunct company with no racing pedigree...


Richard Petty and Dan Gurney might have a thing or 2 to say about that...

Edited by user Tuesday, May 12, 2020 3:57:36 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#61 Posted : Wednesday, May 13, 2020 4:32:53 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: breeminator Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Burger11131622 Go to Quoted Post
Of course, maybe one could pretty much reconstruct any car or even use some fairy dust to make modern, high tech parts work on any vehicle, but does that mean it should be better than track day machines? If the light weight, open wheeled nature of the vehicle is granting the advantage, what about other cars like the atom or caterham?
Some cars are simply going to be better in certain disciplines regardless of what aftermarket parts we use to make up the difference. But not the bubbletop, nor bone shaker, nor HULA GIRL.

The best cars in the game at a given PI aren't really "better" in that sense, they're just having their performance incorrectly assessed by the PI system relative to the cars that are worse at the same PI. The choice of available upgrades is really totally arbitrary, e.g. for many cars that don't have access to the 6.2l V8 there's no obvious reason why they shouldn't have it while the AP and Hula Girl do have it. And why does a car that is stock AWD not get the free race gearbox that a RWD car gets after AWD conversion? Again, it's just an artificial construct of the game rather than related to any genuine real world superiority.

Awd swaps race gearbox is not free. It adds more PI if the stock gearbox is worse then race gearbox.
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#62 Posted : Wednesday, May 13, 2020 6:27:50 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: talhaONE Go to Quoted Post
Awd swaps race gearbox is not free. It adds more PI if the stock gearbox is worse then race gearbox.

It seems to cost less than 1 PI, in that sometimes it increases the PI by one, sometimes it doesn't change, i.e. it's a fractional change in PI and we can't see the decimal places.

On cars that haven't been AWD swapped, even if the car originally had AWD, I think I've seen it cost 5-10 PI to fully upgrade the gearbox.
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#63 Posted : Wednesday, May 13, 2020 10:40:36 AM(UTC)
The core problem here is the PI system, not nerfing/buffing any particular car.

IMHO a game based on RL car models and physics will always have some sort of meta, simply because IRL some cars are actually physically better than their competitors. A good PI system will help alleviate this to some degree by recognizing it and penalizing appropriately, but at the end of the day the car physics in Forza are primarily based on RL, not fudged feel-good numbers (for the most part) like more arcade based car games.

That said, I would like to see a bit more consistency in upgrade availability for cars. For example, all tire types should be available for all cars instead of the extreme hit and miss with trucks and SUVs where some have race tires and some don't, and some have offroad race tires and some don't for Reasons. Tire width inconsistency is an even larger issue, and seems to be the root of these cars people complain about being OP. Especially with how wide rear tires DECREASE PI with AWD, even though you can just tweak the center diff and make it RWD biased for improved performance at a negative PI cost. Things that reduce PI like ballast weights, economy tires and power limiters could also help, as another thing that makes cars meta is that they have a really low starting PI and have tons of upgrade room compared to a "better" car that has a higher starting PI, and less room to put on the meta upgrades.
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#64 Posted : Wednesday, May 13, 2020 5:04:01 PM(UTC)
Can't really fix PI given what that'd do to the game, so the best fix for FH4 is to ban drivetrain-swapped cars from ranked in future seasons. You'd still see a lot of base-AWD cars, but they have characteristics that make them more competitive by default: heavier, larger, higher center of gravity, skinnier rear tires, etc. That'd also promote a lot of interest in something other than the meta, which is good for a game that prides itself on a lot of cars and options.
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#65 Posted : Wednesday, May 13, 2020 8:21:33 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MyGamingID Go to Quoted Post
Can't really fix PI given what that'd do to the game, so the best fix for FH4 is to ban drivetrain-swapped cars from ranked in future seasons. You'd still see a lot of base-AWD cars, but they have characteristics that make them more competitive by default: heavier, larger, higher center of gravity, skinnier rear tires, etc. That'd also promote a lot of interest in something other than the meta, which is good for a game that prides itself on a lot of cars and options.


The idea of yours creates more problems then fixes. S1 class will totally dominated by Bugatti Eb110ss and some Lambo Aventadors, Huracans while S2 will be Bugatti Divos playground.

So I have a better idea. Ban awd completely or give us drivetrain based races. Like some races only rwd or only fwd etc.
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#66 Posted : Thursday, May 14, 2020 12:05:44 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: breeminator Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: talhaONE Go to Quoted Post
Awd swaps race gearbox is not free. It adds more PI if the stock gearbox is worse then race gearbox.

It seems to cost less than 1 PI, in that sometimes it increases the PI by one, sometimes it doesn't change, i.e. it's a fractional change in PI and we can't see the decimal places.

On cars that haven't been AWD swapped, even if the car originally had AWD, I think I've seen it cost 5-10 PI to fully upgrade the gearbox.


Depends on gearing, if stats are better then PI increases. AWD conversion defaults to 6 gears, with usually better gearing than stock.
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#67 Posted : Saturday, June 13, 2020 10:27:15 AM(UTC)
[Mod Edit - thread merged - MM]

nerf barrett-jackson cars
or make the pack free
as it is now, if you own the pack you have no competition in A class races, making the game pay-to-win

Edited by user Saturday, June 13, 2020 11:08:16 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#68 Posted : Saturday, June 13, 2020 10:46:55 AM(UTC)
Or just drop the $7 and start your download while being grateful there's only two car packs to bemoan purchasing this time as opposed to the eight or so during H3.

Edited by user Saturday, June 13, 2020 10:51:55 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Grammar

Every train needs a caboose, right?
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#69 Posted : Saturday, June 13, 2020 11:25:08 AM(UTC)
Tbh its been 1.5 years since those cars were released, so I sincerely hope they don't start messing with them now.
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#70 Posted : Saturday, June 13, 2020 1:54:34 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: YAMETEEEEEEEEEE Go to Quoted Post
or make the pack free
as it is now, if you own the pack you have no competition in A class races, making the game pay-to-win


I still prefer using a R33 or a R34 for A class. Of course I'm not in it to win, just racing for fun
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#71 Posted : Saturday, June 13, 2020 2:03:40 PM(UTC)
I’m confused. I’m sure there was another thread wanting the Nova FE to be banned as nothing could beat it at A class. Now, this thread wants the entire Barrett Jackson selection banned because nothing can beat them at A class?
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#72 Posted : Saturday, June 13, 2020 3:41:42 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
I’m confused. I’m sure there was another thread wanting the Nova FE to be banned as nothing could beat it at A class. Now, this thread wants the entire Barrett Jackson selection banned because nothing can beat them at A class?


Any car can be beaten, just depends on who's driving. It's more the skill of the driver rather than the car itself at times.

Those calling for whole packs of cars to be nerffed are most likely not very good drivers.
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#73 Posted : Saturday, June 13, 2020 4:50:40 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
I’m confused. I’m sure there was another thread wanting the Nova FE to be banned as nothing could beat it at A class. Now, this thread wants the entire Barrett Jackson selection banned because nothing can beat them at A class?


Exactly. Now what I want to see is a race with only Barrett Jackson cars and a Nova FE. They should all come in first place, right?
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#74 Posted : Saturday, June 13, 2020 5:33:06 PM(UTC)
Something about the upgrade system in Forza games gives the vintage cars unbelievably good handling once upgraded. It has been this way since at least Forza 4 with the 1940 Ford Business Coupe.

The Barrett Jackson cars that are the best are the older ones, like the bubble top and the hula girl. The bone shaker fell into this as well, as does the Jeep CJ5 and in past games the grand wagoneer.

In real life these cars would handle terribly ( I own a grand wagoneer 1988 and if you go around a corner with vigor it WILL flip over) but for some reason in Forza they handle exceptionally well.

It probably has a lot to do with the game limiting lateral body roll so that the cars won’t flip over unless destabilized by running over a bump. The stiff suspension coupled with grippy tires allows high g forces to be applied with no risk of rolling over.
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#75 Posted : Saturday, June 13, 2020 5:33:28 PM(UTC)
just nerf every car or block every car from online
geez
nerf one , block one, then a new one appears , block that
and the cycle goes on
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