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Rank: A-Class Racing License
#101 Posted : Monday, February 25, 2019 3:58:24 AM(UTC)
Maybe that's why I'm not bowled over by it then, I was already using manual w/clutch which I've been doing ever since Forza Motorsport 3.

(I would like to see Forza ditch the 'with clutch' system because I think it's completely stupid btw... but while it's there, I use it.)

Edited by user Monday, February 25, 2019 3:59:08 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#102 Posted : Monday, February 25, 2019 4:55:14 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: V12 SprungBoss Go to Quoted Post
I was building RS4 few days ago and i really wonder how breeminators tune pulls so big lead right in the start when i use manual gears, i then change using manual w/clutch and i didint lose at acceleration anymore. I was wondering is that difference really that big so i did 1km drag race automatic vs manual vs manual w/clutch, manual was almost 0,6s faster than automatic but when change manual w/clutch it was almost 0,5s faster than using just manual.

The clutch upgrades are often basically free for many cars, but they use up significant PI for the RS4, so I left it at the lowest level of clutch, as it wouldn't have been as competitive without those points spent elsewhere.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#103 Posted : Monday, February 25, 2019 5:17:27 AM(UTC)
RS4 clutch upgrade cost same amount PI than other 10+ year old cars that are awd in stock. Newest stock awd cars clutch upgrade is basicly free as those have good clutch allready in stock.

In RS4 those drag strip difference come while using sport clutch, maybe i need to test what kinda difference there is in that car while using stock clutch.

Edit, i run quick test in drag strip with diffent clutch setups with audi RS4 '06, by using automatic difference between stock clutch and race clutch was abaout 0,3s, with manual that difference was abaout 0,25s and manual w/clutch 0,1s. By using sport clutch automatic and manual times was between stock and race versions but with manual w/clutch time was same than using race clutch. But where it was big diffence was times that car run that drag stip (for example bone shaker all gear change setups difference was under 0,3s)

Stock clutch
automatic 22,556
manual 22,022
manual w/clutch 21,388

race clutch
automatic 22,289
manual 21,778
manual w/clutch 21,288

So even by using race clutch manual was 0,4s slower than stock clutch version while using manual w/clutch. I dont know what everybody else think but imo that difference is way too big in 21s race while chancing gear 4 times.

Edited by user Monday, February 25, 2019 6:02:22 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's License
#104 Posted : Monday, February 25, 2019 8:07:49 AM(UTC)
really we need to have a couple of drag automatics then
two and 3 speed poweglides
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#105 Posted : Friday, March 1, 2019 1:11:10 PM(UTC)
"I don't bother playing online at all. What are people doing to it to make it so fast in A class, it doesn't have much PI room? They did nerf the rev banging muscles cars in FM4. Generally I'd say if you get a ton of people playing 1-3 cars only in a game of over 550 cars there is probably an issue."

Bone shaker is car that hugely benefit awd swap, and typical forza tune (awd swap, rear aero, widest rear tires) gives 12 PI points to work with if install one size bigger rear tires have 14 PI points to work with. And when car have race supsension and brakes in stock and all drivetrain race upgrades cost 1 PI totally it leave up lots of options where to spend rest of those points.
Rank: Racing Permit
#106 Posted : Friday, March 1, 2019 5:23:13 PM(UTC)
NERF BONE SHAKERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Rank: Racing Permit
#107 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2019 8:46:44 AM(UTC)
My feedback ticket on this car (and other balancing issues) has now been open for nearly 6 days with no change in status. It contains over 50 sourced examples of discussions on this car being imbalanced, from reddit and youtube, and the results of my own testing. I was hoping it would have received some sort of an update as the Series 7 update is drawing closer and closer and there has been no indication from PG as to whether they intend to do anything about this car. This Boneshaker meta is just incredibly destructive to the game and it makes no sense to just leave it as it is. I was hoping it would be passed on to the developers or the balance team.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#108 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2019 11:01:14 AM(UTC)
I'm reminded of first-person shooters where people demand weapon x be nerfed because it's over-powered. The thing is, anyone can also use said weapon. The same goes for the Bone Shaker. Rather than nerf it, just make it available again for purchase in the Forzathon store.
Rank: Racing Permit
#109 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2019 11:19:05 AM(UTC)
Yeah the Boneshaker is the M2 Carl Gustav of Horizon. Fortunately, Dice nerfed the Gustav in Battlefield BC2 before it destroyed the game (it was rediculously broken).

There will always be a few meta cars, but I would rather the OP tier be the Daytona/TZ2/33S/NSX/GTR etc rather than just the boneshaker on it's own. The Boneshaker is not 'just' overpowered, it's broken, hence why it dominates all surfaces (road/street/dirt) in A class and S1, heck its OP for Cross Country too providing you can avoid rammers.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#110 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2019 11:24:36 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: grolschie Go to Quoted Post
I'm reminded of first-person shooters where people demand weapon x be nerfed because it's over-powered. The thing is, anyone can also use said weapon. The same goes for the Bone Shaker. Rather than nerf it, just make it available again for purchase in the Forzathon store.


They already made it available in the Seasonal Playground games, which was easily accomplished. So they essentially gifted it to anyone that participated in that seasonal event. For those complaining, I am guessing it is in relation to ranked lobbies, which I would say your only job in a ranked lobby is to win and if that means using the best possible car, then do it. If you want to play for fun and use other cars then join a quickplay session. If you want to be ranked, you better learn to use the Meta. There will always be a few Meta vehicels and you will always see people that want to rank up using them. Who in their right mind is going to bring an average car to a ranked lobby when they have the choice to bring an OP car? Unless they just make every single vehicle have the same grip, acceleration, top speed, gear ratios, suspension, etc. but just look different, which would be extremely boring, you will always have certain vehicles that perform better than others. Either learn to accept/use the meta or don't play ranked if it bothers you.

It is a never ending cycle if you nerf things, there will always be the next Meta vehicle in line, and people will then complain about that one, and so on and so forth until we are all driving a Ford Focus that just comes in 550 different styles/looks.

If you give me the option to bring a rocket launcher, a machine gun, a pistol, and a knife to a fight. I am probably picking the rocket launcher.... If you nerf that into a water gun, I'll bring the machine gun, if you nerf that, then I'll bring the pistol, nerf that, then I guess we are all bringing a knife to a gun fight.

You choose your own destiny, if you want to be righteous and original so that you can try to win that way, go for it. Just remember its YOUR choice. If you want those grand master rewards, you better learn to use the Meta, or you better have some Bruce Lee skills so you can win a gun fight with a knife...
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#111 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2019 11:57:09 AM(UTC)
@Jadigafer7 You havent clearly play old call of dutys where knife was op ;)

And biggest problem abaout bone shaker is that PI system is not balance in a-class, in S1 and S2 class PI system is in better balance but in a-class there is huge difference. For example at S1 class around bamburgh abaout 250 cars that i have tested and 98% of those are 2 second or less slower than fastest time. While in a-class most cars are at least 2 second slower than bone shaker. So instead of focusing nerfing bone shaker would be better if PG focus balancing PI system better in a-class.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#112 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2019 11:58:07 AM(UTC)
I think you do not understand the meta cycle. There will always be a meta in every game, but a properly balanced one will have the best players making meta, but they also know its weakness. So they then exploit that to become the new meta to take out fotm.

Nerf chaining is just reverse power creep. As I have said before, the car is not the issue, it is the PI weighting needs adjust. Then the meta will only be apparent meta allowing some cars to be better than others. No voting means now your car selection has more merit and driver skill more value.

Once wall riding is corrected, it will be even more so.

Again, it isnt the cars. It is an imbalance in the fundamental mechanics of the game.
Rank: Racing Permit
#113 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2019 12:09:21 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: V12 SprungBoss Go to Quoted Post
@Jadigafer7 You havent clearly play old call of dutys where knife was op ;).

Combat knife in BO4 is still OP :) Luckily Akimbo is not.

Rank: Racing Permit
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#114 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2019 12:48:35 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Jadigafer7 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: grolschie Go to Quoted Post
I'm reminded of first-person shooters where people demand weapon x be nerfed because it's over-powered. The thing is, anyone can also use said weapon. The same goes for the Bone Shaker. Rather than nerf it, just make it available again for purchase in the Forzathon store.


They already made it available in the Seasonal Playground games, which was easily accomplished. So they essentially gifted it to anyone that participated in that seasonal event. For those complaining, I am guessing it is in relation to ranked lobbies, which I would say your only job in a ranked lobby is to win and if that means using the best possible car, then do it. If you want to play for fun and use other cars then join a quickplay session. If you want to be ranked, you better learn to use the Meta. There will always be a few Meta vehicels and you will always see people that want to rank up using them. Who in their right mind is going to bring an average car to a ranked lobby when they have the choice to bring an OP car? Unless they just make every single vehicle have the same grip, acceleration, top speed, gear ratios, suspension, etc. but just look different, which would be extremely boring, you will always have certain vehicles that perform better than others. Either learn to accept/use the meta or don't play ranked if it bothers you.

It is a never ending cycle if you nerf things, there will always be the next Meta vehicle in line, and people will then complain about that one, and so on and so forth until we are all driving a Ford Focus that just comes in 550 different styles/looks.

If you give me the option to bring a rocket launcher, a machine gun, a pistol, and a knife to a fight. I am probably picking the rocket launcher.... If you nerf that into a water gun, I'll bring the machine gun, if you nerf that, then I'll bring the pistol, nerf that, then I guess we are all bringing a knife to a gun fight.

You choose your own destiny, if you want to be righteous and original so that you can try to win that way, go for it. Just remember its YOUR choice. If you want those grand master rewards, you better learn to use the Meta, or you better have some Bruce Lee skills so you can win a gun fight with a knife...


Honestly this philosophy in my opinion just goes against good game design. A good game should try to avoid a stagnant meta. I concede there will always be a 'OP' car but having a gradual rotation in power is much better than month after month of the same car dominating, and in basically every scenario too which is even worse.

This is a racing game and a big part of that is the ability to drive different cars at different levels of competitiveness. It's the developers job to manipulate the PI system to try and keep balance as even as possible. The Boneshaker is evidence that it's not working at all, and gradually the will to play gets sapped when you are basically told join the meta or be penalised.

It's the same with AWD vs RWD, not even a semblance of balance, forcing players into AWD even if they don't want to play it. That is not good game design in a car game and I don't buy the 'always will be a meta' reasoning to sit back and do absolutely nothing.

Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#115 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2019 3:09:31 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: VengerPort Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: V12 SprungBoss Go to Quoted Post
@Jadigafer7 You havent clearly play old call of dutys where knife was op ;).

Combat knife in BO4 is still OP :) Luckily Akimbo is not.


LOL, I was more of a Counter-Strike 1.6 / Counter-Strike Source, Dust Map kinda guy. Pull out your knife so you can run faster and rush the tunnel, nade --> flashbang --> flashbang --> Ak47 --> Desert Eagle --> then start right click knifing guys.

As for stagnant meta, it would be very difficult in a game like Forza Horizon to be constantly making adjustments to vehicles to rotate meta... this isn't Clash Royale. I'm gonna use CS again as a reference, a AWP is gonna one shot kill you even if I hit your baby finger no matter what, but the type of map you are on (or type of race and environment: circuit, street, road, dirt, winter, rain, etc.) will help to make certain guns (or cars) better than others. Guns in FPS games are rarely re-balanced or nerfed if ever, just as cars in racing games are rarely re-balanced or nerfed. It is unfortunate that the Boneshaker is OP in many different race types, but its also a shame that an AWP will one shot kill you no matter where I shoot you and if I am skilled at quick scoping / no-scoping, then my meta game is gonna result in a K:D ratio much better than yours, especially if you bring your glock/knife to the fight.

If you aren't someone that wants to participate in or tolerate a meta game, don't play a ranked lobby, do quick matches instead. The definition of a ranked lobby is a competitive, win at all cost so you can be number 1 environment. If you want to "enjoy" the many cars of the games and not worry about losing skill score points, a non-ranked lobby is the place to do it. Go win some pride and enjoy the game. If you want the leaderboard glory/prizes and the meta game environment that comes with it, then leave your feelings at the door and be prepared for an all out, no holds barred, fight to the death in a ranked lobby.

Edited by user Monday, March 4, 2019 3:28:46 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#116 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2019 4:09:41 PM(UTC)
Again I don't think many people are asking for constant minor balance changes, but rather fixes to the things that are obviously broken. I don't think 'difficult' is the word I would use to describe it, for as far as I can tell PG have not attempted to make any balance adjustments to cars since release, yet the have the PI system that should in theory allow them to do that.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#117 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2019 4:25:57 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Jadigafer7 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: VengerPort Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: V12 SprungBoss Go to Quoted Post
@Jadigafer7 You havent clearly play old call of dutys where knife was op ;).

Combat knife in BO4 is still OP :) Luckily Akimbo is not.


LOL, I was more of a Counter-Strike 1.6 / Counter-Strike Source, Dust Map kinda guy. Pull out your knife so you can run faster and rush the tunnel, nade --> flashbang --> flashbang --> Ak47 --> Desert Eagle --> then start right click knifing guys.

As for stagnant meta, it would be very difficult in a game like Forza Horizon to be constantly making adjustments to vehicles to rotate meta... this isn't Clash Royale. I'm gonna use CS again as a reference, a AWP is gonna one shot kill you even if I hit your baby finger no matter what, but the type of map you are on (or type of race and environment: circuit, street, road, dirt, winter, rain, etc.) will help to make certain guns (or cars) better than others. Guns in FPS games are rarely re-balanced or nerfed if ever, just as cars in racing games are rarely re-balanced or nerfed. It is unfortunate that the Boneshaker is OP in many different race types, but its also a shame that an AWP will one shot kill you no matter where I shoot you and if I am skilled at quick scoping / no-scoping, then my meta game is gonna result in a K:D ratio much better than yours, especially if you bring your glock/knife to the fight.

If you aren't someone that wants to participate in or tolerate a meta game, don't play a ranked lobby, do quick matches instead. The definition of a ranked lobby is a competitive, win at all cost so you can be number 1 environment. If you want to "enjoy" the many cars of the games and not worry about losing skill score points, a non-ranked lobby is the place to do it. Go win some pride and enjoy the game. If you want the leaderboard glory/prizes and the meta game environment that comes with it, then leave your feelings at the door and be prepared for an all out, no holds barred, fight to the death in a ranked lobby.


I dont play mutch FPS game but i know enough that even there nerfs and buffs are pretty commons. And isnt FM7 cars also that are banned for online? Sure if bone shaker would get banned people would just use more evo's, daytona etc but i think it would be healthier (lol like there is anything healthy in online right now) if bone shaker would get banned.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#118 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2019 4:32:38 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: grolschie Go to Quoted Post
I'm reminded of first-person shooters where people demand weapon x be nerfed because it's over-powered. The thing is, anyone can also use said weapon. The same goes for the Bone Shaker.


The problem isn't in the car, it's in the PI calculation. As many cars as have proven to stand out above the rest in A class, there are likely more, and builds of the stronger cars, that would fall behind the average pace. We only see a minority of cars being successful in any class. Part of it is groupthink, popular tunes and cars become more popular. Part of it is the PI system.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#119 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2019 4:51:59 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: grolschie Go to Quoted Post
I'm reminded of first-person shooters where people demand weapon x be nerfed because it's over-powered. The thing is, anyone can also use said weapon. The same goes for the Bone Shaker.


The problem isn't in the car, it's in the PI calculation. As many cars as have proven to stand out above the rest in A class, there are likely more, and builds of the stronger cars, that would fall behind the average pace. We only see a minority of cars being successful in any class. Part of it is groupthink, popular tunes and cars become more popular. Part of it is the PI system.


And the lower the PI, the more apparent this will be outside of tuning up the D class cars.

Reason is, like you said, the PI calculation is not optimized for the type of racing that Horizons has. The best example I will use is from the PVP drag race event. The reason the 32 and 40 ford were the best by a significant amount is that it's base chassis had minimum PI from stuff that isn't much value for that class in that type of racing. It is why you didn't want drag tires. Drag tires added handling meaning you were gaining useless PI. Other cars from base had better suspensions and brakes, more PI lost. It is why in the Juggernaut, many other cars were better than the 32 and 40 and would beat them.

That is what happens in the A class, and would happen in B and C if they were more competitive interest. Other cars when overall have stats where it isn't needed. Perhaps it is top speed. But majority of the tracks cannot benefit from the top speed. Top speed is affected by aerodynamics, so a more aero car is at a disadvantage. Put it this way. A fast accelerating, but low top speed car due to aero dynamics (referring to PI) vs a higher top speed from aerodynamics. The aerodynamics and power combine for top speed, so adjusting gearing still has you with poorer acceleration.

There is a whole host of factors like this. There are many factors for performance that are not part of the PI. Some cars at A class have more handling than they can use. It is wasted PI. They might have a high skid pad, but if most tracks cannot get up to speed to make value. Perhaps it is braking. Who knows what all it is?

I believe it was V12 SprungBoss who pointed out about the tire size. There for example is a case of optimal PI for the class. That big rear tire is something most cars cannot get. So it can get a launch that others cant. It also isn't really something fully factored in PI. Yeah, there is acceleration and launch stats, but that doesn't account for the road conditions, only optimal. I think this is probably the most important place to start since in Horizons, launch (acceleration traction) seems to be much more relevant than in motorsports, so it really should have a higher weighting in the PI.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#120 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2019 8:23:40 PM(UTC)
Somewhat off topic, anyone noticed changes to sim steering in the recent patch? I feel like it's faster and more precise off center. More balanced in potential performance for RWDs vs AWDs.

Edited by user Monday, March 4, 2019 8:45:01 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#121 Posted : Tuesday, March 5, 2019 1:34:35 AM(UTC)
i want to die
i want to die
Rank: Racing Permit
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#122 Posted : Tuesday, March 5, 2019 3:57:19 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: grolschie Go to Quoted Post
I'm reminded of first-person shooters where people demand weapon x be nerfed because it's over-powered. The thing is, anyone can also use said weapon. The same goes for the Bone Shaker.


The problem isn't in the car, it's in the PI calculation. As many cars as have proven to stand out above the rest in A class, there are likely more, and builds of the stronger cars, that would fall behind the average pace. We only see a minority of cars being successful in any class. Part of it is groupthink, popular tunes and cars become more popular. Part of it is the PI system.


A big part is the PI system, and the Boneshaker getting the widest rear tires in the game which gives a lot of PI playroom to tune the car. But imo there is another issue that I have raised before.

Aerodynamic drag. Why does a 410 bhp boneshaker reach ~176mph while the 05 Lotus Elise with ~320hp maxes out at 165 on a good day. I am pretty sure the Lotus Elise should have a much lower drag coefficient than the Boneshaker, but in this game it seems to be reversed. Heck, with the racing V8 the Boneshaker easily pushes past 200mph in S1. Like look at the thing, it should be the least aerodynamic car in the game, exposed engine, exposed wheels (and massive ones at that), totally exposed cabin with 90 degree angles. It should have more drag than the Transit Van. If they fix this, then at least it would be a pure low speed handling and acceleration car and die on the faster tracks.

Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#123 Posted : Tuesday, March 5, 2019 4:17:03 AM(UTC)
Ranked online races in A-class are definitely boring because of the Bone Shaker. When equipped with Rally tires it can tackle every situation competitively. And that's the point of the car which I despise the most. It kills the need for variety.
It favours greatly from weaknesses in the PI system? Other cars do too.
It benefits from the short races due to its awesome launch speed? Other cars do too.
It has grip for days and is easy to drive? Other cars do too.
It can tackle tarmac, dirt, rain, snow and even off-road with one single setup? Maybe a handful other cars can do that too.

But it's the only car which combines all those traits. And that's what it makes it annoying.
What profit over the whole adventure provides me the Clio FE which destroys the Bone Shaker in handling tracks but comes in dead last in Freeroam Rush or power tracks?Which can't tackle rain?
What advantage do I get from cars which outperform the Bone Shaker on power tracks (Daytona, Evo VI) when they stand no chance at the rest of the adventure?

There are many cars that can match the Bone Shaker on a balanced track and are way more fun to drive: Daytona, Evo's, Insignia, RS4's, old muscle cars, Ferrari F355( my new favourite). But they all have weaknesses during most adventures. The Bone Shaker has none. At S1 or S2 you need to know the playlists to make a good car decision. There are alternatives to pick. At A-class: Just pick your Rally tire Bone Shaker and you're set for everything.
A car with this power/weight ratio and grip should not be able to equip Rally tires at A-class.

Edited by user Tuesday, March 5, 2019 4:18:37 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#124 Posted : Tuesday, March 5, 2019 5:33:50 AM(UTC)
Like said, launch offers too much. Big tire means bigger longitudinal traction. If the freeroam offered position for following race instead of points, that would be more consideration. Sacrifice pole position for a better lap time.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#125 Posted : Tuesday, March 5, 2019 6:00:42 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Exsurgolol Go to Quoted Post
If they fix this, then at least it would be a pure low speed handling and acceleration car and die on the faster tracks.

It already does die on the faster tracks, the Daytona destroys it on the last part of Lakehurst Forest Sprint, and is 1.5 seconds faster over the whole track. On my Freeroamotorway test route, the Daytona is 6 seconds faster than the Bone Shaker. The problem with the Bone Shaker is the crazy wet grip of the tyres that gains 4 seconds over the Daytona when you go from dry to wet, i.e. it goes from 1.5 secs faster to 2.5 secs slower. Because online racing is rarely guaranteed dry throughout, the Bone Shaker becomes the safe bet.

I have found another car that can fit in A class with rally tyres, that doesn't slow down in the wet, and can be given similar power and weight to the Bone Shaker, but I haven't yet managed to make it match the Bone Shaker's times. I've mentioned it to Rayne, so we'll see if he can make it challenge the Bone Shaker in the wet.
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