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Rank: B-Class Racing License
#1 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2019 7:36:42 AM(UTC)
The gamepad steering doesn't know how to drive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvDD8V9Liq8
Rank: S-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#2 Posted : Friday, August 30, 2019 8:07:48 AM(UTC)
Please elaborate.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#3 Posted : Friday, August 30, 2019 8:53:36 AM(UTC)
I thinks it's not Forza.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#4 Posted : Monday, September 2, 2019 12:26:30 AM(UTC)
I think he may be referring to the hidden aids and steering restrictions on the pad - aka. speed sensitive steering.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#5 Posted : Monday, September 2, 2019 3:14:35 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
I think he may be referring to the hidden aids and steering restrictions on the pad - aka. speed sensitive steering.

LOL, it's not clear at all. But aids are not hidden. You need to smooth input a lot for normal players. The questing is if addition of settings is a good idea. Without it everybody has the same chance which is important too.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#6 Posted : Monday, September 2, 2019 7:41:10 AM(UTC)
Looks how often the driver in the video crosses into opposite lock, and how steady the car remains in spite (or because?) of it.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#7 Posted : Tuesday, September 3, 2019 12:11:18 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Looks how often the driver in the video crosses into opposite lock, and how steady the car remains in spite (or because?) of it.

You're not making any sense.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#8 Posted : Tuesday, September 3, 2019 12:12:06 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: turtleCZ Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
I think he may be referring to the hidden aids and steering restrictions on the pad - aka. speed sensitive steering.

LOL, it's not clear at all. But aids are not hidden. You need to smooth input a lot for normal players. The questing is if addition of settings is a good idea. Without it everybody has the same chance which is important too.

Incorrect. There are hidden driver aids for controllers.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#9 Posted : Tuesday, September 3, 2019 2:15:05 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: turtleCZ Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
I think he may be referring to the hidden aids and steering restrictions on the pad - aka. speed sensitive steering.

LOL, it's not clear at all. But aids are not hidden. You need to smooth input a lot for normal players. The questing is if addition of settings is a good idea. Without it everybody has the same chance which is important too.

Incorrect. There are hidden driver aids for controllers.

How could it be hidden if you feel it immediately? Everybody can hear the problem with tyres on front wheels. In Horizon it's even better, you have more aids but you can feel it. It's not hidden at all.

For instance, if you disable speed sensitivity steering you wouldn't be possible to steer at all. And there are others too... not hidden :D
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#10 Posted : Tuesday, September 3, 2019 2:19:12 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Looks how often the driver in the video crosses into opposite lock, and how steady the car remains in spite (or because?) of it.

What aid is the biggest problem for you or the video?

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#11 Posted : Tuesday, September 3, 2019 3:40:15 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: turtleCZ Go to Quoted Post
What aid is the biggest problem for you or the video?

Yaw assist. Intelligent steering correction, with respect to yaw and rear grip as well as front grip, could stabilize vehicles equally well, with better response, precision, et cetera, to boot. Aka, more fun.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#12 Posted : Tuesday, September 3, 2019 4:28:37 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: turtleCZ Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: turtleCZ Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
I think he may be referring to the hidden aids and steering restrictions on the pad - aka. speed sensitive steering.

LOL, it's not clear at all. But aids are not hidden. You need to smooth input a lot for normal players. The questing is if addition of settings is a good idea. Without it everybody has the same chance which is important too.

Incorrect. There are hidden driver aids for controllers.

How could it be hidden if you feel it immediately? Everybody can hear the problem with tyres on front wheels. In Horizon it's even better, you have more aids but you can feel it. It's not hidden at all.

For instance, if you disable speed sensitivity steering you wouldn't be possible to steer at all. And there are others too... not hidden :D

Hidden in the sense that you can't toggle it on or off.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#13 Posted : Tuesday, September 3, 2019 4:55:42 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: turtleCZ Go to Quoted Post
What aid is the biggest problem for you or the video?

Yaw assist. Intelligent steering correction, with respect to yaw and rear grip as well as front grip, could stabilize vehicles equally well, with better response, precision, et cetera, to boot. Aka, more fun.

Let me clear since misconceptions up once and for all:

1. Yaw assist is not just a controller feature. You can toggle it off by selecting 'Simulation Steering'. Yaw assist only affects normal steering which keeps the car in control when going from lock to lock rapidly, as stated on the support site.

In short, when you toggle on 'Simulation Steering' you toggle off yaw affect no matter your peripheral.

2. Yes, Forza has speed and friction sensitive steering. Almost every racing game with controller support does. There's a simple reason for this. A controller joystick is not precise enough to enable you to control fine inputs correctly. The steering in Forza on a controller calculates speed and friction to give you almost 100% peak friction at all times when moving the joystick to max input left or right, essentially meaning you can't really understeer on a controller unless you lose the rear and first.

If Turn 10 removed speed and friction sensitive steering lock, not only would lap times on a controller be slower, not only would consistency be harder but every time you gave the joystick max input, no matter the speed, you'd be giving the car max steering lock which would just make you understeer horrifically at every corner.

3. Forza has a small steering buffer or delay, mainly when transitioning to prevent users abusing the controller's ability to go from 0% input to 100% input instantly. This is to prevent users from going from -100% to + 100% steering lock instantly which would be ridiculously overpowered especially at corners like tight chickens. It's also there to make the cars less twitchy and prevent abuse of input speeds on a controller.

4. Forza does have a side to side body roll assist on a controller. This is to compensate for the lack of actually being in the car. Again, without it, driving would be much harder.

Forza's controller implementation has always been class leading. Why do you think that most if not almost all top leaderboard times are usually dominated by controller users? It's because it's so well implemented and compared to other titles, extremely well balanced compared to the wheel.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#14 Posted : Tuesday, September 3, 2019 5:20:46 AM(UTC)
Obviously never played PC Cars with a controller. In that game every car was in-drivable with a game pad.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#15 Posted : Tuesday, September 3, 2019 6:28:25 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Griff Vulture Go to Quoted Post
Obviously never played PC Cars with a controller. In that game every car was in-drivable with a game pad.


Not at all. Are you on Xbox playing PCARS? I can share my pad settings - the control will be smooth as a baby's behind.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#16 Posted : Tuesday, September 3, 2019 8:14:53 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: turtleCZ Go to Quoted Post
What aid is the biggest problem for you or the video?

Yaw assist. Intelligent steering correction, with respect to yaw and rear grip as well as front grip, could stabilize vehicles equally well, with better response, precision, et cetera, to boot. Aka, more fun.

Let me clear since misconceptions up once and for all:

1. Yaw assist is not just a controller feature. You can toggle it off by selecting 'Simulation Steering'. Yaw assist only affects normal steering which keeps the car in control when going from lock to lock rapidly, as stated on the support site.

In short, when you toggle on 'Simulation Steering' you toggle off yaw affect no matter your peripheral.

2. Yes, Forza has speed and friction sensitive steering. Almost every racing game with controller support does. There's a simple reason for this. A controller joystick is not precise enough to enable you to control fine inputs correctly. The steering in Forza on a controller calculates speed and friction to give you almost 100% peak friction at all times when moving the joystick to max input left or right, essentially meaning you can't really understeer on a controller unless you lose the rear and first.

If Turn 10 removed speed and friction sensitive steering lock, not only would lap times on a controller be slower, not only would consistency be harder but every time you gave the joystick max input, no matter the speed, you'd be giving the car max steering lock which would just make you understeer horrifically at every corner.

3. Forza has a small steering buffer or delay, mainly when transitioning to prevent users abusing the controller's ability to go from 0% input to 100% input instantly. This is to prevent users from going from -100% to + 100% steering lock instantly which would be ridiculously overpowered especially at corners like tight chickens. It's also there to make the cars less twitchy and prevent abuse of input speeds on a controller.

4. Forza does have a side to side body roll assist on a controller. This is to compensate for the lack of actually being in the car. Again, without it, driving would be much harder.

Forza's controller implementation has always been class leading. Why do you think that most if not almost all top leaderboard times are usually dominated by controller users? It's because it's so well implemented and compared to other titles, extremely well balanced compared to the wheel.

Evan dont waste your time trying to break it down for this guy. He makes the same post again and again. Last time he did this I asked him if he had ever played Assetto Corsa with a controller. That's the definition of unplayable unless you run a wheel. He didn't seem to think there was an issue with that game.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#17 Posted : Tuesday, September 3, 2019 8:17:11 AM(UTC)
I didn't?
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#18 Posted : Tuesday, September 3, 2019 11:45:38 PM(UTC)
Games like PCARS2 and AC run fine on an xbox game pad. You just have to find your groove, set it up correctly according to your driving style, and approach the control very, very differently than Forza.

Forza just makes the control very easy, intuitive and straightforward, really. There's little nuance or learning curve.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#19 Posted : Wednesday, September 4, 2019 10:26:43 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
2. Yes, Forza has speed and friction sensitive steering. Almost every racing game with controller support does.


I agree, friction sensitivity is good. What's bad is ONLY reading the front tires. Ideally, the yaw rate of the vehicle should be a major input variable in the gamepad integration, too.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#20 Posted : Wednesday, September 4, 2019 10:44:22 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
4. Forza does have a side to side body roll assist on a controller. This is to compensate for the lack of actually being in the car. Again, without it, driving would be much harder.


Isn't that what suspension dampers are for?
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#21 Posted : Wednesday, September 4, 2019 2:37:07 PM(UTC)
I'm all for gamepad integration that converts intent as read through a thumbstick, to relevant and effective steering inputs in all possible scenarios. What I don't like is limiting or injecting forces in(to) a simulation to compensate for ineffective gamepad integration, poor suspension setup, or poor tire physics (if that is the problem).
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#22 Posted : Thursday, September 5, 2019 2:42:16 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
2. Yes, Forza has speed and friction sensitive steering. Almost every racing game with controller support does.


I agree, friction sensitivity is good. What's bad is ONLY reading the front tires. Ideally, the yaw rate of the vehicle should be a major input variable in the gamepad integration, too.

The game does read the rear tires:
We know this because if you go into a slide, turning into the slide and continuing to turn into the direction of the slide after your car regains control, cancels out friction sensitivity.

You also don't need to base friction sensitivity on rear grip or yaw anyway as it serves no benefit to the player.

As for damping body roll, that's to compensate for the lack of being in control of the car and is to compensate for the relatively twitch steering a controller brings. Though I agree, it would be more challenging without it, cats would probably feel very twitchy and boat-like without it. I'd imagine SIM steering without the damping would be a nightmare and SIM twitch would probably be very pronounced.


Rank: B-Class Racing License
#23 Posted : Thursday, September 5, 2019 3:36:28 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post

The game does read the rear tires:
We know this because if you go into a slide, turning into the slide and continuing to turn into the direction of the slide after your car regains control, cancels out friction sensitivity.

Why does it cancel friction sensitivity? The front tires are sensitive to slipangle all the way to 90 degrees, if they are rotating! The exact steering angle is relevant during opposite lock.

Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
You also don't need to base friction sensitivity on rear grip or yaw anyway as it serves no benefit to the player.

Yes, it would. currently any amount of oversteer is a huge loss of control--not realistic, not fast, not fun to push.

Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
As for damping body roll, that's to compensate for the lack of being in control of the car and is to compensate for the relatively twitch steering a controller brings. Though I agree, it would be more challenging without it, cars would probably feel very twitchy

Why not make the steering less twitchy? The point of gamepad integration, as I said before, is to generate effective outputs in real-time based on player input that guide the car as a calm, perceptive, experienced driver might, in a real car. If you don't want Forza to feel like driving a real car, that's fine. I would, which is why I'm trying to drive this point home.

Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
and boat-like without it.

Isn't twitchy the opposite of boaty? Make up your mind.

Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
I'd imagine SIM steering without the damping would be a nightmare and SIM twitch would probably be very pronounced.

Sim twitch is fixed in FM7. You know, when you try to catch a slide and fling the car into a snap spin to the outside, instead. It happened in FM4, FM5, and FM6, but not 7 in my experience.
If anything, sim steering is mind-numbingly slow in FM7. There's a difference between slow, deliberate car control, and ginger, unconfident steering input. Watch the video I shared. Look how controlled the rotation of the car is. Sometimes the steering wheel turns slowly, sometimes he snaps to opposite lock. 100% of the time he's focused on carrying maximum speed.

Edited by user Thursday, September 5, 2019 3:43:53 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#24 Posted : Thursday, September 5, 2019 5:06:20 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post

The game does read the rear tires:
We know this because if you go into a slide, turning into the slide and continuing to turn into the direction of the slide after your car regains control, cancels out friction sensitivity.

Why does it cancel friction sensitivity? The front tires are sensitive to slipangle all the way to 90 degrees, if they are rotating! The exact steering angle is relevant during opposite lock.

Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
You also don't need to base friction sensitivity on rear grip or yaw anyway as it serves no benefit to the player.

Yes, it would. currently any amount of oversteer is a huge loss of control--not realistic, not fast, not fun to push.

Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
As for damping body roll, that's to compensate for the lack of being in control of the car and is to compensate for the relatively twitch steering a controller brings. Though I agree, it would be more challenging without it, cars would probably feel very twitchy

Why not make the steering less twitchy? The point of gamepad integration, as I said before, is to generate effective outputs in real-time based on player input that guide the car as a calm, perceptive, experienced driver might, in a real car. If you don't want Forza to feel like driving a real car, that's fine. I would, which is why I'm trying to drive this point home.

Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
and boat-like without it.

Isn't twitchy the opposite of boaty? Make up your mind.

Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
I'd imagine SIM steering without the damping would be a nightmare and SIM twitch would probably be very pronounced.

Sim twitch is fixed in FM7. You know, when you try to catch a slide and fling the car into a snap spin to the outside, instead. It happened in FM4, FM5, and FM6, but not 7 in my experience.
If anything, sim steering is mind-numbingly slow in FM7. There's a difference between slow, deliberate car control, and ginger, unconfident steering input. Watch the video I shared. Look how controlled the rotation of the car is. Sometimes the steering wheel turns slowly, sometimes he snaps to opposite lock. 100% of the time he's focused on carrying maximum speed.

No clue as to why it cancels friction sensitivity. I assume it's to balance out the controller compared to the wheel. If it didn't cancel out friction sensitivity, small mistakes would go un-punished.

No. Friction sensitive steering based on rear tires or yaw wouldn't offer any additional information to the driver. The whole point of friction sensitive steering is to push the front tires to the limits, not the rears. You can't have the front tires' steering angle controlled by the rear tires friction. You're you're saying its 'unrealistic'. Bruh... you're driving a car on a controller... OF COURSE it's going to be unrealistic because changes and adjustments have to be made to the peripheral or the physics to accommodate the fact you're driving a car with a controller instead of a wheel. And oversteer is a huge loss of control regardless of your peripheral. I don't understand your point at all.

Boaty as in Ricky from side to side. This is why we have a steering buffer and roll damping. Without it, using 100% stick input would literally make the car rock from side to side if you went back and forth. It would literally be the same as turning you wheel to 270° and turning your wheel as fast as you can for literally any input. It would make the car unbelievably twitch and the body roll (hence boaty) feeling would be severe because you'd be going from max input to max input instantaneously.

Sim steering is reduced BECAUSE OF THESE FEATURES. That's literally the point of the whole controller hidden assists. To make it feel more natural. You remove these features and SIM twitch would be ridiculous.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#25 Posted : Thursday, September 5, 2019 9:43:09 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
No clue as to why it cancels friction sensitivity. I assume it's to balance out the controller compared to the wheel. If it didn't cancel out friction sensitivity, small mistakes would go un-punished.

Forza is for masochists. Got it.
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