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Rank: C-Class Racing License
#126 Posted : Monday, June 10, 2019 1:54:15 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: V12 SprungBoss Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: turtleCZ Go to Quoted Post

Wow, so what do you think it is? Some random track time (sometimes better, sometimes worse)? Or random "cheating" power added?

And if it's player based why it was so hard? How the game knew it.


Just pure cheating, AI can hit times that humans cant do or do something really funny like driving motorway 430km/h with Ariel Nomad. And i would guess that game tracks how well we race and fine tune difficulty base of that.

Does this occur only on unbeatable?

Because for all the races I have done which is close to 1000 I have only encountered two occasions which felt weird that way. Both with B class Rally car which left me wondering how Drivatars that passed me could have both, acceleration and top speed for PI. Thought they could have either attribute but not both. I can't remember if these happened during some Weekly playlist championship or in general way, but I'm sure it wasn't Trial (Unbeatable). I'm pretty sure difficulty was Expert.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#127 Posted : Monday, June 10, 2019 2:12:07 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Tried BabySeal363's Mountain Foot Rally Circuit.

Pretty freaking good in comparison for many that are out there.

These words make me very happy, especially considering that I'm still new at this Blueprint thing.

Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Drivatars have issues on some checkpoints.

I cannot answer for what the Drivatars can or cannot do. When I'm drawing a course I can't do anything beyond drive patiently and set up the checkpoints, hoping humans and AIs alike will stick to the course, I don't get to instruct them any further. Even on Unbeatable difficulty and in courses made by the developers, Drivatars can and will make fatal mistakes.

Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
I noticed it was going uphill right between the gate, then reset itself and tried the section again, and again.

I noticed this too, and I have no idea why would Drivatars do this, it happens in the higher classes too.

Fixing any such issues is beyond the scope what the Blueprint editor lets you do.

Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
I encourage anyone curious about racing history to try it out and this circuit offers so much variety that I think anyone can figure out why that car is such a legend after trying it even just once.

Thank you for the very detailed post. It could be said that, if there is a form of car culture my heart is closest to, it's offroading, so naturally I would seek the best spot to recreate such experiences.

The mountain called, I answered.

Edited by user Monday, June 10, 2019 2:15:09 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#128 Posted : Monday, June 10, 2019 2:46:01 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: BabySeal363 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Tried BabySeal363's Mountain Foot Rally Circuit.

Pretty freaking good in comparison for many that are out there.

These words make me very happy, especially considering that I'm still new at this Blueprint thing.

Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Drivatars have issues on some checkpoints.

I cannot answer for what the Drivatars can or cannot do. When I'm drawing a course I can't do anything beyond drive patiently and set up the checkpoints, hoping humans and AIs alike will stick to the course, I don't get to instruct them any further. Even on Unbeatable difficulty and in courses made by the developers, Drivatars can and will make fatal mistakes.

Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
I noticed it was going uphill right between the gate, then reset itself and tried the section again, and again.

I noticed this too, and I have no idea why would Drivatars do this, it happens in the higher classes too.

Fixing any such issues is beyond the scope what the Blueprint editor lets you do.

Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
I encourage anyone curious about racing history to try it out and this circuit offers so much variety that I think anyone can figure out why that car is such a legend after trying it even just once.

Thank you for the very detailed post. It could be said that, if there is a form of car culture my heart is closest to, it's offroading, so naturally I would seek the best spot to recreate such experiences.

The mountain called, I answered.

Hey no problems! I put those notes under General Interest exactly because there appears to be a lot of things where route creators (or Blue printers so to say) simply don't have direct way to influence. So by studying Drivatar behaviour and how it interacts with Custom routes I hope that people checking this topic may find work arounds for route creators and share them. Who knows maybe I hope one day we might get high speed Road Racing events which takes better use of FH4 environment and Drivatar AI than perhaps some of the default routes. I like Dirt Racing a lot too.

Really great that you went through the effort to make these races available to so many Divisions, Anything Goes division sometimes puts player against subpar Drivatar lineups so that was really great. Anything Goes is important too because it makes possible to race with Alfa Romeo GTA and '73 Porsche 911 Carrera. Both have are part of racing history and it was actually earlier 911S models which Lancia Fulvia's were racing back in the day. Can't have that race, but can have at least this. :-) Happy blueprinting!
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#129 Posted : Monday, June 10, 2019 3:03:03 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post

Does this occur only on unbeatable?

Because for all the races I have done which is close to 1000 I have only encountered two occasions which felt weird that way. Both with B class Rally car which left me wondering how Drivatars that passed me could have both, acceleration and top speed for PI. Thought they could have either attribute but not both. I can't remember if these happened during some Weekly playlist championship or in general way, but I'm sure it wasn't Trial (Unbeatable). I'm pretty sure difficulty was Expert.


I have few times see this on lower difficulty also, one time was weekly event with B700 buggys, if AI was using Maverick that was impossible to win i remember how AI driver in last race was only few second slower than i am if i use A800 SUV. And while in that race no matter how mutch faster i was able to drive that one AI driver was allways multiple seconds faster.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#130 Posted : Tuesday, June 11, 2019 11:02:27 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: V12 SprungBoss Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post

Does this occur only on unbeatable?

Because for all the races I have done which is close to 1000 I have only encountered two occasions which felt weird that way. Both with B class Rally car which left me wondering how Drivatars that passed me could have both, acceleration and top speed for PI. Thought they could have either attribute but not both. I can't remember if these happened during some Weekly playlist championship or in general way, but I'm sure it wasn't Trial (Unbeatable). I'm pretty sure difficulty was Expert.


I have few times see this on lower difficulty also, one time was weekly event with B700 buggys, if AI was using Maverick that was impossible to win i remember how AI driver in last race was only few second slower than i am if i use A800 SUV. And while in that race no matter how mutch faster i was able to drive that one AI driver was allways multiple seconds faster.


I see. I have read that Drivatars on Maverick were bugged, don't recall the details but they are or were (if patched) unwinnable at least on some events.


@BabySeal363 & General
Did some more racing on your Mountain Foot Rally circuit.

Drivatars not using optimal racing line before tunnel even racing line is pretty close to optimal, I think it may be because of racing line before. Which leans to the right uphill. However that is practically useful line on some cars.

Higher class cars getting stuck (DNF) happened to me today during A class race. In other race I saw leading Drivatar totally losing it and sliding out from the track, bends before road goes under the train bridge, missing checkpoint and resetting. It was raining, did finish though. I don't recall for sure if it was raining or not in a race where two Drivatars got in DNF situation.

Still like these a lot. Got lap of 4.41,014 on stock Renault 5 Turbo, not yet under 4:40 but getting there.


One more thing. On coming Weekly playlist there's Weekly Forzathon task for doing 3 Dirt Races on Porsche. So here's a chance to support your local Custom Blue Printer. Chance to take your 911, 914 (if you have it) or actually any Porsche to BabySeals's Mountain Foot Rally instead of grinding those old boring routes, I know I sure will. And if you do, remember to like!
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#131 Posted : Tuesday, June 11, 2019 12:25:10 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Higher class cars getting stuck (DNF) happened to me today during A class race.

I think we have confirmation that that bug happens in any class. I'm not entirely sure if rain matters.

Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
One more thing. On coming Weekly playlist there's Weekly Forzathon task for doing 3 Dirt Races on Porsche. So here's a chance to support your local Custom Blue Printer. Chance to take your 911, 914 (if you have it) or actually any Porsche to BabySeals's Mountain Foot Rally instead of grinding those old boring routes, I know I sure will. And if you do, remember to like!

For those not in the know, he's talking about this:







You can play the Rally Monsters event with the 1985 Porsche #186 959 Prodrive, or you can take whichever Porsche you have and play the Anything Goes one. Just remember your AWD, rally suspension and rally tires.

Enjoy your #Forzathon, and the new FIAT Dino!

Edited by user Tuesday, June 11, 2019 1:31:40 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#132 Posted : Wednesday, June 12, 2019 2:01:32 AM(UTC)
I will join you soon. Currently I don't race at all and don't have new data. AI topic is very interesting for me and I want to how it works.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#133 Posted : Wednesday, June 12, 2019 11:34:16 AM(UTC)
PSA: for those creating custom races and who are interested about Drivatar behaviour

Weather conditions has influence to Drivatar behaviour

I did some test races today on Tarn Hows Scrambe default, which happens under sunny conditions. Then I made a Blueprint to same track with light rain.

Driving aids off except for Rewind and Braking Line.
Drivatar Difficulty: Pro
Car: 1985 Porsche #186 959 Prodrive Stock
Drivatars: Drivatar line up remained the same in races under sunny and light rain conditions.


Results:

Under dry conditions for about 5-6 races didn't noticed anything unusual in Drivatar behaviour. In different races my laps best lap times varied between 1:03,080 to 1:02,012.

Under light rain I did 5-6 races and things started to happen. I was lapping times between 1:03,130 and 1:02,269.

- In two races there were Drivatar driving Ford Capri FE which DNF. I saw perhaps said Capri FE flipped on it's roof in one of these races while lapping it.
- There was one race where one Drivatar, again Capri FE had the best lap of 1:01,129 (!) but time 3:51,999 (second last Drivatar having time of 3:31,448). I saw again Drivatar Capri flipped on it's roof in this race while lapping it.
- On one race I saw Drivatar taking turn on two wheels with Renault 5 Turbo FE.

Drivatar behaviour resulting DNF or some other major difference compared to races under sunny conditions happened in 3 races out of 5-6.

Conclusion from sample: Weather conditions has influence to Drivatar behaviour


Thoughts:

Tarn Hows Scramble is fairly easy circuit. Route creators / Custom Route Blueprinters should be perhaps aware of this regarding tight loops on Off-Road or Dirt Racing categories. According to my own experience and results, I didn't find light rain having impact for my performance and most Drivatars lap times at least appear to be the same, however I haven't yet looked if there's difference in overall time. It's difficult to tell much from Drivatars best lap times because of speed up game uses after player finishes.

It looks like there's however something in weather settings which causes _some_ Drivatar vehicles to behave differently in the game world than under sunny conditions. May guess is that this may be intentional for dramatic purposes and I'm fine with it even if it's just a psychological effect giving impression of wet conditions being hazardous. However I don't think situations where Drivatar can't recover leading to all practical purposes DNF is intended. Speculation, this may be something to do in a way car models physics are modeled, no other than Ford Capri ended in DNF state in this test.

While Custom Route creators / Blue printers are good to be aware of this, no this isn't major concern for them. Everything is still awesome. This also applies to BabySeal363 circuit which sparked this little investigation. ;-)


I took some screenshots but I don't know how exactly I get them from my activity feed to some place I could post them here. I don't use OneCloud. On Xbox there appears to be option to email them, so I thought I email them to myself and find some hosting service but I didn't get any options to input recipient email address. Or is there simpler way to post screenshots here?
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#134 Posted : Wednesday, June 12, 2019 12:36:03 PM(UTC)
If it's like Forza Motorsport, there should be certain AI drivers that are skilled in driving on wet tracks and others that aren't, perhaps Horizon's Drivatars in general aren't supposed to be particularly skilled... or maybe they simply weren't programmed to adjust their behavior according to the weather, which is a new feature in Horizon.

But I did say Drivatars making mistakes is business as usual, and it's supposed to be considered as a feature and not a defect. They are meant to give players second chances.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#135 Posted : Wednesday, June 12, 2019 2:14:20 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: BabySeal363 Go to Quoted Post
If it's like Forza Motorsport, there should be certain AI drivers that are skilled in driving on wet tracks and others that aren't, perhaps Horizon's Drivatars in general aren't supposed to be particularly skilled... or maybe they simply weren't programmed to adjust their behavior according to the weather, which is a new feature in Horizon.

There is discussion with examples and speculation about limits of Drivatar abilities earlier in this topic.

Test was very conclusive that effects of light rain are only visual in FH4 at least on gravel and there's also short tarmac section on circuit I used. I think my lap times were also very conclusive regarding that. No any practical difference compared to sunny weather. Heavy rain may be different matter.

The mysterious variable is that for some reason some (not every) Drivatars start to behave like light rain would have some practical effect to grip. This is fine from dramatic viewpoint, but when they can end in state where they can't get even single lap done, or get stuck on circuit causing them to Did Not Finish a race, that is a bug.

Originally Posted by: BabySeal363 Go to Quoted Post

But I did say Drivatars making mistakes is business as usual, and it's supposed to be considered as a feature and not a defect. They are meant to give players second chances.

It is indeed and perfect Drivatars simply wouldn't be fun. There are however two things to consider:
1. Custom Route Blueprinters shouldn't be held responsible for bugs in game.
2. It's debatable if Drivatar DNF happening for whatever reason (error recovery loop?) is giving a player a too much crutch. It's also questionable if that also triggers some kind of super fast rubber band mode, like Drivatar 1:01 lap time in my previous post.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#136 Posted : Wednesday, June 12, 2019 5:06:58 PM(UTC)
I have to brag.

I have finally completed my collection of gloves, I now own every glove in FH4.
I didn't even notice, but yesterday i was looking at clothing for the first time on months and I realized I have completed 100% of that portion of the game!!

Impressive huh?

Rank: Driver's Permit
#137 Posted : Wednesday, June 12, 2019 5:29:40 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Evil Brain Go to Quoted Post
I have to brag.

I have finally completed my collection of gloves, I now own every glove in FH4.
I didn't even notice, but yesterday i was looking at clothing for the first time on months and I realized I have completed 100% of that portion of the game!!

Impressive huh?


nice
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#138 Posted : Saturday, June 15, 2019 1:11:40 PM(UTC)
I have the edition with all the bells and whistles and went to Legoland to see what's it's about. For certain reasons I put this here: https://www.trueachievem...ievements?gamerid=726901

Didn't like it. There are some new things like doing two PR-stunts in a row in certain time, more hidden objects to find with a twist, lot's of breaking stuff and point to point races with sort of free roam but practically you get the best time if you follow the roads. LEGO cars are nothing to write home about, sort of distractions. Other than that it's mostly doing daily Forzathon challenges except these aren't daily and you unlock LEGO bricks by doing them along other task. There's no building anything. When you have certain amount of bricks LEGO helicopter comes and drops construct to your house location.

Map is quite small and there isn't much verticality. Yet it's some change with it's deserts and raceway. If it weren't for grinding LEGO tasks it would be quite short. I Liked some races though.

While I was grinding through tasks I often came to think what LEGO actually contributes. Certain things could fit right in with Horizon festival universe by making spoof of conspiracy theorists etc. Breaking different objects, well it got old at the point where I needed to smash 200 tables.

Worst of is sort of IRL aspect. Expansion is what it is, there is no way around it. Can't say God, can't say die because Mr. LEGO says so. It's corporate dystopia in that plastic smile brought right in my fantasy festival. Can't help but think how head of Xbox gaming thought it was a good idea to bundle Xbox One X with Fallout 76, result being that bundle setting discount that put that bundle for lowest ever Xbox One X was sold.

There whole different game going on that what we play on our consoles. Horizon series is very well established franchise that sells X Box hardware and Games as Service Platform. It's awfully risky game to risk this sort of gem to short term profit and stepping stone for someone folks career advancement, especially if they a Trojan Horse slip in a process.

Why can't Microsoft game studios work like some of their other departments. There is very enjoyable driving physics model in FH4 and I for one wondered what is missing with the seasons. It's highly variable road conditions where there is dry, wet, snowy and icy surface all over making something simple like tyre selection actually interesting. This expansion could had made a fine platform for testing that. But no it's LEGO's, Everything Is Awesome, everything is actually so hyper that it makes me think if they sell drugs too.

Edited by user Saturday, June 15, 2019 1:14:52 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#139 Posted : Sunday, June 16, 2019 11:12:08 AM(UTC)
Having completed all the Brick Challenges in Lego Valley - highlighted by stumbling across the Barn Find without even trying, as I was just doing one of the "start in X, go to Y" kind of challenges and had to do it again (LOL), once I came back to Great Britain I decided the first thing I'd do is making another Dirt track. The events are called Bamburgh - Astmoor Rally Trail, it's your traditional point-to-point rally race.







It's not a circuit this time, and a shorter course, I think times should be around 2'40'' for S2 class to 3'35'' for B class. There's a kind of nostalgic and "back to basics" quality to this track that I can't put into words very easily, it reminds me of all the rally games I played in the past with all the big jumps, the long corners, the loud engines... I really hope it can give you a similar experience.

Edited by user Sunday, June 16, 2019 11:13:38 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#140 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2019 12:14:39 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: BabySeal363 Go to Quoted Post
Having completed all the Brick Challenges in Lego Valley - highlighted by stumbling across the Barn Find without even trying, as I was just doing one of the "start in X, go to Y" kind of challenges and had to do it again (LOL), once I came back to Great Britain I decided the first thing I'd do is making another Dirt track. The events are called Bamburgh - Astmoor Rally Trail, it's your traditional point-to-point rally race.

It's not a circuit this time, and a shorter course, I think times should be around 2'40'' for S2 class to 3'35'' for B class. There's a kind of nostalgic and "back to basics" quality to this track that I can't put into words very easily, it reminds me of all the rally games I played in the past with all the big jumps, the long corners, the loud engines... I really hope it can give you a similar experience.

This is a mix of gravel sections of Horizon's Moorhead Rally and Astmoor Rally trails, and the mix is quite good!

I actually didn't try this on higher class cars. Did one test run with stock Audi B class Retro Rally division which is fast enough to get under 3:30 time easily.

I found this mix to be enormously great on stock D and C class cars. Some close to middle tier stock C-Class cars can race this in about 3:34 - 3:36 and upper C-class Retro Rally stocks in about 3:33 - 3:34 for my experience. I believe that even faster races are possible though on stock cars.

While not perhaps intended, what I really liked this how it makes use of environment in a different way compared to Horizon trails. No tarmac except on starting strip, variety of bends, uphill and downhill. Not that many straight sections where top speed matters a lot. There is quite a lot of things to pay attention to even on lower class races. Design isn't boring or too demanding either.

I was following, perhaps it was PG's Mixer live stream regarding Series 7, a while ago anyway. There was someone in chat asking for class C lobbies. Someone from the developers team answered that C-class just doesn't appear that popular according to their statistics from the game and added that it can be considered but there needs to be compelling reason for that to happen. I thought that's actually very reasonable and super cars are big part of Horizon's image. I just commented that there are lot of great cars in C-class.

While based on what I see people driving around it's perhaps difficult to see C-class getting popular enough for adding new lobby to the MP part of game, I left pondering that question and came to conclusion that the important question actually is why certain classes and divisions aren't popular? One thing might be that Festival side of FH4 is ignoring them and other reason I can think is that many default circuits and trails which are fine while getting used to the game, just feel off for somethings. For example what was used in this mix, Moorhead Rally trail is pretty fast for it's length but it's not very suitable for really lower end of D- or perhaps even C-class simply because it has too much tarmac and straights. Astmoor is better but this version which doesn't feature quite straight tarmac section in the end is even better for lower classes. That isn't to say this short mix of trails isn't fun on higher classes. Stock Audi was quite a beast on this.

I hope word of this trail would reach not only Custom route blueprinters but also developers and that they tried this trail, because this is actually better custom route than what I have seen on weekly playlist and something from developers themselves I dug up Creative Hub.


Random Drivatar observations.

I raced this on Pro and Unbeatable. Most of the time Drivatars weren't a challenge. While better than on many custom routes I have seen, Drivatars are hampered at least on two wide bends where they go off from the racing line which appears to be properly placed. It looked almost like they were regardless of class and speed trying to make either kind of sliding turn or hand brake turn.

There were few of races where one or two and once three Drivatars got stuck at 92%. In one B-class race I did four Drivatars got stuck at 92%.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#141 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2019 12:35:04 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
This is a mix of gravel sections of Horizon's Moorhead Rally and Astmoor Rally trails, and the mix is quite good!

Yes, as you noticed I wanted to get rid of the long paved straights and leave the good bits. It is a simple design, as the gravel parts are continuous with each other. Now they're no longer separate!

Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Some close to middle tier stock C-Class cars can race this in about 3:34 - 3:36 and upper C-class Retro Rally stocks in about 3:33 - 3:34 for my experience. I believe that even faster races are possible though on stock cars.

I may indeed have underestimated them.

Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
why certain classes and divisions aren't popular?

People dream of driving the fastest hypercars, not hatchbacks they could afford, or cars from the past they didn't even know existed. When they do want to play "slower" cars they upgrade them at least to B class anyway. I must admit I myself am guilty of this, as I play C or D classes very infrequently.

Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Drivatars are hampered at least on two wide bends where they go off from the racing line which appears to be properly placed.

From what I've seen I think it's worse in S2, they brake way too late.

Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
this is actually better custom route than what I have seen on weekly playlist and something from developers themselves I dug up Creative Hub.

Thank you for the kind words and all the detailed testing as usual.

Edited by user Tuesday, June 18, 2019 12:40:45 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#142 Posted : Wednesday, June 19, 2019 2:52:27 PM(UTC)
I have been going trough some Horizon and Custom routes during past couple of days.

I really liked what one Developer Championship custom circuit during fall playlist. It was made by dev whom nickname in game is Pickerchu, circuit in question is Gotta Go Fast and available via Creative Hub tab for everyone to race outside weekly event.

I did weekly event with '17 Nissan GT-R stock on Pro but when I tried the circuit again as stand alone I picked '14 Porsche 911 Turbo S stock, which I read somewhere was quite a challenge to be use and win on this. For me it was at least on Pro. I got best lap times quite close to leading Drivatars but didn't managed to win with yet and perhaps ever because '14 Porsche 911 Turbo S appears to be really tricky to drive as stock compared to many others in it's class despite it being AWD. I gave this only couple of tries but it was a bit interesting to see Drivatar with Acura NSX way down in result screen that had pulled 3 seconds faster lap than best Drivatars and myself. I guess I'm finally starting to see the point of tuning in single player, other than hitching the rating a bit upwards so races aren't always against other '82 Porsche 911's and Lamborghini Jalpa's. Anyway, I think I'm going to get back to that circuit with whatever vehicle anyway.

Picked up another custom route Blueprint from dev Pickerchu, rally trail I recall was event in the past. That trail wasn't much to write home about.

But today I picked yet another custom route Blueprint from the same dev called Glen Fury Scramble. It's a dirt trail event for Retro Rally class. BabySeal363 Mountain Foot Rally and this route appears to be identical route selection wise and also almost identical in checkpoint placement, Mountain Foot Rally having few less checkpoints. Pickerchu's circuit had 1967 races and 1321 likes. Must admit it was
embarrassing to see that this Glen Fury Scramble is promoted by Playground Games tab in Creative Hub.

I'm not entirely sure what to think here. Whatever the case BabySeal's Mountain Foot Rally is available for all Rally Divisions and there's also Anything Goes race and it's really great that this circuit is available to race for all cars in game via those.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#143 Posted : Wednesday, June 19, 2019 10:16:15 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Whatever the case BabySeal's Mountain Foot Rally is available for all Rally Divisions and there's also Anything Goes race and it's really great that this circuit is available to race for all cars in game via those.


First of all, it is only natural that the developers would know the map inside out since before launch and have an advantage in course design. I for one try to be inclusive with the cars. Seasonal championships made or selected by the devs try to get people involved with underused car divisions and classes, but because there are over 600 unique ones now I categorically refuse to pick a division and exclude so many... As for the process through which I make my own tracks, I just drive around the map and see if I can find something worthwhile, without having the faintest idea whether similar blueprints exist, because the time I would spend looking for blueprints that happen to be similar to my vision but not similar in name would be greater than placing the checkpoints myself - I make tracks for the sake of fun, not "originality."

Again, my track my rules, so I get to choose which cars can participate, and I choose them all. Let us not forget, it's the developers that say: "When everybody plays, we all win!"

Edited by user Wednesday, June 19, 2019 10:22:03 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: R-Class Racing License
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#144 Posted : Thursday, June 20, 2019 4:35:34 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: AquaPainter168 Go to Quoted Post

I thought it was OK. The first track was identical to one that I made last week, I thought it was my track, but the check points weren't in exactly the same places.

I'm curious about the track you created. Care to post details into Open Chat thread?


It's not the first track actually, it must be the second track I tried. My track is called 'Lost Island Leap' and you leap across the middle of a traffic circle (Traffic Island in England). In the current season you go around the island, so the checkpoints aren't in the same places.

Edited by user Thursday, June 20, 2019 4:36:50 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#145 Posted : Friday, June 21, 2019 8:46:08 AM(UTC)
So today's track is a point-to-point Dirt drace in a mountain setting, and is in fact quite short. It doesn't mean it's easy. Simply put, I wanted to something a bit more experimental, something different.
The events are called Arthur's Seat Holyrood Rally Trail, and as usual for me they're available for each Rally category, plus Anything Goes for good measure.







We start with just a tiny little bit of cross country-style racing away from both tarmac and gravel, and proceed to climb the mountain along a dangerous and very, very narrow path, with only a wooden fence stopping you from falling over the edge. As you will see, the track doesn't hold back there. If you survive, the rest of the course will be much faster, with water and a pair of very tight hairpins waiting for you downhill before the finish line. Times should be around 2 minutes for B class. Let me know if the experiment was a success.

Edited by user Friday, June 21, 2019 8:49:59 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#146 Posted : Friday, June 21, 2019 11:25:26 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: AquaPainter168 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: AquaPainter168 Go to Quoted Post

I thought it was OK. The first track was identical to one that I made last week, I thought it was my track, but the check points weren't in exactly the same places.

I'm curious about the track you created. Care to post details into Open Chat thread?


It's not the first track actually, it must be the second track I tried. My track is called 'Lost Island Leap' and you leap across the middle of a traffic circle (Traffic Island in England). In the current season you go around the island, so the checkpoints aren't in the same places.



Originally Posted by: BabySeal363 Go to Quoted Post
So today's track is a point-to-point Dirt drace in a mountain setting, and is in fact quite short. It doesn't mean it's easy. Simply put, I wanted to something a bit more experimental, something different.
The events are called Arthur's Seat Holyrood Rally Trail, and as usual for me they're available for each Rally category, plus Anything Goes for good measure.

We start with just a tiny little bit of cross country-style racing away from both tarmac and gravel, and proceed to climb the mountain along a dangerous and very, very narrow path, with only a wooden fence stopping you from falling over the edge. As you will see, the track doesn't hold back there. If you survive, the rest of the course will be much faster, with water and a pair of very tight hairpins waiting for you downhill before the finish line. Times should be around 2 minutes for B class. Let me know if the experiment was a success.


Thanks! Going to try these.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#147 Posted : Monday, June 24, 2019 12:46:37 AM(UTC)
The latest track is a Cross Country, point-to-point, south to north race on the beach, simply called Beach Rally Raid. It features beautiful vistas from Castle Bamburgh, which is overseeing the entire course, to the lighthouse near the finish line, and of course the beach itself to your right. I didn't advertise this track or its events anywhere, and yet the Extreme Offroad one proved an instant success. So it's not an experiment, this stuff is tried and true!







Without the sheer amount of miles of desert to replicate the Dakar or Baja 1500, the best we can do in FH4's Great Britain is challenge your truck, buggy or SUV (or "car" in the case of my obligatory Anything Goes event) through a short but grueling series of dunes, the challenge being both going fast and not flipping your vehicle. From which angle will you attack the next dune? Left, right, middle? And what hazards hide behind it? Those are the questions that any professional offroader faces. I think Cross Country racing is at its best when the landscape is as beautiful as it is dangerous, where beauty meets beast, and only the fastest survive.

Edited by user Monday, June 24, 2019 1:17:14 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#148 Posted : Wednesday, June 26, 2019 1:09:24 PM(UTC)
Lost Island Leap by AquaPainter168

Road Race
Summer, sunny
Circuit, 3 laps
Starting location: Glen Rannoch ???
Eligible Cars: Collector's Selection

Ain't doing a super long review here since I tried this with only few cars from C- and A-class and didn't do many races. All races I did were with cars in their stock form on Pro difficulty, all assists except Braking line and Rewind off.

It was fun and for a lengthy circuit it's design is surprisingly good for lower class cars like '56 Jaguar D-Type and '57 Ferrari 250 California. I got most Forza pleasure from this circuit with A class '57 Ferrari 250 Testa Rossa.

I got my first impressions with Jaguar D-Type and it felt quite good. D-Type is redlining on straights but it isn't much a hinderance. Despite having done few Classic Races division races with D-Type I forgot how poor it's braking is and that got me few times. I used Rewind couple of times but then thought let's see this through and just kept racing. My impression about circuit was very good. I liked the scenery and design decisions, like which routes were used, there's even a steep downhill enough to jump, variety of bends. During race we go from fields to woods and there is suburban and a bit of city too, where we go (literally) through traffic island and head back to starting point for next lap.

There are however some issues. I noticed this during my first race, that despite falling to last position after messing up one of 90 degrees turn, I was catching up pretty quickly. I even managed to win the race. My best lap with Jaguar D-Type was 4:17,984 and overall time 13:26,116. Overall time is quite telling here.

There are two things at play in here. First is how Drivatar AI is programmed. It appears to slow down in situations like this even on Pro difficulty. Second issue I noticed while making catching up is that leading Drivatars appeared to slow down a bit in short section going off road and through traffic island. This may not be an issue if Drivatars aren't visible to player when they pass that section.

I however enjoyed how circuit worked out and took other car from the '50's to it, Ferrari 250 California. I actually bought it just for this race. Ferrari turned out to be much better behaving than Jaguar and even difference in PI isn't much (C 513 - C 540) they are really different kind of experiences. One more plus for the circuit comes from the fact that it's design really brings out how different these cars are. For my joy this was actually far more a race than first race. I was racing against other 250 California's and slightly upgraded (C 529) Jaguar D-Types. It was great to see that Drivatars tried with variable success to take advantage of Jag's acceleration making them difficult to catch at times but I noticed also they spun out of control couple of times. I noticed that there's another location, final turn in city area where I gained a lot, traffic island was also section where I gained but I didn't had visual so it might be slowing down to following bends too (which actually can be taken on pretty much flat out on lower class cars).

My times with Ferrari 250 California were 4:11,994 for the best lap and 12:58,220 overall. Best Drivatar was tuned Jag D-Type with best lap of 4:17,341 and time: 13:02,125. Best lap was almost exactly the same time I got with stock D-Type.

While there were a quite good selection where to choose from I still wanted to stay on '50s vehicle so took Ferrari 250 Testa Rossa (A 704) to one more race. Again strengths of visual things and other variety of circuit made it good experience, but I was racing against the clock rather than Drivatars. I noticed again that final turn in city area towards traffic island was where Drivatars had difficulties. I didn't exactly see what's the problem there, just that they were very slow getting around that and accelerating out via mini-map. My times were 3:46,193 for best lap and 11:39,950 overall - made one major mistake and few smaller during race. Best Drivatars were Alfa-Romeos. TZ2 (B 695) 3:49,313 and 11:53,831 for one coming second interestingly 33S (A 716) 3:51,716 and 11:53,981.

For something more modern I guess Lotus Elise GT1 might be very fun on this circuit. However this would work IMO very well for older racers from the '20 and '30s like Auto Union Type D, Bugatti Type 35 C, Alfa Romeo P3, Bentley 4-1/2 Liter and Ferrari 166MM Barchetta to mention few. Circuit has the visuals and the tricks for that, only obvious immersion breaking things being one bus stop on circuit and traffic island, to keep player engaged.

There are couple of places where driving line is off, but those alone don't for me at least tell why Drivatars underperform on this circuit overall. That behaviour is typical for custom routes and I have seen much worse.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#149 Posted : Friday, June 28, 2019 12:59:08 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: BabySeal363 Go to Quoted Post
So today's track is a point-to-point Dirt drace in a mountain setting, and is in fact quite short. It doesn't mean it's easy. Simply put, I wanted to something a bit more experimental, something different.
The events are called Arthur's Seat Holyrood Rally Trail, and as usual for me they're available for each Rally category, plus Anything Goes for good measure.


We start with just a tiny little bit of cross country-style racing away from both tarmac and gravel, and proceed to climb the mountain along a dangerous and very, very narrow path, with only a wooden fence stopping you from falling over the edge. As you will see, the track doesn't hold back there. If you survive, the rest of the course will be much faster, with water and a pair of very tight hairpins waiting for you downhill before the finish line. Times should be around 2 minutes for B class. Let me know if the experiment was a success.

Are you sure you shared all Blueprints from this. Only one for Classic Rally division came up when I searched.

Anyway, did few races on this and this is pure murder for lower class cars without snow tyres (which is actually good thing). My best time on this with stock cars was with D-class Lancia Fulvia 2:30,100 on Pro. Gotta try this with snow tyres too. Would love to try to take AWD on this.

There is one issue with this route though but it's pretty big one. First turn is practically a hairpin and on higher difficulties starting row moves further towards the back and going to that first turn where lower class cars, especially Drivatar cars have real struggle making it to second check point and tend to slide backwards causes one terrible clutter there where player is struggling himself trying to get up that hill.

Factors I think here:
1 Using snow tyres may remove most of the grip issue (obviously)
2 Using AWD cars stock may remove most of grip issue
3 Hair pin comes very close from the start so Drivatars come very close to each other and in more or less parallel to each other in turn and continue to do so towards second checkpoint, this creates difficult situations for player because:
3.1 unpredictable Drivatar behaviour
3.2 Lack of sense where other Drivatars are relative to player car in first person perspective may result collisions that are very difficult to avoid resulting:
4 Luck comes very important factor getting good time on this
5 Struggle towards second checkpoint also creates issue where Drivatars may get stuck between checkpoint 2 and 3. In one race I passed seven of them in one race in that section.

First checkpoint is quite wide which helps a bit and I guess you made it so because you were anticipating the problem. However on lower class cars at least it's not enough. I can't say anything decisive regarding B+ class but if route made a little detour towards the park which would allow Drivatar pack to scatter a bit and have a bit lower angle to first turn resulting also a bit higher speed towards second and third checkpoint uphill.

Despite first couple of checkpoints this is actually pretty great on lower tier cars. Has the feel of old real rally routes which could be quite insane on todays standards. I really liked the section going at the side of the mountain, gives pretty good sense of speed and there's real need to think of racing line since there are boulders and bumps which can throw car around. Great! Will get back on this.


Originally Posted by: BabySeal363 Go to Quoted Post
The latest track is a Cross Country, point-to-point, south to north race on the beach, simply called Beach Rally Raid. It features beautiful vistas from Castle Bamburgh, which is overseeing the entire course, to the lighthouse near the finish line, and of course the beach itself to your right. I didn't advertise this track or its events anywhere, and yet the Extreme Offroad one proved an instant success. So it's not an experiment, this stuff is tried and true!

Without the sheer amount of miles of desert to replicate the Dakar or Baja 1500, the best we can do in FH4's Great Britain is challenge your truck, buggy or SUV (or "car" in the case of my obligatory Anything Goes event) through a short but grueling series of dunes, the challenge being both going fast and not flipping your vehicle. From which angle will you attack the next dune? Left, right, middle? And what hazards hide behind it? Those are the questions that any professional offroader faces. I think Cross Country racing is at its best when the landscape is as beautiful as it is dangerous, where beauty meets beast, and only the fastest survive.

Will check this out.


I posted this observation to Weekly Event topic already but repost here regarding Drivatar behaviour on custom routes:

Quote:
]Weekly Developer Routes Championship. Won them all with stock Mercedes AMG G 65 but couldn't but notice that on two races Drivatars were hindered by narrow checkpoints. At least Drivatars using Chevrolet ZR2 and Ford Raptor '11 had a bit better acceleration and could pull lead on some sections but after passing them they couldn't challenge anymore because of narrow gates wouldn't allow them to try passing. Last one I did "Tour of Cotswolds" was the best, even it had lot of tarmac. Last jump messed Drivatars up, like they were coming too fast and jumped too far to efficiently brake to checkpoint gate on right turn. Didn't really saw it tough, but that's how it looked on minimap.


I have wondered it quite often if narrow checkpoints can actually hinder Drivatars and now I'm quite sure it does. Drivatar on second place was tailing me very close but couldn't use advantages it vehicle had in two races with narrow checkpoints. One with wide checkpoints was actually race where I needed to maintain good speed even after getting to first position. Easily repeatable for everyone to experiment by just doing championship again.


I'm not entirely sure how I feel about Horizon 4 since the LEGO expansion but must share this since there were discussion about favourite Forza moments earlier. Getting first on all 4 races on this weeks trial, that felt awesome! All respect towards players who manage achieve more in the game but for me with my skill, must enjoy victories I can get. :-)

Edited by user Friday, July 5, 2019 11:04:43 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#150 Posted : Friday, June 28, 2019 8:47:01 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Has the feel of old real rally routes which could be quite insane on todays standards. I really liked the section going at the side of the mountain, gives pretty good sense of speed and there's real need to think of racing line since there are boulders and bumps which can throw car around. Great!


This is what I was trying to do with this experimental course, however...

Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Drivatar cars have real struggle making it to second check point and tend to slide backwards causes one terrible clutter there where player is struggling himself trying to get up that hill.


...a huge pile-up at the very beginning is definitely something I need to avoid.

I wish there was a time attack or Rivals-like mode where the player can drive on a custom track alone, and I didn't have to worry about what Drivatars can or cannot do. Besides, it's how the vast majority of rallying works.

Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Are you sure you shared all Blueprints from this. Only one for Classic Rally division came up when I searched.


Strange. I'll look into that.

EDIT: Nope, I type Arthur's Seat Holyrood Rally Trail in Title and BabySeal363 in Creator and all 5 events show up. Very strange indeed. If the problem shows up again, I'd like you to show me what you type. Try just typing Holyrood Rally in Title and again my gamertag.

Edited by user Sunday, June 30, 2019 6:30:36 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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