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Rank: Driver's Permit
#1226 Posted : Tuesday, October 29, 2019 11:12:57 PM(UTC)
What is the reward to complete the season to 100% and not up to 80%?
Rank: Racing Permit
#1227 Posted : Tuesday, October 29, 2019 11:15:42 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Chanzey Go to Quoted Post
I have to play every day each month in order to get the seasonal car


Once a week, actually

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#1228 Posted : Wednesday, October 30, 2019 2:43:40 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
I didn't suggest removing online play. I suggested making the same rewards available to all players, whether they play offline or online.

I already told you what constitutes compromised game design: you simply look at PG's previously stated vision of "play how you want" and ask if a feature adheres to that vision or not. PG abandoned their previous guiding principle; that's what compromised the design.

+1

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#1229 Posted : Wednesday, October 30, 2019 7:13:06 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
I didn't suggest removing online play. I suggested making the same rewards available to all players, whether they play offline or online.

In that case, just wait. Rewards that are made available to online players will eventually be made available to offline players. Hence, why I italicized "early" in "early access" in my response to you. Example: Apollo Intenza Emozione was initially offered in Series 9 spring Trial and later made available (twice) in the Forzathon Shop.

That's an assumption on your part. Counter-example: the 917 LH, which is back this season, but only as an 80% reward, when 80% is unattainable offline. Further, the Bone Shaker, which was brought back as a PGG reward.

If you have a quote from PG confirming that all cars available to online players will eventually be made available to offline players, please share it. Otherwise, you're merely speculating.

Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
We never discussed "Forzathon Points" in any part of our discussion; so there could be no way for me to misstate your argument.

Post #1205, earlier on page 49.

Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Your application of the term "compromised game design" is based on an interpretation that allows you to argue for an overhaul of the game so that it meets your preference to not have to participate in certain activities that were meant to enhance a player's experience with, exploration of, and involvement with the game. What you're advocating would effectively remove an entire method of earning rewards; thereby negatively impacting the "play as you want" vision statement.

What I'm advocating would restore the previous system where people accrued rewards by playing how they want. I repeat: I am not suggesting that people who play online should be required to play offline to get rewards. I am suggesting that both offline and online play should reward FP, which would be used to purchase end-game rewards that are currently withheld for online activities only.
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
And why on earth would you grind credits for a VW I.D. R in the Auction House? Just wait for it to become available again as an offline Playlist event.

Because, as discussed above, there is zero guarantee that it will be made available to offline players. Again, if you have evidence otherwise, feel free to share, but a generic "they'll be back again in one way or another" is not a guarantee of availability to offline players.
Rank: Racing Legend
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#1230 Posted : Wednesday, October 30, 2019 8:10:53 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: YVETTTE Go to Quoted Post
What is the reward to complete the season to 100% and not up to 80%?


nothing...since the 80% rewards were originally the 100% rewards
but everyone got upset about so they dropped the requirement
probably why there is no reward because people would be upset about it still
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#1231 Posted : Wednesday, October 30, 2019 10:12:51 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
That's an assumption on your part. Counter-example: the 917 LH, which is back this season, but only as an 80% reward, when 80% is unattainable offline. Further, the Bone Shaker, which was brought back as a PGG reward.

If you have a quote from PG confirming that all cars available to online players will eventually be made available to offline players, please share it. Otherwise, you're merely speculating.

Fair enough, but it's also an assumption on your part that PG will never allow you access to that car as an offline player. And now you should realize that you've come to the wrong place if you think that any of us here, other than @RetroKrystal, are privy to the roadmap for offline car availability. You're just preaching to the choir. If you would like to make your thoughts known to PG, then I suggest that you Submit a Ticket on the Forza Support Site as Feedback/Suggestion. If you do that, then let me know your ticket number and I will also file a feedback/suggestion to PG on your behalf, in reference to your suggestion. That's the best that I or any other Forum member here can do for you with regard to your complaint.

Other than that, watch a minute of the following YouTube video from PG: Forza Horizon 4 โ€“ Update 13 Live Stream: Porsche 917 LH Trial. And have faith. Frankly, these people don't seem like the kind of folks that are in the business of holding a grudge against a certain portion of their customer base. (And yeah, that was an assumption. I know.)

Look, I understand where you're coming from because I was once an offline player too when I first started out with FH4. My personal belief is that any content that is made available to core game players should also be made accessible to all players at some point. My theory is that PG is prioritizing new content releases so that it doesn't have to face an onslaught of complaints from customers claiming that it is not providing them with any new content. So my thinking is that when things slow down a bit, PG will probably make available to everybody some of those items that were previously only accessible to online players. I do think that you have a valid point, but not in the context that you originally presented your argument.



Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
We never discussed "Forzathon Points" in any part of our discussion; so there could be no way for me to misstate your argument.

Post #1205, earlier on page 49.

"We" as in, you and I. I just checked "Post #1205, earlier on page 49". That was a conversation between you and @Talby71. Unless I was a part of that, which I know that I wasn't, then I think that you're really reaching here. For me to "misstate" your words, I'd first need to quote said words, which I didn't last I checked. Again, don't take my word for it -- to refresh your memory, I've posted the entirety of that conversation you had. . . with @Talby71. So here's the complete transcript of the two of you talking about "Forzathon Points" in Post #1208, earlier on page 49:
Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: talby71 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: talby71 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
So we're on page 48 of this thread, and aside from one tweak two weeks in to lower the percentage from 100 to 80, what's actually been done to address dissatisfaction? Anything that would suggest that PG is listening to feedback and making changes?


So what do YOU think needs to be done to make it even more easier than it already is
I'm guessing you just want it removed altogether


Well, yeah, usually when my end users don't like something in the software I make, the first thing they ask me to do is have the change reverted.

I've already said what they should do, numerous times: decouple the events from the rewards, using the perfectly functional currency system that shipped with the game. That way, whether you get a reward has nothing to do with whether you play the game in a specific way, only that you're willing to play and win x FP worth of events for a reward that costs x FP.


so many people wouldn't be happy with that either
will claim they need to grind to get forzathon points
others want them to be just made paid dlc again too
no matter what they do people wont be happy
people these days just want constant hand outs for doing nothing

it's really not that hard to play the game and EARN the rewards for LITTLE effort each week, other wise go to the auction house and use the pointless excessive credits earned to buy the missed cars


Not counting upcoming seasonal exclusives, there are four cars I don't own: the Chevrolet ZR2, the Ford Capri FE, the Rossion Q1, and the VW ID-R.

The next time I grind out 16M credits, I can pick up the ID-R. The Rossion is very limited in availability on the AH right now. But the Capri FE? Forget it. There's simply no way I can get it by being a better racer - no matter how fast I am, the only way to get it is to do the blueprint/painting/tuning/photography card. Kind of ridiculous to lock the cars in a driving game behind something other than driving. And there's zero inventory on the AH at any price.

As for effort? I've won every championship in all four disciplines, three-starred every story chapter (incl. Upgrade Heroes) and every PR stunt, on the main map and in both DLCs. Please tell me why, in your view, that isn't effort.

I just don't think it's that crazy to suggest that one's rewards in a driving game should be predicated on how well one drives, rather than their willingness to plug another warm body into the game's social features.




Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
What I'm advocating would restore the previous system where people accrued rewards by playing how they want. I repeat: I am not suggesting that people who play online should be required to play offline to get rewards. I am suggesting that both offline and online play should reward FP, which would be used to purchase end-game rewards that are currently withheld for online activities only.

I want to point out that I have no issue with the accessibility of rewards to online and offline players alike, because that was never the point of discussion from me. Just because I'm explaining a possible motive for something doesn't mean that I'm actually in support of it. The main issue I had with your very first comment to one of my posts was that you were essentially telling me that my online play should be taking a back seat to you being able to receive a reward. Period. Your entire premise was that the game's credibility was destroyed because of such. I provided you an argument otherwise. Still, that didn't mean that I supported the current framework; it just meant that I was able to see the developer's position on the matter and not just obstinately stare past it.

While online play may not be important to you, it most certainly is important to PG. It's their game after all. Fact. They have a right to promote it any which way that best serves their purpose. Fact. Incentives drive activity. Fact. And their analytics are probably showing them that placing incentives in online events is producing the most activity in those areas. If you want to change those numbers, then you'll need to change the user activity itself. However, accomplishing that feat will require a miracle on your part, because I doubt that you'll be able to convince online players (or even the Forum members here) to indefinitely skip the Trial and/or Seasonal Games for your cause. They'll likely just laugh in your face. And they have every right to do so because they bought this game for their enjoyment, not yours. Fact.

So again, I provided you an explanation as to why things are probably happening the way they are. I'm not PG. I'm a customer, like yourself, simply explaining what I'm observing from PG with regard to rewards in online activities. And explaining an observation is much different than supporting an observed position. There's a distinction between the two. My suggestion to you, as a gamer speaking to another gamer, was to wait and see what PG does with those cars that you're missing in your collection. Again, I'm not defending PG's position by saying that to you, I was merely offering that as a "solution" to your, currently, backlogged gaming predicament.

Now on the matter of Forzathon Points, I want to make you aware that you've just now introduced that subject as a point to our discussion -- between you and me. So I'm more than happy to switch topics here and discuss that with you. Unless @Talby71 would also like to chime-in on this subject, since I quoted him earlier.

My quick response to you is that I disagree with your suggestion. It is far, far better to earn a reward car in an activity than it is to receive a quantity of in-game currency. I will use the last game that I played as an example. I played that game for years and accumulated a significant amount of in-game currency. At one stage the game publisher introduced a second form of in-game currency that immediately devalued the first form of currency. They did that out of necessity because hackers found a way to exploit the game's credits system. This new form of currency had at least 10 times the amount of value per unit than the old one. It would be analogous to Forzathon Points to Credits. Anyhow, during the past 2 years the game publisher released a follow-up game. The problem was that they couldn't get players to move from the old game to the new game. So what they did was readjust the old game's economics so that both forms of in-game currency were so devalued that longtime players would either be pressured to shift to the new game or face a progression paywall (microtransactions).

If the in-game economics stay constant, then I have no issue with being awarded with Forzathon Points in the Playlist. However, there are three problems with being awarded in-game currency in lieu of an entire reward car: (1) We will likely not receive a value of Forzathon Points that's equivalent to a high-value car such as the Apollo I.E.; (2) PG could make an adjustment to the in-game economics where FP car prices are inflated, thereby devaluing any Forzathon Points earned and; (3) PG could simply reduce, over time, the number of Forzathon Points earned through Playlist activities.

So your suggestion of replacing entire cars with Forzathon Points could end up reducing the overall value of Playlist rewards. This is the warning that I give to you and to those who would rather play for Forzathon Points than a reward car, because I've seen firsthand how a game publisher can poison a game's economic framework pretty quickly. It is exactly for that reason why I left that other game and came to Forza.



Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
Because, as discussed above, there is zero guarantee that it will be made available to offline players. Again, if you have evidence otherwise, feel free to share, but a generic "they'll be back again in one way or another" is not a guarantee of availability to offline players.

I appreciate you taking the time to have a discussion about a matter that's important to you and bringing it to the attention of the Community. My initial contribution to this thread was primarily about PG, as a game publisher, being cognizant of what they're trying to accomplish in certain areas of the game, so as not to contribute to the growing epidemic of mental health issues that can arise from gaming -- that their primary objective be to do no harm above everything else, up to and including the spurring of player activity. Here's a clip from my original post:
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Having now seen all aspects of the Playlist, I think the only changes that I'd make to it is to have a maximum of 3 complete attempts at the seasonal playground games, and 5 complete attempts at 'The Trial' in order to be awarded prizes. I think that the current system might promote unhealthy behaviors in gaming when an award is beyond a player's natural abilities. Having a known grind point allows everyone to plan how much time to set aside for the playlist each week. It also gives everyone an opportunity to complete the events in fewer tries based on skill, while minimizing the possibility of excessive attempts due to bad team chemistry from random matchmaking. . . .


Again, I think that it's glaringly obvious that a vast majority of FH4's players are here for the collecting-aspect of the game, and some for the Playlist-completion aspect of it. As stated in my very first post to this thread topic, I feel that PG should implement a maximum limit to the number of attempts at the Trial and Seasonal Games before automatically awarding a prize and Playlist activity completion to those players that are stuck grinding away at the same event(s) without any visible end. During last Series' winter Trial I found the discussion between some random players (children talking over voice chat) to be rather disturbing -- disturbing at how obsessed they were at earning a reward car in a game, and at the number of attempts they had already made for it. The secondary topic that I presented afterwards, about locked game assets via online play, was an observation as to why I thought PG was doing that. I also provided an example of how another game publisher handled the distribution of game content in the last game that I played as a comparative example of how game publishers could be inadvertently promoting mental health issues in gaming when they "push" players too far for the sake of profit. Comparatively speaking, FH4 shouldn't even be in the same discussion with that other game, but my position is that PG could still be doing more to see that its gaming environment doesn't get out of hand for its players. This is just a game. I hope that people see that and understand that they, themselves, are far more important than any reward car in a game.

So, I refer you to my original offer above in regard to submitting a Feedback/Suggestion ticket to Support. I, personally, will be filing a suggestion to Support on the matter of placing some limits to the Trial and Seasonal Games. And finally, with all seriousness, from one Forum member to another: There are much better ways to spend your time than grinding away at credits for the VW I.D. R. Just play the game when you feel like it and the credits will eventually find you. Or just wait, have fun with some other games, and then see what PG does with it. That's my 2¢.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#1232 Posted : Thursday, October 31, 2019 5:29:26 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post

So, I refer you to my original offer above in regard to submitting a Feedback/Suggestion ticket to Support. I, personally, will be filing a suggestion to Support on the matter of placing some limits to the Trial and Seasonal Games. And finally, with all seriousness, from one Forum member to another: There are much better ways to spend your time than grinding away at credits for the VW I.D. R. Just play the game when you feel like it and the credits will eventually find you. Or just wait, have fun with some other games, and then see what PG does with it. That's my 2¢.

Having submitted tickets for other items in the past for both Horizon and Motorsport, the response is no reply, we don't have that information, or that's the way it's built. And these weren't for nebulous suggestions; I'm well aware of how to write up a user story or bug report so that a developer can follow it.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#1233 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2019 8:19:38 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
Not counting upcoming seasonal exclusives, there are four cars I don't own: the Chevrolet ZR2, the Ford Capri FE, the Rossion Q1, and the VW ID-R.

The next time I grind out 16M credits, I can pick up the ID-R.
The Rossion is very limited in availability on the AH right now.

I hope that you didn't waste your time grinding credits for the Volkswagen I.D. R, because it's available in an offline event during the spring season of this series (Series 16). So do you still think that PG's intent is to prevent you from ever gaining access to exclusive cars because you didn't invest in Xbox Live Gold? ๐Ÿ™„ If anything, I think that they're just trying to teach you a lesson in patience! ๐Ÿ˜‚


Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
That's an assumption on your part. Counter-example: the 917 LH, which is back this season, but only as an 80% reward, when 80% is unattainable offline. Further, the Bone Shaker, which was brought back as a PGG reward.

If you have a quote from PG confirming that all cars available to online players will eventually be made available to offline players, please share it. Otherwise, you're merely speculating.

Fair enough, but it's also an assumption on your part that PG will never allow you access to that car as an offline player.

I noticed that you haven't complained about the Apollo I.E., which has now been available in the Forzathon Shop for the 4th time -- and twice at a "stupidly" low price. I also noticed that you conveniently fail to cite those examples where exclusive cars do become available to you as an offline player. Similarly, I find it odd that you haven't made any recent complaints about the VW I.D. R, which I can only assume is because you bought it from the AH after spending hours-and-hours farming credits for it. So I can only surmise that if you had an Xbox Live Gold subscription for your console then you wouldn't have a care in the world about those "offline people". Of course, nothing that PG does will ever be good enough for you, so I expect to see you remain a permanent fixture here -- clutching that aluminum pole and airing out the same ol' grievances ad nauseum. ๐Ÿ™„
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#1234 Posted : Friday, November 29, 2019 6:17:14 AM(UTC)
I have the issue of a '1' appearing on my Festival Playlist telling me I've won something that I've previously won before, the alien suit, so I can't get the '1' to disappear.

It was discussed here: https://forums.forzamoto...-Reward--Series-11.aspx

It was said that rebooting your console fixes it, but I'm on PC and restarting the game makes no difference.

I assume it will disappear when the series is over? (Sorry that this is probably answered in the thread already but it's 1,200 posts long.)
Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#1235 Posted : Friday, November 29, 2019 6:30:15 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
I have the issue of a '1' appearing on my Festival Playlist telling me I've won something that I've previously won before, the alien suit, so I can't get the '1' to disappear.

It was discussed here: https://forums.forzamoto...-Reward--Series-11.aspx

It was said that rebooting your console fixes it, but I'm on PC and restarting the game makes no difference.

I assume it will disappear when the series is over? (Sorry that this is probably answered in the thread already but it's 1,200 posts long.)


Seems to happen every time the price is clothing. I can't get it to disappear either. It's showing '3' for me now.

Edited by user Friday, November 29, 2019 6:31:16 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: X-Class Racing License
#1236 Posted : Friday, November 29, 2019 7:09:19 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Gene Anjuise Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
I have the issue of a '1' appearing on my Festival Playlist telling me I've won something that I've previously won before, the alien suit, so I can't get the '1' to disappear.

It was discussed here: https://forums.forzamoto...-Reward--Series-11.aspx

It was said that rebooting your console fixes it, but I'm on PC and restarting the game makes no difference.

I assume it will disappear when the series is over? (Sorry that this is probably answered in the thread already but it's 1,200 posts long.)


Seems to happen every time the price is clothing. I can't get it to disappear either. It's showing '3' for me now.


It will stay there until PG does something to patch it, mine has been there for several seasons, except now it shows '2' instead of '1.'
Rules of troubleshooting:
1) Have you tried turning it off and on again?
2) Is your Internet working?
3) https://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-live-status < Check here for service issues.
4) If all else fails open a service ticket and/or forum post.

Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#1237 Posted : Friday, November 29, 2019 11:34:41 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
So do you still think that PG's intent is to prevent you from ever gaining access to exclusive cars because you didn't invest in Xbox Live Gold? If anything, I think that they're just trying to teach you a lesson in patience!

The PC that runs my sim cockpit is more than capable of running Horizon 4. It's not an issue of not being able to "invest" in Gold (btw, outlays that don't result in a future return are "expenses", not "investments").

Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post

I noticed that you haven't complained about the Apollo I.E., which has now been available in the Forzathon Shop for the 4th time -- and twice at a "stupidly" low price. I also noticed that you conveniently fail to cite those examples where exclusive cars do become available to you as an offline player. Similarly, I find it odd that you haven't made any recent complaints about the VW I.D. R, which I can only assume is because you bought it from the AH after spending hours-and-hours farming credits for it. So I can only surmise that if you had an Xbox Live Gold subscription for your console then you wouldn't have a care in the world about those "offline people".

The problem isn't any one car; the problem is an ongoing design decision. If I did continue to bring up cars that I've already found in the Auction House, then you'd just criticize me for complaining about a non-issue - anything to deflect from actually having to discuss the design flaw.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#1238 Posted : Saturday, November 30, 2019 12:10:52 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
It's not an issue of not being able to "invest" in Gold (btw, outlays that don't result in a future return are "expenses", not "investments").

Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
Right now, I have unfinished playthroughs of Modern Warfare and Gears 5, 3 more characters to play through in Borderlands 3, Death Stranding coming in a couple weeks, Jedi Fallen Order a couple weeks later, and have a backlog all the way back to the 90s if I somehow get through all of that.

The "return" you'd receive from an investment in an Xbox Live Gold subscription would've been your own happiness, less aggravation and more time to play your other games. Sounds like a pretty good investment to me.




Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
The PC that runs my sim cockpit is more than capable of running Horizon 4.

Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
The next time I grind out 16M credits, I can pick up the ID-R.

So all this time you had a PC that could run FH4 and get you into 'The Trial' for those exclusive cars? But instead you chose to; play offline, farm credits for hours on end, and buy the exclusive cars from the AH? Brilliant! Just brilliant! *slow clap*

Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
"Play how you want" used to be the vision statement of Horizon.

TBH, it sounds like you're already doing that.




Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
The problem isn't any one car; the problem is an ongoing design decision. If I did continue to bring up cars that I've already found in the Auction House, then you'd just criticize me for complaining about a non-issue - anything to deflect from actually having to discuss the design flaw.

Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
The Rossion is very limited in availability on the AH right now. But the Capri FE? Forget it. There's simply no way I can get it by being a better racer - no matter how fast I am, the only way to get it is to do the blueprint/painting/tuning/photography card. Kind of ridiculous to lock the cars in a driving game behind something other than driving.

I won't be able to get the Capri FE for the same reason. Yet I don't complain about it because those are the rules of the game that everyone must follow in order to acquire that car outside of the AH. If I can't earn that car fair-and-square like everyone else who has, then I don't deserve it. And neither do you. If a lot of those requirements have nothing to do with driving, then that's your problem and not the game's. If you weren't already aware; there's more to this game than just driving. You should know that because your main objective is collecting cars. That's your choice, so be it; but don't complain that your "way" is the only way to play this game. Go on and tell the livery designers that what they're doing has nothing to do with the game and I'm sure that they'll have a few choice words for you.

You are well aware of the rules for this game. So if you don't agree with them, then the "flaw" is with you and not with the game. Read the EULA. There's nothing in it that guarantees that the game will be exactly what you think it should be or what you want it to be. PG delivered you a game with a specific set of rules for play when you bought it. By continuing to play it, you are agreeing to the rules of the game by extension of its terms of use.




Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
The existence of such a policy is a persistent fiction backed by no evidence in favor and examples to the contrary (see the recent return of the 917 LH, or the upcoming return of the ZR2, both of which require multiplayer).

Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
Not counting upcoming seasonal exclusives, there are four cars I don't own: the Chevrolet ZR2, the Ford Capri FE, the Rossion Q1, and the VW ID-R.

Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
Why not just give players who complete either the single player or multiplayer objectives some form of currency, and then make the reward cars available for said currency?

They could call them Forza-something Points?


As for the exclusive cars from the past Trials that you're currently missing:
  • The Chevrolet Colorado ZR2 is now available for 500 "Forza-something Points" in the Forzathon Shop;
  • The VW ID-R will be available in the spring season of this series;
  • Based on the current trend, I'm sure that the Rossion Q1 will be available through an offline event or the Forzathon Shop in another update or two.

So it looks like the only real flaw here is that you don't have enough patience to wait for the cars to come around.


Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#1239 Posted : Saturday, November 30, 2019 5:54:17 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
PG delivered you a game with a specific set of rules for play when you bought it.

Which are different from the rules now.
Rank: Racing Permit
#1240 Posted : Saturday, November 30, 2019 6:08:59 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RBXGT2 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Chanzey Go to Quoted Post
I have to play every day each month in order to get the seasonal car


Once a week, actually



Depends how long they get to play.

Edited by user Saturday, November 30, 2019 6:10:20 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
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#1241 Posted : Saturday, November 30, 2019 6:28:31 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
It's not an issue of not being able to "invest" in Gold (btw, outlays that don't result in a future return are "expenses", not "investments").

Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
Right now, I have unfinished playthroughs of Modern Warfare and Gears 5, 3 more characters to play through in Borderlands 3, Death Stranding coming in a couple weeks, Jedi Fallen Order a couple weeks later, and have a backlog all the way back to the 90s if I somehow get through all of that.

The "return" you'd receive from an investment in an Xbox Live Gold subscription would've been your own happiness, less aggravation and more time to play your other games. Sounds like a pretty good investment to me.




Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
The PC that runs my sim cockpit is more than capable of running Horizon 4.

Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
The next time I grind out 16M credits, I can pick up the ID-R.

So all this time you had a PC that could run FH4 and get you into 'The Trial' for those exclusive cars? But instead you chose to; play offline, farm credits for hours on end, and buy the exclusive cars from the AH? Brilliant! Just brilliant! *slow clap*

Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
"Play how you want" used to be the vision statement of Horizon.

TBH, it sounds like you're already doing that.




Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
The problem isn't any one car; the problem is an ongoing design decision. If I did continue to bring up cars that I've already found in the Auction House, then you'd just criticize me for complaining about a non-issue - anything to deflect from actually having to discuss the design flaw.

Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
The Rossion is very limited in availability on the AH right now. But the Capri FE? Forget it. There's simply no way I can get it by being a better racer - no matter how fast I am, the only way to get it is to do the blueprint/painting/tuning/photography card. Kind of ridiculous to lock the cars in a driving game behind something other than driving.

I won't be able to get the Capri FE for the same reason. Yet I don't complain about it because those are the rules of the game that everyone must follow in order to acquire that car outside of the AH. If I can't earn that car fair-and-square like everyone else who has, then I don't deserve it. And neither do you. If a lot of those requirements have nothing to do with driving, then that's your problem and not the game's. If you weren't already aware; there's more to this game than just driving. You should know that because your main objective is collecting cars. That's your choice, so be it; but don't complain that your "way" is the only way to play this game. Go on and tell the livery designers that what they're doing has nothing to do with the game and I'm sure that they'll have a few choice words for you.

You are well aware of the rules for this game. So if you don't agree with them, then the "flaw" is with you and not with the game. Read the EULA. There's nothing in it that guarantees that the game will be exactly what you think it should be or what you want it to be. PG delivered you a game with a specific set of rules for play when you bought it. By continuing to play it, you are agreeing to the rules of the game by extension of its terms of use.




Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
The existence of such a policy is a persistent fiction backed by no evidence in favor and examples to the contrary (see the recent return of the 917 LH, or the upcoming return of the ZR2, both of which require multiplayer).

Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
Not counting upcoming seasonal exclusives, there are four cars I don't own: the Chevrolet ZR2, the Ford Capri FE, the Rossion Q1, and the VW ID-R.

Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
Why not just give players who complete either the single player or multiplayer objectives some form of currency, and then make the reward cars available for said currency?

They could call them Forza-something Points?


As for the exclusive cars from the past Trials that you're currently missing:
  • The Chevrolet Colorado ZR2 is now available for 500 "Forza-something Points" in the Forzathon Shop;
  • The VW ID-R will be available in the spring season of this series;
  • Based on the current trend, I'm sure that the Rossion Q1 will be available through an offline event or the Forzathon Shop in another update or two.

So it looks like the only real flaw here is that you don't have enough patience to wait for the cars to come around.




Precisely why I've never bought the game permanently.

If you're happy with being dripfed timed content good for you, you're exactly the sort of punchbag triple A companies want, they can do whatever they like and you'll justify it for them without thought.

I for one have a very simple rule, dripfeed your game and I'll dripfeed you my money, I've probably only spent £20-25 on the game from release including the 2 expansions through GP and sales.

You're having a pop at that guy for impatience when you probably paid full whack at release for a shell of what the game is now + all the bugs + glitches because you couldn't wait yourself.

Impatience is what these live service games prey on, at launch you pay the most for the worst version, then you get fooled into thinking what a great company they are with the patches + free updates that just fix and add things that should/shouldn't have been in the game at release anyway.

I'm seeing more and more of these unofficial PG shills by the day on here now.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
 2 users liked this post.
#1242 Posted : Saturday, November 30, 2019 8:48:30 AM(UTC)
I personally don't see any reason for the average user to defend this carrot on a stick format that PG uses to deliver new cars when it doesn't benefit the player by any means. This is only in place to keep you playing the game and keep the numbers up for whatever reason. You can make whatever theory you want about why they want the playerbase numbers up, be it keeping you invested in the game and keep paying for the game pass or gold, potentially make game pass users buy the full game, or just keep the investors happy - whatever is the real reason is beyond the point, the point being is that this is not beneficial to the end user himself since you're being limited by the developers for no good reason.

Now I'm not saying the playlist or the trial are a problem, if you enjoy it then more power to you. I just don't see how needing exclusive content behind those are a necessity when you could play them for what they are.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#1243 Posted : Saturday, November 30, 2019 7:45:45 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
Which are different from the rules now.

True. They relaxed the rules and made things easier.




Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
If you're happy with being dripfed timed content good for you, you're exactly the sort of punchbag triple A companies want, they can do whatever they like and you'll justify it for them without thought.

Nope. Totally off-base. If you read any of my previous posts from the summer through now, then youโ€™d see where Iโ€™ve been critical of the game. It would've been much easier to follow an angry crowd in order to get some quick pats on the back; However, I've chosen to be as objective as possible as to areas of improvement for the game -- and all of that irrespective of what others might have thought of those ideas.


Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
You're having a pop at that guy for impatience when you probably paid full whack at release for a shell of what the game is now + all the bugs + glitches because you couldn't wait yourself.

Impatience is what these live service games prey on, at launch you pay the most for the worst version

Nope. Sorry, Charlie. Wrong again! If you took care to read any of my previous posts then you'd understand that I recently started playing Forza. So unless I have a time machine, there's no way I could've bought the game at release. You'd also know that I only have the Standard Edition of the game. You'd also know that I didn't buy any of the expansions. You'd also know that I didn't buy the VIP pass. You'd also know that I didn't buy the Car Pass.

Everything I've done and earned in the game to-date has been on my own, from casually playing the game and participating in multiplayer races using the Standard Edition. I don't play the game because I "have to" or when it's not fun or when it simply interferes with real life activities and events. So I'm hardly the kind of person who uncontrollably acts upon impulses; though I can understand how others might make that assumption based on their own personal behaviors and traits.




Originally Posted by: RetroKrystal Go to Quoted Post
As requested, I wanted to ensure that everyone has as much information as possible regarding the Black Friday #Forzathon Shop Deals

Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
Looks good, will definitely pick up the Apollo and GT40 if I can get on.

Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
Haven't you people defending this ever heard of sleep, work, friends or family? Why should anyone if they wanted some of these cars be forced to forego at least 1 of those things for no other reason than 'Tough luck mate you live in the wrong part of the world.'?

And the ignorance from those defenders is incredible, it is blatantly obvious why people aren't happy.

Wow! Thatโ€™s quite the mood swing, Chuck! ๐Ÿ˜ฎ




Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
I for one have a very simple rule, dripfeed your game and I'll dripfeed you my money, I've probably only spent £20-25 on the game from release including the 2 expansions through GP and sales.

Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
I'm seeing more and more of these unofficial PG shills by the day on here now.

Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
Precisely why I've never bought the game permanently.

if you are so angered by this game and its "shill" tactics, then why do you still play it? Withholding your money from PG is one thing, but continuing to return to the game ultimately supports the very "tactics" that you find to be "immoral".



ON A SERIOUS NOTE: Gaming addiction is a serious matter. If you (or anyone else) feel that you need help with it, then please do not hesitate to consult the following resources and/or services:

HTH
Rank: D-Class Racing License
 2 users liked this post.
#1244 Posted : Saturday, November 30, 2019 8:42:34 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
Which are different from the rules now.

True. They relaxed the rules and made things easier.


This is, of course, verifiably false. The rules at the time I purchased the game were that you participate in either the weekly Forzathon or the Forzathon Live events (or both if you so choose), accrue Points, and use the points to purchase available rewards (or bank them if uninterested in the current reward).

This system ostensibly still exists, but new exclusive cars are instead placed behind the Festival Playlist system, which lacks the "play how you want" feature of the previous rules, instead restricting rewards to specific modes. Meanwhile, the Forzathon shop is left with repeat cars or high-credit Autoshow cars, leaving it no longer the source of new endgame rewards.

So no, the rules are not the same, nor are they less restrictive than the original rules.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#1245 Posted : Saturday, November 30, 2019 10:19:49 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
This is, of course, verifiably false. The rules at the time I purchased the game were. . .

Okay, now we're finally getting somewhere for once! You should've said that from the very beginning rather than being so vague about your complaint. If that is what you were talking about with regard to "game design", then I can understand why you're fuming. I have not heard anyone mention this before, so I'm surprised that you haven't explained it in more detail, until now, what all that "game design" nonsense was about. Sometimes getting anything useful out of you is like peeling apart an onion, layer-by-layer -- it's such a drawn-out process that it makes you want to cry. That said, if you don't like what you see, then you should file a complaint to Support and demand a refund if you feel this strongly about being wronged by the alterations to the game. And more importantly: Stop showing your support for the game by continuing to be a contributor to its "engagement numbers".

If I were as upset as you claim to be, then I would've left this game long ago. And that's exactly what I did when radical changes were made to the last game that I played for roughly 5 years -- I left it all for Forza and didn't even blink once doing it. The difference between PG/T10 and that other company is as clear as night and day to me. You just haven't seen what really nasty treatment from a game publisher looks like until you've been to that other place.

Anyway, this is all news to me and not the experience that I've had since starting Forza this year (as I mentioned to that other guy). Since I've been playing FH4, the rules have actually been relaxed in terms of difficulty. So I guess the following comment from @TheGillesMueller better fits your case than mine:
Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
You're having a pop at that guy for impatience when you probably paid full whack at release for a shell of what the game is now + all the bugs + glitches because you couldn't wait yourself.

Impatience is what these live service games prey on, at launch you pay the most for the worst version . . .


Rank: D-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#1246 Posted : Sunday, December 1, 2019 5:25:57 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
This is, of course, verifiably false. The rules at the time I purchased the game were. . .

Okay, now we're finally getting somewhere for once! You should've said that from the very beginning rather than being so vague about your complaint. If that is what you were talking about with regard to "game design", then I can understand why you're fuming. I have not heard anyone mention this before, so I'm surprised that you haven't explained it in more detail, until now, what all that "game design" nonsense was about. Sometimes getting anything useful out of you is like peeling apart an onion, layer-by-layer -- it's such a drawn-out process that it makes you want to cry.

This is the same thing I've been saying for the entirety of what is now a 50-page thread. Why not read the history of what you're replying to instead of complaining?

Rank: Racing Permit
 2 users liked this post.
#1247 Posted : Sunday, December 1, 2019 6:01:24 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
Which are different from the rules now.

True. They relaxed the rules and made things easier.




Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
If you're happy with being dripfed timed content good for you, you're exactly the sort of punchbag triple A companies want, they can do whatever they like and you'll justify it for them without thought.

Nope. Totally off-base. If you read any of my previous posts from the summer through now, then youโ€™d see where Iโ€™ve been critical of the game. It would've been much easier to follow an angry crowd in order to get some quick pats on the back; However, I've chosen to be as objective as possible as to areas of improvement for the game -- and all of that irrespective of what others might have thought of those ideas.


Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
You're having a pop at that guy for impatience when you probably paid full whack at release for a shell of what the game is now + all the bugs + glitches because you couldn't wait yourself.

Impatience is what these live service games prey on, at launch you pay the most for the worst version

Nope. Sorry, Charlie. Wrong again! If you took care to read any of my previous posts then you'd understand that I recently started playing Forza. So unless I have a time machine, there's no way I could've bought the game at release. You'd also know that I only have the Standard Edition of the game. You'd also know that I didn't buy any of the expansions. You'd also know that I didn't buy the VIP pass. You'd also know that I didn't buy the Car Pass.

Everything I've done and earned in the game to-date has been on my own, from casually playing the game and participating in multiplayer races using the Standard Edition. I don't play the game because I "have to" or when it's not fun or when it simply interferes with real life activities and events. So I'm hardly the kind of person who uncontrollably acts upon impulses; though I can understand how others might make that assumption based on their own personal behaviors and traits.




Originally Posted by: RetroKrystal Go to Quoted Post
As requested, I wanted to ensure that everyone has as much information as possible regarding the Black Friday #Forzathon Shop Deals

Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
Looks good, will definitely pick up the Apollo and GT40 if I can get on.

Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
Haven't you people defending this ever heard of sleep, work, friends or family? Why should anyone if they wanted some of these cars be forced to forego at least 1 of those things for no other reason than 'Tough luck mate you live in the wrong part of the world.'?

And the ignorance from those defenders is incredible, it is blatantly obvious why people aren't happy.

Wow! Thatโ€™s quite the mood swing, Chuck! ๐Ÿ˜ฎ




Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
I for one have a very simple rule, dripfeed your game and I'll dripfeed you my money, I've probably only spent £20-25 on the game from release including the 2 expansions through GP and sales.

Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
I'm seeing more and more of these unofficial PG shills by the day on here now.

Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
Precisely why I've never bought the game permanently.

if you are so angered by this game and its "shill" tactics, then why do you still play it? Withholding your money from PG is one thing, but continuing to return to the game ultimately supports the very "tactics" that you find to be "immoral".



ON A SERIOUS NOTE: Gaming addiction is a serious matter. If you (or anyone else) feel that you need help with it, then please do not hesitate to consult the following resources and/or services:

HTH


Because at it's core it's still an excellent game, unfortunately it's sprinkled with issue after issue, bug after bug and terrible design choice after terrible design choice, just because I like the game doesn't mean I'm going to ignore it and make it exempt from criticism.

There isn't any competition for FH4 either, NFS and The Crew's driving are arcadey and feel awful, they could nail the world, races, activities and online but it would be pointless with their terrible physics.

FH4 is the best sponge cake around but garnished with icing straight from the trash can.

And as for your mood swing comment that 1st post was made before I found out about the 3 hour windows, perhaps you should have checked that since you were so keen on going through everything.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
 3 users liked this post.
#1248 Posted : Sunday, December 1, 2019 10:05:29 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
Because at it's core it's still an excellent game, unfortunately it's sprinkled with issue after issue, bug after bug and terrible design choice after terrible design choice, just because I like the game doesn't mean I'm going to ignore it and make it exempt from criticism.

There isn't any competition for FH4 either, NFS and The Crew's driving are arcadey and feel awful, they could nail the world, races, activities and online but it would be pointless with their terrible physics.

FH4 is the best sponge cake around but garnished with icing straight from the trash can.

I agree that there's room for improvement with this game. However, your complaints extend beyond the game's design itself when you talk about it being reprehensible for incorporating "shill tactics". Such speak goes beyond simple inconveniences like bugs and server issues. This becomes a matter of one's principles. There's nothing wrong with criticizing the game for nuisance issues or the like. However, to criticize the game for "moral" issues and then to support it through continued play does nothing more than to compromise your own principles. And urging others to take action on behalf of your principles and then to act in complete opposition to those same principles is nothing short of hypocritical, and simply minimizes your complaints.

That said, I do agree that this game is dee-lish.



Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
And as for your mood swing comment that 1st post was made before I found out about the 3 hour windows, perhaps you should have checked that since you were so keen on going through everything.

Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
Looks good, will definitely pick up the Apollo and GT40 if I can get on.

Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
Haven't you people defending this ever heard of sleep, work, friends or family? Why should anyone if they wanted some of these cars be forced to forego at least 1 of those things for no other reason than 'Tough luck mate you live in the wrong part of the world.'?

And the ignorance from those defenders is incredible, it is blatantly obvious why people aren't happy.

Pardon me for not extending the highlight to the part where you wrote, "if I can get on." (As I just did above.) My bad. Surely you had to understand that you might not get the car(s) when you said that. Right? And it even looked as though you'd be totally fine if you couldn't get either or both cars. Then you had that sudden outburst. . . which was rather startling, TBH. Still is! ๐Ÿ˜ฎ Wow. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ Wow. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ





Wow. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
This is the same thing I've been saying for the entirety of what is now a 50-page thread. Why not read the history of what you're replying to instead of complaining?

Yeah, the "same thing [you've] been saying" because you've chosen to rely on an incorrect assumption like that guy above. And then you compound the problem by responding in riddles. How is anyone to correctly decipher what you're trying to say when you leave half of your thoughts (usually important ones) stuck in your head? If you could see what you wrote outside of your own thought process, then you'd understand why there's such a big disconnect here. In other words, read this thread from the perspective of someone who's only seen this game in its current form -- it just looks like any other thread with the same people complaining about the same Playlist like every other day since I joined the Forum. There's nothing in the discussion that explicitly states when changes were made to the game, because it was already understood by those affected by the changes. You just assumed that everyone joining this game afterwards would have the same knowledge of events as you.

Only after you explained how and when the game was changed, post-release, did your complaints have any meaning to them. That said, you should have been able to infer from what I was saying, early on, that I didn't have that same understanding of when PG made those changes. Think about it: Why would anyone new to Horizon jump to the conclusion that PG would attempt such a thing when they recently discussed the difficulties involved with adjusting something as seemingly simple as the garage limit? So again, I'm going to reiterate the point that the "when" was just as important to our conversation as the "what". Really think about that and maybe you'll understand how to better communicate your complaints to others in the future. Properly communicating your thoughts is essential to interacting with others and to understand things; like what your customers really want so that you're not wasting your time undoing everything that you thought they wanted.

Wow. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

So understanding why you're so upset, does that now change the position I had in our previous discussions? Nope. Not one bit. I actually prefer the Playlist over the old rewards system, if that prior mechanism resembled what is currently in FM7. It's a matter of preference so we're never going to agree on which game design is better.

We can also revisit another discussion we had: Is either game design "flawed"? Nope; they're just different. If PG reverted the design back to the old one, I wouldn't then say that the design is now flawed. It's what the game is, and it's within PG's right to make those changes as they see fit; whether you approve of them or not. Was it a great idea to impose such changes on people post-release? IMHO: No. However, going forward you have the ability to voice your disapproval to PG using your wallet. Similarly, Mueller's suggestion to not buy something pre-release or so closely after its launch date is pretty sound advice too.

Wow. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ


Wow. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ


Just wow. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ


Rank: D-Class Racing License
#1249 Posted : Monday, December 2, 2019 6:17:15 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
And then you compound the problem by responding in riddles. How is anyone to correctly decipher what you're trying to say when you leave half of your thoughts (usually important ones) stuck in your head? If you could see what you wrote outside of your own thought process, then you'd understand why there's such a big disconnect here. In other words, read this thread from the perspective of someone who's only seen this game in its current form -- it just looks like any other thread with the same people complaining about the same Playlist like every other day since I joined the Forum. There's nothing in the discussion that explicitly states when changes were made to the game, because it was already understood by those affected by the changes. You just assumed that everyone joining this game afterwards would have the same knowledge of events as you.


I've been discussing the playlist change in this thread since the week it went live. What could I possibly have been comparing it to other than the release build?

If you're done complaining about how expecting you to have read the thread we're in is somehow "responding in riddles", then can we get back to the actual topic - the replacement of a less-restrictive endgame reward mechanism with a more restrictive one, and how it's a regression from PG's purported design principle of "freedom"?

Edited by user Monday, December 2, 2019 6:20:18 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#1250 Posted : Monday, December 2, 2019 6:27:58 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
Because at it's core it's still an excellent game, unfortunately it's sprinkled with issue after issue, bug after bug and terrible design choice after terrible design choice, just because I like the game doesn't mean I'm going to ignore it and make it exempt from criticism.

There isn't any competition for FH4 either, NFS and The Crew's driving are arcadey and feel awful, they could nail the world, races, activities and online but it would be pointless with their terrible physics.

FH4 is the best sponge cake around but garnished with icing straight from the trash can.

I agree that there's room for improvement with this game. However, your complaints extend beyond the game's design itself when you talk about it being reprehensible for incorporating "shill tactics". Such speak goes beyond simple inconveniences like bugs and server issues. This becomes a matter of one's principles. There's nothing wrong with criticizing the game for nuisance issues or the like. However, to criticize the game for "moral" issues and then to support it through continued play does nothing more than to compromise your own principles. And urging others to take action on behalf of your principles and then to act in complete opposition to those same principles is nothing short of hypocritical, and simply minimizes your complaints.

That said, I do agree that this game is dee-lish.



Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
And as for your mood swing comment that 1st post was made before I found out about the 3 hour windows, perhaps you should have checked that since you were so keen on going through everything.

Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
Looks good, will definitely pick up the Apollo and GT40 if I can get on.

Originally Posted by: TheGillesMuller Go to Quoted Post
Haven't you people defending this ever heard of sleep, work, friends or family? Why should anyone if they wanted some of these cars be forced to forego at least 1 of those things for no other reason than 'Tough luck mate you live in the wrong part of the world.'?

And the ignorance from those defenders is incredible, it is blatantly obvious why people aren't happy.

Pardon me for not extending the highlight to the part where you wrote, "if I can get on." (As I just did above.) My bad. Surely you had to understand that you might not get the car(s) when you said that. Right? And it even looked as though you'd be totally fine if you couldn't get either or both cars. Then you had that sudden outburst. . . which was rather startling, TBH. Still is! ๐Ÿ˜ฎ Wow. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ Wow. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ





Wow. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
This is the same thing I've been saying for the entirety of what is now a 50-page thread. Why not read the history of what you're replying to instead of complaining?

Yeah, the "same thing [you've] been saying" because you've chosen to rely on an incorrect assumption like that guy above. And then you compound the problem by responding in riddles. How is anyone to correctly decipher what you're trying to say when you leave half of your thoughts (usually important ones) stuck in your head? If you could see what you wrote outside of your own thought process, then you'd understand why there's such a big disconnect here. In other words, read this thread from the perspective of someone who's only seen this game in its current form -- it just looks like any other thread with the same people complaining about the same Playlist like every other day since I joined the Forum. There's nothing in the discussion that explicitly states when changes were made to the game, because it was already understood by those affected by the changes. You just assumed that everyone joining this game afterwards would have the same knowledge of events as you.

Only after you explained how and when the game was changed, post-release, did your complaints have any meaning to them. That said, you should have been able to infer from what I was saying, early on, that I didn't have that same understanding of when PG made those changes. Think about it: Why would anyone new to Horizon jump to the conclusion that PG would attempt such a thing when they recently discussed the difficulties involved with adjusting something as seemingly simple as the garage limit? So again, I'm going to reiterate the point that the "when" was just as important to our conversation as the "what". Really think about that and maybe you'll understand how to better communicate your complaints to others in the future. Properly communicating your thoughts is essential to interacting with others and to understand things; like what your customers really want so that you're not wasting your time undoing everything that you thought they wanted.

Wow. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

So understanding why you're so upset, does that now change the position I had in our previous discussions? Nope. Not one bit. I actually prefer the Playlist over the old rewards system, if that prior mechanism resembled what is currently in FM7. It's a matter of preference so we're never going to agree on which game design is better.

We can also revisit another discussion we had: Is either game design "flawed"? Nope; they're just different. If PG reverted the design back to the old one, I wouldn't then say that the design is now flawed. It's what the game is, and it's within PG's right to make those changes as they see fit; whether you approve of them or not. Was it a great idea to impose such changes on people post-release? IMHO: No. However, going forward you have the ability to voice your disapproval to PG using your wallet. Similarly, Mueller's suggestion to not buy something pre-release or so closely after its launch date is pretty sound advice too.

Wow. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ


Wow. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ


Just wow. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ




And I'll repeat again I did not know about the 3 hour windows when I posted the 1st comment, I assumed they would all be available in 1 block for Black Friday only which I'd guess plenty of others did too, I'm sometimes unavailable on Fridays hence the 'if I can get on' bit.

And I've never said this game incorporates shill tactics, I refer to the people who instantly jump to defend the game because they can't bear to hear something is wrong with it as shills.

Like I said it's a lovely cake garnished with trash, the actual driving is the best in an open-world racing game ever, plenty of cars to choose from and plenty of tuning + painting options for those that are into it.

Unfortunately in addition to it's live service garbage it has awful music, silly and pointless emotes, poor character customisation with silly clothing items + outfits en masse, slow and cluttered menus, NPC's you can't ignore that are written so badly and sound so cringey that being deaf is a gift when they're speaking, I'm lucky if I can go above 250mph for any more than a few seconds, the online was shocking for months at launch and can still be inconsistent now finding a match and despite rectifying obvious wallriding + ramming tactics the ramming can still be exploited and abused as I found out this series in my 1 and only adventure for the playlist and as a Brit the world doesn't excite me at all, I've seen something similar to every single thing on the map in real life but I know that one is purely personal.

Brilliant game but infuriating in so many ways, it sticks out more than any other game I can remember because I never thought this about the previous 3 Horizon's, even the God awful 360 version of FH2 didn't irritate me as much as this one does at times.

Laughably that very same game still has a better multiplayer than FH4, it has these alien things called lobbies where if you want to play Playground Games for instance then instead of waiting half a week to find a match then having to wait for players to accept and possibly not enough accepting so you have to start again you go straight in to one of these lobby things and then when enough like minded people are in this strange place with you the game starts in 30 seconds, how about that?

Both Forza franchises don't seem to be able to help themselves in that respect though, always fiddling with things they got spot on years ago and implementing silly gimmicks that add nothing worthwhile to the game, I doubt anyone will shed tears if the next Horizon has no emotes or chicken suits or if LaRacer can't make it to the festival.
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