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Rank: Driver's Permit
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#1 Posted : Monday, May 4, 2020 3:33:40 PM(UTC)
Only a few months into FH4 now, but I've got a fair share of league karting and sim racing experience. I get a good s2000 cr with a semi-power build in A-class, and I cannot keep up with the Atomic Punk even when I get a better line out of corners. They seem to grip like they are a class above, and accelerate too lol. I get that DLC cars need to be worth the purchase, but damn, I've bought the game too.

Devs, if you haven't found out about the issue yet, search "Horizon Atomic Punk" on Youtube, please.

I love it when horizon gives you an option to choose from a good selection of cars to be competitive with, but these ridiculous looking deathtraps running around are pretty annoying. HELP.

Edited by user Monday, May 18, 2020 12:41:17 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#2 Posted : Monday, May 4, 2020 8:44:19 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Burger11131622 Go to Quoted Post
Only a few months into FH4 now, but I've got a fair share of league karting and sim racing experience. I get a good s2000 cr with a semi-power build in A-class, and I cannot keep up with the Atomic Punk even when I get a better line out of corners. They seem to grip like they are a class above, and accelerate too lol. I get that DLC cars need to be worth the purchase, but damn, I've bought the game too.

Devs, if you haven't found out about the issue yet, search "Horizon Atomic Punk" on Youtube, please.

I love it when horizon gives you an option to choose from a good selection of cars to be competitive with, but these ridiculous looking deathtraps running around are pretty annoying. HELP.


Sadly we hare discussing between players here, no one from game team is watching here. You can go with logging a ticket https://support.forzamot...et/hc/en-us/requests/new , you will get a generic response that it has been sent to the "team", and that's all, ticket closed.

As this is not impacting that "team" features ( eliminator , route creator , ... as opposed to team racing , free for all , rivals ) and not having any incidence on the number of new players coming to the game, they simply ignore the fact.

Edited by user Monday, May 18, 2020 12:41:28 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's License
 3 users liked this post.
#3 Posted : Tuesday, May 5, 2020 12:56:05 AM(UTC)
developers don't care about this game

they give new cars and people think it's a great update

where is

- ranked points fix ?

- time reset fix ?

- cars sound fix where there is zero bass ?

- winter tires filter fix ?

- online adventures in dlc ?

- free roam rush removed ? or random routes in every adventure, now we always have the same route settings, it's boring

and more and more

it gets worse with every update, but it doesn't matter to devs and children, they use only op cars, download meta tunings, ram other players and think they are the best drivers xD

game pass and lazy devs who know best, destroyed this game, thanks microsoft and playground




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Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#4 Posted : Tuesday, May 5, 2020 4:01:10 AM(UTC)
Not much point nerfing the Atomic Punk unless you are also going to nerf the Hula Girl, Nova FE and Daytona.

Once we’ve done that, there will be another 4-5 cars which are the best - stuff like the GT40, Nissan GTR or NSX. Do we nerf those as well at that point until the S2000 is the best?

If you have one car that’s clearly much better than anything else in class then it definitely should be nerfed - the Peel seems a good example in C and D class. However, it’s arguable whether the Bubbletop is even the best A class car. The Hula Girl and Daytona probably have it beat on most road courses. It doesn’t seem to me a car that needs to be excluded.




Rank: A-Class Racing License
#5 Posted : Tuesday, May 5, 2020 4:21:49 AM(UTC)
I suspect the reason why they don't do balance adjustments to the cars like GT Sport does frequently, or like AoE does to civilisations every month, is that they'd have to wipe leaderboard times for any cars that have been adjusted, and why would anyone spend many hours building, tuning, and driving the best car to get high up on a leaderboard if it's just going to cause their performance to get wiped because they've made the car the best? GT Sport gets around this by having BoP off for the permanent leaderboards, e.g. Circuit Experience, so the times remain valid across BoP adjustments. AoE gets around it by not having time-based leaderboards at all. I can't see any way that FH4 can get around it without fundamentally changing how the game works for online competition and the associated leaderboards that match the classes for online competition.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#6 Posted : Tuesday, May 5, 2020 5:16:26 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: breeminator Go to Quoted Post
I suspect the reason why they don't do balance adjustments to the cars like GT Sport does frequently, or like AoE does to civilisations every month, is that they'd have to wipe leaderboard times for any cars that have been adjusted, and why would anyone spend many hours building, tuning, and driving the best car to get high up on a leaderboard if it's just going to cause their performance to get wiped because they've made the car the best? GT Sport gets around this by having BoP off for the permanent leaderboards, e.g. Circuit Experience, so the times remain valid across BoP adjustments. AoE gets around it by not having time-based leaderboards at all. I can't see any way that FH4 can get around it without fundamentally changing how the game works for online competition and the associated leaderboards that match the classes for online competition.


Turn 10 did some PI adjustments for Forza 7, so it had been possible in the Forza franchise but it's very rare. Don't think T10 wiped any of the leaderboards when they changed the cars.
Can't see the leaderboards as the major reason. It's probably simply the unwillingness/resource allocation that prevent it - that's at least the vibe I got when they talked about it during the streams.
Given the weird PI decisions for some of the added cars I'm not sure I actually want to see balance adjustments.

Ubisoft did it recently for Street and Hypercars in The Crew 2 with a mixed success I guess. Old muscle cars and FWD cars are now somewhat useable but lost many of their characteristics. By rebalancing they created an absolute behemoth in Street with the Gallardo though which mobbed the floor with any of the former leaderboard cars. By this I mean it decimated former lap times of 2 minutes by over 10 seconds.

Edited by user Tuesday, May 5, 2020 5:17:39 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#7 Posted : Tuesday, May 5, 2020 6:50:55 AM(UTC)
I doubt the risk of corrupting rivals leaderboard would be more than an excuse here. We are dealing with guys who consider loss of your profile as an acceptable event for years now ...

We should be glad BS and TT were blocked and I tend to think, no evidence of it, that it was the last move of the sole car game enthusiastic guy there was in that team ... I still remember Mike's decomposed face when Brian unexpectedly asked him if Lego cars would be able to go to mainland ...
Rank: Racing Permit
#8 Posted : Tuesday, May 5, 2020 7:05:20 AM(UTC)
FM7 wiped the leaderboards when they redrew track limits. Before you could really cut and extend some corners, so they had to reset the leaderboards or some previously set times would have been unbeatable. They've rebalanced certain cars in the past, but that was in like FM4. Since then they've been more inclined to ban types cars for online racing, namely open wheeled and vans/trucks. And wiping the leaderboards really killed rivals; most boards aren't all that competitive beyond the top ~25 times. I'm sure they'd like to avoid doing that again. Though I suspect the actual reason for lack of balance changes is because they're focused on the next release now. But hopefully including a more balanced PI system (and/or a plan for rolling out balance changes) is part of that.

The Atomic Punk is pretty clearly the best car for A class online racing. It's just too good in too many scenarios. Some other cars are close to as good overall and can beat it on more niche tracks, but they don't dominate as thoroughly IMO. If they had to ban or nerf one car it would be a perfect candidate. Though IMO it wouldn't be such a bad thing if they also wanted to toss in the other 6.2L V8 swapped, centrifugal supercharger swapped, AWD swapped, big rear tire skinny front tire cars (which is the real flaw in the PI system) like the Hula Girl, Daytona, and maybe Nova FE. Beyond that A class really starts to level out. There would still be good cars, but they'd have more glaring weaknesses, and it'd be more about trade offs and picking the right car/build/tune for the right track.
Rank: X-Class Racing License
#9 Posted : Tuesday, May 5, 2020 7:08:21 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
Not much point nerfing the Atomic Punk unless you are also going to nerf the Hula Girl, Nova FE and Daytona.

Once we’ve done that, there will be another 4-5 cars which are the best - stuff like the GT40, Nissan GTR or NSX. Do we nerf those as well at that point until the S2000 is the best?

If you have one car that’s clearly much better than anything else in class then it definitely should be nerfed - the Peel seems a good example in C and D class. However, it’s arguable whether the Bubbletop is even the best A class car. The Hula Girl and Daytona probably have it beat on most road courses. It doesn’t seem to me a car that needs to be excluded.




Exactly this, there will always be a better car. There is no point in nerfing one car people think is OP just to have another car rise to the top. There are a lot of factors into why certain cars are better. P/W ratio is a good example.

The Peel, for example is so much lighter than other cars in C and D class just because of it's size, it would make sense for it to be better in certain situations.

I do agree that if a certain car is better for no logical reason, like the Track-tor for example, than something should be done.
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Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#10 Posted : Tuesday, May 5, 2020 8:02:19 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Stang616 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
Not much point nerfing the Atomic Punk unless you are also going to nerf the Hula Girl, Nova FE and Daytona.

Once we’ve done that, there will be another 4-5 cars which are the best - stuff like the GT40, Nissan GTR or NSX. Do we nerf those as well at that point until the S2000 is the best?

If you have one car that’s clearly much better than anything else in class then it definitely should be nerfed - the Peel seems a good example in C and D class. However, it’s arguable whether the Bubbletop is even the best A class car. The Hula Girl and Daytona probably have it beat on most road courses. It doesn’t seem to me a car that needs to be excluded.




Exactly this, there will always be a better car. There is no point in nerfing one car people think is OP just to have another car rise to the top. There are a lot of factors into why certain cars are better. P/W ratio is a good example.

The Peel, for example is so much lighter than other cars in C and D class just because of it's size, it would make sense for it to be better in certain situations.

I do agree that if a certain car is better for no logical reason, like the Track-tor for example, than something should be done.



Following this "there will always be a better car", we could as well remove the classes, would make sense ? not to me, we have class to allow playing with more cars , cars with very close capabilities.

Please don't use this argument "there will always be a better car", that is absolutely not the point. The issue is the gap between the best cars and the other cars, not that one in best.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#11 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 6:44:24 AM(UTC)
It only takes one change to fix a ton of the balance issues: AWD PI should use RWD calcs instead of FWD calcs. That's literally all it takes. Shouldn't really be done in FM7 or FH4 at this point, but they absolutely need to do it for FM8 and FH5.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#12 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 7:47:41 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Tilo38 Go to Quoted Post
Please don't use this argument "there will always be a better car", that is absolutely not the point. The issue is the gap between the best cars and the other cars, not that one in best.

I'd add that it's not just that, but the problem is when car A is a lot better than car B on every single track. It's not a problem if car A is handling-biased and is faster on handling circuits, while car B is speed-biased and loses to A on handling circuits, but beats it on high speed sprints. Basically, there should never be a situation where A is better than B on every single track in the game, that sort of situation should result in A being nerfed, or B being buffed.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#13 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 7:49:59 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MyGamingID Go to Quoted Post
It only takes one change to fix a ton of the balance issues: AWD PI should use RWD calcs instead of FWD calcs. That's literally all it takes.

Can you expand on what you mean by this? In what sense does AWD PI use FWD calcs, and what would change if it used RWD calcs? Surely it shouldn't use either, as the effect of more power, for example, on an AWD build is different to the effect of more power on either RWD or FWD?
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#14 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 8:15:30 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
Not much point nerfing the Atomic Punk unless you are also going to nerf the Hula Girl, Nova FE and Daytona.

Once we’ve done that, there will be another 4-5 cars which are the best - stuff like the GT40, Nissan GTR or NSX. Do we nerf those as well at that point until the S2000 is the best?

If you have one car that’s clearly much better than anything else in class then it definitely should be nerfed - the Peel seems a good example in C and D class. However, it’s arguable whether the Bubbletop is even the best A class car. The Hula Girl and Daytona probably have it beat on most road courses. It doesn’t seem to me a car that needs to be excluded.


+1

I've not found the Bubbletop to be especially good on the road, it's no Bone Shaker replacement and there are plenty of better road cars. I think it's the familiar story of someone being beaten by a better driver who happens to be in a particular car, and then making the leap that it's because of the car.

Like here for example, someone cites the fast lap times as proof it needs to be nerfed:

https://www.reddit.com/r...bble_59_needs_to_be_the/

What they failed to notice was the drivers were top 1% / grandmasters.



(And also on that particular track you can go off road on one corner to gain time which maybe those top drivers did and the rest didn't.)

Edited by user Wednesday, May 6, 2020 8:17:30 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#15 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 8:23:50 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
Like here for example, someone cites the fast lap times as proof it needs to be nerfed:

https://www.reddit.com/r...bble_59_needs_to_be_the/

What they failed to notice was the drivers were top 1% / grandmasters.



(And also on that particular track you can go off road on one corner to gain time which maybe those top drivers did and the rest didn't.)

Even so, the best time I have recorded in my spreadsheet for that track is 56.3, so I'm off to try the Atomic Punk... :D
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#16 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 8:40:30 AM(UTC)
Uh oh, I guess I'm about to get bumped down in rivals again :p

My time is 54.950 in a Roadster which is only good enough for 78th. The top times are around 52 seconds.

edit - 54.719 now and 56th.

Just tried a TZ2 and did 56.1 on my first full lap which isn't far off and is much less of a gap than in the scoreboard pic above.

Edited by user Wednesday, May 6, 2020 9:51:15 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#17 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 8:43:56 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: breeminator Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MyGamingID Go to Quoted Post
It only takes one change to fix a ton of the balance issues: AWD PI should use RWD calcs instead of FWD calcs. That's literally all it takes.

Can you expand on what you mean by this? In what sense does AWD PI use FWD calcs, and what would change if it used RWD calcs? Surely it shouldn't use either, as the effect of more power, for example, on an AWD build is different to the effect of more power on either RWD or FWD?


Sure! It's been a pet peeve of mine with AWD swaps in the franchise.

  • FWD: PI increases with increased front tire width and aero. PI decreases with increased rear tire width and aero. Increased rear grip is seen as a penalty by the FWD PI calc.
  • RWD: PI increases with increase front or rear tire width or aero. PI does not decrease in either case. Increased grip is seen as a benefit by the RWD PI calc.
  • AWD: PI increases with increased front tire width and aero. PI decreases with increased rear tire width and aero. Increased rear grip is seen as a penalty by the AWD PI calc.


FWD and AWD PI calcs are applied in exactly the same manner, while RWD is penalized. A case could be made to give FWD a break, I guess, but AWD certainly doesn't need it.

This is why RWD cars with massive rear tire width benefit heavily from AWD swaps and outperform in the leaderboards. The PI calc sees those giant rear tires and rates them solely as a hindrance to performance in an AWD car, while the game engine sees them as a benefit. The PI cost to performance benefit ratio is broken by using the FWD calc for AWD cars.

EDIT: Agreed that AWD should probably see some other adjustment to PI to account for the improved performance in lower gears. Moving to the RWD calc would be easy, though. Maybe subtract the difference between RWD and AWD weight from the AWD car as part of the PI calc?

Edited by user Wednesday, May 6, 2020 8:54:06 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#18 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 10:27:46 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
Uh oh, I guess I'm about to get bumped down in rivals again :p

My time is 54.950 in a Roadster which is only good enough for 78th. The top times are around 52 seconds.

edit - 54.719 now and 56th.

Just tried a TZ2 and did 56.1 on my first full lap which isn't far off and is much less of a gap than in the scoreboard pic above.

I've now done 54.3 with a drag tyre build of the Atomic Punk, 54.9 with a rally tyre build. Goodness knows how the top Atomic Punk time is achieved, he had a bit less grip than my rally tyre build but insane acceleration.

56.1 vs 54.7 is a massive difference. When they nerf cars in GT Sport, they slow them down by like 0.05 seconds over a 50 second duration and people complain their car has been ruined. Decent balancing would have all cars within maybe 0.3 seconds from best to worst over that sort of duration, not 1.4 seconds from "best" to "one of the best of the rest" never mind the worst.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#19 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 10:40:02 AM(UTC)
56.1 considering I did it as a first attempt and it is within a second of some of the best players in the game in the scoreboard above, the context being that the TZ2 times there were nearly 59 seconds. So the person who made the reddit thread thought the Atomic Punk was 4-5 seconds a lap faster, which clearly it isn't.
Rank: Driver's Permit
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#20 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 11:19:58 AM(UTC)
The jokers who use the Shelby Daytona for CC and rallys need their head examined imho. They are the same class of jokers who use the 599XX in class S2 races and completely crush the field.

It's so frustrating!
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#21 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 11:54:54 AM(UTC)
After 30 laps, my best in the Shelby Daytona was 55.9, 1.6 secs slower than the Atomic Punk, which is an absolute gulf in performance. The Atomic Punk is faster everywhere, it has both more grip and much more acceleration.

I agree the difference isn't 4 seconds a lap, though, I don't know how anyone could be stupid enough to think that's the difference, if someone did make that claim.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#22 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 12:34:56 PM(UTC)
Yes it's a very good car, no doubt. I haven't often seen it used in road races online though, if it's as OP as the thread creator thinks it is. I've found it good on some dirt tracks but it isn't the Swiss army knife that the Bone Shaker is at A class, where you can have a rally tyres build and use it for basically everything, dirt and road and all weathers and still have it be very competitive.

Edited by user Wednesday, May 6, 2020 12:35:28 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#23 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 12:39:27 PM(UTC)
The top times will be set in RWD power builds. OnlyNaps has shared his if you fancy a go.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#24 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 1:48:24 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
The top times will be set in RWD power builds. OnlyNaps has shared his if you fancy a go.


I tried... ha. 57 seconds.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#25 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 4:01:21 PM(UTC)
Previously people were moaning and bleating about the Boneshaker. Is it not a threat anymore?
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