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Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#26 Posted : Wednesday, October 16, 2019 8:10:45 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Red Driinks Go to Quoted Post
So, yeah, I uninstalled the game.

I love the Forza series. It's my first Forza Horizon game that I really tried to play (I think I'm influence level 80 something ?) because the others weren't great to me. I'm used to Forza Motorsport games, which are what makes me play the Forza series, but Playground Games, unlike Turn 10, to some extent, isn't really into realistic driving it seems.

Having started both FM7 and FH4 this year as a replacement for another racing game, I can relate to what you're talking about as it's still pretty fresh in my mind. I think the biggest obstacle I had with FH4 was to understand how to "play" it. In the beginning it really did seem boring to me despite the flashiness of the Festival. On the surface, none of it made sense to me in comparison to FM7. I think it was about level 62 when I started to "get" what the game was about and when I began to like the overall concept. I think when I finally reached a prestige level of 1 (or just before that), I had a very good understanding of how to play the game for me rather than for someone else (if that makes any sense). And to be honest, it's not a good thing when it takes that long for a game to be "catchy" to a person.

I think if you took a little more time to figure out what you want out of the game, then you'll have more fun with it. You just have to make it your game. For me it's about S1/S2 road/street races. Being an open-world environment, FH4 isn't built in the way of FM7 in terms of structure. So I just look for the things that interest me in the game and play it the way I want to, instead of doing every, little, thing the game has to offer. And PG won't turn this game into another FM7 because the vast majority of people already like what they see.


Originally Posted by: Red Driinks Go to Quoted Post
Driving in cockpit view doesn't feels right. The movement of the steering wheel doesn't seems to be linked to the movement of your own steering wheel or joystick, which isn't the case in Forza Motorsport 7. It just feels like I'm driving in Burnout Paradise, cars are too easy to turn around and it's a little confusing.

I originally started with Motorsport 7 and I remember the switch to Horizon 4 being significant in terms of drivability with a controller. I've read about the subject of wheels being very good in FM7 but not recommended in FH4 discussed somewhere in the FM7 forum, as well as on some other websites. I don't believe that the two games share the same steering algorithms for the simple reason that the steering assists between the two games for a controller are not identical. I can drive with "SIM Steering" in FH4, but in FM7 "SIM Steering" is something else. I think that "SIM Steering" in FH4 is more akin to "Normal Steering" in FM7, and that "SIM Steering" in FM7 is the reason why players prefer using a wheel in FM7 over FH4. In other words, FH4 needs a setting called, "Wheel" that is based on FM7's "SIM Steering" algorithm, and FM7's "SIM Steering" needs to be relabeled, "Wheel".

Also, in regard to driving experience, I'd have to agree that FH4 is probably better for controller users because controller use in FM7 is pretty awful IMHO. Therefore, I can only assume that wheel users wouldn't enjoy the driving experience in FH4 as much as they would in FM7. However, I think that some of the differences in drivability between the two games might also have to do with differences in the tire/grip physics, because FM7, to me, feels as though I'm driving a stationary hockey puck on a moving backdrop.


Originally Posted by: Red Driinks Go to Quoted Post
The game is blatantly pay to progress. I don't think that relying on spinning wheels to get rich is good. It's not great either to rely on selling cars at auction to get money, now I don't mind people that do it, they can do whatever, it's a game, but I don't like selling cars. I don't think I should have to sell my cars to get money, because I play in one of the highest difficulties (Pro I think it is ?) and I just struggle to earn anything. First pos will make me earn like 12 to 15K, which is nothing. In FM7 I earn 100+K per race due to the fact that you can chose the length of the race, even in solo (Most of my races last 15 minutes each). I also play with no assists except for traction control, becaue the AI seems to have it enabled at all times. Mind you, in FM7, playing with no assists doesn't changes the money you earn at the end of the race. I know that there's a VIP pass, but I don't feel like I should be paying a VIP pass for this game because it's litteraly ridiculous when you compare it to FM7. I have the VIP pass on FM7, but before that I still earned at least 50K per race before due to the length of the races. I didn't "needed" the VIP pass, whereas it seems to be mandatory for FH4 if you really wanna progress (Which to me, is collecting cars. I love cars, I don't love collecting clothes, I don't love driving around listening to whatever the hell this song playlist is, and I don't love spending half my time with stupid players [No you're not a stupid player. It's a minority, but it's such an annoying minority that without race regulations it's not even an option to play PVP for me.].)

FH4's progression model is a lot better than what I've seen in other games. There is some truth that progress is somewhat hindered by not buying the VIP Pass or FH4 Ultimate version, but it's up to the player to decide whether it's worthwhile to pay for an easier route or not. For instance, without the VIP Pass or Ultimate version, I had to earn 5M credits to buy Lake Lodge in order to get double Forzathon points. As it turns out, that was not a very good use of credits as I have yet to find anything useful to purchase at the Forzathon Shop aside from (uh…) more clothes. IIRC, FH4 Ultimate players earn double credits, which makes it much easier to buy that castle with the barn find car than it would for an FH4 Standard player. After playing FH4 for +/- 8 months, I've saved up enough credits to get the castle, whereas I could've been onto other parts of the game by now had I opted for an easier path. Also, without buying Ultimate or the Expansions, I currently cannot complete the "Story Superstar" Star Card as there's not enough chapters to meet the requirements. Even if there were, without buying Ultimate or the Expansions, the progression to reach "Story Superstar" would entail 3-starring every chapter, which makes for a more difficult progression than paying for an easier route.

Other than the "Story Superstar", there really isn't anything in the game that prevents anyone from progressing as far as a premium player. So I'm not against that as a business model if paying a little more only equates to an easier progression in the game. In contrast, that's much, much better than the so-called "free-to-play" games that completely impede progress somewhere down the road with microtransaction paywall roadblocks. I've personally seen what "thirsty" companies look like; and to compare, Forza Horizon and Forza Motorsport are far from that example, and provide really good value for the money, IMHO.


Originally Posted by: Red Driinks Go to Quoted Post
So yeah, in the end I expected a lot and got...A very average experience. I'd say a 12/20.

Fair enough, but since you already paid for the game, it might serve you better to give it a few weeks and to revisit it again with some fresh eyes. Maybe you'll find something in it that you didn't see before?
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#27 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2019 1:54:35 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Red Driinks Go to Quoted Post
So, yeah, I uninstalled the game.

I love the Forza series. It's my first Forza Horizon game that I really tried to play (I think I'm influence level 80 something ?) because the others weren't great to me. I'm used to Forza Motorsport games, which are what makes me play the Forza series, but Playground Games, unlike Turn 10, to some extent, isn't really into realistic driving it seems.

Having started both FM7 and FH4 this year as a replacement for another racing game, I can relate to what you're talking about as it's still pretty fresh in my mind. I think the biggest obstacle I had with FH4 was to understand how to "play" it. In the beginning it really did seem boring to me despite the flashiness of the Festival. On the surface, none of it made sense to me in comparison to FM7. I think it was about level 62 when I started to "get" what the game was about and when I began to like the overall concept. I think when I finally reached a prestige level of 1 (or just before that), I had a very good understanding of how to play the game for me rather than for someone else (if that makes any sense). And to be honest, it's not a good thing when it takes that long for a game to be "catchy" to a person.

I think if you took a little more time to figure out what you want out of the game, then you'll have more fun with it. You just have to make it your game. For me it's about S1/S2 road/street races. Being an open-world environment, FH4 isn't built in the way of FM7 in terms of structure. So I just look for the things that interest me in the game and play it the way I want to, instead of doing every, little, thing the game has to offer. And PG won't turn this game into another FM7 because the vast majority of people already like what they see.


Regarding this and your other post in Winter Playlist topic.

There really are many ways to play Horizon 4 and my experience is the same, it was important to learn to game for me. There are lot's of features I use very little. I don't play the Auction House game, I haven't managed to get single livery done, I paint cars sometimes though. I really rarely go do Cross Country events if they are not on Playlist... lot's of things I don't do but I know are important, even the main attraction to many people in game's player base.

I mostly enjoy Street scene, D- and C-class events, listen to music via Spotify. Have done runs in B-class recently and going to try things in A-class next and I prefer cars in their stock form. I like discovering things about cars that way.

I sure hope that people in Microsoft understand and value different strength of Motorsports and Horizon.

Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Red Driinks Go to Quoted Post
Driving in cockpit view doesn't feels right. The movement of the steering wheel doesn't seems to be linked to the movement of your own steering wheel or joystick, which isn't the case in Forza Motorsport 7. It just feels like I'm driving in Burnout Paradise, cars are too easy to turn around and it's a little confusing.

I originally started with Motorsport 7 and I remember the switch to Horizon 4 being significant in terms of drivability with a controller. I've read about the subject of wheels being very good in FM7 but not recommended in FH4 discussed somewhere in the FM7 forum, as well as on some other websites. I don't believe that the two games share the same steering algorithms for the simple reason that the steering assists between the two games for a controller are not identical. I can drive with "SIM Steering" in FH4, but in FM7 "SIM Steering" is something else. I think that "SIM Steering" in FH4 is more akin to "Normal Steering" in FM7, and that "SIM Steering" in FM7 is the reason why players prefer using a wheel in FM7 over FH4. In other words, FH4 needs a setting called, "Wheel" that is based on FM7's "SIM Steering" algorithm, and FM7's "SIM Steering" needs to be relabeled, "Wheel".

Also, in regard to driving experience, I'd have to agree that FH4 is probably better for controller users because controller use in FM7 is pretty awful IMHO. Therefore, I can only assume that wheel users wouldn't enjoy the driving experience in FH4 as much as they would in FM7. However, I think that some of the differences in drivability between the two games might also have to do with differences in the tire/grip physics, because FM7, to me, feels as though I'm driving a stationary hockey puck on a moving backdrop.


I played FM7 a year or so and then moved to Horizon 3. Back then almost all top leaderboard scores were achieved by gamepad. They changed Sim steering to be more friendly to wheel users later. As it is now though, I don't know how competitive pad users are against wheel users in leagues. When I played FM7 a bit again couple of months ago, my experience was that Sim steering on pad wasn't as easy on higher class cars as it used to be. Then the game is a lot about tuning, don't know if anything has changed there which could also explain why it felt different.

FM7 cars feeling they do was I think, byproduct from homogulation. FM6 had more distinct features with different cars, but MP crowd hated it, so Turn 10 came up with homogulation method which resulted every car feeling like weird crossbreed between go-kart and Saab 99. Also FM7 feels like it relies much more to visual ques outside of car than other forms of feedback, which adds to issue and cherry on top was that some default tunes were way off.

For what it's worth, I think I made a short visit in league 2 and my take of supposed realism is that both FM7 and FH4 are simcades. Horizon has tons of grip under any condition, no waterplaning like in FM7, which suits for me because it makes possible to use about any car on almost any event (excluding CC) and have quite a different experience, where FM7 have better weather mechanics but your classic racer Ferrari from the '50's feels like Saab 99, which is rather strange considering Saab is FWD.

Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Red Driinks Go to Quoted Post
The game is blatantly pay to progress. I don't think that relying on spinning wheels to get rich is good. It's not great either to rely on selling cars at auction to get money, now I don't mind people that do it, they can do whatever, it's a game, but I don't like selling cars. I don't think I should have to sell my cars to get money, because I play in one of the highest difficulties (Pro I think it is ?) and I just struggle to earn anything. First pos will make me earn like 12 to 15K, which is nothing. In FM7 I earn 100+K per race due to the fact that you can chose the length of the race, even in solo (Most of my races last 15 minutes each). I also play with no assists except for traction control, becaue the AI seems to have it enabled at all times. Mind you, in FM7, playing with no assists doesn't changes the money you earn at the end of the race. I know that there's a VIP pass, but I don't feel like I should be paying a VIP pass for this game because it's litteraly ridiculous when you compare it to FM7. I have the VIP pass on FM7, but before that I still earned at least 50K per race before due to the length of the races. I didn't "needed" the VIP pass, whereas it seems to be mandatory for FH4 if you really wanna progress (Which to me, is collecting cars. I love cars, I don't love collecting clothes, I don't love driving around listening to whatever the hell this song playlist is, and I don't love spending half my time with stupid players [No you're not a stupid player. It's a minority, but it's such an annoying minority that without race regulations it's not even an option to play PVP for me.].)

FH4's progression model is a lot better than what I've seen in other games. There is some truth that progress is somewhat hindered by not buying the VIP Pass or FH4 Ultimate version, but it's up to the player to decide whether it's worthwhile to pay for an easier route or not. For instance, without the VIP Pass or Ultimate version, I had to earn 5M credits to buy Lake Lodge in order to get double Forzathon points. As it turns out, that was not a very good use of credits as I have yet to find anything useful to purchase at the Forzathon Shop aside from (uh…) more clothes. IIRC, FH4 Ultimate players earn double credits, which makes it much easier to buy that castle with the barn find car than it would for an FH4 Standard player. After playing FH4 for +/- 8 months, I've saved up enough credits to get the castle, whereas I could've been onto other parts of the game by now had I opted for an easier path. Also, without buying Ultimate or the Expansions, I currently cannot complete the "Story Superstar" Star Card as there's not enough chapters to meet the requirements. Even if there were, without buying Ultimate or the Expansions, the progression to reach "Story Superstar" would entail 3-starring every chapter, which makes for a more difficult progression than paying for an easier route.

Other than the "Story Superstar", there really isn't anything in the game that prevents anyone from progressing as far as a premium player. So I'm not against that as a business model if paying a little more only equates to an easier progression in the game. In contrast, that's much, much better than the so-called "free-to-play" games that completely impede progress somewhere down the road with microtransaction paywall roadblocks. I've personally seen what "thirsty" companies look like; and to compare, Forza Horizon and Forza Motorsport are far from that example, and provide really good value for the money, IMHO.

At some point when I was playing FH3 I just started ignoring wheelspin mechanic, same with FH2 (which I bought later). I have VIP, both expansions for FH3 and FH4, none for FH2 because they aren't for sale anymore but I didn't miss them.

I don't know, for those who play game for car collector aspect credits are important, for those who race credits happen. VIP makes things happen faster but I have over 100 million credits and have had every car unobtainable from auto show for months (excluding new exclusives of course). I have LEGO Speed Championships cars in my garage and I don't know what to do with them. I have no use for the whole LEGO expansion. Fortune Island has one good drift zone, Trailblazer PR stunts but mostly it was about Treasure hunt and throwing credits to player. As game expansion it's trivial and I haven't visited it for a month or so. I liked Blizzard Mountain expansion for FH3 a lot, Hot Wheels was sort of surreal. With FH4, to be frank about it, this time around standard edition users may have a better game experience overall without unnecessary clutter than Deluxe / Ultimate edition owners like me.

Fortune Island story is Drift Club 2.0 which is more of the same as in mainland, but I'm pretty sure PG will release additional business in coming updates so standard edition owners can finish "Story Superstar" star card.


FH4 is better game in some aspects that it's given credit but it fails to keep players engaged long enough for them to discover their thing in game. There were stories added later but they don't really bridge the gap. Lot's of things could be done with Playlist but... perhaps someone has a hammer and lives in a world full of nails.

It was designed to look pretty, have lot of first reaction appeal to gaming press to get good reviews, like any game, it's business. But it looks like somehow someone inside forgot that new physics, environments, seasons and cars make actually really good gaming experience and sell that to audience. Front loaded design doesn't create connection for players to stick around and start testing their own limits, that going on four wheel slide in middle of Edinburgh can be manageable and fun and experience itself has it's own reward and things like that.

I don't believe customer championing a commercial product is necessarily a good idea, but some things in this game, some people made effort to make all that happen. It's a pity that it came out feeling like uneven experience, because of quite superficial things IMO, than what game actually has to offer.

Edited by user Thursday, October 17, 2019 1:58:15 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
#28 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2019 4:10:10 PM(UTC)
I love the horizon series ever since the first one. I've been playing forza since FM3. My biggest issues with horizon 4 though are that the cars don't sound as unique as they used to, some of the cars that once had good body mods don't anymore, and that it doesn't feel like a true festival anymore. This is sad because I loved the games but none of them capture what the first one did... Or rather still does.

Dear Turn10 and Playground Games please make the cars sound unique again, sadly it's why I stopped playing the game.
Rank: Racing Permit
#29 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2019 5:31:27 PM(UTC)
I only have one legitimate complaint...not even a complaint..
I've sold around 1600 tunes and liveries..to this date I have not received 100cr
from any one one... It's interesting that the night before I note how many
credits I have..the next time I log on I check my messages from the game
and see that I have 6000 for one business and 7200 from another and yet my
total credits have not moved from the night before...It's been going on for so
long I quit checking...
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#30 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2019 8:42:38 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Regarding this and your other post in Winter Playlist topic.

There really are many ways to play Horizon 4 and my experience is the same, it was important to learn to game for me. There are lot's of features I use very little. I don't play the Auction House game, I haven't managed to get single livery done, I paint cars sometimes though. I really rarely go do Cross Country events if they are not on Playlist... lot's of things I don't do but I know are important, even the main attraction to many people in game's player base.

I mostly enjoy Street scene, D- and C-class events, listen to music via Spotify. Have done runs in B-class recently and going to try things in A-class next and I prefer cars in their stock form. I like discovering things about cars that way.

I sure hope that people in Microsoft understand and value different strength of Motorsports and Horizon.

Exactly! There was a time when I just drove around the map for no reason because I thought that's what I was supposed to do since I was earning "influence" (whatever that meant). It wasn't until months later that I even realized there was a playlist with weekly events. Lol

When I got accustomed to the Motorsport format, I just as well assumed that a lot of people also felt the same way as I did about Horizon. While I don't care for cross country events either, I was quite surprised to learn how many did like it, or how many people liked doing activities which were completely tangential to racing. Likewise, that there were people out there who actually hated road racing! So, nothing today surprises me about the Horizon player base because FH4 has got to be doing a lot of things right for so many people to feel strongly about it in different ways.

Since Motorsport and Horizon are both mature product lines, I can't think of a good reason why Microsoft would want to merge the games together when they can make twice the amount of money selling two separate products. In fact, I find it amusing when I see players, who are strongly committed to one camp or the other, vehemently express their disdain for the other side when the two games really aren't even stepping on each other's turf!


Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
I played FM7 a year or so and then moved to Horizon 3. Back then almost all top leaderboard scores were achieved by gamepad. They changed Sim steering to be more friendly to wheel users later. As it is now though, I don't know how competitive pad users are against wheel users in leagues. When I played FM7 a bit again couple of months ago, my experience was that Sim steering on pad wasn't as easy on higher class cars as it used to be. Then the game is a lot about tuning, don't know if anything has changed there which could also explain why it felt different.

FM7 cars feeling they do was I think, byproduct from homogulation. FM6 had more distinct features with different cars, but MP crowd hated it, so Turn 10 came up with homogulation method which resulted every car feeling like weird crossbreed between go-kart and Saab 99. Also FM7 feels like it relies much more to visual ques outside of car than other forms of feedback, which adds to issue and cherry on top was that some default tunes were way off.

For what it's worth, I think I made a short visit in league 2 and my take of supposed realism is that both FM7 and FH4 are simcades. Horizon has tons of grip under any condition, no waterplaning like in FM7, which suits for me because it makes possible to use about any car on almost any event (excluding CC) and have quite a different experience, where FM7 have better weather mechanics but your classic racer Ferrari from the '50's feels like Saab 99, which is rather strange considering Saab is FWD.

When I see the "Forza" name on a game, my initial expectation is that the driving experience should feel "seamless" when switching between games. Since the two games are built under different roofs, I'd hope that at some point there'd be some standardization as to what the overall controller/wheel "behavior" should be like for future versions of each product. As of now, going between the two games for me is a bit of a distraction. While both games are probably influenced by their respective versions of ForzaTech, I think that the devs could hammer out proper algorithms for things like "turn rate" that will be more uniform between the two games. From there, things like tuning become a lot more intuitive after understanding the base line behavior of the physical controls themselves.


Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
With FH4, to be frank about it, this time around standard edition users may have a better game experience overall without unnecessary clutter than Deluxe / Ultimate edition owners like me.

Fortune Island story is Drift Club 2.0 which is more of the same as in mainland, but I'm pretty sure PG will release additional business in coming updates so standard edition owners can finish "Story Superstar" star card.


FH4 is better game in some aspects that it's given credit but it fails to keep players engaged long enough for them to discover their thing in game. There were stories added later but they don't really bridge the gap. Lot's of things could be done with Playlist but... perhaps someone has a hammer and lives in a world full of nails.

It was designed to look pretty, have lot of first reaction appeal to gaming press to get good reviews, like any game, it's business. But it looks like somehow someone inside forgot that new physics, environments, seasons and cars make actually really good gaming experience and sell that to audience. Front loaded design doesn't create connection for players to stick around and start testing their own limits, that going on four wheel slide in middle of Edinburgh can be manageable and fun and experience itself has it's own reward and things like that.

I don't believe customer championing a commercial product is necessarily a good idea, but some things in this game, some people made effort to make all that happen. It's a pity that it came out feeling like uneven experience, because of quite superficial things IMO, than what game actually has to offer.

Yeah, I wasn't expecting to like FH4 so I didn't bother buying the Ultimate edition. I think there are some useful DLC cars for MP in it, IIRC. For me the game isn't about collecting; but rather, to find a car in each class that I enjoy driving in MP. So I'm not as credits- or car- focused as some other players might be. That said, credits do seem to find their way to you when you're not paying too much attention to it! 😉

TBH, I'm not even sure how I'd advertise this product as it is because it's so many things. If you tell someone it's about racing, then somebody else will say otherwise. I think there are a lot of excellent ingredients for something great to come of it in maybe another two or three versions from now. At times it does sort of feel like a concept for something else down the road. However, it's easy to take for granted what's here-and-now because such technological achievements do seem to get quickly lost at the hands of the latest innovations. But as you say, a game has to be more than just that. I mean, there was time when something as simple as "Flappy Bird" was all the rage!
Rank: Racing Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#31 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2019 11:28:24 PM(UTC)
I'm new to the series - this is the first Forza game I've ever owned (and I've had it roughly a month), and the first racing game I've really enjoyed since Midnight Club 3: Dub Edition on the XBox.

I won't lie - it's been a frustrating experience, but that's entirely on me. I approached it like an arcade game initially - full throttle at all times, turning using walls and other cars, etc - and was utterly terrible. But then I took some time to actually learn the mechanics of the game, and although I'm still pretty terrible, I can see a significant improvement from when I started. Hell, I've even managed to win a fair few of the seasonal challenges here and there, which was something I didn't even consider a realistic possibility when I first got the game.

So yeah; I appreciate I'm coming at this from a newbie novice perspective, and I don't know all that much about cars so when the serious gearheads are talking ratios and tunes and whatnot, I have no clue what they're on about. Maybe for those folk, there's something lacking about the game - it's not realistic enough or whatever - but imo it's tremendous fun.

Sure, there are a few things that could be improved;

- the filtering in your garage, for instance, could use a bit of an overhaul given how many cars you can end up with. It'd be cool if you could trade cars, or sell them for Forzathon points, though, rather than just credits.

- The radio is a bit limited in terms of the number of songs (but I get around that by simply putting it off and having a playlist on YouTube or iTunes or whatever in the background) - it would be nice if you could have a station that plays songs from a folder on your PC with an occasional DJ segue, but it's hardly a deal-breaker.

- I'd love to be able to edit downloaded tunes and/or liveries. Even little things, like you download a cool looking livery, but you'd like to tweak a couple of the colours; it's a shame there's no option to do it. It's not about disrespecting the work of the player who originally made it, just adding that little bit of personalisation to a great design. I'd also like to be able to enter text for making liveries (for instance, if you want to write a name or multi-digit number, you have to do it one character at a time, which gets a bit tedious).

Overall though, I'm really glad I discovered the game (almost by accident, as it was free on the PC xbox gamepass thing and I thought "what the heck, I'll give it a go") and I've basically not played any other games since getting it.

So, if you see a Holden Sandman with an Ecto-1 livery spinning off the road, give me a wave as you shoot past. :D
Try my new blueprint race; "The Edinburgh Twist" - 736 688 266 - it's twisty, fiendish fun!
Rank: C-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#32 Posted : Friday, October 18, 2019 8:52:00 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
With FH4, to be frank about it, this time around standard edition users may have a better game experience overall without unnecessary clutter than Deluxe / Ultimate edition owners like me.

Fortune Island story is Drift Club 2.0 which is more of the same as in mainland, but I'm pretty sure PG will release additional business in coming updates so standard edition owners can finish "Story Superstar" star card.


FH4 is better game in some aspects that it's given credit but it fails to keep players engaged long enough for them to discover their thing in game. There were stories added later but they don't really bridge the gap. Lot's of things could be done with Playlist but... perhaps someone has a hammer and lives in a world full of nails.

It was designed to look pretty, have lot of first reaction appeal to gaming press to get good reviews, like any game, it's business. But it looks like somehow someone inside forgot that new physics, environments, seasons and cars make actually really good gaming experience and sell that to audience. Front loaded design doesn't create connection for players to stick around and start testing their own limits, that going on four wheel slide in middle of Edinburgh can be manageable and fun and experience itself has it's own reward and things like that.

I don't believe customer championing a commercial product is necessarily a good idea, but some things in this game, some people made effort to make all that happen. It's a pity that it came out feeling like uneven experience, because of quite superficial things IMO, than what game actually has to offer.

Yeah, I wasn't expecting to like FH4 so I didn't bother buying the Ultimate edition. I think there are some useful DLC cars for MP in it, IIRC. For me the game isn't about collecting; but rather, to find a car in each class that I enjoy driving in MP. So I'm not as credits- or car- focused as some other players might be. That said, credits do seem to find their way to you when you're not paying too much attention to it! 😉

TBH, I'm not even sure how I'd advertise this product as it is because it's so many things. If you tell someone it's about racing, then somebody else will say otherwise. I think there are a lot of excellent ingredients for something great to come of it in maybe another two or three versions from now. At times it does sort of feel like a concept for something else down the road. However, it's easy to take for granted what's here-and-now because such technological achievements do seem to get quickly lost at the hands of the latest innovations. But as you say, a game has to be more than just that. I mean, there was time when something as simple as "Flappy Bird" was all the rage!


It feels like there were microtransactions based things planned to game economy, but perhaps legal situation and PR side of things didn't support going towards that direction anymore. It's a sandbox game, but Route Creator was introduced after release, no custom bucket list challenges like in FH3, Horizon stories were introduced later. No way to create custom championships, because there weren't championships anymore. I didn't bought FH4 but months after it was released, but for what I have read about how it was in release, players became disillusioned because after initial rush to unlock events, get stuff, cars, houses etc. it started feeling like empty sandbox, and I get it. Players do stuff, some number goes up, but that doesn't feel like real progression, because there is very little of it. Sure unlocking clothes, horns whatever there is when player levels up in different event categories, but in the end it's also much about Wheelspins, about chance getting something worthwhile and I suppose lots of players started to feel like they were just spinning wheels instead of getting anywhere.

I'm not about to criticize someone sharing their good experience with the game but at the same time, what ever happened in Playground Games, it's their responsibility to engage people interested of their products. I'm torn myself. I mean some work they have done with cars in game is really excellent. Say '82 Porsche 911 Turbo, lots of people know spring suspension and leaf suspension, but how many know about torsion bar suspension? Porsche wasn't only manufacturer using it, but they used it on all points 'till late '80s. So there is more than having weight on rear axle that makes it feel like it does. I could point out many cars having distinct features that match actual history. And that's great! I mean really awesome, because that makes game work for me, something older guy like me can play.

But game doesn't encourage that sort of discovery, it encourages AWD swapping. No point blaming players for that. It's PG's job to connect players to what all sort of discoveries there are to be found in their game. Like you wrote in other topic, as it is this is great game and lot's of value for money, but perhaps most to the outliers.

Edited by user Friday, October 18, 2019 8:53:35 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#33 Posted : Friday, October 18, 2019 8:46:13 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
It feels like there were microtransactions based things planned to game economy, but perhaps legal situation and PR side of things didn't support going towards that direction anymore. It's a sandbox game, but Route Creator was introduced after release, no custom bucket list challenges like in FH3, Horizon stories were introduced later. No way to create custom championships, because there weren't championships anymore. I didn't bought FH4 but months after it was released, but for what I have read about how it was in release, players became disillusioned because after initial rush to unlock events, get stuff, cars, houses etc. it started feeling like empty sandbox, and I get it. Players do stuff, some number goes up, but that doesn't feel like real progression, because there is very little of it. Sure unlocking clothes, horns whatever there is when player levels up in different event categories, but in the end it's also much about Wheelspins, about chance getting something worthwhile and I suppose lots of players started to feel like they were just spinning wheels instead of getting anywhere.

Yes, I felt that way too. If I didn't figure out what I liked doing in the game itself, then I'd be rather annoyed with all the horns, emotes and clothes; because they aren't adding anything relevant to my enjoyment of the game. After setting up my character with an outfit that I've gotten used to seeing, I really have no desire to get more clothes now other than to improve my odds of winning vehicles from wheelspins. Also, I really only like one of the horns and two of the available emotes, all of which I have. So a lot of effort was put into those things and does sort of feel like a bit of wasted energy, because it's all rather 'meh' to me in light of the things that I do like about the game. Actually, I'd be interested to know if there are those out there that are really into the character dress-up and emotes, because I've really only seen a lukewarm reception to that.


Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
I'm not about to criticize someone sharing their good experience with the game but at the same time, what ever happened in Playground Games, it's their responsibility to engage people interested of their products. I'm torn myself. I mean some work they have done with cars in game is really excellent. Say '82 Porsche 911 Turbo, lots of people know spring suspension and leaf suspension, but how many know about torsion bar suspension? Porsche wasn't only manufacturer using it, but they used it on all points 'till late '80s. So there is more than having weight on rear axle that makes it feel like it does. I could point out many cars having distinct features that match actual history. And that's great! I mean really awesome, because that makes game work for me, something older guy like me can play.

But game doesn't encourage that sort of discovery, it encourages AWD swapping. No point blaming players for that. It's PG's job to connect players to what all sort of discoveries there are to be found in their game. Like you wrote in other topic, as it is this is great game and lot's of value for money, but perhaps most to the outliers.

That's one of the reasons why I like Motorsport, and really had to keep an open mind about Horizon. There's more depth to Motorsport because it teaches players about the history of the cars and tracks. There's something meaningful in that because it's based on reality, despite being a game. I think one of the most fascinating things about Motorsport was when I saw a video of a real driver on Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps. I ran that circuit many times before and got very familiar with things such as when I'd need to let up on the throttle to maintain control and what areas of the course were the most challenging for my car. I think what surprised me about seeing that IRL video was how similar the challenges were for a real driver in those same areas of the course that I found to be tricky, and how similar his approach was for dealing with them. That immediately made FM7 feel very rewarding to me as a game, and I think that might be why the OP could also be having some trouble warming up to the idea of Horizon after playing the Motorsport series.

Horizon really had an up-hill battle to try to get my attention because it's based in a fictional world. In Motorsport, I learned about real tracks like Nürburgring, Silverstone and Watkins Glen, for instance. Those circuits will still be around for FM8, FM9, and other reality-based racing titles; and well after those games are all retired. So FM7 wasn't just good preparation for FM8 and beyond, but a pretty useful tool for learning about the history of cars, races and tracks that can't be expressed through words alone. That, to me, is a valuable product that goes well beyond the gaming aspect of it. And that's another one of the reasons why I could never imagine Motorsport being merged with Horizon.

I think what Horizon brought to the table for me were the dynamically-changing environmental conditions, an unfamiliar landscape and traffic as an obstacle for street races. But if it were ever going to win me over, it still had to be about the racing. The difference for me between the two games is that Horizon races are more adrenaline-inducing because I never feel as though I could race the same race, in the same way and expect the exact same result each time. Whereas for Motorsport, there's a certain consistency to driving a particular course, and understanding that nothing unexpected would happen along the way so long as you stuck to the plan. I think that's the charm of Horizon and the reality of Motorsport: they're just different in the experience that they each present to the player. So maybe there's some truth to what Toyota was saying about Horizon? But then again, sometimes it's just fun to see what sort of crazy things you can do while driving in a chicken suit. 😉
Rank: B-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#34 Posted : Sunday, October 20, 2019 1:02:37 AM(UTC)
I wish there was a way to control the day/time cycle because it flips on and off way too quickly. Wouldn't be too much to ask to control the pace of the day/night cycle, would it?
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#35 Posted : Sunday, October 20, 2019 3:35:57 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
[quote=ClawedScroll554;1132430]With FH4, to be frank about it, this time around standard edition users may have a better game experience overall without unnecessary clutter than Deluxe / Ultimate edition owners like me.

Fortune Island story is Drift Club 2.0 which is more of the same as in mainland, but I'm pretty sure PG will release additional business in coming updates so standard edition owners can finish "Story Superstar" star card.


FH4 is better game in some aspects that it's given credit but it fails to keep players engaged long enough for them to discover their thing in game. There were stories added later but they don't really bridge the gap. Lot's of things could be done with Playlist but... perhaps someone has a hammer and lives in a world full of nails.

It was designed to look pretty, have lot of first reaction appeal to gaming press to get good reviews, like any game, it's business. But it looks like somehow someone inside forgot that new physics, environments, seasons and cars make actually really good gaming experience and sell that to audience. Front loaded design doesn't create connection for players to stick around and start testing their own limits, that going on four wheel slide in middle of Edinburgh can be manageable and fun and experience itself has it's own reward and things like that.

I don't believe customer championing a commercial product is necessarily a good idea, but some things in this game, some people made effort to make all that happen. It's a pity that it came out feeling like uneven experience, because of quite superficial things IMO, than what game actually has to offer.

Yeah, I wasn't expecting to like FH4 so I didn't bother buying the Ultimate edition. I think there are some useful DLC cars for MP in it, IIRC. For me the game isn't about collecting; but rather, to find a car in each class that I enjoy driving in MP. So I'm not as credits- or car- focused as some other players might be. That said, credits do seem to find their way to you when you're not paying too much attention to it! 😉

TBH, I'm not even sure how I'd advertise this product as it is because it's so many things. If you tell someone it's about racing, then somebody else will say otherwise. I think there are a lot of excellent ingredients for something great to come of it in maybe another two or three versions from now. At times it does sort of feel like a concept for something else down the road. However, it's easy to take for granted what's here-and-now because such technological achievements do seem to get quickly lost at the hands of the latest innovations. But as you say, a game has to be more than just that. I mean, there was time when something as simple as "Flappy Bird" was all the rage!


It feels like there were microtransactions based things planned to game economy, but perhaps legal situation and PR side of things didn't support going towards that direction anymore. It's a sandbox game, but Route Creator was introduced after release, no custom bucket list challenges like in FH3, Horizon stories were introduced later.quote]

That's all the stories are, bucket list events with PG trying to tie groups of them together with some terrible narrative that I'm an insurance investigator or a taxi driver, usually together with an awful and irritating character.

Mike from the Stunt Driver is probably the only one I wouldn't happily flatten with an Iron Knight, the rest are all poorly written with incredibly annoying voices, I don't think I've ever went 'ugh' at dialogue within a game as much as I have with Horizon 4.

Rank: R-Class Racing License
#36 Posted : Sunday, October 20, 2019 3:57:17 AM(UTC)
It's the only game I play on the XBox One, and I like to make the Liveries best. The game could be improved, but the main problem is all the bugs that nobody ever fixes or seems to care about.
Rank: Driver's License
#37 Posted : Sunday, October 20, 2019 6:04:11 AM(UTC)
- There are too few championships, just the seasonals.

- Is season playlist a hit, cause it says only 0,07 % completed all the events for a season ( Im in the EU region, maybe US do better.)

- I wish there were more events with modern supercars... However ... this week we got some with the Senna challenge, good more of that!

-
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#38 Posted : Sunday, October 20, 2019 5:40:54 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
It feels like there were microtransactions based things planned to game economy, but perhaps legal situation and PR side of things didn't support going towards that direction anymore. It's a sandbox game, but Route Creator was introduced after release, no custom bucket list challenges like in FH3, Horizon stories were introduced later. No way to create custom championships, because there weren't championships anymore. I didn't bought FH4 but months after it was released, but for what I have read about how it was in release, players became disillusioned because after initial rush to unlock events, get stuff, cars, houses etc. it started feeling like empty sandbox, and I get it. Players do stuff, some number goes up, but that doesn't feel like real progression, because there is very little of it. Sure unlocking clothes, horns whatever there is when player levels up in different event categories, but in the end it's also much about Wheelspins, about chance getting something worthwhile and I suppose lots of players started to feel like they were just spinning wheels instead of getting anywhere.

Yes, I felt that way too. If I didn't figure out what I liked doing in the game itself, then I'd be rather annoyed with all the horns, emotes and clothes; because they aren't adding anything relevant to my enjoyment of the game. After setting up my character with an outfit that I've gotten used to seeing, I really have no desire to get more clothes now other than to improve my odds of winning vehicles from wheelspins. Also, I really only like one of the horns and two of the available emotes, all of which I have. So a lot of effort was put into those things and does sort of feel like a bit of wasted energy, because it's all rather 'meh' to me in light of the things that I do like about the game. Actually, I'd be interested to know if there are those out there that are really into the character dress-up and emotes, because I've really only seen a lukewarm reception to that.

IMO whatever happened with their plans with game economy, in the end it became way too Wheelspin centric. Say if monthly Forzahon shop had more items available, that would allowed players alternative method to deplete Wheelspins from irrelevant junk, which had formed motivation to do Forzathon live! events, weekly playlist things etc.

Other possibility, what is really worthwhile? Time... Skill Points (for unlocking car perks) and Forzathon Points are the only meaningful currency in mid-term. Both require grinding to acquire. So there's no way to show in auction house if someone has grinded Skill Points to unlock all perks, and that's why it might be good idea to pay 100.000 cr for it in auction, even if car's not that uncommon. It's about time. To make it worse, there are perks that unlock other cars or huge credit reward, so it would be valuable information to show in auction house that this car has unlock other car or 300.000 credits perks unlocked and so paying x00.000 cr. for it might be a good deal.

In FH3 we could upgrade our Festival sites. We don't have mechanics exactly like that in FH4, which might unlock, not only cars but unnecessary junk, clothes! Gifts from happy sponsors. etc.

Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
I'm not about to criticize someone sharing their good experience with the game but at the same time, what ever happened in Playground Games, it's their responsibility to engage people interested of their products. I'm torn myself. I mean some work they have done with cars in game is really excellent. Say '82 Porsche 911 Turbo, lots of people know spring suspension and leaf suspension, but how many know about torsion bar suspension? Porsche wasn't only manufacturer using it, but they used it on all points 'till late '80s. So there is more than having weight on rear axle that makes it feel like it does. I could point out many cars having distinct features that match actual history. And that's great! I mean really awesome, because that makes game work for me, something older guy like me can play.

But game doesn't encourage that sort of discovery, it encourages AWD swapping. No point blaming players for that. It's PG's job to connect players to what all sort of discoveries there are to be found in their game. Like you wrote in other topic, as it is this is great game and lot's of value for money, but perhaps most to the outliers.


That's one of the reasons why I like Motorsport, and really had to keep an open mind about Horizon. There's more depth to Motorsport because it teaches players about the history of the cars and tracks. There's something meaningful in that because it's based on reality, despite being a game. I think one of the most fascinating things about Motorsport was when I saw a video of a real driver on Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps. I ran that circuit many times before and got very familiar with things such as when I'd need to let up on the throttle to maintain control and what areas of the course were the most challenging for my car. I think what surprised me about seeing that IRL video was how similar the challenges were for a real driver in those same areas of the course that I found to be tricky, and how similar his approach was for dealing with them. That immediately made FM7 feel very rewarding to me as a game, and I think that might be why the OP could also be having some trouble warming up to the idea of Horizon after playing the Motorsport series.


Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post

Horizon really had an up-hill battle to try to get my attention because it's based in a fictional world. In Motorsport, I learned about real tracks like Nürburgring, Silverstone and Watkins Glen, for instance. Those circuits will still be around for FM8, FM9, and other reality-based racing titles; and well after those games are all retired. So FM7 wasn't just good preparation for FM8 and beyond, but a pretty useful tool for learning about the history of cars, races and tracks that can't be expressed through words alone. That, to me, is a valuable product that goes well beyond the gaming aspect of it. And that's another one of the reasons why I could never imagine Motorsport being merged with Horizon.


I have had a thing for racing games for a long while. I think the first one I got really seriously was Geoff Crammond's Grand Prix 2. It's weird to think it now that I and countless of others were playing it on keyboard but that game really was something else back then. I also followed F1 and I sort of know what you mean, era where there were two drivers in the world who could make F1 do 4 wheel slide, which wasn't even supposed to be possible on that era F1 cars, yet maintained speed while doing so, Michael Schumacher and Mika Hakkinen. So few years passed, many games and there was Gran Turismo series (I had Motorsports 1 and X-Box for while for a one game! But went back to Gran Turismo) doing that final run on Nordschleife in Gran Turismo 4 and then there was a video, recording of boss of Polyphon Digital or something driving on real Nordschleife. Took years of playing to get there LOL. Yet I think my best gaming experiences after that on those classic circuits have been in Motorsports series, but not on FM7 but FM6 (which I got later). Homogulation isn't so aggressive on FM6 and I felt much more connected to vehicles and tracks. In FM7 I guess it might be possible to get there but practically I had most fun when doing rivals with old non homogulated stock Porsche 356.

There is no doubt lot of weight on history in FM series, but it all sort lost it's appeal in multiplayer. I have literally seen several cars flying at once in first turns ramming fests. Sometimes it was kids but to be honest, I heard too many times, despite not always understanding the language, adults sometimes obviously drunk, being aggressive towards anything that moved. One of my great Forza memories is winning in Long Beach though, never liked that circuit so it was sort of special.


[quote=seanbil;1132627]
I think what Horizon brought to the table for me were the dynamically-changing environmental conditions, an unfamiliar landscape and traffic as an obstacle for street races. But if it were ever going to win me over, it still had to be about the racing. The difference for me between the two games is that Horizon races are more adrenaline-inducing because I never feel as though I could race the same race, in the same way and expect the exact same result each time. Whereas for Motorsport, there's a certain consistency to driving a particular course, and understanding that nothing unexpected would happen along the way so long as you stuck to the plan. I think that's the charm of Horizon and the reality of Motorsport: they're just different in the experience that they each present to the player. So maybe there's some truth to what Toyota was saying about Horizon? But then again, sometimes it's just fun to see what sort of crazy things you can do while driving in a chicken suit. 😉


The Brains behind Horizon series got the idea from Music festivals and wanted to do something like that but with car culture. I haven't played FH1 but I have all the other games in series.

Horizon has been about that fantasy, about fun, escapism, certain expression to the point of surreal and adrenaline filled racing. FH4 is quite a bit different to previous ones. It's not on some sunny location, the whole festival angle has been muted. It doesn't give the same vibes than previous games in series. Yet is has no doubt the best physics, somewhere between FM6 and FM7 without weirdness of FM7. If you drive stock, cars feel much more like their historical counterparts and match what was printed by the press, than homogulated FM7 versions.

Fantasy can enable great things. Absurd stunts are fun just because they are so absurd, it was perhaps most obvious in FM2 but having race route through some small palaces backyard was really hilarious, or in FM4 imagining some farmers living in all peace and quiet going on with their daily routines, till someone put 10.000 XP board in their shed. 40 million visitors...

Roads are wide and in about perfect condition which allows players to see what their Hypercars are worth. Street scene events happen in all this weird universe, where it's normal that Drivatar or player cars crash with traffic, but keep going. That would be very difficult to get to work in more realistic setting. Chaos of Street scene is only scene in single player that give any hope to prepare for multiplayer, being that PvP racing or cooperative Trial on playlist. Well, CC is it's own thing.

So to create great fantasy, perhaps it takes to embrace reality and FH4 does that, but fails to utilise and sell what it really has under it's hood. Sometimes they get it right though. In the UK they didn't had races like Le Mans, Mille Miglia, Nurburing because of legislation didnt' allow that kind of racing. Most Race circuits were build after WW2 on abandoned airfields. Yet we had Classic Racers event featuring the Goliath, which matches actual racing history of mainland Europe where common roads were used. Fantasy makes re-creation of something like that possible in Horizon.

Edited by user Sunday, October 20, 2019 5:42:05 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#39 Posted : Sunday, October 20, 2019 5:43:09 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
It feels like there were microtransactions based things planned to game economy, but perhaps legal situation and PR side of things didn't support going towards that direction anymore. It's a sandbox game, but Route Creator was introduced after release, no custom bucket list challenges like in FH3, Horizon stories were introduced later. No way to create custom championships, because there weren't championships anymore. I didn't bought FH4 but months after it was released, but for what I have read about how it was in release, players became disillusioned because after initial rush to unlock events, get stuff, cars, houses etc. it started feeling like empty sandbox, and I get it. Players do stuff, some number goes up, but that doesn't feel like real progression, because there is very little of it. Sure unlocking clothes, horns whatever there is when player levels up in different event categories, but in the end it's also much about Wheelspins, about chance getting something worthwhile and I suppose lots of players started to feel like they were just spinning wheels instead of getting anywhere.

Yes, I felt that way too. If I didn't figure out what I liked doing in the game itself, then I'd be rather annoyed with all the horns, emotes and clothes; because they aren't adding anything relevant to my enjoyment of the game. After setting up my character with an outfit that I've gotten used to seeing, I really have no desire to get more clothes now other than to improve my odds of winning vehicles from wheelspins. Also, I really only like one of the horns and two of the available emotes, all of which I have. So a lot of effort was put into those things and does sort of feel like a bit of wasted energy, because it's all rather 'meh' to me in light of the things that I do like about the game. Actually, I'd be interested to know if there are those out there that are really into the character dress-up and emotes, because I've really only seen a lukewarm reception to that.

IMO whatever happened with their plans with game economy, in the end it became way too Wheelspin centric. Say if monthly Forzahon shop had more items available, that would allowed players alternative method to deplete Wheelspins from irrelevant junk, which had formed motivation to do Forzathon live! events, weekly playlist things etc.

Other possibility, what is really worthwhile? Time... Skill Points (for unlocking car perks) and Forzathon Points are the only meaningful currency in mid-term. Both require grinding to acquire. So there's no way to show in auction house if someone has grinded Skill Points to unlock all perks, and that's why it might be good idea to pay 100.000 cr for it in auction, even if car's not that uncommon. It's about time. To make it worse, there are perks that unlock other cars or huge credit reward, so it would be valuable information to show in auction house that this car has unlock other car or 300.000 credits perks unlocked and so paying x00.000 cr. for it might be a good deal.

In FH3 we could upgrade our Festival sites. We don't have mechanics exactly like that in FH4, which might unlock, not only cars but unnecessary junk, clothes! Gifts from happy sponsors. etc.

Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
I'm not about to criticize someone sharing their good experience with the game but at the same time, what ever happened in Playground Games, it's their responsibility to engage people interested of their products. I'm torn myself. I mean some work they have done with cars in game is really excellent. Say '82 Porsche 911 Turbo, lots of people know spring suspension and leaf suspension, but how many know about torsion bar suspension? Porsche wasn't only manufacturer using it, but they used it on all points 'till late '80s. So there is more than having weight on rear axle that makes it feel like it does. I could point out many cars having distinct features that match actual history. And that's great! I mean really awesome, because that makes game work for me, something older guy like me can play.

But game doesn't encourage that sort of discovery, it encourages AWD swapping. No point blaming players for that. It's PG's job to connect players to what all sort of discoveries there are to be found in their game. Like you wrote in other topic, as it is this is great game and lot's of value for money, but perhaps most to the outliers.


That's one of the reasons why I like Motorsport, and really had to keep an open mind about Horizon. There's more depth to Motorsport because it teaches players about the history of the cars and tracks. There's something meaningful in that because it's based on reality, despite being a game. I think one of the most fascinating things about Motorsport was when I saw a video of a real driver on Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps. I ran that circuit many times before and got very familiar with things such as when I'd need to let up on the throttle to maintain control and what areas of the course were the most challenging for my car. I think what surprised me about seeing that IRL video was how similar the challenges were for a real driver in those same areas of the course that I found to be tricky, and how similar his approach was for dealing with them. That immediately made FM7 feel very rewarding to me as a game, and I think that might be why the OP could also be having some trouble warming up to the idea of Horizon after playing the Motorsport series.



Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post

Horizon really had an up-hill battle to try to get my attention because it's based in a fictional world. In Motorsport, I learned about real tracks like Nürburgring, Silverstone and Watkins Glen, for instance. Those circuits will still be around for FM8, FM9, and other reality-based racing titles; and well after those games are all retired. So FM7 wasn't just good preparation for FM8 and beyond, but a pretty useful tool for learning about the history of cars, races and tracks that can't be expressed through words alone. That, to me, is a valuable product that goes well beyond the gaming aspect of it. And that's another one of the reasons why I could never imagine Motorsport being merged with Horizon.


I have had a thing for racing games for a long while. I think the first one I got really seriously was Geoff Crammond's Grand Prix 2. It's weird to think it now that I and countless of others were playing it on keyboard but that game really was something else back then. I also followed F1 and I sort of know what you mean, era where there were two drivers in the world who could make F1 do 4 wheel slide, which wasn't even supposed to be possible on that era F1 cars, yet maintained speed while doing so, Michael Schumacher and Mika Hakkinen. So few years passed, many games and there was Gran Turismo series (I had Motorsports 1 and X-Box for while for a one game! But went back to Gran Turismo) doing that final run on Nordschleife in Gran Turismo 4 and then there was a video, recording of boss of Polyphon Digital or something driving on real Nordschleife. Took years of playing to get there LOL. Yet I think my best gaming experiences after that on those classic circuits have been in Motorsports series, but not on FM7 but FM6 (which I got later). Homogulation isn't so aggressive on FM6 and I felt much more connected to vehicles and tracks. In FM7 I guess it might be possible to get there but practically I had most fun when doing rivals with old non homogulated stock Porsche 356.

There is no doubt lot of weight on history in FM series, but it all sort lost it's appeal in multiplayer. I have literally seen several cars flying at once in first turns ramming fests. Sometimes it was kids but to be honest, I heard too many times, despite not always understanding the language, adults sometimes obviously drunk, being aggressive towards anything that moved. One of my great Forza memories is winning in Long Beach though, never liked that circuit so it was sort of special.


Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post

I think what Horizon brought to the table for me were the dynamically-changing environmental conditions, an unfamiliar landscape and traffic as an obstacle for street races. But if it were ever going to win me over, it still had to be about the racing. The difference for me between the two games is that Horizon races are more adrenaline-inducing because I never feel as though I could race the same race, in the same way and expect the exact same result each time. Whereas for Motorsport, there's a certain consistency to driving a particular course, and understanding that nothing unexpected would happen along the way so long as you stuck to the plan. I think that's the charm of Horizon and the reality of Motorsport: they're just different in the experience that they each present to the player. So maybe there's some truth to what Toyota was saying about Horizon? But then again, sometimes it's just fun to see what sort of crazy things you can do while driving in a chicken suit. 😉


The Brains behind Horizon series got the idea from Music festivals and wanted to do something like that but with car culture. I haven't played FH1 but I have all the other games in series.

Horizon has been about that fantasy, about fun, escapism, certain expression to the point of surreal and adrenaline filled racing. FH4 is quite a bit different to previous ones. It's not on some sunny location, the whole festival angle has been muted. It doesn't give the same vibes than previous games in series. Yet is has no doubt the best physics, somewhere between FM6 and FM7 without weirdness of FM7. If you drive stock, cars feel much more like their historical counterparts and match what was printed by the press, than homogulated FM7 versions.

Fantasy can enable great things. Absurd stunts are fun just because they are so absurd, it was perhaps most obvious in FM2 but having race route through some small palaces backyard was really hilarious, or in FM4 imagining some farmers living in all peace and quiet going on with their daily routines, till someone put 10.000 XP board in their shed. 40 million visitors...

Roads are wide and in about perfect condition which allows players to see what their Hypercars are worth. Street scene events happen in all this weird universe, where it's normal that Drivatar or player cars crash with traffic, but keep going. That would be very difficult to get to work in more realistic setting. Chaos of Street scene is only scene in single player that give any hope to prepare for multiplayer, being that PvP racing or cooperative Trial on playlist. Well, CC is it's own thing.

So to create great fantasy, perhaps it takes to embrace reality and FH4 does that, but fails to utilise and sell what it really has under it's hood. Sometimes they get it right though. In the UK they didn't had races like Le Mans, Mille Miglia, Nurburing because of legislation didnt' allow that kind of racing. Most Race circuits were build after WW2 on abandoned airfields. Yet we had Classic Racers event featuring the Goliath, which matches actual racing history of mainland Europe where common roads were used. Fantasy makes re-creation of something like that possible in Horizon.

Edited by user Sunday, October 20, 2019 5:44:27 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#40 Posted : Sunday, October 20, 2019 9:33:40 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
. . . what is really worthwhile? Time... Skill Points (for unlocking car perks) and Forzathon Points are the only meaningful currency in mid-term. Both require grinding to acquire. So there's no way to show in auction house if someone has grinded Skill Points to unlock all perks, and that's why it might be good idea to pay 100.000 cr for it in auction, even if car's not that uncommon. It's about time. To make it worse, there are perks that unlock other cars or huge credit reward, so it would be valuable information to show in auction house that this car has unlock other car or 300.000 credits perks unlocked and so paying x00.000 cr. for it might be a good deal.

In FH3 we could upgrade our Festival sites. We don't have mechanics exactly like that in FH4, which might unlock, not only cars but unnecessary junk, clothes! Gifts from happy sponsors. etc.

I remember reading a post a few days ago where someone mentioned flipping the Apollo for a ridiculous (at least for me) number of credits. I actually thought that was a clever idea because I currently have enough FPs in my account to get at least 10 of them. However, it took me only 15 seconds to think it over and realize that doing so would've completely ruined the game for me. I really don't care if others do it, but for me, it would've taken all meaning away from that Apollo Trial I did last May, as well as taken meaning away from all the cars and upgrades I was able to afford through racing. I think that's one of the things that really fascinates me about this game, because there is a big part of it that apparently doesn't interest me enough to want to go there, and that racing is plenty enough for me. Maybe I'm just playing this game wrong? Who knows? lol


Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
I have had a thing for racing games for a long while. I think the first one I got really seriously was Geoff Crammond's Grand Prix 2. It's weird to think it now that I and countless of others were playing it on keyboard but that game really was something else back then. I also followed F1 and I sort of know what you mean, era where there were two drivers in the world who could make F1 do 4 wheel slide, which wasn't even supposed to be possible on that era F1 cars, yet maintained speed while doing so, Michael Schumacher and Mika Hakkinen. So few years passed, many games and there was Gran Turismo series (I had Motorsports 1 and X-Box for while for a one game! But went back to Gran Turismo) doing that final run on Nordschleife in Gran Turismo 4 and then there was a video, recording of boss of Polyphon Digital or something driving on real Nordschleife. Took years of playing to get there LOL. Yet I think my best gaming experiences after that on those classic circuits have been in Motorsports series, but not on FM7 but FM6 (which I got later). Homogulation isn't so aggressive on FM6 and I felt much more connected to vehicles and tracks. In FM7 I guess it might be possible to get there but practically I had most fun when doing rivals with old non homogulated stock Porsche 356.

There is no doubt lot of weight on history in FM series, but it all sort lost it's appeal in multiplayer. I have literally seen several cars flying at once in first turns ramming fests. Sometimes it was kids but to be honest, I heard too many times, despite not always understanding the language, adults sometimes obviously drunk, being aggressive towards anything that moved. One of my great Forza memories is winning in Long Beach though, never liked that circuit so it was sort of special.

It's interesting to hear a lot of people say that FM7 took a step back. When I get some time to do so (and free up some space on my Xbox), I really want to see for myself what the difference is between FM6 and FM7. But the connection between car and track is something that has bothered me about FM7, because something just doesn't feel right about it. So I guess I might have an idea of what people are talking about.

I've also heard a lot of people mention the toxicity of FM7 MP. The strange thing is that I've played it several months ago and the players there were very professional with their driving. I only encountered one person who made an effort to attack people, but other than that it's a surprise to me that so many people have had a much different experience with it. Maybe it's because FM7 stopped doing content updates and those "problematic" players finally went onto something else? Anyway, I will have to take responsibility for one incident where I caused a chain-reaction pileup at the start of a race. For some reason I thought my car would "ghost" through those ahead of me like in FH4. So I just floored it. 😑 That was a pretty embarrassing mistake. 😳


Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
The Brains behind Horizon series got the idea from Music festivals and wanted to do something like that but with car culture. I haven't played FH1 but I have all the other games in series.

Horizon has been about that fantasy, about fun, escapism, certain expression to the point of surreal and adrenaline filled racing. FH4 is quite a bit different to previous ones. It's not on some sunny location, the whole festival angle has been muted. It doesn't give the same vibes than previous games in series. Yet is has no doubt the best physics, somewhere between FM6 and FM7 without weirdness of FM7. If you drive stock, cars feel much more like their historical counterparts and match what was printed by the press, than homogulated FM7 versions.

Fantasy can enable great things. Absurd stunts are fun just because they are so absurd, it was perhaps most obvious in FM2 but having race route through some small palaces backyard was really hilarious, or in FM4 imagining some farmers living in all peace and quiet going on with their daily routines, till someone put 10.000 XP board in their shed. 40 million visitors...

Roads are wide and in about perfect condition which allows players to see what their Hypercars are worth. Street scene events happen in all this weird universe, where it's normal that Drivatar or player cars crash with traffic, but keep going. That would be very difficult to get to work in more realistic setting. Chaos of Street scene is only scene in single player that give any hope to prepare for multiplayer, being that PvP racing or cooperative Trial on playlist. Well, CC is it's own thing.

So to create great fantasy, perhaps it takes to embrace reality and FH4 does that, but fails to utilise and sell what it really has under it's hood. Sometimes they get it right though. In the UK they didn't had races like Le Mans, Mille Miglia, Nurburing because of legislation didnt' allow that kind of racing. Most Race circuits were build after WW2 on abandoned airfields. Yet we had Classic Racers event featuring the Goliath, which matches actual racing history of mainland Europe where common roads were used. Fantasy makes re-creation of something like that possible in Horizon.

Yep, the overall experience of being able to race on roadways is what really makes the game for me. In the beginning I was really struggling with the idea of learning about Horizon's fictional map in comparison to something real like in Motorsport. I mean, it felt like nonsense at the time to learn about turns that have no basis in reality. However, the driving experience kept winning me over in FH4. Eventually it became rewarding enough for me to learn about the subtle quirks that each road had at race speeds that just weren't there when casually driving over them. It's just one of those minor elements to the game that gives it a lot of character for me.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#41 Posted : Sunday, October 20, 2019 9:59:47 PM(UTC)
@seanbill:

"It's interesting to hear a lot of people say that FM7 took a step back. When I get some time to do so (and free up some space on my Xbox), I really want to see for myself what the difference is between FM6 and FM7. But the connection between car and track is something that has bothered me about FM7, because something just doesn't feel right about it. So I guess I might have an idea of what people are talking about."

Spend an hour each - driving the same stock/upgraded cars on the same track in both games (make sure same tune) and see how arcade-like the physics are in FM6. Now, FM still has a long way to go in terms of introducing more nuanced and believable physics, but it is a dramatic improvement from FM6.

Also, have you tried to drift around or do some high-speed precision driving IRL in a really high-powered car? I think the base physics representation or modeling in FM7 is nice although there is room for improvement.

For a really great experience though - in a game anyway - you should try PCARS2.
Rank: Racing Permit
#42 Posted : Sunday, October 20, 2019 11:34:30 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post

Other possibility, what is really worthwhile? Time... Skill Points (for unlocking car perks) and Forzathon Points are the only meaningful currency in mid-term. Both require grinding to acquire. So there's no way to show in auction house if someone has grinded Skill Points to unlock all perks, and that's why it might be good idea to pay 100.000 cr for it in auction, even if car's not that uncommon. It's about time. To make it worse, there are perks that unlock other cars or huge credit reward, so it would be valuable information to show in auction house that this car has unlock other car or 300.000 credits perks unlocked and so paying x00.000 cr. for it might be a good deal.



My only real issue with the in-game "currency" is that Forzathon Points can only really be obtained one way - the hourly Live events. Yes, you can get a small amount with the weekly challenge completion, but not enough to really make a difference.

But ultimately the FL aspect is frustrating - not because of the mechanics of it (it's quite fun, and I have developed a genuine love for the way everyone parks up alongside one another while we wait), but because of the timing. Once an hour, on the hour, feels too infrequent and too fixed. For those who have lots of time to spare, I'm sure it's awesome, but the older I get, the less time I have to game, and I love the pick-up-and-play element of Forza, but if I want to save up for something in the shop it's nigh-on impossible for me to fit around my life most of the time. There's nothing more frustrating than either waiting for the hour mark and then having my online game drop out (and the FL be gone by the time it finds another session), or - as has happened on a few occasions - being the only person taking part in one, failing as a result, and then having to wait another hour for the next go.

Any of the following could be a suggestion for potential improvement:

- Have some FP available in wheelspins. Varying amounts - from 30 to 300, say.
- Allow cars (maybe only those that are rare?) to be sold in the AH for FP as well as CR. The buyer still has to have sufficient, of course; so you couldn't buy a 300FP auction car with 1,000,000CR, for instance.
- Stagger the times of Forzathon Live. Either make it completely random (but still once an hour) or have multiple per hour (maybe every 15 minutes). If you want to limit players' accumulation of points, maybe make it that they can only enter a maximum of two per hour?

I want to be constructive about this, so it doesn't just come across as me going "WAH! It's so unfair!!" hence the suggestions above. I just envy all those who can devote more time to this than I can. ;)
Try my new blueprint race; "The Edinburgh Twist" - 736 688 266 - it's twisty, fiendish fun!
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#43 Posted : Monday, October 21, 2019 5:28:43 AM(UTC)
Really the only thing I don't like about it is the sound. I'm quite the audiophile and I've surrounded myself with equipment that provides ultimate immersion that this game just simply cannot take advantage of. Below is a picture of what I have to do in order to get any weight out of most cars in this game. This pic is from my gaming pc / audio workstation. I have to do something similar on my x1x rig too.

[img=https://gyazo.com/7be6842627f9f7ffda923324b7a5b684]Crazy silly EQ Band-Aid for FH4 and FH3.[/img]
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#44 Posted : Monday, October 21, 2019 11:59:12 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post

It's interesting to hear a lot of people say that FM7 took a step back. When I get some time to do so (and free up some space on my Xbox), I really want to see for myself what the difference is between FM6 and FM7. But the connection between car and track is something that has bothered me about FM7, because something just doesn't feel right about it. So I guess I might have an idea of what people are talking about.

I've also heard a lot of people mention the toxicity of FM7 MP. The strange thing is that I've played it several months ago and the players there were very professional with their driving. I only encountered one person who made an effort to attack people, but other than that it's a surprise to me that so many people have had a much different experience with it. Maybe it's because FM7 stopped doing content updates and those "problematic" players finally went onto something else? Anyway, I will have to take responsibility for one incident where I caused a chain-reaction pileup at the start of a race. For some reason I thought my car would "ghost" through those ahead of me like in FH4. So I just floored it. 😑 That was a pretty embarrassing mistake. 😳

It's great news if leagues are better now. Stuff still happens though, this was posted on Forza Reddit a while ago: My Multiplayer experience summed in 30 seconds.

I don't really know current state of MP in FM7, I did encounter couple of ramming fests and one dedicated rammer while doing some races in leagues for old times sake, but I have experienced worse. I don't know, there were also players whom you could tell that game was really big thing for them. Hope it's better environment now.

Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
The Brains behind Horizon series got the idea from Music festivals and wanted to do something like that but with car culture. I haven't played FH1 but I have all the other games in series.

Horizon has been about that fantasy, about fun, escapism, certain expression to the point of surreal and adrenaline filled racing. FH4 is quite a bit different to previous ones. It's not on some sunny location, the whole festival angle has been muted. It doesn't give the same vibes than previous games in series. Yet is has no doubt the best physics, somewhere between FM6 and FM7 without weirdness of FM7. If you drive stock, cars feel much more like their historical counterparts and match what was printed by the press, than homogulated FM7 versions.

Fantasy can enable great things. Absurd stunts are fun just because they are so absurd, it was perhaps most obvious in FM2 but having race route through some small palaces backyard was really hilarious, or in FM4 imagining some farmers living in all peace and quiet going on with their daily routines, till someone put 10.000 XP board in their shed. 40 million visitors...

Roads are wide and in about perfect condition which allows players to see what their Hypercars are worth. Street scene events happen in all this weird universe, where it's normal that Drivatar or player cars crash with traffic, but keep going. That would be very difficult to get to work in more realistic setting. Chaos of Street scene is only scene in single player that give any hope to prepare for multiplayer, being that PvP racing or cooperative Trial on playlist. Well, CC is it's own thing.

So to create great fantasy, perhaps it takes to embrace reality and FH4 does that, but fails to utilise and sell what it really has under it's hood. Sometimes they get it right though. In the UK they didn't had races like Le Mans, Mille Miglia, Nurburing because of legislation didnt' allow that kind of racing. Most Race circuits were build after WW2 on abandoned airfields. Yet we had Classic Racers event featuring the Goliath, which matches actual racing history of mainland Europe where common roads were used. Fantasy makes re-creation of something like that possible in Horizon.

Yep, the overall experience of being able to race on roadways is what really makes the game for me. In the beginning I was really struggling with the idea of learning about Horizon's fictional map in comparison to something real like in Motorsport. I mean, it felt like nonsense at the time to learn about turns that have no basis in reality. However, the driving experience kept winning me over in FH4. Eventually it became rewarding enough for me to learn about the subtle quirks that each road had at race speeds that just weren't there when casually driving over them. It's just one of those minor elements to the game that gives it a lot of character for me.

It's like they have ton of things they could do and sometimes we see them getting it right, like "The Pink Pig" Trial (which was the event). Main audience for Horizon is kids and young adults I guess. History can be fun, it doesn't need bombastic music, narrators, which are fine in FM7 context.

I don't know I just watched Forza Monthly but one of the upcoming Trials is Classic Racers event, Porsche vs. Ferrari vs. Ford and if you know about racing history, Porsche had mission to win Le Mans, they must win Ferrari they thought, and they did but overall winner was Ford with their GT! There is another story there, head of Ford not understanding how Enzo Ferrari thought at all and getting **** ed at him after Enzo got upset after he learned that Ford wanted Ferrari Scuderia (the racing division) as well in the deal and didn't agree to anything. If they get route selection right this might be awesome event.

Originally Posted by: JayTredecim Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post

Other possibility, what is really worthwhile? Time... Skill Points (for unlocking car perks) and Forzathon Points are the only meaningful currency in mid-term. Both require grinding to acquire. So there's no way to show in auction house if someone has grinded Skill Points to unlock all perks, and that's why it might be good idea to pay 100.000 cr for it in auction, even if car's not that uncommon. It's about time. To make it worse, there are perks that unlock other cars or huge credit reward, so it would be valuable information to show in auction house that this car has unlock other car or 300.000 credits perks unlocked and so paying x00.000 cr. for it might be a good deal.



My only real issue with the in-game "currency" is that Forzathon Points can only really be obtained one way - the hourly Live events. Yes, you can get a small amount with the weekly challenge completion, but not enough to really make a difference.

But ultimately the FL aspect is frustrating - not because of the mechanics of it (it's quite fun, and I have developed a genuine love for the way everyone parks up alongside one another while we wait), but because of the timing. Once an hour, on the hour, feels too infrequent and too fixed. For those who have lots of time to spare, I'm sure it's awesome, but the older I get, the less time I have to game, and I love the pick-up-and-play element of Forza, but if I want to save up for something in the shop it's nigh-on impossible for me to fit around my life most of the time. There's nothing more frustrating than either waiting for the hour mark and then having my online game drop out (and the FL be gone by the time it finds another session), or - as has happened on a few occasions - being the only person taking part in one, failing as a result, and then having to wait another hour for the next go.

Any of the following could be a suggestion for potential improvement:

- Have some FP available in wheelspins. Varying amounts - from 30 to 300, say.
- Allow cars (maybe only those that are rare?) to be sold in the AH for FP as well as CR. The buyer still has to have sufficient, of course; so you couldn't buy a 300FP auction car with 1,000,000CR, for instance.
- Stagger the times of Forzathon Live. Either make it completely random (but still once an hour) or have multiple per hour (maybe every 15 minutes). If you want to limit players' accumulation of points, maybe make it that they can only enter a maximum of two per hour?

I want to be constructive about this, so it doesn't just come across as me going "WAH! It's so unfair!!" hence the suggestions above. I just envy all those who can devote more time to this than I can. ;)


I'm lucky in sense that I don't recall there being but one car I really wanted from Forzathon shop, don't recall what it was anymore though. I usually go with D- and C-class vehicles and I ended getting lots of cars from playlist events, so over time points just cumulated. I can see it can be frustrating for players with limited time budget who are interested about some store exclusives.

There is a workaround to unlock money perks, play auction house feature, takes time but in the end, what car you can't buy with 20 million from auction house?
Rank: D-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#45 Posted : Monday, October 21, 2019 9:30:26 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Spend an hour each - driving the same stock/upgraded cars on the same track in both games (make sure same tune) and see how arcade-like the physics are in FM6. Now, FM still has a long way to go in terms of introducing more nuanced and believable physics, but it is a dramatic improvement from FM6.

Also, have you tried to drift around or do some high-speed precision driving IRL in a really high-powered car? I think the base physics representation or modeling in FM7 is nice although there is room for improvement.

For a really great experience though - in a game anyway - you should try PCARS2.

Sounds like good advice. I'll definitely try to compare them apples-to-apples where possible. However, I suspect that I might prefer FM6 if arcade-like physics is somehow related to better controller (gamepad) play. I know that there's a lot of demand for Motorsport to move in the direction of SIM, but with a lot of SIM racing titles out there, I wonder how important that is for T10. I've seen some people online who have spent a lot of money on expensive wheel and pedal sets to maximize their in-game immersion. As a console player I don't necessarily expect a racing game to replicate a SIM experience from the point of controller use; so I have a reasonable expectation that some arcade physics will seep-in as a consequence of that.

I do wonder how much of one's perception of FM7's game physics is influenced by a wheel set. Are you primarily using a wheel or a controller? If you're primarily using a wheel, then do you still find FM7 better than FH4 when using a controller? I mean, it could just be that FH4's tire physics is exaggerated; but something like that might be necessary to the point of being able to race with any amount of competency on a controller. An example would be the difficulty of controlling high-torque RWD cars, and why many rely on AWD swaps to be able to race competitively. If RWD physics in Forza is meant to be an accurate representation of car response in the real world, then it's that sort of scenario that I think a game like Forza should employ "arcade" physics where necessary, for better playability.


Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
It's great news if leagues are better now. Stuff still happens though, this was posted on Forza Reddit a while ago: My Multiplayer experience summed in 30 seconds.

I don't really know current state of MP in FM7, I did encounter couple of ramming fests and one dedicated rammer while doing some races in leagues for old times sake, but I have experienced worse. I don't know, there were also players whom you could tell that game was really big thing for them. Hope it's better environment now.

Wow, I personally haven't seen anything like that in FM7. That's pretty crazy. I think I heard that FM7 now has appointed "race marshals" (basically moderators) that can boot/ban people from lobbies for aggressive driving. I haven't been in FM7 MP since the summer so maybe it's changed back to its old ways. That'd be a shame if it did.


Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
It's like they have ton of things they could do and sometimes we see them getting it right, like "The Pink Pig" Trial (which was the event). Main audience for Horizon is kids and young adults I guess. History can be fun, it doesn't need bombastic music, narrators, which are fine in FM7 context.

I don't know I just watched Forza Monthly but one of the upcoming Trials is Classic Racers event, Porsche vs. Ferrari vs. Ford and if you know about racing history, Porsche had mission to win Le Mans, they must win Ferrari they thought, and they did but overall winner was Ford with their GT! There is another story there, head of Ford not understanding how Enzo Ferrari thought at all and getting **** ed at him after Enzo got upset after he learned that Ford wanted Ferrari Scuderia (the racing division) as well in the deal and didn't agree to anything. If they get route selection right this might be awesome event.

"The Grand Tour" covered the Enzo Ferrari story really well in one of their episodes. If anyone is interested in seeing it, someone posted a clip of it on Youtube at: The Grand Tour. Anyway, I really like the "manufacturer rivals" theme that PG chose for Series 15. I know that for one of the Trials I'm already picking the Porsche Spyder because I remember the nightmare I had with the LaFerrari during the Apollo I.E. Trial. Again, it goes back to the issue of RWD physics as something that isn't being well-represented in Forza. Coincidentally, one of the recommended videos after that Youtube video was one about a guy whose friend let him borrow a LaFerrari. (The LaFerrari video is available at: An Average Joe Driving a LaFerrari). And why am I not surprised that an average person can drive a LaFerrari without difficulty in real life? So it really isn't about having to learn how to adapt to the RWD physics of Forza, but for Forza to adapt to the RWD physics of the real world. I guess you can add that thought as my contribution to the, "Why I Don't Like FH4".

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#46 Posted: : Tuesday, October 22, 2019 12:28:15 AM(UTC)
@Seanbil:

"Sounds like good advice. I'll definitely try to compare them apples-to-apples where possible. However, I suspect that I might prefer FM6 if arcade-like physics is somehow related to better controller (gamepad) play. I know that there's a lot of demand for Motorsport to move in the direction of SIM, but with a lot of SIM racing titles out there, I wonder how important that is for T10. I've seen some people online who have spent a lot of money on expensive wheel and pedal sets to maximize their in-game immersion. As a console player I don't necessarily expect a racing game to replicate a SIM experience from the point of controller use; so I have a reasonable expectation that some arcade physics will seep-in as a consequence of that.

I do wonder how much of one's perception of FM7's game physics is influenced by a wheel set. Are you primarily using a wheel or a controller? If you're primarily using a wheel, then do you still find FM7 better than FH4 when using a controller? I mean, it could just be that FH4's tire physics is exaggerated; but something like that might be necessary to the point of being able to race with any amount of competency on a controller. An example would be the difficulty of controlling high-torque RWD cars, and why many rely on AWD swaps to be able to race competitively. If RWD physics in Forza is meant to be an accurate representation of car response in the real world, then it's that sort of scenario that I think a game like Forza should employ "arcade" physics where necessary, for better playability."


I have always played the game on a controller with 0/100 deadzones and SIM steering toggled on, no assists. While a gaming wheel does add a more nuanced depth to the whole experience, IMHO, the controller alone and its implementation of course, is more than enough to gauge a game's physics. And with T10's excellent pad implementation, I find FM7 to be the most realistic, compared to FM6 and FH4. The latter is actually very basic and arcade for my tastes, although decent enough open road driving physics I suppose.

I believe you enjoy the more straightforward approach to controller handling in a racing game and that's totally okay. For me personally, FM6 feels way too much like an "on rails/rollercoaster ride" with hardly any input required to recover from slides - your car pretty much has a life of its own. In FM7, you are at least required to take many, many aspects into account and adjust your throttle, braking, steering, weight transfer, etc. accordingly. It really is a fantastic and consistent 'base physics' model and I hope they will lean more toward sim/real life like physics in future FM games.

Edited by user Tuesday, October 22, 2019 12:28:46 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#47 Posted : Tuesday, October 22, 2019 11:30:26 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post

"The Grand Tour" covered the Enzo Ferrari story really well in one of their episodes. If anyone is interested in seeing it, someone posted a clip of it on Youtube at: The Grand Tour. Anyway, I really like the "manufacturer rivals" theme that PG chose for Series 15. I know that for one of the Trials I'm already picking the Porsche Spyder because I remember the nightmare I had with the LaFerrari during the Apollo I.E. Trial. Again, it goes back to the issue of RWD physics as something that isn't being well-represented in Forza. Coincidentally, one of the recommended videos after that Youtube video was one about a guy whose friend let him borrow a LaFerrari. (The LaFerrari video is available at: An Average Joe Driving a LaFerrari). And why am I not surprised that an average person can drive a LaFerrari without difficulty in real life? So it really isn't about having to learn how to adapt to the RWD physics of Forza, but for Forza to adapt to the RWD physics of the real world. I guess you can add that thought as my contribution to the, "Why I Don't Like FH4".

Thanks for the links! I used to just read stuff. Definitely going to watch these!

Rank: B-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#48 Posted : Tuesday, October 22, 2019 10:16:47 PM(UTC)
Reminds me - I need to catch up on the grand tour. Haven't seen anything past season 1, episode 4 - and even that I completed halfway.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#49 Posted : Wednesday, October 23, 2019 8:09:32 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DalekSek78 Go to Quoted Post
I love the horizon series ever since the first one. I've been playing forza since FM3. My biggest issues with horizon 4 though are that the cars don't sound as unique as they used to, some of the cars that once had good body mods don't anymore, and that it doesn't feel like a true festival anymore. This is sad because I loved the games but none of them capture what the first one did... Or rather still does.

Dear Turn10 and Playground Games please make the cars sound unique again, sadly it's why I stopped playing the game.

I see this mentioned a lot and I always wondered what the big fuss was all about. It wasn't until I got the McLaren 600LT that I realized how much easier it was to drive than other cars because the engine audio closely matches the full range of the tachometer. Typically when I upgrade a car I just slap on a racing V12 (if available) without thinking too much about it. The problem with doing that to an unfamiliar car is that the engine audio for the racing V12 just sounds "fast" along the entire RPM range, IMO. So there were many cases where I'd make inefficient gear changes during technical portions of a course simply because I wasn't hearing the engine right.

The McLaren 600LT is currently my overall favorite car in the game because it's so intuitive for me to drive based on the way it sounds. Even though it's not the most competitive car in its class, it's just more enjoyable to drive because of how the engine audio is representing its relative performance. I ran into a similar case with the Lamborghini Reventón where I decided against the racing V12 engine swap just because the stock engine audio sounded very good to me. I essentially decided to sacrifice some car performance for a better in-game experience. So I get where people are coming from with regard to this matter. If the uniqueness of car audio has decreased since the first Horizon, for the same cross-section of cars, then it makes me wonder if iPG were originally licensing the engine audio clips from a 3rd party. If so, then I'm guessing that the sheer number of cars in FH4 makes it quite unpractical from a financial standpoint for PG to track them all down in the real world and to put them on a dynamometer. :/


Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Reminds me - I need to catch up on the grand tour. Haven't seen anything past season 1, episode 4 - and even that I completed halfway.

Albeit some of their best work was on "Top Gear", "The Grand Tour" is still very entertaining even though they couldn't bring the Stig with them. If you have Amazon Prime Video, another good series is "The Gymkhana Files" with Ken Block. It gives a nice backstory to some of the Hoonigan cars that we see in the game.


Rank: B-Class Racing License
#50 Posted : Thursday, October 24, 2019 1:37:19 AM(UTC)
"If so, then I'm guessing that the sheer number of cars in FH4 makes it quite unpractical from a financial standpoint for PG to track them all down in the real world and to put them on a dynamometer. :/"

You'd be surprised how practical and easy it is to listen/watch some car reviews online, along with footage of high speed flybys, onboard footage, POV footage, etc. all that - and then using high-end gear, reproduce the sound in the game. they just do not care about this aspect of the game anymore.

Look, the difference between number of cars between FH2, FH3 and especially FH4 isn't particularly huge. Yet in the previous two games, they seemed to give extra care and attention to how the cars sounded, and they nailed them almost too well (minus the few missteps in FH3).

It's a lazy and indifferent attitude they have - and I think this is the new work culture at first-party studios.
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