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Rank: B-Class Racing License
#51 Posted : Friday, August 23, 2019 10:55:58 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post

Photo 1: The LaF in real life has a very satisfying bright red glow to the brake lights not bright orange or yellow. The Venom GT in front of my car has more realistic looking brake lights but the inside tail lights seem orange to me, not red.


The color is fine but there should be a least some bloom if the "camera" is over-exposed. All the detail in the taillights.. should be blurred or obscured if the color is distorted so far. That's what stands out to me.

The ambient-light taillight color shift effect is a good idea, but it needs refinement and consistency across conditions (strongest at night, absent in bright daylight). Right now it's just immersion-breaking--"who replaced my brake lights with turn signals?"

Red LEDs should never appear yellow--they don't produce any other wavelengths than visible red. Overexposure turns them pink, eventually white. White LEDs filtered to red could overexpose to yellow. AFAIK reds are cheaper to make, and brighter than filtered whites, so most LED tails have red diodes.


What kind of screen are you on? Are you seeing washed out or otherwise funny looking tail lights in FM7, FH4 and PCARS2 under specific track conditions only?

I was driving at Road Atlanta the other day, and it kind of **** ed me off to see bright orange brake lights on my 70s Trans Am!
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#52 Posted : Saturday, August 24, 2019 12:17:32 PM(UTC)
FH4 has the opposite problem. Too many tails over-expose to white/pink, instead of orange, like they should. They never wash out though. If they turn white it's only in the brightest area and accompanied by bloom. Overall, it feels natural. I haven't touched FM7 or PCars 2 in a while.

LEDs, pink/white overexposure.






These should have more orange-y lights.





Only car I could find with properly orange over-exposure due to white incandescent bulbs.

Edit: I've found pictures of incandescent taillights with pink over-exposure. Most are orange/yellow.. but by that point there is strong blooming too, occluding the detail and blurring the shape of the lens/cluster. To reasonably shift the color of tails all the way to yellow, or white, overwhelming bloom should be present as well...

I use an LG 25UM58-P. It's a 25-inch, 1080p 21:9. It's like a 27-inch 1440p with 360 vertical pixels removed.

Edited by user Saturday, August 24, 2019 3:42:12 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#53 Posted : Saturday, August 24, 2019 10:57:41 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
FH4 has the opposite problem. Too many tails over-expose to white/pink, instead of orange, like they should. They never wash out though. If they turn white it's only in the brightest area and accompanied by bloom. Overall, it feels natural. I haven't touched FM7 or PCars 2 in a while.

LEDs, pink/white overexposure.






These should have more orange-y lights.





Only car I could find with properly orange over-exposure due to white incandescent bulbs.

Edit: I've found pictures of incandescent taillights with pink over-exposure. Most are orange/yellow.. but by that point there is strong blooming too, occluding the detail and blurring the shape of the lens/cluster. To reasonably shift the color of tails all the way to yellow, or white, overwhelming bloom should be present as well...

I use an LG 25UM58-P. It's a 25-inch, 1080p 21:9. It's like a 27-inch 1440p with 360 vertical pixels removed.


I get the exact same tail lights in FH4 as well. They're nowhere as washed out, flat or just eerily bright yellow as FM7 but, thankfully, at least they somewhat resemble real tail lights. If they copy/paste FH4's tail lights into FM7, honestly I'd be happy with those.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#54 Posted : Saturday, October 19, 2019 4:11:18 PM(UTC)
Thanks for this thread, because it's all I kept thinking about while watching today's ForzaRC Invitational! 😂
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#55 Posted : Sunday, October 20, 2019 1:01:48 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for this thread, because it's all I kept thinking about while watching today's ForzaRC Invitational! 😂


Oo-kay - my sarcasm detection meter is about to break....
Rank: Racing Permit
#56 Posted : Wednesday, November 6, 2019 8:28:06 AM(UTC)
I am using an HDR enabled LG OLED TV and I have it setup to use HDR in Forza Motorsport 7 and I still am able to see the those "orange" break lights. I think it's less of a problem with the HDR implementation and more of a design choice by the developers.

To be honest I would not have noticed this without people talking about it here and actually it doesn't change my enjoyment of the game. I stumbled upon this topic while trying to figure out why each tunnel is so dark in this game, since the car headlights cast no light on those tracks, but I could improve the issue by raising the brightness in the main menu options.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#57 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2019 11:28:59 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Fejer Go to Quoted Post
I am using an HDR enabled LG OLED TV and I have it setup to use HDR in Forza Motorsport 7 and I still am able to see the those "orange" break lights. I think it's less of a problem with the HDR implementation and more of a design choice by the developers.

To be honest I would not have noticed this without people talking about it here and actually it doesn't change my enjoyment of the game. I stumbled upon this topic while trying to figure out why each tunnel is so dark in this game, since the car headlights cast no light on those tracks, but I could improve the issue by raising the brightness in the main menu options.


Thanks for lending your thoughts - I knew this was not a TV-specific issue. The brake lights seem to lean more towards bright orange, even bright yellow under specific track counditions like too cloudy or overcast - or early morning, late afternoon settings. And, around certain parts of the track, they will start to glow orange.

It is wildly inconsistent and clearly shows an issue with the auto-exposure feature of the game. The brake lights look perfectly okay to me in FM5 and 6. It doesn't change my enjoyment of the game either - but makes me wonder why it's even an issue to begin with, since they were so heavily advertising 4K/HDR/60 fps from the get-go. I might have been okay with it if it were an issue in older FM games - but it's never been one, so why now?

Is there even a quality testing team in the company anymore?
Rank: Racing Permit
#58 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2019 5:17:18 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
The brake lights look perfectly okay to me in FM5 and 6. It doesn't change my enjoyment of the game either - but makes me wonder why it's even an issue to begin with, since they were so heavily advertising 4K/HDR/60 fps from the get-go. I might have been okay with it if it were an issue in older FM games - but it's never been one, so why now?


Like I mentioned I believe it is a design choice. My guess is that the art directors wanted to sell an artistically more gloomy and more dramatic looking game, maybe even so the HDR contrast is more eye-popping when you have bright light sources in dark images. The rain sections certainly look way more darker in FM 7 than in FM 6, here is a nice comparison video showing the difference between FM 6 & FM 7 in rain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzLQjGY-Cx4
Another theory I have since those tail lights are now more visible during low-light races (in FM6 you can barely tell if the tail light is on or not) the developers/designers maybe decided to use orange break lights so the player can tell if cars in front are actually breaking or not.

Also found a nice video showing off the orange tail lights during a night race:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoGnxhXk9_8&t=27
Here's a screenshot:
FM7 Orange Tail Light

Edited by user Wednesday, November 13, 2019 7:41:46 AM(UTC)  | Reason: replaced "darker" by "gloomy"

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#59 Posted : Tuesday, November 19, 2019 12:11:16 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Fejer Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
The brake lights look perfectly okay to me in FM5 and 6. It doesn't change my enjoyment of the game either - but makes me wonder why it's even an issue to begin with, since they were so heavily advertising 4K/HDR/60 fps from the get-go. I might have been okay with it if it were an issue in older FM games - but it's never been one, so why now?


Like I mentioned I believe it is a design choice. My guess is that the art directors wanted to sell an artistically more gloomy and more dramatic looking game, maybe even so the HDR contrast is more eye-popping when you have bright light sources in dark images. The rain sections certainly look way more darker in FM 7 than in FM 6, here is a nice comparison video showing the difference between FM 6 & FM 7 in rain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzLQjGY-Cx4
Another theory I have since those tail lights are now more visible during low-light races (in FM6 you can barely tell if the tail light is on or not) the developers/designers maybe decided to use orange break lights so the player can tell if cars in front are actually breaking or not.

Also found a nice video showing off the orange tail lights during a night race:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoGnxhXk9_8&t=27
Here's a screenshot:
FM7 Orange Tail Light


Makes a lot of sense - but what a strange and unorthodox design choice it is!

Check out some of these screens.

The most unsettling ones are the ones where tail lights glow bright yellow, with the result that in certain low contrast track conditions where it's either completely overcast or a sunrise/sunset/late afternoon settings, the 'third' tail light will lose color almost completely, along with exhaust flames - the latter actually look more like a muzzle flash than exhaust flames.

Yellow glowy tail lights
More orange and yellow tail lights
Weird tail lights
'Just not red' tail lights
Strange tail lights and unusual exhaust 'muzzle flash'
Exhaust 'muzzle flash' side view
Rank: Racing Permit
#60 Posted : Wednesday, November 20, 2019 4:31:00 AM(UTC)
By chance I stumbled upon a racing game comparison video, where someone is comparing Forza 7, DriveClub, Project CARS 2 and Gran Turismo Sport. The video has a 2014 Chevrolet Corvette C7 (except for Forza 7 where they use the 2018 Porsche 911 GT2 RS) driven in the games during daylight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkteQfuMaX0

Apparently nowadays many racing games have this "issue" with displaying break lights in an orange color.
Here's a screenshot from Project CARS 2 at 1:52:
https://pasteboard.co/IHyFX01.png

Here's a screenshot from Gran Turismo Sport at 2.24:
https://pasteboard.co/IHyKz7b.png

Here's also a screenshot from Forza Horizon 3:
https://pasteboard.co/IHyQBGb.png

Apparently DriveClub and GRID (2019) display break lights in a red color.

Edited by user Wednesday, November 20, 2019 4:44:33 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#61 Posted : Wednesday, November 20, 2019 10:12:44 PM(UTC)
Thanks for posting those links;

Yes, I have noticed the orange, and sometimes, bright yellow or almost flat white brake lights in games like PCARS2 and Horizon 3, but not GTS.

I did not bring up PCARS 2 because this isn't really the forum for it. Do you see weird colors on the brake lights on your HDR screen while playing PCARS2?

I swear none of this nonsense was around before they decided to market "HDR" in games - although most games still do a standout job or reproducing great colors, including accurate reds: GOW 4 and 5, SoTR, Witcher 3, and many others. Don't know why this is now an issue in some racing games. Ironically, it was never an issue in FH2, FM5 or 6 - this is before they started implementing HDR.

I still can't get over what a strange design choice this is - do they want the brake lights to look cartoony when they light up?

I'm now literally looking around, eye-balling tail lights on different cars - day and night and in different weather conditions. Nope - no orange or yellow tail lights in real life!

The developers really need to be proactive about nuisances like these - tail lights ought to look like tail lights, especially when you brake - not turn signals, thank you!

Edited by user Wednesday, November 20, 2019 10:23:30 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#62 Posted : Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:36:52 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post

I did not bring up PCARS 2 because this isn't really the forum for it. Do you see weird colors on the brake lights on your HDR screen while playing PCARS2?

I've only played the demo of Project CARS 2 back in 2017 when the game came out, but I don't remember how the break lights looked like. I didn't really pay attention to the color of the tail lights back then. I've bought Project CARS 2 during a sale for Xbox One, but I haven't started playing it yet. Plus I read online some people saying that the PCARS2's HDR implementation isn't that good.

Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
I swear none of this nonsense was around before they decided to market "HDR" in games - although most games still do a standout job or reproducing great colors, including accurate reds: GOW 4 and 5, SoTR, Witcher 3, and many others. Don't know why this is now an issue in some racing games. Ironically, it was never an issue in FH2, FM5 or 6 - this is before they started implementing HDR.

I still can't get over what a strange design choice this is - do they want the brake lights to look cartoony when they light up?

It seems like you're not the only one who noticed this (unless you're on reddit with a different name).
https://www.reddit.com/r...t_forza_7_in_hdr_brake/

I'm not sure if this has something to do with HDR. The first Project CARS did not support HDR and in that game the Corvette C7R looks like this:
https://pasteboard.co/IHGD6t8.png
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn7G2KlVMU8

One comparison video between Project CARS and Assetto Corsa Competizione shows that Assetto Corsa has red lights.
https://youtu.be/MNKiKHPGwms?t=65

I've check online and some people actually have orange tail lights installed in their cars in real life.
Chevrolet Corvette:

Source: https://www.corvetteforu...ake-light-blackout.html

McLaren P1:

Source: https://www.carthrottle.com/post/w97ovvm/



Rank: B-Class Racing License
#63 Posted : Thursday, November 21, 2019 2:54:52 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Fejer Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post

I did not bring up PCARS 2 because this isn't really the forum for it. Do you see weird colors on the brake lights on your HDR screen while playing PCARS2?

I've only played the demo of Project CARS 2 back in 2017 when the game came out, but I don't remember how the break lights looked like. I didn't really pay attention to the color of the tail lights back then. I've bought Project CARS 2 during a sale for Xbox One, but I haven't started playing it yet. Plus I read online some people saying that the PCARS2's HDR implementation isn't that good.

Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
I swear none of this nonsense was around before they decided to market "HDR" in games - although most games still do a standout job or reproducing great colors, including accurate reds: GOW 4 and 5, SoTR, Witcher 3, and many others. Don't know why this is now an issue in some racing games. Ironically, it was never an issue in FH2, FM5 or 6 - this is before they started implementing HDR.

I still can't get over what a strange design choice this is - do they want the brake lights to look cartoony when they light up?

It seems like you're not the only one who noticed this (unless you're on reddit with a different name).
https://www.reddit.com/r...t_forza_7_in_hdr_brake/

I'm not sure if this has something to do with HDR. The first Project CARS did not support HDR and in that game the Corvette C7R looks like this:
https://pasteboard.co/IHGD6t8.png
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn7G2KlVMU8

One comparison video between Project CARS and Assetto Corsa Competizione shows that Assetto Corsa has red lights.
https://youtu.be/MNKiKHPGwms?t=65

I've check online and some people actually have orange tail lights installed in their cars in real life.
Chevrolet Corvette:

Source: https://www.corvetteforu...ake-light-blackout.html

McLaren P1:

Source: https://www.carthrottle.com/post/w97ovvm/




there's an option to change the tail light color from red to orange in real life? Well... okay then, to each their own I suppose.

As for that reddit thread, yes - I did Google the issue and that thread popped up - because I remember the gross looking photo of the 458 with bright yellow tail lights. I have noticed this on my TV too in overcast conditions when there are almost no shadows. And this guy has an HDR TV.

I would have to give it to Assetto Corsa for getting the tail lights right. Also in PCARS 1, I have no issues whatsoever with tail lights - they look the right color of red in day and night. Same with FM6. Same with FH2. They introduced HDR in FH3, 4 and 7, and this is where these problems popped up - they are the worst in FM7.

Possible fixes:

Recalibrate the game to get the auto-exposure feature to work correctly - exposing the tail light glare realistically in all weather conditions and time of day.

Adjust the glare and luminance levels of both tail lights and headlights according to day/night or weather conditions.

Just - please - bring back the red tail light glare/luminance from FM6. It looked so nice and convincing in day, night and rain. It was perfect.

The tail lights at night in FM7 should be a lot more pronounced with red glare/halo around the tail lights, according to what car you're driving. And the tail lights should still look red and not orange or YELLOW in a variety of daytime race conditions.

Edited by user Thursday, November 21, 2019 2:56:41 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#64 Posted : Thursday, November 21, 2019 3:00:30 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Fejer Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post

I did not bring up PCARS 2 because this isn't really the forum for it. Do you see weird colors on the brake lights on your HDR screen while playing PCARS2?

I've only played the demo of Project CARS 2 back in 2017 when the game came out, but I don't remember how the break lights looked like. I didn't really pay attention to the color of the tail lights back then. I've bought Project CARS 2 during a sale for Xbox One, but I haven't started playing it yet. Plus I read online some people saying that the PCARS2's HDR implementation isn't that good.

[quote=opencamswrx;1137343]I swear none of this nonsense was around before they decided to market "HDR" in games - although most games still do a standout job or reproducing great colors, including accurate reds: GOW 4 and 5, SoTR, Witcher 3, and many others. Don't know why this is now an issue in some racing games. Ironically, it was never an issue in FH2, FM5 or 6 - this is before they started implementing HDR.

I still can't get over what a strange design choice this is - do they want the brake lights to look cartoony when they light up?

It seems like you're not the only one who noticed this (unless you're on reddit with a different name).
https://www.reddit.com/r...t_forza_7_in_hdr_brake/

I'm not sure if this has something to do with HDR. The first Project CARS did not support HDR and in that game the Corvette C7R looks like this:
https://pasteboard.co/IHGD6t8.png
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn7G2KlVMU8

One comparison video between Project CARS and Assetto Corsa Competizione shows that Assetto Corsa has red lights.
https://youtu.be/MNKiKHPGwms?t=65

I've check online and some people actually have orange tail lights installed in their cars in real life.
Chevrolet Corvette:

Source: https://www.corvetteforu...ake-light-blackout.html

McLaren P1:

Source: https://www.carthrottle.com/post/w97ovvm/





there's an option to change the tail light color from red to orange in real life? Well... okay then, to each their own I suppose.

Edit: I just thought of something - the tail lights are probably red, but it's how the camera picked it up. They're showing up as orange in the photo, and maybe T10 wanted to mimic this effect? I also remember, at times, tail lights not looking the right color in movies due to all the color filters and post-processing they use to give the film a specific look and feel.

As for that reddit thread, yes - I did Google the issue and that thread popped up - because I remember the gross looking photo of the 458 with bright yellow tail lights. I have noticed this on my TV too in overcast conditions when there are almost no shadows. And this guy has an HDR TV.

I would have to give it to Assetto Corsa for getting the tail lights right. Also in PCARS 1, I have no issues whatsoever with tail lights - they look the right color of red in day and night. Same with FM6. Same with FH2. They introduced HDR in FH3, 4 and 7, and this is where these problems popped up - they are the worst in FM7.

Possible fixes:

Recalibrate the game to get the auto-exposure feature to work correctly - exposing the tail light glare realistically in all weather conditions and time of day.

Adjust the glare and luminance levels of both tail lights and headlights according to day/night or weather conditions.

Just - please - bring back the red tail light glare/luminance from FM6. It looked so nice and convincing in day, night and rain. It was perfect.

The tail lights at night in FM7 should be a lot more pronounced with red glare/halo around the tail lights, according to what car you're driving. And the tail lights should still look red and not orange or YELLOW in a variety of daytime race conditions.

there are times when the tail lights on my car during a daytime race would look okayish around one section, and around another section, when the direction of the sun/shadows would change, the lights would again start to look orange or yellow.

Culprit: it's the game's autoexposure engine. It's broken. It was fine in Forza 5 and 6.

Edited by user Thursday, November 21, 2019 3:12:57 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#65 Posted : Friday, November 22, 2019 3:33:36 AM(UTC)
That's what I've been trying to say all-along. In any view aside from the first person views, the game has camera artefact effects, as it should because it's through a camera. You can see lens flair, dirt and particles on the lens itself and probably over-exposure of the tail lights which most cameras do.

Yes Forza does need to tweak its lighting model slightly, though the game still looks good enough imo. There needs to be more of a sparkle effect instead of a bloom and glow effect on paint in particular and on lights and there needs to be a general reduction in bloom and exposure but these are small tweaks.

Comparing Forza Motorsport 5 and 6 to 7 isn't fair. They're all pre-rendered, pre-baked, not dynmaic weather systems or no weather systems at all. Of course they're going to look better on current hardware. When you introduce weather systems and effects such as dynamic reflections, shadows, lighting, saturation, contrast, skybox, sun, clouds, rain and so on so forth, something needs to take a hit and unfortunately that's slight hits to graphical fidelity.

Now on the next hardware, there's one of two scenarios:

1. The game will become even more dynamic with probably a 24 hour day to night and back to day cycle, with more weather types, effects and more conditions in general with minor improvements to graphical fidelity.

2. The game stays with its current level of dynamic options but the graphics improve considerably.

Personally, I would prefer option one and with how the franchise has progressed since Forza Motorsport 5, that's probably the option they'll choose and I personally think it's the correct option because the graphics are good enough already and aren't as important as content, features or physics.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#66 Posted : Friday, November 22, 2019 11:03:11 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
That's what I've been trying to say all-along. In any view aside from the first person views, the game has camera artefact effects, as it should because it's through a camera. You can see lens flair, dirt and particles on the lens itself and probably over-exposure of the tail lights which most cameras do.

** Fair enough - but I would have preferred to see colors in the game, especially tail lights, the way the human eye sees them, as opposed to a camera lens. Camera lens do overexpose tail light color and makes them appear pink, orange, yellow - all kinds of funny shades. No stranger to that.

Yes Forza does need to tweak its lighting model slightly, though the game still looks good enough imo. There needs to be more of a sparkle effect instead of a bloom and glow effect on paint in particular and on lights and there needs to be a general reduction in bloom and exposure but these are small tweaks.

** Oh I never knocked on the game once - I love the 'dramatic' look of the game, makes it very immersive and enjoyable to play. I do agree that the paint sparkle effect has taken a hit; it was far more convincing in FM6 and 5. The bloom can be over the top during the day, but ironically, the headlights and tail lights never appear to have the right level of bloom and glow at night - in fact, they look brighter during the day. Odd design choice - or perhaps an after effect of the compromises they made to keep the action at 60fps locked. I still wish they had spent more time tweaking the bloom and exposure for both day and night. Again, it looks really good in FM6, at least to my naked eye.

Comparing Forza Motorsport 5 and 6 to 7 isn't fair. They're all pre-rendered, pre-baked, not dynmaic weather systems or no weather systems at all. Of course they're going to look better on current hardware. When you introduce weather systems and effects such as dynamic reflections, shadows, lighting, saturation, contrast, skybox, sun, clouds, rain and so on so forth, something needs to take a hit and unfortunately that's slight hits to graphical fidelity.

** Fair enough - no further comment! :)

Now on the next hardware, there's one of two scenarios:

1. The game will become even more dynamic with probably a 24 hour day to night and back to day cycle, with more weather types, effects and more conditions in general with minor improvements to graphical fidelity.

2. The game stays with its current level of dynamic options but the graphics improve considerably.

Personally, I would prefer option one and with how the franchise has progressed since Forza Motorsport 5, that's probably the option they'll choose and I personally think it's the correct option because the graphics are good enough already and aren't as important as content, features or physics.

** I wouldn't mind either option TBH, although opt. one seems sweeter! I would, however, want them to focus much, much more on car sound character and nuanced physics modeling for each car. It's going to be tough - sure - but is it impossible? Not by any means, not with their budget.


Thanks for your well-explained and rational comments - I always enjoy reading them, mate - your feedback adds a lot of weight to posts. My comments in double asterisks (**).
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