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Rank: C-Class Racing License
#26 Posted : Sunday, October 6, 2019 10:24:26 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Grenambo Go to Quoted Post
i noticed the AI in this game is cheating a long time ago... they just NEVER drift their grip on the road is like railways tracks


They sure do lose their grip in certain scenarios. See Drivatars fishtailing all the time, especially when road is wet. The fastest of the bunch don't appear always to do that though.



Tested vehicles VS Unbeatable:

D-Class

Sample: D-Class RWD coupes, Stock only, no tuning, D 209 - D 460, Street Racing only
Testing method: Playing against Unbeatable Drivatars on every Street Race in game (21).

Results

Season: Summer

'70 Datsun 150 stock (D 209)
'79 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 (D 460)


Summary: Peel vehicles are break balance on D 209 and probably lower PI. Details here.
On higher PI vehicles every race was winnable against every Drivatar lineup that appeared during races.

Conclusion: Sample size too small to make general conclusions about upper D-class. '79 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 is safe to use though.

Important! Determine PI threshold where Peel vehicles stop appearing in Drivatar lineup.

D-Class Addendum

Season: Spring

'59 Cadillac Eldorado stock (D 400) *
'69 Volkswagen Class 5/1600 Baja Bug (D 407) **

* Peel vehicles appeared in 7 races out of 21. From 7 races they appeared, 5 were winnable and 2 were lost to Peel vehicles. '59 can beat them on routes which favours it's relatively good top speed.
** No Peel vehicles appeared during this run. Car not competitive in stock configuration in Street Scene on Unbeatable in general.



C-Class

Sample: C-Class RWD coupes, Stock only, no tuning, C-505 to C-600. Street Racing only
Testing method: Playing against Unbeatable Drivatars on every Street Race in game (21).

Results

Season: Summer

'87 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am GTA (C 505)
'69 Ferrari Dino 246 GT stock

Season: Autumn

'73 Ford XB Falcon
'87 Nissan GTS-R
'69 Dodge Charger
'62 Ferrari 250 GT Berlinetta Lusso
'91 BMW M3 *
'94 Nissan Silvia K's (C 600) **

* Interesting thing happened on Otleydale Dash. There was Drivatar Lancia Delta starting from the first row, which appeared to get way far ahead of rest the rest. It was clocking 3:06.478 while my times tended to be in 3:09's. So there is advantage of starting from the first row which can be 2-3 seconds but that's on every route. I kept trying and finally won the race but only because something weird happened to leading Lancia Delta and Buick Regal from second position took the lead. I was able to pass Lancia Delta and later overtake Buick Regal and won with time 3:09.557. However I was never able to beat Delta's best times around 3:06s with stock BMW.

I was curious how this happened and started to look for common element and found something. Again front row Drivatars starting downhill. Picture here. and on higher difficulties player starting position is in uphill section. Picture here.

** No lower B-class vehicles appeared in any race. This is different to Road Racing where when getting near upper limit of class, Drivatars with lower end of higher class starts to appear (for example if player vehicles is C-600 lower B-Class vehicles appear in race line up).

Bit outside of testing, Nissan Silvia K's is Street Racing personified. It's has great handling, speed and it can recover from drifts very well, which is important in the chaos of Street Racing. Keeping car planted is the fastest method, until it's not. After I finally get to use this car, I can only say, one of my best Horizon moments ever, going through all the scene races while listening to music via Spotify. Absolutely fantastic car.

Edited by user Friday, February 7, 2020 10:34:57 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#27 Posted : Wednesday, October 9, 2019 2:02:37 PM(UTC)
Started testing B-class vs. Unbeatable Drivatars in Street Races.

Sample: B-Class RWD coupes, Stock only, no tuning, B-605 to B-xxx. Street Racing only
Testing method: Playing against Unbeatable Drivatars on every Street Race in game (21).

B-Class

Season: Autumn

'70 Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1 (B 605) *

* Managed to finish this with less than hour autumn left. I won every event with this car and I took lots of screencaps of ending results. Rubber band appears to be strong here for players favour as there are only very few B-class car which appears in lineups about in the same PI. Further analysis to follow.

Season: Winter

'03 Honda S2000 (B 618) [Car Pass] **
'73 Porsche 911 Carrera RS (B 631)
'00 Nissan Silvia Spec-R (B 643) ***
'05 Lotus Elise 111S (B 650)
'89 Porsche 944 Turbo (B 659)
'04 Nissan Fairlady Z (B 671)
'62 Ferrari 250 GTO (B 679)
'82 Porsche 911 Turbo (B 688)
'97 BMW M3 (B 694) ****
! -'65 Shelby Cobra 427 S/C (B 700) or '68 Dodge Dart HEMI Super Stock (B 626) on next Winter - !

** It's interesting how different cars are and how Drivatar AI adapts for player car selection. I did the Marathon with 'Vette clocking 9:19.726 and IIRC it wasn't perfect run. Drivatar becoming second was '16 Abarth 695 (B 607) clocking 9:23.614. However despite '03 Honda S2000 being only 13 points of PI above 'Vette I did Marathon with time 9:08.849, it was pretty clean run, but still, over 10 seconds better than with 'Vette. Drivatar finishing second was '87 Ford Sierra Cosworth RS500 (B 611) with time of 9:17.849. This same '87 Sierra was also on Marathon lineup in stock configuration (B 608) and clocked 9:28.886. Rubber band here works really hard for players favour, even on Unbeatable.

'03 Honda S2000 feels like it's pretty close to being track car despite being sports car. In fact, like certain Nissan in C-class being like the definition of Street Scene, '03 S2000 is definition of modern sports car. It's probably very good choice regardless of season and weather for anyone wanting to learn to race with RWD.


*** One oddity happened during this run. Drivatar Can-AM Maverick (B 692) appeared on Rail Yard Express and clocked times only top B Class Rivals players could answer with their Trak-Tor. Can-Am Maverick stock PI is B 692

On my first try Can-Am clocked 2:38.801 vs my 2:46.742. On second try I gave it everything I had, just for the sake of it clocking 2:45.942 vs Drivatar Maverick clocking 2:38.134. I gave one more try to it just to observe Drivatar Maverick which paid off. I made mistakes and finished with time 2:47.985 vs Maverick 2:28.566! Thing shaved about 10 seconds from it previous times, which were unreachable with stock Silvia to begin with!

I later returned to Rail Yard Express after finishing Street Races in Edinburgh. I was feeling quite lazy and won without much effort with time 2:49.044. Drivatar taking second position with '12 Vauxhall Astra (B 684) clocking 2:55.985.

When I started new run on Street scene with '05 Lotus Elise 111S (B 650) I encountered Drivatar using Can-AM Maverick (B 692) again on Otleydale Dash and won with time 3:02.107 vs Maverick 3:02.306. It was tight race, but with Lotus Elise 111S they tend to be because of car characteristics. Next I encountered Glenfinnan Chase. Nothing strange happened, there Maverick was starting some of the three last rows and finished 5th. So nothing unusual with Maverick on those two races.

Lotus is really fine car, struggles a bit on routes with long uphill sections but in other hand has really good maneuverability and has very original feel to it. Quite different to Honda S2000 but I really liked Lotus anyway.

While doing Street scene run with Porsche 944, Can-AM Maverick (B 692) appeared twice in Drivatar lineup. First in Holyrood Run, where it finished 8th and then in North Coast Rush, where it finished second, race was quite tight, as I messed up some of the last bends but nothing broken with Maverick there.

On Street scene runs with '03 Nissan Fairlady Z, Can-AM Maverick (B 692) was in Drivatar lineup on Wind Farm Rush and Glenfinnan Chace. It finished on second position on both races. I didn't noticed from which row it started. I do wonder if super speed Can-AM Maverick issue trigger might be when it starts from the first row, but so far I haven't encountered a race where I could be sure that has happened (one occasion perhaps being it's super fast time on Rail Yard Express against my '00 Nissan Silvia Spec-R (B 643).

During my '62 Ferrari 250 GTO (B 679) run, Maverick didn't appear in any race.

Encountered Can-AM Maverick (B 692) on Holyrood Run against my '82 Porsche 911 Turbo. Unfortunately I didn't paid attention from which row it started but it came second in race. My time with Porsche was 2:42.155 Maverick finishing right behind me 2:42.689. I made mistakes on that run though, so nothing broken. It appears though, that Maverick often tends to get top to top positions.

It's interesting though. There was a lot of talk months ago Maverick being broken, and it was. Here however we have different results from different routes versus Maverick, with the same PI of B 692. Only once it having achieving time which is unattainable for human player with selected vehicle. I don't know how the game works but could it be something about Rubber Band not working properly on some routes instead of car / drivatars in general being broken?

**** Hit the jackpot with Can-AM Maverick (B 692) while doing my run with '97 BMW M3

On North Coast Rush I had Maverick starting from first row. I was only able to win that race by luck as there is one traffic pattern where Maverick collides with traffic car in Y-crossroad near Bamburgh castle. I kept retrying vs. same Drivatar lineup to gather data.

Finishing times for 1st, 2nd and 3rd positions on nine attempts

---------------------North Coast Rush----------------------------

1st. Drivatar - - - - - - Can-AM Maverick (B 692) 3:03.025
2nd.ClawedScroll554 - BMW M3 '97 - - - (B 694) 3:10.299
3rd. Drivatar - - - - - - Vaux Astra '12 - - -(B 693) 3:15.288

1st. ClawedScroll554 - BMW M3 '97 - - - (B 694) 3:08.298
2nd.Drivatar - - - - - - Can-AM Maverick (B 692) 3:08.640 <- Drivatar crashed to traffic car in Y-crossroad.
3rd. Drivatar - - - - - - Vaux Astra '12 - - -(B 693) 3:11.460

1st. Drivatar - - - - - - Can-AM Maverick (B 692) 3:03.734
2nd.ClawedScroll554 - BMW M3 '97 - - - (B 694) 3:08.806
3rd. Drivatar - - - - - - Vaux Astra '12 - - -(B 693) 3:12.777

1st. Drivatar - - - - - - Can-AM Maverick (B 692) 3:04.944
2nd.ClawedScroll554 - BMW M3 '97 - - - (B 694) 3:11.050
3rd. Drivatar - - - - - - Vaux Astra '12 - - -(B 693) 3:13.670

1st. Drivatar - - - - - - Can-AM Maverick (B 692) 3:01.649 !
2nd.ClawedScroll554 - BMW M3 '97 - - - (B 694) 3:07.188
3rd. Drivatar - - - - - - Ford Mustang '00 -(B 687) 3:18.133

1st. Drivatar - - - - - - Can-AM Maverick (B 692) 3:02.766
2nd.ClawedScroll554 - BMW M3 '97 - - - (B 694) 3:06.587
3rd. Drivatar - - - - - - Vaux Astra '12 - - -(B 693) 3:10.541

1st. Drivatar - - - - - - Can-AM Maverick (B 692) 3:02.249
2nd.ClawedScroll554 - BMW M3 '97 - - - (B 694) 3:03.984 <- no idea how I was able to achieve that!
3rd. Drivatar - - - - - - AM DB4 GT - - - - (B 692) 3:13.712

1st. Drivatar - - - - - - Can-AM Maverick (B 692) 3:02.983
2nd.ClawedScroll554 - BMW M3 '97 - - - (B 694) 3:06.787
3rd. Drivatar - - - - - - Vaux Astra '12 - - -(B 693) 3:11.810

1st. ClawedScroll554 - BMW M3 '97 - - - (B 694) 3:07.438
2nd.Drivatar - - - - - - Can-AM Maverick (B 692) 3:11.309 <- Drivatar crashed to traffic car in Y-crossroad.
3rd. Drivatar - - - - - - AM DB4 GT - - - - (B 692) 3:15.213


Drivatar car appearing in 3rd position also show up in starting grid as follows:
1. Can-AM Maverick
2. Vaux Astra '12
3. AM DB4 GT
4. Ford Mustang '00

------- Comparison to North Coast Rush Rivals times -------

For comparison I did couple of runs on North Coast Rush B-class Rivals.

I was running out of time and did only couple of runs with stock '07 BMW M3, but my time at writing this (oct. 16th.) 3:06.320 is within top 20 times in the world and in top 10%. The time threshold needed to achieve time needed to win over Can-Am Maverick in this scenario is currently held by player whom time is 3:01.715 with Chevelle '70 (B 700) at 11th. position on Rivals leaderboard.

Conclusion: In this scenario winning the race without relying to traffic pattern that causes Can-AM Maverick to crash demands time only to ~6% of the world can achieve. Demand is unreasonable and this should be investigated as a bug.


Thoughts / analysis

- Can-AM Maverick has been winnable by normal means on every race except two during my test runs in B-class (10 cars tested on 21 routes = 210 wins, about 250 races with retries).
- Scenario where Maverick finishes in time unreachable by player by normal mean may have something to do with 1. Maverick starting from the first row in starting grid 2. and getting enough distance to player on some parts of route, that it can pass through soft obstacles unhindered, similarly to Cross Country events.
- Nine car out of ten were tested during winter, Maverick appears to come with snow tyres stock, which may give it additional edge in winter scenario. Does it have Rally / Off-road tyres as stock option during other seasons? Which would lead it to have huge grip advantage.
- It's extremely maneuverable and have very good acceleration when controlled by Drivatar, allowing it to easily pass among other Drivatars / player cars.

Possible solution might be some sort of hack preventing Maverick from starting from first, perhaps even from second row of starting grid.

Other notes:

Can-Am Maverick stock PI is B 692 and in stock configuration top speed should be 118.8 mph. However on my runs on Coastal Charge it appeared that I needed to reach about 140 mph to start gaining on Maverick.




Drivatar fishtailing and else

I haven't seen Drivatar fishtailing anywhere as much as in C-class and low B-class further I have went up in B-class. I do wonder if it may be because of winter or if it's because of something else. I see Drivatars making errors, crashing to traffic cars, having minor collisions with each other, but fishtailing appeared to becoming quite rare somewhere about B 650 IIRC.



Note for Future S1: Lotus Elise GT1 stock is strong contender for a car that might be able to beat Drivatars on every Street Scene event.

Edited by user Wednesday, October 16, 2019 2:51:36 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#28 Posted : Wednesday, October 9, 2019 2:29:10 PM(UTC)
Like was said... I can't remember ever seeing an AI car drift.
Rank: Racing Permit
#29 Posted : Tuesday, October 15, 2019 5:45:05 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: AquaPainter168 Go to Quoted Post
Like was said... I can't remember ever seeing an AI car drift.


me too.. never seen it
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#30 Posted : Tuesday, October 15, 2019 10:59:58 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Grenambo Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: AquaPainter168 Go to Quoted Post
Like was said... I can't remember ever seeing an AI car drift.


me too.. never seen it


They can recover (or sometimes not) from fishtails but that's about it what I have seen so far.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#31 Posted : Friday, October 18, 2019 10:33:09 AM(UTC)
Started testing A-class vs. Unbeatable Drivatars in Street Races.

Sample: A-Class RWD coupes, Stock only, no tuning, A-706 to A-800. Street Racing only
Testing method: Playing against Unbeatable Drivatars on every Street Race in game (21).

A-Class

Season: Spring

'05 BMW M3 (A 706)
'93 Porsche 968 Turbo S (A 716) * [Car Pass]
'10 Maserati Gran Turismo S (A 727)
'16 Cadillac ATS-V (A 737) **
'01 TVR Tuscan S (A 747) ***
'15 Infiniti Q60 Concept (A 757) ****


Series 15 | 10/23 content update

Season: Summer

'12 Mercedes-Benz SLK 55 AMG (A 766)
‘15 Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat (A 776)
‘97 Lamborghini Diablo SV (A 787)
'14 BMW M4 Coupé (A 800)

Initial impression from A-class is that Drivatar AWD - vs player 2WD might be a bit more of a factor here than on lower classes. When racing on routes where there are uphill section with bends it's better to catch Drivatars with AWD vehicles before they get there.

* Otleydale Dash, multiple retries vs. Drivatar same Drivatar lineup. Best Drivatar with Audi RS 5 (A 750) 2:51.146 - 2:53.265 first position. Lost all races my best being 2:53.148 but Drivatar time was 2:51.146. Audi RS 5 started from the first row. It rains which adds to starting disadvantage on that route.

Second effort on Otleydale Dash vs different Drivatar lineup. Multiple efforts but kept losing to Bentley Bentayga (A 758). Bentley clocked times between 2:50.021 - 2.51.263. vs my best 2:52.448.
Won the race when Bentayga hit traffic or had other issue and finished 3rd, but I wasn't able to beat best times set by Drivatars on this route.
Bentley Bentayga started from the first row. It rains which adds to starting disadvantage on that route.

Encountered anomaly when I continued my Street Scene run trough with Porsche 968. Lost to Drivatars on about easiest Street Race there is, Edinburgh West End. Kept re-trying. I was clocking 2:38.417 - 2:38.575. Winning Drivatar was clocking times 2:37.108 - 2:35.772 with '09 BMW M5 (A 758). Noticed two weird things. First, there wasn't any traffic cars, not even on retries. Secondly, I wasn't able to catch up Drivatar BMW M5 even on Motorway segment, even going with full acceleration and drafting.
I gave this race up and went to do North Coast Rush, won on second try but no traffic cars on either race! Then went back to do Edinburgh West End, won without much of effort against different Drivatar lineup with quite poor time 2:41.111. No traffic. Went to do Coastal Charge, won on second try, again no traffic on either run. I had saved the Marathon for last and decided to take a break and see if connecting to session would help with no traffic issue. It did. Won the Marathon on second try.

I rarely need to retry races unless something weird happens, or impossible situation, which are part of Street Scene, like Drivatars and traffic cars colliding and blocking entire road. Those things can occur, though rarely. Yet, it's interesting to see how Porsche 968 compares to other A-class cars in my Street scene run through. It's not very good under rainy conditions, but I suspect there's also something else with it. Braking line might be a bit off with it, which might mean that it's human player may find it quite challenging to use all of its PI potential, or that it's PI is too high for actual performance.

// Obsolete / Meanwhile it's quite good choice for those who look for more challenges in game. //
Use '01 TVR Tuscan S instead.

** No issues with Cadillac until I encountered "No Traffic Cars" issue on Coastal Charge.
There was Drivatar Lamborghini Diablo SV (A 787) starting from the first row clocking really fast times from 2:02.323 - 2:01.998 vs my Cadillac 2:05.067 - 2:04.116. I kept retrying against the same Drivatar lineup and while I was able to win one round it was because of huge strokes of luck and colliding with Diablo SV in 90 degree turn to right after high speed section causing Diablo to finish third with time 2:07.371, so not really comparable time.

Went to do Marathon which I finished without issues and went back to redo Coastal Charge. This time I waited till game connected to Forza servers before entering in race. Traffic appeared this time around and Drivatars weren't clocking times anywhere as fast as Lamborghini Diablo in my previous attempt without traffic. Won with time 2:10.047 against Drivatar '18 Honda Civic (A 745) finishing in 2:12.047.

Conclusion: Experience with Cadillac when AI traffic didn't appear in race was exactly the same as with when I encountered with Porsche 968 on Edinburgh West End. Depending from Drivatar lineup and Drivatar car starting positions, non-traffic races may break Drivatar AI in a way which result unwinnable scenario for human player.


*** Encountered three races where winning leading Drivatar depended of Drivatar crashing with traffic. In all cases Drivatar had AWD car and started on first row of starting grid. All races were on wet road, though no rain.

Ambleside Ascent: Drivatar '13 Audi RS 4 (A 750) clocking 2:36.849 - 2:37.191. My best time with TVR Tuscan was 2:39.201. Won the event with time 2:40.052 on attempt where Drivatar Audi crashed into oncoming traffic car.

Edinburgh New Town: Drivatar '13 Audi RS 4 (A 750) clocking 2:17.730 - 2:18.889. My best time with was 2:18.698 however winning turned out to be a matter of dumb luck. Won when Drivatar Audi crashed into oncoming traffic car or with other Drivatar race car. My time on that attempt was 2:21.074.

Coastal Charge: Drivatar Audi TTS (A 741) clocking 2:02.865 - 2:02.048. My best times were between 2:06.752 - 2:07.120. Managed to win the event on attempt where there was huge crash with Drivatar and traffic car in the beginning of highest speed section of route, leading to other Drivatars crashing too among them Drivatar Audi TTS. Won with time 2:08.321 Drivatar Audi TTS finishing 9th. with time 2:18.682.

Retries vs different Drivatar lineup:
First try: Edinburgh New Town won with in 2:25.526 vs Drivatar becoming second clocking 2:25.824 (Porsche Panamera A 789)
First try: Coastal Charge won with time 2:07.394 vs Drivatar becoming second clocking 2:08.196 (Jeep Wrangler DD A 796)

Thoughts: Unlike with Porsche 968 I didn't notice anything suspicious with TVR Tuscan. There are benefits in early and interval braking when coming on high speed to 90 degree bend, but braking like didn't seemed to be off. It's much more predictable and stable than Porsche 968, even though tail happy but that comes with car design.

I'm not sure what to think of results. A bit more grip here and there would have resulted wins on Ambleside Ascent and Edinburgh New Town, yet achieving times like that on Unbeatable, passing all the Drivatar cars first while avoiding traffic, requires really good runs which might be very difficult to do constantly. Coastal Charge runs vs Audi TTS were case where I strongly suspect Audi's times were unachievable for human player. It's narrow time bracket in results 2:02.865 - 2:02.048 against my times where I was seconds behind may indicate that I didn't even get close enough to really push it enough to get full rubber band effect to manifest.


**** What a great car! One odd race in Ambleside Ascent versus Drivatar '11 BMW Z4 sDrive35is (A 755, stock is A 727) where I was able to win the race after numerous retries, but wasn't able to beat BMW's top time. It's best time was 2:35.865 vs my best 2:36.106. I attribute lot of my difficulties to wet road and Infiniti's tendency to spin wheels at start. On my winning run I was able to do lot's of catchup despite losing two positions at start and was able to overtake BMW in first hairpin to right in section where is Ambleside Approach Speed Zone.

Not the first time I have difficulties winning this on Unbeatable. In A-class at least general rule is, that unless I'm able to pass leading Drivatar(s) at Ambleside Approach Speed Zone section or in mid section of where S-Bends Drift Zone is, I will lose, unless Drivatar crashes into traffic.

I'm curious about '11 BMW Z4 sDrive35is's PI. It's 27 points above stock and I wonder what sort of upgrades it could have. AWD Swap perhaps? It has very good launch stat even stock. Launch 8.2 according to Forza Wiki.


'12 Mercedes-Benz SLK 55 AMG (A 766) turned out to be really great car for Street scene, on summer at least.

‘15 Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat is great summer car racing on wet routes isn’t its strongest suit. It likes going uphill though.

'14 BMW M4 Coupe turned out to be another great experience. It handles like a race car.

Important! Determine PI threshold in lower D-class where Peel vehicles stop appearing in Drivatar lineup.

Note for Future S1: Lotus Elise GT1 stock is strong contender for a car that might be able to beat Drivatars on every Street Scene event.

Edited by user Wednesday, October 30, 2019 11:37:05 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#32 Posted : Tuesday, October 29, 2019 6:59:18 AM(UTC)
Decided to give the Apollo IE a run last night... What a NIGHTMARE! Rammed constantly by LEGO cars. I DID win, but it took entirely too much effort. Fighting the ramming, rubber-banding, turbo boosts, mega-grip, you name it. I saw it all in that race.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#33 Posted : Tuesday, October 29, 2019 10:27:44 PM(UTC)
Ok. NOW I'm fairly certain that the 2019 GT3 RS is broken. I decided to upgrade some of the cars I get put against when I choose the 2019 GT3 RS to the levels I saw them upgraded to (905 - 910). The Project 7 I upgraded to 910 will EASILY stomp the stock 2019 GT3 RS into the ground. Someone messed up with this car cos I can barely get it to over 200mph on the Goliath yet this Project 7 I upgraded will do every bit of that and then some. A bone stock GT3 RS PI is 915. I'm pretty sure that's either too high, or the car just isn't programmed right. Something is definitely a miss cos I can easily beat Unbeatable Drivatars with a stock 2018 GT2 RS and its PI is 910. I will definitely be putting in a ticket for this issue. Something isn't right.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#34 Posted : Wednesday, October 30, 2019 11:35:58 AM(UTC)
Started testing S1-class vs. Unbeatable Drivatars in Street Races.

Sample: S1-Class RWD coupes, Stock only, no tuning, S1-802 to S1-xxx. Street Racing only
Testing method: Playing against Unbeatable Drivatars on every Street Race in game (21).

S1-Class

Season: Summer

'12 Aston Martin Vanquish (S1 802) *

* Winning the Monument Wynds was quite a challenge. This time not against one but two Drivatar cars. Fastest in numerous attempts was Drivatar Lamborghini Gallardo (S1 833) clocking between 2:22.409 - 2:21.250. Second positions went to Hoonigan Ford Fiesta (S1 828) clocking with times between 2:22.860 - 2:21.850.

I beat Drivatars finally when there were lot's of collisions between Drivatar and traffic cars with time 2:23.577 against Drivatar Hoonigan Fiesta clocking 2:24.212 Drivatar Lambo Callardo finishing in 2:28.032. It's important to note though that my finish time was still slower of what Drivatars could do when they weren't hindered by traffic. Alas, I only won because of dump luck.

Silliest thing on Monument Wynds runs was that I never felt that car wasn't able to do it. It's more about route, traffic and other things influencing human factor. That said, even though times around 2:21.xx would be possible, it's another question to be able to make that sort of runs constantly with stock Aston Martin I used. Too bad I forgot to screencap Drivatar starting positions, but I would bet that Lambo and Hoonigan were starting from the first row.

There was one anomaly on my test run. There were no traffic at all on Coastal Charge. Won the event on first try, but I wonder why that happened. This time I saw co-op and Rivals icons lit and unlocked so traffic cars not appearing couldn't be because of I wasn't connected to Horizon Life.

In general Aston Martin Vanquish turned out to be really great experience in Street Scene. There's something it shares with BMW M4, line between sports car and race car becoming blurred. I didn't had problems winning with it except for Monument Wynds, biggest annoyance during my test run being LEGO-Mini which appeared quite a few times among Drivatar lineup sticking out like sore thumb.


Season: Autumn

'93 Jaguar XJ220 (S1 811)
'97 Lotus Elise GT1 (S1 815) [Track Toy] **
'11 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG (S1 822) ***
'13 Dodge SRT Viper GTS (S1 831) ****
'16 BMW M4 GTS (S1 841) [Track Toy] * mw *

Jaguar XJ220 turned out to be really fine car. Hadn’t much trouble with at all winning events but on Ambleside Ascent and Highland Charge, latter where I was able to win after re-tries with time 2:15.036, it still fell short of 2:14.677 clocked by Drivatar Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder (S1 814) in one of the re-tries. Main contenders were Gallardo Spyder and Caterham R500, which started from first row.

Had to rerun Marathon which is very rare and even on second try it was really tight my 7:45.207 with Jag vs. Drivatar Ferrari GTC4L (S1 840) taking second place in 7:45.451. I made some slow exits on that run though.

** Lotus GT1 is a race car which I like a lot but racing with it also turned out to be very uneven experience during my test run.

While Lotus did great on most of the routes, I was not able to beat fastest Drivatar time with it on Ambleside Ascent. My best time there was 2:25.871 and won with that but best Drivatar time was 2:25.212 with ‘17 Nissan GT-R (S1 836). On Glenfinnan Chace I had to retry, finished second with 2:14.843 vs Drivatar Morgan Aero GT (S1 811) taking first position with time 1:14.777. I took the wrong line in final straight and hit the drivatar. :-P However I was not able to beat that time on my second run winning the race with time 2:15.377.

Real trouble started at Highland Charge where I got stuck for retrying for a long time. Drivatar with Audi R8 V10 plus (S1 856) finishing in times between 2:14.510 – 2:12.041. My best time was 2:12.191 but I finally won the event after some Drivatars crashed to something ahead of me and had pretty clean run with time 2:12.925.

Did all the races except Monument Wynds without incidents but Monument Wynds turned out to be another real challenge where I got stuck for a long time. Main opponents were Ford RS200 (S1 839) and ‘14 Porsche 911 Turbo. I kept finishing third Ford RS200 clocking between 2:21.692 – 2:21.600 Porsche 911 clocking even faster time at one event, 2:21.358. My times with Lotus GT1 were between 2:23.769 – 2:23.060. I was able to win with my fastest time but only because Drivatars had a crash with traffic. Perfomance with Lotus was poor compared to Drivatar times and I can’t pin down where (excluding normal Street scene chaos) I lost so much time, except right at start.

I won remaining events without much effort, but there’s very important thing regarding times. I felt I was sometimes faster and sometimes slower with Lotus GT1 than with Jaguar XJ220 despite Lotus Higher PI and after studying screencaps I took it turned out to be so.

| - -Times :::: ‘93 Jaguar XJ220 | ‘97 Lotus GT1
AmbsideAs: 2:30.375 - - - - - - - - 2:25.871 (!)
Marathon - : 7:45.207 - - - - - - - - 7:45.967
Monumt W: 2:21.208 - - - - - - - - 2:23.060
Highland C: 2:15.036 - - - - - - - - 2:12.191
Edin NewT: 2:10.306 - - - - - - - - 2:12.433

It’s interesting relating to Drivatars. If I sometimes must upgrade a car to handle demands of Weekly Challenge or simply change to higher PI car, what I see first is that as my vehicle PI goes up, Drivatars also get faster. On current playlist when I changed my vehicle from Ferrari F12tdf (S2 901) to McLaren 720S Spider (S2 914) Drivatar cars stayed the same, but suddenly got about two seconds faster.

With Lotus in campaign races, it looks like sometimes Drivatar time target or whatever they have is influenced by Lotus higher PI and sometimes not. Some of times I posted are likely due random nature of Street Scene and simply human factor, but I believe there might be something in time data of Ambleside and Monument Wynds.


*** '11 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG (S1 822) Good car, though feels tad heavy, yet it's another sort of unique vehicle in game. Had no problems winning with it, had to retry Otleydale Dash couple of times it but few things occurred.

Ambleside Ascent turned out to be quite a challenge again. There was Drivatar Lamborghini Reventon (S1 841) starting from first row clocking times between 2:25.746 - 2:27.514. Finally managed to beat it when Drivatars had to slow down because of traffic car in section which is the same as Ambleside Approach Speed Zone where I could take advantage of situation and overtake. Forgot to screencap my winning time, but they were typically in 2:.27.xxx area and I don't think I was any faster than usual on last section of route.

Derwent Valley Dash is one of my favourites and I was quite surprised to had to retry it few times as I was unable to beat Drivatar Caterham R500 (S1 820). It clocked the route in between 2:20.658 - 2:22.718. my best times being between 2:24.211 - 2:22.635. While I managed to win the race when I caught Caterham in last section in race, I practically side swiped it to hold my racing line. I was never able to beat it's top times in 2:20's. Caterham was starting from the pole.

After that everything went well, even Highland Charge but in Monument Wynds I ended in real trouble. There were Acura NSX (S1 850), Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder (S1 817) starting from the first row and KTM X-Bow GT4 (S1 861) in second row. I was only able to beat KTM X-Bow somewhat consistently on my numerous retries. Drivatar Lambo Gallardo Spyder was mostly consistent winner clocking times between 2:18.556 - 2:20.983. It wasn't however fastest, Drivatar Acura NSX when it got to first in race managed to finish in 2:18.364 and was constantly getting close to identical times with Lambo. My best time was 2:20.432 but my times usually were in 2:21.xxx's. After grinding that race for hour or so I came into conclusion that traffic pattern that would mess up leading Drivatars wouldn't happen and gave up against that Drivatar lineup.

After finishing North Coast Rush and Coastal Charge I went to try Monument Wynds again. I won on first try against different Drivatar lineup. My time was 2:22.526, so not that fast, but as Drivatar finishing in second position with Ferrari Cali T (S1 821) clocked 2:24.529, it wasn't even tight. I wonder though if this time something happened during race to bottleneck Drivatars. Finished this Street Scene race through on Marathon, winning it with pretty good margin.

It's interesting how some cars work on Monument Wynds and some don't. Starting location on Unbeatable is clear disadvantage, but other factor is that higher PI doesn't always result better performance. While my best time there was 2:20.432 that was only once I manged to finish in time sub 2:21. From previous races, my time with ‘93 Jaguar XJ220 (S1 811) 2:21.208 was perhaps on better half of what I managed with '11 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG (S1 822) in constant runs.

**** '13 Dodge SRT Viper GTS (S1 831) not much issues with this but on Ambleside Ascent, to my surprise Windfarm Rush and especially at Monument Wynds. Won Ambleside Ascent on sixth try, there was Drivatar Lamborghini Aventador J (S1 871) giving lot of trouble, when I finally managed to pass it in curves where Ambleside Approach Speed Zone is.

Windfarm Rush had again Lamborghini Aventador J starting from first row clocking the race between 2:27.147 - 2:27.606. Finally won when it slipped into ditch when I got close while chasing it, but my finishing time was still poor in comparison, 2:33.279. My best time was 2:29.008.

No issues after that until Monument Wynds where I ended up against ‘14 Porsche 911 Turbo (S1 830) starting from pole. Porsche finished quite consistently between 2:14.668 - 2:15.986 whenever I got clean enough run to get anywhere near it. Whenever I got bad start or otherwise terrible race it could finish in 2:17’s. Best time I could do with Viper was 2.19.256 but I managed to win on my eight try, after Porsche collided or had to slow down because of traffic with time 2:21.200, Porsche right behind me in 2:21.333.

I don’t know what to think. Viper isn’t a bad car. It’s demanding, has a learning curve but it can be amazing in corners, a bit unpredictable at high speeds, but while I finished three races left for this test run, I felt I still didn’t knew how to utilise its full potential. On Monument Wynds it had besides that great cornering ability, also advantage of being able to cut corners over sidewalks (stock '11 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG couldn’t do that) and my times were more consistent than with MB-SLS, I was only 0.5 to about 1 seconds faster. Leading Drivatar was however 3-5 seconds faster than on my race with M-B SLS. That’s heck of a penalty for 9 PI of Viper over M-B SLS.

* mw * '16 BMW M4 GTS (S1 841) turned out to be really fantastic car. Had some really great races with this, winning Edinburgh Stockbridge despite having bad start especially. Only time I needed to grind retries happened on Monument Wynds. This time Driviatar lineup even from first row was '15 Corvette (S1 871) and Lambo Murcielago (S1 840). They didn't pull magical times compared to mine. Lambo was consistently bit faster than Corvette faster clocking times between 2:18.147 - 2:18.847. My best time with BMW was 2:19.656. However I won when something happened to leading Drivatars with time 2:21.450 against Drivatar Bugatti EB110 finishing in 2:21.727.

BMW had issues with sidewalks Viper didn't which may explain why I couldn't beat best time I did with Viper (2.19.256) with BMW. What comes to certain pattern which seems pretty clear with Monument Wynds on higher class cars, I leave that analysis for later.


Season: Winter

'98 Porsche 911 GT1 Strassenversion (S1 850)
'10 Ferrari 599 GTO (S1 861)

Porsche and Ferrari turned out to be quite different and after finishing test runs on both I studied what tyres they have stock. Porsche appears to have Street tyres while Ferrari has Sport tyres.

Difference between tyres means a lot, at least during winter. I needed ~89 races to complete all 21 Street Scene races in game with Porsche (didn't managed to win Monument Wynds even with 10 tries) while with Ferrari it took only 23 races. To win Monument Wynds on first try was really big surprise with Ferrari, even I was getting familiar with car at that point already.

I guess tyre selection for Porsche may be to reflect it's Retro Supercars division.

I think it might be for the best if I rerun these cars through Street scene again during Spring.

Season: Spring

'98 Porsche 911 GT1 Strassenversion (S1 850) Rerun

I needed 68 races to complete all Street Scene events in game with Porsche during Spring. I didn’t won on Monument Wynds and Edinburgh New Town. I only did 5 tries on Monument Wynds, I considered it pointless, but not being able to win Edinburgh New Town was curious, so I did 10 attempts there.

I came once pretty close winning Edingburgh New Town with time: 2:03.858 losing to Drivatar ‘19 Porsche (S1 849) clocking 2:03.324. I wasn’t able to repeat times near that, typically finishing ~2.06 to 2.07’s. Fastest time I saw from Drivatar happened during my first 5 attempts, Hoonigan Group A (S1 880) finishing in 2:01.705.

Porsche was weird experience what comes to many races. Car evidently can be fast, but it’s very difficult to actually realise that potential. Yet I wonder if times around 2.01.xxx are consistently possible with it on Edingburgh New Town. It’s quite gimped by it’s poor tyres.

There were 3 races where leading Drivatars crashing into traffic helped me to win.

Overall result with Porsche on Spring was marginally better than during Winter, but there’s also human factor that I was really tired when I did first 12 Street on this run. If this weren’t being re-run, I would have done 10 races on Monument Wynds rising number of races with 1-5 to 69 – 74.

I did one race with one repeat with '10 Ferrari 599 GTO (S1 861) which I also run during winter and noticed quite fast that there’s no reason to grind it. It’s the same as during winter.


Series 16 Content Update

Season: Summer

‘14 McLaren 650S Spider (S1 873) [Car Pass]
‘12 Porsche 911 GT2 RS (S1 882) [Tracktoys]

‘14 McLaren 650S Spider (S1 873) turned out to be fun car, though it’s bit tail happy and its front can be a bit unpredictable at times. It’s also sort of unique and I can understand why these cars have their fans.

I was able to win all but Monuments Wynds, where my best position was second with time 2:16.954 against winning Drivatar finishing in 2:15.970. There was some sort of collisions with Drivatars and traffic in that race. My best time however was 2:14.169 finishing third versus Drivatar Ferrari FF (S1 867) clocking 2:13.367 and winning Drivatar Porsche 918 GTS (S1 871) finishing in 2:13.283.

In three out of five races leading Drivatars times had in 1:13’s and once in 1:14’s. I didn’t do but five tries on Monument Wynds.


‘12 Porsche 911 GT2 RS (S1 882) turned out to be another great car. I experienced couple of positive and negative surprises with it.

I was able to win Ambleside Ascent with first try. I side glanced a leading Drivatar in first right in curves in Ambleside Approach Speed Zone section.

I ended in trouble on three routes and two of them were quite baffling. I was finishing in second position on Ashbrook Apex and Broadway crossfire. My best time on Broadway Crossfire was 2:19.606 vs winning Drivatar Ford Fiesta GRC (S1 880) finishing in 2:17.621.

Otleydale Dash was another where I was able to get on second position but no win. I have screencaps from both races results but Xbox console companion activity history doesn’t reach back to them so I must to dig those times up later.

I gave five tries to each race. I was wondering if I’m feeling well really, as I had no major issues on other routes. My biggest surprise was winning on Monument Wynds on first try, but maybe I got some help from the Drivatar Line-Up. Starting from the first row there were #43 Dodge Viper (S1 878) which is a drift car and Ferrari 458 (S1 879). I won Drivatar Ferrari 468 with time 2:11.198 vs. 2:11.583.

‘12 Porsche 911 GR2 RS is really awesome car. It has race parts stock, though I didn’t adjust anything because that would render racing it meaningless for purposes of these test runs, but even in it’s bone stock form and all the races I still didn’t felt I was using it’s all potential. I was also pondering if losing on Ashbrook Apex and Broadway Crossfire was partially because of that and PI that comes from its adjustable parts. I had bit of issues with unpredictable weight transfer but it even in stock form that could be tuned out.

There is potentially another uninvited variable, left stick of my controller is starting to have a bit of wandering issue. I see if I can continue with it or if it starts causing anomalies to data.


Season: Autumn

'16 Dodge Viper ACR (S1 893) [Tracktoys]
'12 Pagani Huayra (S1 900)

'16 Dodge Viper ACR (S1 893) wasn’t competitive in every race. At least in it’s default configuration its poor acceleration after about 145 – 150 mph is its Achilles heel.

I wasn’t able to win with it at Ambleside Ascent, Otleydale Dash, Highland Charge and Coastal Charge. I gave 5 tries to each race. There were also 5 races where leading Drivatar(s) crashing to traffic contributed winning the race.

Times:
--------------------- Player Best - - Drivatar Best ---------------------
Amblside Ascent: 2:17.120 (4th) 2:13.100 - VW GRC Beetle (S1 982) Beetle started from first row
*Otleydale Dash : 2:27.906 (6th) 2:22.818 – Lamborghini Murcilelago (S1 888)
Highland Charge: 2:01.222 (3rd) 02:00.121 Ferrari 458 (S1 890) Ferrari started from first row
**Coastal Charge:1:47.983 (3rd) 1:44.196 Lamborghini Aventador J (S1 892) from first row

* Even leading Drivatars happened to hit traffic or having other issues in race, the best position I managed was second with 2:28.324, against time clocked by Lambo in table above. Slowest winning Drivatar time was 2:25.364 with Mercedes SL65 (S1 886).

** Coastal Charge results are interesting. I was able to get on second position in 3 out 5 attempts. Lambo Aventador J won every race with times between 1:47.241 - 1:44.196 usually at 1:45’s. My times were between 1:51.937 - 1:47.983 typically at 1.50’s. However once I pushed time below 1:50 not only leading, but also Drivatar racing on second position got faster, effectively getting faster causing me to lose position(s). It’s interesting because same thing happened at Highland Charge, after getting second positions I ended up finishing 3rd on my fastest time.

In a nutshell, if it is as it appears, as my times got better, my position got worse there might be bit of an issue with FH4 rubberband, though I assume situation like this might be very rare occurance. I furthermore speculate that it might be related to high PI in Track Toys division cars when raced without tuning.
IMO Losing positions because of faster times in race is definitely punishing player for getting better at gamee and should be fixed.

Viper however It turned out to be quite strong on Edinburgh races, only Edinburgh Stockbridge requiring 3 attempts, as it’s final section is about acceleration and top speed.

Won Monument Wynds at first try with time 2:09.329 against ‘18 Aston Marting Vantage (S1 890) finishing second in 2:09.764 and Porsche 917 LH (S1 888) finishing third in 2:12.984. Aston Martin and Porsche were starting from the first row.

Overall I did 69 races to complete 21 Street Scene races with Viper. For comparison I needed only 34 attempts to complete Street Scene races with '12 Pagani Huayra (S1 900). I was also able to win every race with Pagani, though on 3 races Drivatar crashing to traffic contributed towards win.


'12 Pagani Huayra (S1 900) turned out to be really great all-arounder. Won Monuments Wynds on second attempt finishing in 2:11.689 vs. Drivatar Ferrari Cali T (S1 899) clocking 2:12.300 and ‘16 BMW M4 (S1 898) coming third at 2:12.500. BMW starting from first row and Ferrari Cali T from second row.

Times on Marathon:
‘16 Dodge Viper 7:21.408 (one major mistake though) and 6:59.453 for Pagani (pretty clean run).

I didn’t noticed controller causing issues in races, even though right stick tends to wander on it’s own a bit on map and sometimes on menus. I don’t believe it caused unknown variables to test results as if that were been causing issues with Viper it would had done so with Pagani too. Despite PI difference between Dodge and Pagani only being seven points, results stand.


To do: Determine Peel vehicles spawning threshold relating to player vehicle PI in D-Class Completed

Edited by user Friday, February 7, 2020 10:36:02 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#35 Posted : Wednesday, October 30, 2019 11:45:52 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: teksenic Go to Quoted Post
Ok. NOW I'm fairly certain that the 2019 GT3 RS is broken. I decided to upgrade some of the cars I get put against when I choose the 2019 GT3 RS to the levels I saw them upgraded to (905 - 910). The Project 7 I upgraded to 910 will EASILY stomp the stock 2019 GT3 RS into the ground. Someone messed up with this car cos I can barely get it to over 200mph on the Goliath yet this Project 7 I upgraded will do every bit of that and then some. A bone stock GT3 RS PI is 915. I'm pretty sure that's either too high, or the car just isn't programmed right. Something is definitely a miss cos I can easily beat Unbeatable Drivatars with a stock 2018 GT2 RS and its PI is 910. I will definitely be putting in a ticket for this issue. Something isn't right.


Could you run few races on GT3 RS and GT2 RS stock and screencap / take notes of finishing times? Stock because upgrading doesn't help if car cannot meet it's Performance Index in practice in stock form. Upgrading just boost Drivatars to higher performance and relatively to Drivatars nothing practically changes.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#36 Posted : Wednesday, December 4, 2019 6:26:38 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: teksenic Go to Quoted Post
Ok. NOW I'm fairly certain that the 2019 GT3 RS is broken. I decided to upgrade some of the cars I get put against when I choose the 2019 GT3 RS to the levels I saw them upgraded to (905 - 910). The Project 7 I upgraded to 910 will EASILY stomp the stock 2019 GT3 RS into the ground. Someone messed up with this car cos I can barely get it to over 200mph on the Goliath yet this Project 7 I upgraded will do every bit of that and then some. A bone stock GT3 RS PI is 915. I'm pretty sure that's either too high, or the car just isn't programmed right. Something is definitely a miss cos I can easily beat Unbeatable Drivatars with a stock 2018 GT2 RS and its PI is 910. I will definitely be putting in a ticket for this issue. Something isn't right.


The 2016 GT3 RS has infinitely more grip than the 2019. How did this pass QA?
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