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Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#101 Posted : Friday, November 22, 2019 9:35:09 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
I mentioned that back on page 1. I just think it compromises the game design to tailor it towards engagement metrics rather than the best interest of the players.


  1. Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
    I just think it compromises the game design. . .

    That's your opinion based on what you think the game should be and not the actual game that PG delivered to us.


  2. Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
    . . . to tailor it towards engagement metrics. . .

    Isn't that what a game publisher is supposed to do? Or are they supposed to make a game so unappealing that players intermittently play it if ever at all? The "engagement metrics" must be suggesting to PG that their approach is working. So why would they ruin that with your suggestions? How would they stay in business if they didn't pay attention to those numbers? What faith would Microsoft have in PG's leadership if they tailored everything to what @Lowe0 specifically wanted rather than what the broad-based numbers were telling them?


  3. Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
    . . .rather than the best interest of the players.

    And whose interests would those be? Yours? What about mine? 'The Trial' is the one feature of the Playlist that I actually look forward to each week, and your suggestions would do nothing more than adversely affect the quality of that experience for me or anyone else who enjoys it.

    I agree that offline players, such as yourself, should eventually have access to the same cars that are made available to online players of the standard product. However, if your access to those vehicles is delayed, then so be it. I don't think that you can really demand anything more than that from PG simply because you've chosen to do less for their "engagement metrics" than other players.

    If there's any fault on PG's part, then it's that they've overlooked the fact that some players can't get cars because they're "offline" and not because they find the Trial difficult. I don't believe for one second that PG is out to get back anyone who presents any resistance to their plans. My guess is that when they design a Seasonal Playlist, they're testing it on accounts with unlimited access to everything in the game. So it wouldn't surprise me a bit if they forget the fact that offline players can't get to 80% on the Seasonal Playlist when they eventually put a "Trial car" there. They just need to be more aware of what they're doing with the accessibility of rewards when they design a Playlist. A policy of putting exclusive cars into the 50% Seasonal Playlist slot or the Festival Playlist is a much better way of ensuring that people like yourself aren't permanently left out of the game. Either that or make Tommy Bargains a featured car dealer once every three months. Aside from that, you'd need to convince us online players why we shouldn't be playing 'The Trial' if you really want to gain any traction with getting "paid" in Forzathon Points instead of an entire reward car. If you can't, then you're never going to be able to affect the "engagement metrics" enough to prompt PG to change the status quo.

    Anyway, I'm not here to defend PG. However, I am here to defend my right to have a quality, online experience because I'm actually paying for it with an Xbox Live Gold subscription. So my apologies if I show very little sympathy to those that dislike online play and are attempting to affect the quality of those features that I'm perpetually paying for in addition to the cost of the base product.

Well said :)
All though everyone has a valid point.

What seems to have been forgotten by PG: Go it Alone or Team Up
Players can choose to play alone, cooperatively or join multiplayer for casual fun or ranked teams. In addition, integrated Mixer broadcasting and spectating features add to an already fun and rewarding experience.

Edited by user Friday, November 22, 2019 10:07:03 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#102 Posted : Friday, November 22, 2019 6:24:51 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
That's an impressive number there. However, how does that one figure explain your online play? Frankly, it doesn't, because it's just one data point. You were correct when you originally described it as "engagement metrics" because it is a culmination of many data points -- in other words, "metrics" is plural. However, your offline activity number doesn't provide any useful information to how you've been spending your time online. Let's take 'The Trial' for instance, what sort of information would be useful to PG? How about the number of attempts, the number of wins, and the total amount of time spent there. That sort of data is helpful to those designing future Trials because it lets the devs know whether or not they're making it too difficult or too easy, and lets them know if it's interesting enough to get players coming back for another round or two. . . for fun. The online metrics over time will tell them if they're succeeding with each update they release. 300 hours of offline play doesn't tell them any of that.

I'm playing with an Internet connection. If they can't collect data from me while I'm playing, well, that's not my fault.
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
If you're asking what the issue is with allowing a competing method of attaining the same reward as 'The Trial' during the same season; it's that it negatively impacts the number of people who'd opt to play 'The Trial'. If you want an example of what that would look like, then simply go to a Forzathon Live event and see how much of a ghost town it can be at times without proper incentivization.

Why would you want people there who don't want to be there? We'd just idle until the rest of you carried us by sheer chance.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#103 Posted : Friday, November 22, 2019 8:28:11 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
@seanbil

I ain't quoting that. I get what you say.

You should be thankful that the devs put any effort at all to release content on a regular basis. I've voiced my dissatisfaction with the game early on when I didn't know any better with how to play it. After understanding it more over time, I realized that PG had been taking action all the while to try to accommodate players' issues. Maybe your specific concerns haven't been addressed yet, but certainly some others have. Recently they brought Toyota back to the game. It's what many have asked of PG.

Anyhow, I'm not really sure what your position is on some things because I've seen your posts pop-up now and then and it can be difficult to tell from what side of the hill that you're speaking from at any given moment. However, I do recall in one of those posts that you essentially advocated giving cars away because the game felt like a "grind" to you. So when I apply that information to your issue with the Trial, it just sounds as though you don't want to put forth the effort to simply play it or even the Playlist:
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
Spending time to reach even 50% on the Playlist isn't grinding? Surely enough 50% takes 2 hours at most but it still takes time, and it still involves doing boring things such as racking up a million score in a Lamborghini, or running events you may not want to run, such as the Community Championships where the devs pick routes and randomly add unintended conditions that ruin the events themselves (recent complaint on Discord).

Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
I know people who have difficulty with the offline Seasonals, which I usually complete on my first try. Restarts usually involve trying to achieve 100% wins on a higher difficulty than required. So yes, there's a big fluctuation in player skill in this game and the more invested ones like you and me are a minority. This is in a game where you can rewind your way to victory and it'll still count, even on Unbeatable. Can't do that online obviously.

Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
The Playlist is so stringent, it even motivated GTPlanet to write an article in criticism of it when it came out.

Others like Ubisoft are doing this timed nonsense as well, but Ubisoft (and EA) are hardly an example to be followed when it comes to business practices, right? Like I said before, first they take 1, 2 hours. When you realize, it's six. Twelve. Twenty-four. Two, three days.

What?! Three days? Seriously? Sometimes I can't tell if you're exaggerating your point to fit your argument or if the problem has to more to do with your skill level. Prior, I thought it was because you were an "offline" player because you talked about wanting to play FH4 on console and didn't want to pay for Xbox Live Gold. . .
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
No fees here on PC :p

Which is really sad. You guys just arrived in Forza and now get to call the shots. I find it largely disrespectful to the people who supported the Xbox One and went as far as saving the Xbox brand from being axed this gen.

It's thanks to these hardcore Xbox fans that you can play Forza on your PC today and gloat that online is free for you.

Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
I've been with Xbox and Forza since the first gen and very first Motorsport game but PC is the way to go now for a superior experience so why not.

The Xbox One X is more than enough for FH4. You need a very powerful rig to achieve 4K60 in the game, which is the only thing the Xbox One X can't do with it.

And with Project Scarlett we're getting mouse and keyboard support in lots of games (Gears 5 already has tentative support on the Xbox One) so there goes yet another "superiority" of the PC.

. . .but you obviously have access to the Trial, which means you have access to the 80% Seasonal Playlist rewards, unlike @Lowe0 who's literally prevented by the system from reaching seasonal rewards past 50% completion. If you're having difficulty with The Trial because of your skill level, then you have some of the best drivers in the game right here in the Forum who've offered their assistance to anyone who needs it. But rather than take them up on their offer, which would've saved you a lot of time in your real life, you've instead decided that time was better spent here. It's that sort of thing that befuddles me. I just started playing Forza for the first time this year, so I can only think that you'd have less of an issue getting through the Trial than me. Yet, I've always played The Trial through the random matchmaking pool and have typically gotten through it on the first try. Well. . . I suppose you can lead a horse to water. . .

So maybe you're just plain bored with playing and nothing more than that? That's understandable. Or maybe it's just that familiarity breeds contempt? Perhaps some time down the road, after another few Horizon Festival locations pass, you'll look fondly back on FH4 and remember how good things really were? Every game has challenges. That's why it's a game. If people don't enjoy the game, then it's simply not for them. And any game that isn't fun is going to feel like a "grind" for that person. Take a good look at @Lowe0: He's got 300 hours of offline play and actually farms credits in order to buy the exclusive cars from the AH that he can't get for being an offline player. I can respect his commitment to the game because it's not for laziness that he can't complete his collection at the moment. To be blunt, your complaint seems like sour grapes compared to his complaint.

Or maybe what you were really asking for all this time was an "Easy Button"?
Easy Button

Anyway. . .
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
Now, I ask: if Forza Horizon 4 is such a commercial and critical success, why are you guys trying to dictate when and how we should play? Why so much emphasis on stalling us and making us collect stuff?

Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
FH4 on the other hand has 12+ million users who have played the game at some point and does not need such incentives since it's widely regarded as an excellent game and, in fact, among the best-rated AAA games in the last 14 months.

Is FH4 in its current form a "critical success" or is it not? Your position can wander at times making it confusing to understand your point. But anyway, you answered your own question. That's why I make an effort to quote things so that you'll know exactly what I'm referring to when I write a response.

Rank: R-Class Racing License
#104 Posted : Friday, November 22, 2019 10:04:17 PM(UTC)
@seanbil

At this point you're just clutching at straws. I've never said it takes me three days to complete a season. The original argument was that it starts with two hours and eventually the devs (let's cut Playground some slack here because they're not the only ones) will have you playing more and more, with challenges spanning across days.

Let's not forget that, when the Playlist was first introduced, the top rewards required 100% completion. Yes, you needed to play the game for 20 days, give or take, to be able to win the 100% prizes, due to the dailies.

I was drawn to Horizon because I could tailor the experience to suit my preferences and the Playlist significantly detracts from that.

And you can do better than pulling the "Easy Button card":

- I own every car in the game and multiples of various exclusives
- I have almost 600 hours in Horizon Life
- I have 3 stars in everything
- I regularly place high in the Trials
- I hold my own in PGG despite almost never playing it

One thing I don't have is a high Ranked placement, but I could have it if I wanted to, because I tend to do well even with bad cars. I'm not elite but I hold my own and that's much more than enough to trivialize the game in all accounts.

Since I consider Horizon a game where people are supposed to be able to express themselves however they want, timed exclusives tend to be incompatible with that when there's a skill wall between the content and the player. I can topple that wall very easily, but many others cannot.
May the forced induction be with you.

Alice >>>>>>>>>> Keira
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#105 Posted : Friday, November 22, 2019 10:17:56 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Sir iLex Go to Quoted Post
An important thing to understand this discussion is to not mistake popularity for quality. And this is what makes this such a hypothetical discussion.
It's mostly indy developers who can focus solely on quality without caring about popularity.
Big game companies don't have this luxury. They need to make a lot of money, so they need a popular game.
I am not saying that big games generally don't offer quality. I am just saying that they tend to make more concessions on quality to increase popularity.
Endless leveling, loot boxes (preferably random), unlocks etc. are all mechanics to keep people playing and are not necessarily qualitative improvements.

And you are right: the incentives make sure more people do the Trial.
The point I (and I think Lowe0 too) am trying to make. . .

Now you're just making a straw man argument. This conversation was and always has been about access to rewards. See @Lowe0's first post to this thread:
Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
The most desirable car is locked behind multiplayer, again. What a surprise.

The fact is that offline users don't have access to both 'The Trial' rewards and the 80% Seasonal Playlist rewards. The fact that I like the Trial and you don't is a difference of opinion. So we'll just have to agree to disagree.



Originally Posted by: Sir iLex Go to Quoted Post
The result of a more fun trial will also be that you have less players in it who don't want to do it, which then increases the quality of the game mode. . .

Again, let's take away this ambiguous language of "quality" and replace it with the correct terminology that I've been talking about all this time: Raw participation numbers. Ironically, you and I had this same conversation about participation numbers as a problem in FLEs in the Forzathon Live thread. So you should be very keen to understand that I'm not talking about "bad" players or the "quality" of players in any of my concern with the Trial. IMO, anyone who wants to play the Trial should be encouraged to do so regardless of their abilities or limitations. The talk of "cleansing" the lobbies of such players is discouraging to hear from people. I don't care how good or bad my teammates are; I will work with anyone who is available at any given moment to fill the roster as quickly and as completely as possible. Since this conversation has more to do with the impact of participation numbers on the Trial, I'm going to add something that @NightDriver7800 wrote to me earlier:
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
This one I think people don't realize. PG, or Microsoft, no idea who, but someone in there, is enamored with the concept of "everything is cool when you're part of a team", as sung in the Lego expansion. Someone wants to make team-based activities the core of the game, even at the cost of public opinion, and more, these activities must be the ones they created. But their concept is flawed on many, many levels:

- Most people don't want to team up with randies, especially when teammates are among the grievers (happened to me more than once). You can do Trials as many times as you want and people who don't need/want the prizes will exploit this.

. . . So let's take a step back and not besmirch the notion of "team play" as being an evil onto itself when the benefit of it is to help new players get accustomed to the game through the leadership and example of those with a better understanding of the game. And wouldn't the overall gaming environment benefit in the long-run as a result of new players getting better at the game? That's why I explained (in my previous response to you) how my skills in the game improved 10-fold after participating in the Trials, and learning how to improve my skills through the example of my experienced teammates. Do you think that might be the motive behind PG putting 2 team-based events in the playlist that are attached with desirable rewards? Also how does @NightDriver7800 know that public opinion is vastly against "team-based activities" as fact? . . .because of what a half-dozen people wrote in this Forum?
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
People into competitive racing have wholly disregarded team modes. Team Adventure is all but dead after the introduction of FFA, which creates a snowball effect: since it's easier to find lobbies in FFA, people will just play that rather than TA.
. . .
- This is more general but the more I inhabit the internet the less I want to team up with people, yet most gaming companies (even Sony, they're not doing it right now, but wait a couple years) are pushing co-op and competitive multiplayer over single player experiences. It's an interesting paradox in which people are growing far apart due to various differences but are also being pushed into doing things together, much of the time against their will.

People aren't disregarding Team Ranked Adventure because of FFA or because they don't like playing on a team. It's because Team Ranked Adventure has a flaw with its ranking system that some clubs are exploiting. The current atmosphere of that ranked mode also has nothing to do with any underlying anti-social behaviors of the player base for that same reason. And besides, isn't there a social "good" to bringing people together rather than driving them apart? I would be very impressed if gaming could be that mechanism to break down social barriers and to finally bring people together! Hallelujah!


Originally Posted by: Sir iLex Go to Quoted Post
. . .the experience of the Trial (which they seem to be doing now... this week was fun) people will play it without a big incentive. I would do a trial like this week's for a Super Wheelspin too.

Would you have known how "fun" this Trial was had there not been a significant reward attached to it that interested you? So essentially there really isn't anything wrong with the fundamental design of the Trial itself after all. It's just that its difficulty level needs to be carefully monitored. Sounds reasonable to me; and in fact, I've echoed that same sentiment in past season's threads about the Trial if you care to read them over again. Yet an incentive of some kind is still necessary? How surprising.

I will just say this: "Would you have worked as hard in school had you no valid motivation to do so?" If PG is trying to help its newest players to "Git Gud", then isn't the best way to do that through a hands-on approach with the help of others? And we already know that given an incentive to do something versus no incentive that most would only do something if given a personal benefit to do so. (Case in point: Remember the Nissan GT-R PO & Mercedes-AMG GT R PO gift car fiasco? Well that promotion drew in significantly more viewers for that stream than this week's show.) So could it be possible that this massive PG locked-rewards "conspiracy" was really about them finding a way to improve everyone's online experience from the ground up by motivating the one resource that was already available to them: Us?


Originally Posted by: Sir iLex Go to Quoted Post
And don't forget: Games are, or at least should be, a form of entertainment.

Okay, then let's take this discussion one final step further and completely remove the Playlist and all rewards from the game -- so no Trial, no more Seasonal Games and no more new cars to win. Is this car game more fun to you now than it was before? Or could it simply be that rewards are as much a part of a game as the rules themselves? In another way: Would it be more fun or less fun to go to a fair and to play a ring toss game that offered no prizes at all? @Lowe0 is playing this game from the standpoint of a car collector. So could it be that gaming and rewards aren't mutually exclusive to having fun -- that they're as much a part of a game as marketing is to selling goods? So would it be inherently wrong to use a coupon to buy the same product that someone else had to pay retail for without it? IMO, if you're willing to put the effort into looking for a discount, then you should be rewarded with paying less for something than someone else. So must we always confess our sin after presenting a coupon at the register? 🙏


Originally Posted by: Sir iLex Go to Quoted Post
The result of a more fun trial will also be that you have less players in it who don't want to do it, which then increases the quality of the game mode even further, attracting maybe even more people.
In other words: the quality of the Trial would increase. However, that is a gamble.

Firstly, the highlighted text doesn't make sense. No, reducing the value of the reward will cause those "who don't want to do it" to participate at all.
Secondly, to say that "a more fun trial" without a significant reward would attract "maybe more" people to the Trial than what we currently have now with the Ferrari Pista as the reward car is a B I G stretch, to be completely upfront with you. And you know that too. So let's not be disingenuous here for the sake of supporting something just for the sake of supporting something. We all know the answer to this, which is why you conditioned your argument as being a "gamble".
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
The people who want to have Ranked play in it are for the most part ex-Motorsport players who either found out they prefer Horizon or have gotten bored of Motorsport due to lack of significant updates and/or support.

See. . . this guy gets it! Incentives! Incentives! Incentives!



Originally Posted by: Sir iLex Go to Quoted Post
Regardless of the details it all comes down to:

Do you prefer to get sucked into a game because of the actual game or because of advanced psychological trickery.
I personally prefer the former, although I know I am not immune to the latter, especially when the two are intertwined.

Does either really matter if in the end you actually enjoy the game? Or are we all here in some sort of magical "Matrix" pretending to like this game and just going through the motions? Personally I'm having fun with it. So I'm sorry that you're not. Maybe PG needs to work more on their Jedi mind tricks because you're apparently immune to it! 😂


Anyway, it's been a pleasure discussing The Trial with you, but this discussion is clearly pulling the thread OT -- probably to the dismay of the Moderators. So I'll let you have the last word on the matter if you like! 👊🙂
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#106 Posted : Friday, November 22, 2019 10:43:03 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: GentlestSum522 Go to Quoted Post

Well said :)
All though everyone has a valid point.

What seems to have been forgotten by PG: Go it Alone or Team Up
Players can choose to play alone, cooperatively or join multiplayer for casual fun or ranked teams. In addition, integrated Mixer broadcasting and spectating features add to an already fun and rewarding experience.

Agreed, and thank you for the kind words, GentlestSum52! It's wonderful to find like-minded members in the Community who can appreciate and enjoy the many facets of the game.

As an aside, people rarely speak up on a Forum when they like how things are going. That said, there are millions of Horizon players and probably less than 50 active contributors to this Forum. Even if all 50-or-so of us complained about this game today, it's likely to not represent the majority sentiment because of the underlying impetus being heavily skewed toward those wanting to raise their concerns. Those players not speaking up are probably at home enjoying the game as we speak! 😉

Anyway, my apologies to you and to those reading this thread for the multi-posts I recently made, and for the discussion going OT. Unfortunately I thought those posts were better organized as separate responses from the point of readability. But not to fear; I'll consider this discussion finished as of this post -- much to everyone's delight, I'm sure. 😂



Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
That's an impressive number there. However, how does that one figure explain your online play? Frankly, it doesn't, because it's just one data point. You were correct when you originally described it as "engagement metrics" because it is a culmination of many data points -- in other words, "metrics" is plural. However, your offline activity number doesn't provide any useful information to how you've been spending your time online. Let's take 'The Trial' for instance, what sort of information would be useful to PG? How about the number of attempts, the number of wins, and the total amount of time spent there. That sort of data is helpful to those designing future Trials because it lets the devs know whether or not they're making it too difficult or too easy, and lets them know if it's interesting enough to get players coming back for another round or two. . . for fun. The online metrics over time will tell them if they're succeeding with each update they release. 300 hours of offline play doesn't tell them any of that.

I'm playing with an Internet connection. If they can't collect data from me while I'm playing, well, that's not my fault.

Again. . . You're selectively choosing to omit the part where you have no "engagement metrics" for online events such as 'The Trial', Ranked Adventure, FFA, Forzathon Live, and Playground Games. Or do you? I wouldn't know that. So you tell me!


Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
If you're asking what the issue is with allowing a competing method of attaining the same reward as 'The Trial' during the same season; it's that it negatively impacts the number of people who'd opt to play 'The Trial'. If you want an example of what that would look like, then simply go to a Forzathon Live event and see how much of a ghost town it can be at times without proper incentivization.

Why would you want people there who don't want to be there? We'd just idle until the rest of you carried us by sheer chance.

Who's "we"? Have you even played The Trial, because that has not been my experience at all?

At this point I really do believe that you're just trolling and don't have any intention to have a sincere discussion. Very well then.



Rank: D-Class Racing License
#107 Posted : Saturday, November 23, 2019 3:07:00 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Does either really matter if in the end you actually enjoy the game? Or are we all here in some sort of magical "Matrix" pretending to like this game and just going through the motions? Personally I'm having fun with it. So I'm sorry that you're not. Maybe PG needs to work more on their Jedi mind tricks because you're apparently immune to it! 😂


Anyway, it's been a pleasure discussing The Trial with you, but this discussion is clearly pulling the thread OT -- probably to the dismay of the Moderators. So I'll let you have the last word on the matter if you like! 👊🙂


That magical matrix you are talking about is called 'addiction' and it does happen in various degrees
And it is not about you and mem at least not for me. I might have derailed at some point, but I hooked into the discussion when we were talking about 'proper game design' or whatever it was called back then. That has little to do with you or me personally, but with the whole player base..

Anyway. I agree, it was a pleasure! Keep driving and have fun!
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#108 Posted : Saturday, November 23, 2019 3:23:53 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post

Again. . . You're selectively choosing to omit the part where you have no "engagement metrics" for online events such as 'The Trial', Ranked Adventure, FFA, Forzathon Live, and Playground Games.

Why should PG care if I'm playing online events, as long as I'm playing (and therefore have paid for) the game?

Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post

Or do you? I wouldn't know that. So you tell me!

IIRC achievements are public data. You could have looked up what I have and haven't done for yourself instead of whatever it is you're implying here.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#109 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2019 4:37:11 PM(UTC)
@seanbil
@Sir iLex

For me it looks like you were having a debate about what the game should be about to begin with.

Addictive game mechanics are reality, but sometimes risks involved, creating unnecessary convoluted mechanics to achieve thing X or Y backfire. For gamers that amounts for something forgettable, for studio that amounts for disaster.

In practical terms for players like sample on this forums, many of us play the game despite of it's weaknesses and frankly, there isn't any open world racers like it. I haven't tried Crew 2 but what I have heard it's physics are inferior to FH4.

So IMO it's important to make distinction between our interest as players and Playground Games subsidiary, Xbox subsidiary and Microsoft.

MS is huge corporation, which also means huge bureaucracy. Inside this bureaucracy studios fight for their position which amounts to their budgets and other options. Say game physics might be the most important hook there is, but stock is expecting micro transactions, in that situation game physics might be hard to sell upwards in bureaucracy.

So potential of addictive mechanics, whatever is likely to come to table. We play Horizon, then I think reality is that there are people working and careers and chair game. Supposed potential despite looking good on bureaucratic level might be actually something terrible to begin with from gamers point of view. It has happened that building game on this supposed potential has burned entire brands to the ground.

You two, and others interested, if you really want to get ahead give something to work with. There are good points from both but that doesn't yet build up to how make it better, and I mean better good to sell and good for players, which would also align with PG's interests and maybe, just maybe, perhaps it wouldn't be all in vain. MS didn't get licence from Toyota for free, so they have some fight left and that may, if, perhaps, whatever, be a very good sign for future of Horizon but only if complaints are also heard (we got Toyota right?) and players who like to be vocal can and will be vocal about how to make this or that better resulting in even better driving and car culture game.

Edited by user Thursday, November 28, 2019 4:38:50 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#110 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2019 9:54:29 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
@seanbil
@Sir iLex

For me it looks like you were having a debate about what the game should be about to begin with.

At this point. . . Who knows? LOL The "debate" was so convoluted that there were probably three or four different issues being conflated into what might have been about "what the game should be about." While I suppose that you could technically say that's what I was doing as well, in reality I was just in defense of what was already there in the game today. The other position was actually the hypothetical viewpoint -- what the game should be about.



Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Addictive game mechanics are reality, but sometimes risks involved, creating unnecessary convoluted mechanics to achieve thing X or Y backfire. For gamers that amounts for something forgettable, for studio that amounts for disaster.

Originally Posted by: Sir iLex Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Does either really matter if in the end you actually enjoy the game? Or are we all here in some sort of magical "Matrix" pretending to like this game and just going through the motions? Personally I'm having fun with it. So I'm sorry that you're not. Maybe PG needs to work more on their Jedi mind tricks because you're apparently immune to it! 😂


Anyway, it's been a pleasure discussing The Trial with you, but this discussion is clearly pulling the thread OT -- probably to the dismay of the Moderators. So I'll let you have the last word on the matter if you like! 👊🙂


That magical matrix you are talking about is called 'addiction' and it does happen in various degrees
And it is not about you and mem at least not for me. I might have derailed at some point, but I hooked into the discussion when we were talking about 'proper game design' or whatever it was called back then. That has little to do with you or me personally, but with the whole player base..

Anyway. I agree, it was a pleasure! Keep driving and have fun!

Unfortunately that wasn't what I was talking about. . . it's what @Sir iLex wanted to talk about! The interpretation that he chose to make resulted in another straw man that just derailed the discussion even more. However, I'm partly to blame for that because I didn't elaborate further about what I meant by the words that he jumped on in that 2nd highlighted text above. I wasn't referring to gaming addiction when referencing "The Matrix"; although gaming addiction is a whole other topic that is worthy of its own, separate discussion.

What I was saying to @Sir iLex was that I enjoy playing 'The Trial'. Yet, despite saying that I enjoy it, there will be those people out there who will still suggest that my enjoyment of it can't be "real" simply because they, themselves don't like it. As an example, I used to think that everyone hated the Seasonal Games just because I didn't like it that much. Then there were those few brave souls who would actually speak up about how much they loved it! That's when I started to realize that there are so many parts to this game that appeal to so many people in so many different ways than to just me. Everyone plays this game differently because they can! The conclusion that we can draw from this is that, while a lot of people here on the Forum may give the appearance of feeling a certain way about this game, there is the very real possibility that it doesn't represent the actual feelings of the player base at large due to the number of active contributors to this Forum being at about 50-or-so people.

Ironically, I did mention gaming addiction as a serious concern in a conversation with that other guy in the "Festival Playlist Thread". What I wrote to him at the time was the following:
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
I appreciate you taking the time to have a discussion about a matter that's important to you and bringing it to the attention of the Community. My initial contribution to this thread was primarily about PG, as a game publisher, being cognizant of what they're trying to accomplish in certain areas of the game, so as not to contribute to the growing epidemic of mental health issues that can arise from gaming -- that their primary objective be to do no harm above everything else, up to and including the spurring of player activity.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#111 Posted : Saturday, November 30, 2019 5:25:45 AM(UTC)
What I was thinking was how to make weekly Trial better? I do it for fun too and now that we have had quite a few Trials with something else than S2 I find myself exploring more, building different cars to try out. There's also all history aspect, car culture aspect there. I did couple of RWD tunes for first Classic Racers Trial couple of weeks ago. Meant to play the heck out of last weeks Classic Racers event but didn't had time to do that, but anyway, while doing this weeks trial with different cars which I AWD swapped, I came to think how to make these things work with RWD restriction but keep events accessible and fun for most players.

Unless there's a new exclusive rewards I get are dupes and I sell them via auction house usually. I'm close to 200 million credits, don't need credits anymore either but maybe some players who haven't had time to do playlist end up having some of those cars. It's weird thing to say from someone whom have every car not available via Autoshow excluding couple of PO cars, but the whole car collector thing doesn't work for me LOL. Yet I suppose I happen to have all that stuff just because of I just kept playing the game.

The crossroads here is that current playlist format works for me because of events that allow some sort of curiosity, like what are my limits on stock rwd dirt races on Unbeatable? What seasonal PR stunts Bugatti Veyron X can't do? (there has been few but I still wonder if couple of them were unattainable because of my limits, not the car). Community and Developer championships with custom routes, have been mostly great, yet another ways to experience cars and world.

So pretty ok for now, but were things different, repetitive grind for the sake of collectors, which I don't say is any less valid way to play the game than anything else, but whom I don't believe in the end make that huge amount of player base in this style of game, situation might be different.

So while what we have now IMO works, I wouldn't necessarily take it for granted. Feedback is important and sometimes it might be common interest also to listen to opposing side. I actually remembered one of the most infamous flops on the market, it was some Star Wars game by EA and there was so much of controversy about it that I dig bit further and it came down to that publisher has spent really much time and resources to addictive mechanics but failed the control what they started and the whole focus of game was lost resulting disaster.

I'm not trying to say what to think or do, just that aligning interests that might be actually achievable might be in feedback how to make some feature better from players point of view.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#112 Posted : Saturday, November 30, 2019 5:41:02 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
What I was thinking was how to make weekly Trial better? I do it for fun too and now that we have had quite a few Trials with something else than S2 I find myself exploring more, building different cars to try out.

I think that the past six seasons of the Trial have been quite fun and reasonable for not being S2-based, which is my preferred class of races. IMO, PG's approach to those Trials has been a good alternative to adjusting Drivatar difficulty itself.

From what I've seen in the Forum, the number of complaints about the Trial has dropped significantly since moving away from the very extreme format of S2 + Street Scene in particular. I especially enjoyed this season's C-Class Rods & Customs Trial for it being based on cars that I'm totally unfamiliar with due to my preference for S1/S2 MP races.

I think that PG has got the right idea if making The Trial appeal to a general audience wasn't a coincidence. Even as an S1/S2 driver, I'm all for seeing things continue the way they have been during the past several weeks of The Trial. The move away from the "extreme" car classes is an interesting and welcome change for me!


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