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Rank: C-Class Racing License
 4 users liked this post.
#1 Posted : Wednesday, September 4, 2019 9:49:40 AM(UTC)
In the last Forza Monthly, Chris Esaki talked a lot about how the future of Forza, particularly the next Motorsport game, will revolve around a "Build, Not Bought" approach. While he used this phrase to talk about multiple aspects of the game, it mainly applies to the age-old Forza formula of making your own car by applying upgrades and reaching a certain PI. The antithesis for this, homologation, will still be present in the next game according to Esaki, but will be less prevalent than it is in 7.

Personally, I love homologation, and how balanced a lot of the divisions became because of it. In fact, I think the homologation system in place is still too loose, and should be even more restrictive in the next game. For example, in any race car division, the builds should be fixed and unable to be tampered with. Even with the small amount of upgrades the current GT cars have, you can make multiple builds with most of them that result in vastly different times achievable with them. The new Cayman GT4, for example, can be built for handling and go #1 around Lime Rock, and then converted into a speed build and do #1 at Le Mans, when in real-life the car has one build that is dictated by BoP rules. Production car divisions are ok how they are now but I think they should be more restrictive with engine/drivetrain conversions. GT Sport should be the model here, as the way they balance their cars allows them to have proper esports events without requiring everyone to drive the same car.

Class-based racing is an ancient relic and should've been phased out by now. For one, it makes absolutely no sense to have a GT race car in the same race as a 70's sports car, or an early F1 car on the same track as a modern sedan. Divisions are GOOD and need to be the main focus in the next motorsport game. It's stupid how people rely on broken cars and broken builds to achieve fast times, when it should be solely skill that matters. Balanced cars are good, skill-gaps are good, car-gaps are not good. Upgrades should make SENSE and be relative to the type of division you are racing in. If you want to buy a old Chevy and put a massive engine in it and make it AWD and put in in S class, go do it in Horizon. That kind of stuff has no place in the Motorsport franchise anymore.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
 2 users liked this post.
#2 Posted : Wednesday, September 4, 2019 11:04:24 AM(UTC)
Why not both?

Don't use strong builds if you don't want to. Use what seems fun. Games are for fun.
Rank: Racing Permit
#3 Posted : Wednesday, September 4, 2019 12:16:33 PM(UTC)
If a good driver can tune an old Chevy to be competitive in S class in a track based game like Forza motorsports and they don 't want to play a game like Horizon that's great! Maybe, in a class oriented track based racing game, the ability to tune all cars that can be maxed out in that class to an equal performance level might be a good option, but then, maybe, the game starts to become a bit generic.
Rank: Racing Permit
#4 Posted : Thursday, September 5, 2019 11:18:19 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RZM Zenith Go to Quoted Post
In the last Forza Monthly, Chris Esaki talked a lot about how the future of Forza, particularly the next Motorsport game, will revolve around a "Build, Not Bought" approach. While he used this phrase to talk about multiple aspects of the game, it mainly applies to the age-old Forza formula of making your own car by applying upgrades and reaching a certain PI. The antithesis for this, homologation, will still be present in the next game according to Esaki, but will be less prevalent than it is in 7.

Personally, I love homologation, and how balanced a lot of the divisions became because of it. In fact, I think the homologation system in place is still too loose, and should be even more restrictive in the next game. For example, in any race car division, the builds should be fixed and unable to be tampered with. Even with the small amount of upgrades the current GT cars have, you can make multiple builds with most of them that result in vastly different times achievable with them. The new Cayman GT4, for example, can be built for handling and go #1 around Lime Rock, and then converted into a speed build and do #1 at Le Mans, when in real-life the car has one build that is dictated by BoP rules. Production car divisions are ok how they are now but I think they should be more restrictive with engine/drivetrain conversions. GT Sport should be the model here, as the way they balance their cars allows them to have proper esports events without requiring everyone to drive the same car.

Class-based racing is an ancient relic and should've been phased out by now. For one, it makes absolutely no sense to have a GT race car in the same race as a 70's sports car, or an early F1 car on the same track as a modern sedan. Divisions are GOOD and need to be the main focus in the next motorsport game. It's stupid how people rely on broken cars and broken builds to achieve fast times, when it should be solely skill that matters. Balanced cars are good, skill-gaps are good, car-gaps are not good. Upgrades should make SENSE and be relative to the type of division you are racing in. If you want to buy a old Chevy and put a massive engine in it and make it AWD and put in in S class, go do it in Horizon. That kind of stuff has no place in the Motorsport franchise anymore.


I also appreciate the introduction of the homologation groups - I prefer to go racing against cars of a similar type and vintage. The current alphabet classes are too loose in this regard for my tastes - running in A class and seeing such a wide range of vehicles (think a BoneShaker, an Atomic Punk, a couple of drift Mustangs and a Trailhawk, as well as a fleet of Honda's) is just odd. With homologation, these production-based groups make a lot more sense. Cars are similar in nature and vintage, they look appropriate around one another.

However, for the production-based classes, there is a lack of room to truly embrace the "built, not bought" approach, which I wholeheartedly support. I will use the Porsche Cayman GT4 with the Sport Coupe division to illustrate my point. (I think you are referring to the newly released Cayman GT4 race car in the Forza GT division).

Bone stock, the Cayman is rated at A673, with a class max of A675. This is the highest rated car in the Sport Coupe class, and you have a total of 2 PI points to "build" this car with. Note: this Cayman GT4 does come stock with adjustable Race Brakes and Race rollbars, both typically upgrades that cost additional PI. Basically, race it as "bought", not much room to build.

Let's look at what is available to reduce this PI value to start. A Race Rollcage is a minus 4 PI, a Race Rear Wing (adj) is a minus 1 PI and of course, you can find heavier wheels to drop it down another 4 PI points. This takes you down to a PI of A664, so a maximum of 11 PI points that can now be added back. Here are the basic options, ignoring engine modifications and and swaps:

Race Suspension +4 PI
Street Weight Reduction 7
Sport Weight reduction 18
Race Weight Reduction 38
Sport Transmission 3
Race Transmission 7
Front Splitter (Adj) 3
Delete Rear Wing 1
Front Tire +1 width 2
Front Tire +2 width 4
Rear Tire +1 width 2

You can also ignore the Sport Weight and Race Weight Reduction, as either option puts the car well over A675.

There are a few different combinations possible here to get our Cayman back to division max PI, but this car is going to be compromised no matter what build you put together. To make a fully adjustable build (add Race Transmission and Race Suspension) with this Cayman, you have to make it as heavy as possible (add a rollcage and heavy wheels), and add the drag of the rear wing. No power upgrades, no tire upgrades - not my vision of "building a car".

In my view the Sport Coupe Division (all the production based Divisions) just needs to have its maximum PI increased, in this case to A700, or thereabouts. With the additional 25 PI points over the current maximum, the Cayman now gets a lot more room to be built to the tuner's preferences. Sport weight reduction becomes a real option, keeping Colin Chapman in mind. Keep it heavy and add power, or make it lighter and retain the fully adjustable pieces in either case. There are similar examples in other Divisions where the top cars are basically driven stock - no room to be built at all. For those cars that start at the bottom of their Divisions, they now have even more flexibility to be "Built, not Bought".

TLDR - modify the current Production-based Divisions Max PIs to allow for greater build possibilities for the cars at the top of the Division.

Edited by user Thursday, September 5, 2019 11:27:03 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
 3 users liked this post.
#5 Posted : Thursday, September 5, 2019 11:44:42 AM(UTC)
On the other hand, I am happy to hear that that whole homologation thing will be less prevalent.

One of my favorite things to do in the older games was to see if I could win a race using a lower class car. ie) win an A class race using a B or C class car.

I would be nice for all, if both options were available, though. (homologated and non-homologation races)
Rank: Racing Permit
#6 Posted : Thursday, September 5, 2019 11:46:31 PM(UTC)
I'd like to see a mix where you have race car based leagues with full BoP in effect (no modding, but tuning allowed), ie IMSA, NASCAR, Touring, etc. Then the open classes like now, but with tighter restrictions on handling, acceleration, and top speed. That would make the racing closer while still allowing for builds. It would also help avoid certain specialized builds of certain cars from being the only real competitive option on certain tracks, especially behind a pay wall (looking at the lotus Elise gt1). You could still have handling, speed, and acceleration cars, but more cars would be able to be built to reach that instead of just a few.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#7 Posted : Friday, September 6, 2019 10:23:11 AM(UTC)
What you're asking for isnt homologation but spec racing, which makes sense for many of the divisions. LMP, F1, GT and the other race care should be in their own divisions and should only be raced with each other, certainly online.

Homogation itself isnt so much of a problem it's homologation + restrictive division requirements. There are way too many divisions dividing up the game, they need to broaden the divisions so that any ( more or less ) car that meets the weight/hp/tire/PI can get in.

I dont find class based racing to be relic but rather the core of Forza, run what you brung. The PI system attempts to bring a level of objective measure of car performance that real racing leages can only dream about. BoP penalizes success and good drivers and encourages them to san **** during testing. The PI system could use some work but it shouldnt be thrown out or force players into boring spec cars where cars just wind up being different skins.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#8 Posted : Friday, September 6, 2019 3:24:59 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: P00hhead Go to Quoted Post
What you're asking for isnt homologation but spec racing, which makes sense for many of the divisions. LMP, F1, GT and the other race care should be in their own divisions and should only be raced with each other, certainly online.

Homogation itself isnt so much of a problem it's homologation + restrictive division requirements. There are way too many divisions dividing up the game, they need to broaden the divisions so that any ( more or less ) car that meets the weight/hp/tire/PI can get in.

I dont find class based racing to be relic but rather the core of Forza, run what you brung. The PI system attempts to bring a level of objective measure of car performance that real racing leages can only dream about. BoP penalizes success and good drivers and encourages them to san **** during testing. The PI system could use some work but it shouldnt be thrown out or force players into boring spec cars where cars just wind up being different skins.


I would actually really like to see weight restrictions because too many cars get away with this and start to fundamentally break the game and it's rating system. Or they could do what I would do and hardcode a permanent penalty to the cars, ie. increase their base score, to balance things out. The problem is they don't balance this game.

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