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#1 Posted : Friday, May 1, 2020 6:10:49 PM(UTC)
I sometimes watch Isuckatdriving on YT.
I've noticed that his redlines is completely different from mine. Case in point the BAC Mono video.

Under every available upgrade I manage to get up in the 970-80s with upgrades and tunes in my BAC Mono

How is it possible to tune the BAC Mono up to 999 without doing some shady stuff?

Confused
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#2 Posted : Saturday, May 2, 2020 3:42:02 AM(UTC)
I figured it out, he was shifting using the keyboard in manual mode changing the shift points in the game.

Just a general question, if you tune out the gears and drive in AT is it faster than a MT with the same tune?
Is MT just faster because you can change the shift points?
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#3 Posted : Sunday, May 3, 2020 8:02:46 AM(UTC)
If you swap 3.0 V8 there is no problem to make it S998 or X999.

Isuckatdriving is using manual with clutch.
If you use AWD swapped vehicle or stock drivetrain with installed race parts for gearbox/clutch there shouldn't be any difference in gear changing time. Despite that automatic is shifthing earlier, so possible a bit slower than manual. Biggest difference between A, M and M+C would be seen with stock cars.
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#4 Posted : Tuesday, May 5, 2020 5:22:01 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ziperrPL Go to Quoted Post
If you swap 3.0 V8 there is no problem to make it S998 or X999.

Isuckatdriving is using manual with clutch.
If you use AWD swapped vehicle or stock drivetrain with installed race parts for gearbox/clutch there shouldn't be any difference in gear changing time. Despite that automatic is shifthing earlier, so possible a bit slower than manual. Biggest difference between A, M and M+C would be seen with stock cars.


This is false it is almost always faster/better to run manual with clutch or at the bare minimum manual. 2 reasons, control of gear shifts. @2nd, manual with clutch negates the clutch upgrade and allows you to use the pi points in other areas the car needs instead. Manual with clutch is faster in pretty much every car from the lowest class to a. Many of the S cars and above already have an upgraded clutch so its just as quick to run manual.

Remap the clutch button to a so you can just hit the up and downshift at the same time as the clutch and its pretty much the same as driving manual.



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#5 Posted : Tuesday, May 5, 2020 7:40:32 AM(UTC)
Well, you practically said the same thing.
I didn't say that automatic will accelerate as good as manual. I did say that with race upgrades gear change time will be the same. Only gear change time. (ok, I didn't make any testing on this, but I think I have enough experience to say that).

And M+C is faster of two reasons:
1. if we have same spec cars e.g. stock Lancer and stock gearbox/clutch --> M+C will faster, because of shorter gear change time at better RPMs
2. if we have e.g. again Lancer, both set to A800. One with stock G/C and second with race G/C --> M+C will benefit from saved PI, witch you can spend on power upgrade, so it will be faster not because of M+C, but from better power/weight ratio.

If you have race upgrades for gearbox/clutch you have to be very good to benefit from using M+C. For me it is better to use just manual if I use AWD swapped or with race upgrades vehicle.
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#6 Posted : Tuesday, May 5, 2020 9:31:08 AM(UTC)
Should clarify. What i was saying was false was only in reference the biggest difference being seen in stock cars.

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#7 Posted : Tuesday, May 5, 2020 9:53:10 AM(UTC)
Oh, OK

....and it escalated so quickly from my side :P
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#8 Posted : Tuesday, May 5, 2020 5:02:56 PM(UTC)
Whatever works best for you!
I drive with AT no TCS or STM

But tune the gear ratios to my advantage.
Let the car do all the work
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#9 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 5:25:02 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Shemp4Victory Go to Quoted Post
Whatever works best for you!
I drive with AT no TCS or STM

But tune the gear ratios to my advantage.
Let the car do all the work


Obviously you are free to do whatever you you'd like but by doing that you are leaving a ton of time on the table for 2 reasons. In most cars upgrading the gearbox is too expensive of an upgrade and makes the car slower. The auto transmission is very poor and does not optimize shift points so you are likely spending a lot of time outside the power band.

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#10 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 6:21:57 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
In most cars upgrading the gearbox is too expensive of an upgrade and makes the car slower.


Only if: 1) you drive manual+clutch; and 2) you don't tune your gears. Otherwise, you're saving weight, reducing shift times, and getting the best performance out of each gear (and on each course if you dig down to that level).

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#11 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 9:10:11 AM(UTC)
#1 yes, correct.
#2 false. Often adding a race gearbox costs way more pi than its worth which could be better used on grip or power even if you tune your gears optimally its going to be slower than an alternate build. Id venture to say 60% of lb cars have no trans upgrade at all - 30% sport only (only final drive adjustable) - and 10% upgraded to race gearbox. Dont believe me, go to the lb, buy the car install the tune, remove the tune go look at parts list that was purchased.

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#12 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 9:23:16 AM(UTC)
The biggest PI cost of a race transmission is the reduced weight, which is never a bad thing. Add in tunable gears and you're well ahead of the lesser options.

Degenerate tuners hoping for downloads almost always use sport transmission or lower not because it actually performs better, but because the ratings calc (not PI, the meaningless 0-10 ratings on each tune) happens before tuning and doesn't take tuning into account. When you swap in a race transmission, it has very long default gearing. That leads the ratings calc to undervalue the launch and accel on nearly every race transmission-equipped car. If the gearing is far too long for the car, it may even devalue speed.

So when you're milking rubes for downloads, use the sport transmission. You'll have a big bump in accel and launch that doesn't translate to actual performance, but they won't know the difference.

If you're setting laptimes, use a race transmission and gear for the event. Those ratings will never change, but the performance will be far better.

Edit: recent Reddit thread on exactly this https://www.reddit.com/r...licate_a_shared_tunning/

Edited by user Wednesday, May 6, 2020 9:28:06 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Added example

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#13 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 9:30:47 AM(UTC)
MyGamingID - It looks like you are talking about AWD swapped vehicles only.
If You have e.g. stock Galant and put in race gearbox and clutch it will cost you 3PI for clutch and 8PI for gearbox. If you add only sport gearbox it will cost you only 2PI, so you have still 9PI to spend on something else.
In AWD swapped vehicle race gearbox/clutch usually cost 1PI. And yes, race gearbox can show worse stats.
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#14 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 10:20:28 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ziperrPL Go to Quoted Post
MyGamingID - It looks like you are talking about AWD swapped vehicles only.
If You have e.g. stock Galant and put in race gearbox and clutch it will cost you 3PI for clutch and 8PI for gearbox. If you add only sport gearbox it will cost you only 2PI, so you have still 9PI to spend on something else.
In AWD swapped vehicle race gearbox/clutch usually cost 1PI. And yes, race gearbox can show worse stats.


Race Clutch in that car also saves 10lbs, while the Race Transmission saves 6lbs and gives you the ability to tune gears, which is worth far more than the (checks the Galant) ~8hp I can get for 8 PI. As mentioned above, if you're not driving manual+clutch (most players don't), you'll save a ton of time in shifts with both mods (again, more time than that 8hp is worth).

Also, the default race gearing for the Galant is far outside its performance window, leading to a huge drop in accel and launch. It's a weird car in that this hits every transmission mod for the Galant. Even the street transmission has longer gearing than the stock transmission. It's also very weird in that only the race transmission reduces shift times.

Edited by user Wednesday, May 6, 2020 10:24:02 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Grammar

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#15 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 11:31:21 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MyGamingID Go to Quoted Post
The biggest PI cost of a race transmission is the reduced weight, which is never a bad thing. Add in tunable gears and you're well ahead of the lesser options.

Degenerate tuners hoping for downloads almost always use sport transmission or lower not because it actually performs better, but because the ratings calc (not PI, the meaningless 0-10 ratings on each tune) happens before tuning and doesn't take tuning into account. When you swap in a race transmission, it has very long default gearing. That leads the ratings calc to undervalue the launch and accel on nearly every race transmission-equipped car. If the gearing is far too long for the car, it may even devalue speed.

So when you're milking rubes for downloads, use the sport transmission. You'll have a big bump in accel and launch that doesn't translate to actual performance, but they won't know the difference.

If you're setting laptimes, use a race transmission and gear for the event. Those ratings will never change, but the performance will be far better.

Edit: recent Reddit thread on exactly this https://www.reddit.com/r...licate_a_shared_tunning/


Thread is full of fools. As i was saying earlier, go to some event, buy the top car for that event, download tune, remove tune and look at the parts in it. Willing to bet still that most of them do not have a race trans. How does that fare with your theory that its shady tuners trying to get more downloads by making their numbers look better. If its already proven as the fastest tune for the event im not sure how you can come to this conclusion. Also, if this is true as i expect and those setups do run stock or at most sport gearbox, then you should easily be able to tweak the build and add the race gearbox and make a tune that will stomp the existing one ;)

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#16 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 1:03:41 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Shemp4Victory Go to Quoted Post
Whatever works best for you!
I drive with AT no TCS or STM

But tune the gear ratios to my advantage.
Let the car do all the work


Obviously you are free to do whatever you you'd like but by doing that you are leaving a ton of time on the table for 2 reasons. In most cars upgrading the gearbox is too expensive of an upgrade and makes the car slower. The auto transmission is very poor and does not optimize shift points so you are likely spending a lot of time outside the power band.


Would like to demonstrate vis a vis race or drag.
Just a demonstration.
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#17 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 1:34:53 PM(UTC)
Like I said, whatever works best for you.

I use ForzaTune 7 in combination with the right builds and It's been a successful learning experience. Simply throwing parts at the car isn't a winning plan.

Any upgrade that I use that allows me to tune the car is advantageous to me. Right from the get-go I already have a "decent" setup and it's just the matter of punching in the numbers. More often than not it takes several tunes to get dialed in. Once it's dialed in, it's competitive.

I have ZERO intentions of racing in ranked with my rigs because it's a matter of how to get the most enjoyment from the game

I play to win the races in the matter most easiest for me. Why fight a MT when you can tune the ratios in AT to be faster? It's a no brainer.

If you find M with clutch faster than AT more power to you.
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#18 Posted : Wednesday, May 6, 2020 11:45:25 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MyGamingID Go to Quoted Post
Race Clutch in that car also saves 10lbs, while the Race Transmission ...

I am thinking about that so much, I wasn't able to sleep.... well, not really, but I feel that I'm not wrong ;)
I will make some testing later today.
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#19 Posted : Thursday, May 7, 2020 5:34:13 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Shemp4Victory Go to Quoted Post


I play to win the races in the matter most easiest for me. Why fight a MT when you can tune the ratios in AT to be faster? It's a no brainer.


Because you cant thats my point and you are ignoring it to fit your narrative. The trans upgrade is rarely needed and is a waste of pi even if it is a weight savings. The clutch uprade does literally nothing if you run M+C. So while you spend a few pi points on the clutch for faster shifts the person building a set that runs M+C ignores that upgrade completely because it doesnt do anything and has long been regarded as the worst upgrade available. This is just a matter of math and pretty much isn't debatable. If you are doing a clutch upgrade to offset the fact that you run auto and it costs say 4 pi just to make the shifts as fast as they are on M+C with no upgrade you are net -4 pi points available for your build. This may be a matter of not using lighter rims, or the difference between no exhaust and a sport exhaust etc. You keep alluding to a trans upgrade to make the shifts better and have more optimal gearing. 2 things about this if you are doing it because it is the best upgrade option for the car than someone running M+C is going to do the same thing as they will also have the pi points available and they are still going to be faster.

The only basis of your argument is you are a supreme gear tuner and can do gearing better than everyone else, therefor because you are so much better when a trans upgrade is needed yours is better. With that said that still doesnt defeat the argument that the m+c is still going to be faster even using your exact setup.

I never mentioned throwing parts at a car as you are claiming. The method I used was very methodical, you build the car to the layout you are wanting to run or a more general setup (grip vs speed etc). Add parts apply base tune, go test, go back to go garage, change parts go test rinse repeat.

Originally Posted by: Shemp4Victory Go to Quoted Post


If you find M with clutch faster than AT more power to you.


It's not that I find M+C faster, it is faster in 90% of cars and that is a fact. Only high end supercars and some race cars it is not faster or the added difficulty of rev matching or getting poor launches is the only time it is not faster.

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#20 Posted : Thursday, May 7, 2020 5:43:09 AM(UTC)
Ok. I'm done. Took me like 2 hours or so.

Specs: Galant, stock engine, stock brakes, race suspension, race weight reduction, stock width of tires F/R, sport compound. That is starting point.
Every car is also setup in the same way (suspension, LSD, ARB, etc.). Gearing set as I would do it normally --> looking at „performance” window when „gearing” tab is open, looking for lowest numbers.
Did not open telemetry, so can't tell if I was shifting at best RPM. I was just shifting before rev limiter. While automatic was shifting where redzone starts.

Car1: PI700 177kW/304Nm, 1104kg, race gearbox+clutch
Car2: PI691 177kW/304Nm, 1104kg, street gearbox+stock clutch
Car3: PI694 177kW/304Nm, 1104kg, stock gearbox+clutch
Car4: PI700 183kW/314Nm, 1110kg, stock gearbox+clutch, street exhaust
Car5: PI700 183kW/314Nm, 1100kg, street gearbox+stock clutch, street exhaust
Car6: tune by Saeenu --> 335kW/610Nm, 1127kg, no idea on spec beside stock compound on tires + V8 + rear aero. I’m not going to do reverse engineering/tuning on this.

Horizon dragstrip (one run):
Car1: M+C: 13.355; M: 13.693; A: 13.901
Car2: M+C: 13.476; M: 13.994; A: 14.379
Car3: M+C: 13.325; M: 13.765; A: 14.230
Car4: M+C: 13.189; M: 13.621; A: 14.076
Car5: M+C: 13.268; M: 13.788; A: 14.169
Car6: M+C: 11.293; M: 11.523; A: 11.902


Bamburg circuit (rivals, standing start, one lap):
Car1: M+C: 1:06.674; M: 1:07.128; A: 1:07.721
Car2: M+C: 1:06.954; M: 1:07.796; A: 1:08.607
Car3: M+C: 1:06.927; M: 1:07.649; A: 1:08.028
Car4: M+C: 1:06.393; M: 1:07.098; A: 1:07.923
Car5: M+C: 1:07.093; M: 1:07.732; A: 1:08.139
Car6: M+C: 1:03.460; M: 1:04.426; A: 1:06.090

I'm suprised that stock gearbox (car4 and car3) was faster than upgraded ones, but on the other hand it was always one gear less to shift. Maybe better usage of power/torque curve.
But rest is not a suprise.
Maybe if you setup race gearbox (every gear) better it could shave some time. But it would be still slower than any manual.

Edited by user Thursday, May 7, 2020 5:45:13 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#21 Posted : Thursday, May 7, 2020 6:23:37 AM(UTC)
Why did you not do stock gearbox stock clutch, whatever part will give you the most power to fill the pi gap? Your test ignored what would have given m+c the biggest advantage.

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#22 Posted : Thursday, May 7, 2020 7:45:46 AM(UTC)
Car3 and car4 are stock gearbox and stock clutch. I guess "stock gearbox+clutch" was misleading?
Car3 was just Car1 without any gearbox/clutch upgrades. Car4 was Car3 + other parts to reach PI B700 ;)
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#23 Posted : Thursday, May 7, 2020 7:57:17 AM(UTC)
Yea sorry, read it as stock gearbox + upgraded clutch. Thanks for clarifying.

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#24 Posted : Thursday, May 7, 2020 10:18:01 AM(UTC)
Thought I'd add my thoughts to this as I'm a recent convert to manual after driving for years (since FM2) using auto.

I don't play enough of FH to be overly competitive as it is a relaxing game for me, but do run the weekly HLC in FM7. During a recent event at Le Mans Bugatti (the event that started the conversion process), I ran almost 3 seconds faster by taking the car out of auto and leaving it in 4th (only ran it in 1 gear as I couldn't get used to using gears in 2 days). That's just 1 example where I've taken a handful of seconds out of existing times I've run.
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#25 Posted : Thursday, May 7, 2020 11:47:48 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ziperrPL Go to Quoted Post
I'm suprised that stock gearbox (car4 and car3) was faster than upgraded ones, but on the other hand it was always one gear less to shift. Maybe better usage of power/torque curve. But rest is not a suprise. Maybe if you setup race gearbox (every gear) better it could shave some time. But it would be still slower than any manual.


The Galant is a car with weird gearbox options. The stock gearbox on the Galant has closer ratios than the street, sport, and race transmissions, so it will almost always be faster by default. Also, only the race transmission has a shift speed benefit. Stock should handily beat street and sport without tuning.
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