Rank: B-Class Racing License
#1 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 6:02:42 AM(UTC)
Does anyone out there want to share how they have successfully tuned their camber settings. I'm looking for a bit of a guide here.

I've recently gone around the track noting camber in entry/mid/exit but the settings I come out with are too low.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#2 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 6:41:02 AM(UTC)
Could be wrong but most adjust by feel and lap times

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#3 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 6:51:35 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: TorriderGull8 Go to Quoted Post
Could be wrong but most adjust by feel and lap times


Yeah that's what I'm currently doing but my camber stats via telemetry are just stupid

Rank: R-Class Racing License
#4 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 7:32:31 AM(UTC)
I have difficulty setting these in this game, in FM4 it was easy to generate differing tyre temperatures across the tyre surface by altering the camber angle, some information I had at the time stated that the inside shoulder should be roughly 10F higher than the outside shoulder when checking temperatures in the pits. The issue with FM5 is that I'm able to run stupid silly camber angles (3-4+) with absolutely no affect to the temperatures, similarly, the tyres seem to have a 230F ceiling no matter what pressure is used.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#5 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 7:59:10 AM(UTC)
1. Go to a flat track - Test Track Air Field is find is best since the 1R & 2R are very long
2. Set front camber to -0.5, rear at -0.5, caster at 5.0
3. Drive at good pace but NOT at 100%. About 95% where the tires are working hard but not making scrubbing noise and certainly not sliding/drifting.
4. Watch the camber angle DURING mid corner > this will show whether the caster is too heavy or too light. Note the front/rear camber angle during cornering. eg. +0.8/+0.5
5. For both front/rear, target about -0.5 in MID CORNER therefore new setting would be -0.5-0.8-0.5 / -0.5-0.5-0.5 = -1.8 / -1.5
6. Caster CAN add additional -ve camber by a small fraction and only in mid corner (about -0.1~-0.3 range) > increase if more aggressive cornering is desired but less gives better feel and smoothness
7. So if camber is changed, the caster should be checked. If caster is changed, then camber should be adjusted to compensate. Low camber and higher caster favours good braking+acceleration where higher camber and lower caster will favour fast cornering.
8. Check the tire temperature, as GTPChristianC has suggested above, to ensure the temperatures are relatively even.

That's the method I use; minimal guessing. Camber needs to be adjusted only AFTER spring rate & ARB set-up since those affect the camber greatly.

Updated 05/23/14.

Edited by user Friday, May 23, 2014 4:17:25 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

"Racing is life. Anything before or after . . . is just waiting." Steve McQueen, LeMans '71
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#6 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 8:03:06 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: GTPChristianC Go to Quoted Post
I have difficulty setting these in this game, in FM4 it was easy to generate differing tyre temperatures across the tyre surface by altering the camber angle, some information I had at the time stated that the inside shoulder should be roughly 10F higher than the outside shoulder when checking temperatures in the pits. The issue with FM5 is that I'm able to run stupid silly camber angles (3-4+) with absolutely no affect to the temperatures, similarly, the tyres seem to have a 230F ceiling no matter what pressure is used.


Another silly thing is (at least on the cars that I have tuned) that once the the tires have fully warmed up , the temperatures are similar I-M-O, making it impossible to obtain any meaningful feedback . . .

"Racing is life. Anything before or after . . . is just waiting." Steve McQueen, LeMans '71
Rank: On the Podium
#7 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 8:20:37 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: GRD 4 3L Go to Quoted Post
1. Go to a flat track - Test Track Air Field is find is best since the 1R & 2R are very long
2. Set front camber to -0.5, rear at -0.5, caster at 5.0
3. Drive at good pace but NOT at 100%. I would say about 90%.
4. Watch the camber angle DURING mid corner > this will show whether the caster is too heavy or too light. Note the front/rear camber angle during cornering. eg. -1.5/-0.5
5. For rear, target about 0.0 overall therefore new setting = -0.5 - 0.5 = -1.0.
6. Then caster of 5 - (-0.5 - 1.5) = 7.0 is the total angle required for the front.
7. So if camber is changed, the caster should be adjusted to compensate. If caster is changed, then camber should be adjusted to compensate. For FWD I think it would be best to have low camber and higher caster. For RWD, it may be better to have higher camber and lower caster.

That's the method I use; minimal guessing. Camber needs to be adjusted only AFTER spring rate & ARB set-up since those affect the camber greatly.


GRD, as always, some great tips for the community....especially for us beginners. Thanks!

You mentioned what to do with the Rear Camber and the Caster, thus, just to confirm the Front now becomes (-0.5-1.5 = -2.0) per your example? And, we want these numbers at the end to show as ZERO at those turns, correct?

Edited by user Thursday, May 1, 2014 8:21:57 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified



DJ Saoco
Rank: Driver's License
#8 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 8:44:13 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: GTPChristianC Go to Quoted Post
I have difficulty setting these in this game, in FM4 it was easy to generate differing tyre temperatures across the tyre surface by altering the camber angle, some information I had at the time stated that the inside shoulder should be roughly 10F higher than the outside shoulder when checking temperatures in the pits. The issue with FM5 is that I'm able to run stupid silly camber angles (3-4+) with absolutely no affect to the temperatures, similarly, the tyres seem to have a 230F ceiling no matter what pressure is used.


I noticed this aswell. It doesnt really matter what pressure you set the tires to or what camber you set, after 4-5 laps the temp will always settle in to about 230 and will be consistant across the surface. Makes it really difficult to accurately tune camber and pressure. With most races in the game being 3-4 laps it leads me to believe they tweeked the tire model to fit the career races. Any thing longer than that and the model seems to break down or at least the telemetry being presented does.

I've also noticed weird behavior from the stats in relation to camber paricularly but also when adjusting toe. As camber increases, acceleration and braking should get worse due to lack of contact patch in a straight line however according to the tuning stats the actually improve with increases to camber with multiple "sweet" spots where performance is peak. Makes me wonder if the suspension modeling is just broken or wasnt even designed to function realistically to begin with.
Rank: On the Podium
#9 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 9:46:55 AM(UTC)
Just use mega camber. Pretty simple really. I've tried lower camber on lb tunes and some of the open source stuff and cars feel too stiff and unresponsive.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#10 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 10:30:46 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RelaxedPRKid Go to Quoted Post

You mentioned what to do with the Rear Camber and the Caster, thus, just to confirm the Front now becomes (-0.5-1.5 = -2.0) per your example? And, we want these numbers at the end to show as ZERO at those turns, correct?


Well, all my tips are based on logic which does not ALWAYS apply in FM5. My target is to show zero or slightly negative. The method is repeatable as long as you are holding the steering steady.

Slightly annoying but more accurate way is to say "XBOX RECORD" then review the video one frame at a time. I hate doing it because it is cumbersome but it gives you the most accurate feedback.

Why can't I pause on telemetry screen and see the static telemetry readings? Having max/min/avg numbers would be of so much help.
"Racing is life. Anything before or after . . . is just waiting." Steve McQueen, LeMans '71
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#11 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 11:19:17 AM(UTC)
The camber shown in the telemetry screen shows the angle of the road to the surface of the tyre. So....

If I set my camber to -2.0 and take long turn and the telemetry says it's -3.00 then this is what happens.

I set camber to -1.0 and now that corner says -2.0.

If want to achieve 0.00 then I end up with positive camber settings.

Now, I've tuned the camber to get it very close to the desired 0.0 however the tyre feels grippy as hell without slip at all which actually make the car understeer and lack turn in. This isn't for the example above and didn't produce a positive camber this time by the way. I don't ever use positive camber.

Is there not a way to utilise that apparent grip feel without understeer.

Less tyre width maybe?

Edited by user Thursday, May 1, 2014 11:21:13 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#12 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 11:35:44 AM(UTC)
Having to use +ve camber means something else in suspension is not correct or caster may be off.

I would be inclined to keep the -ve camber for initial turn in response then relax the caster for mid corner grip. Similar to springs/arb combination - springs for initial turn in but arb for additional mid-corner support.

"Racing is life. Anything before or after . . . is just waiting." Steve McQueen, LeMans '71
Rank: Driver's License
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#13 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 11:55:59 AM(UTC)
I'm getting old, grand kids, old age issues, a grumpy cat, and trying to figure a way in to Heaven (I've led a sinful life). So I only have time to tune a very few cars on specific tracks, most of them older muscle cars that I always wanted as a young man. My methods suit me, but don't know if they will apply to you fellows or even make sense. Typically, after suspension is setup as properly as I am capable, I'll adjust camber and caster. My own method is to adjust the caster according to the track requirements, lower for sharp radius turns, maybe less so with long sweeping turns. Inevitably and regardless of the track , I'll usually end up with much higher camber and lower caster than most open source tunes that I've seen. I also tune strictly by feel and and pretty much disregard the telemetry data aside from air pressure, instead searching for that elusive 'sweet spot' that eventually shows up in time. Caster and camber are one of the last things I do for a base tune, then it's time to start over and begin anew... Dampers, caster, camber, rinse and repeat in small increments as there is always something that needs minute attention. On adjusting the camber higher, IMO, the car feels steadily worse but if you persist and keep adjusting higher, the handle will eventually come back, go a few 10ths past that and it gets worse again. Go back and that's your sweet spot for the suspension set you are running...

Caveat Emptor: I spend allot of time examining GRD's rear bumper on Rivals and rarely get to see the front, so he's probably got the best method, I just can't look at the telemetry and drive the car at the same time.

Regards,
PD
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#14 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 12:23:01 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PoorDogs Go to Quoted Post
I'm getting old, grand kids, old age issues, a grumpy cat, and trying to figure a way in to Heaven (I've led a sinful life). So I only have time to tune a very few cars on specific tracks, most of them older muscle cars that I always wanted as a young man. My methods suit me, but don't know if they will apply to you fellows or even make sense. Typically, after suspension is setup as properly as I am capable, I'll adjust camber and caster. My own method is to adjust the caster according to the track requirements, lower for sharp radius turns, maybe less so with long sweeping turns. Inevitably and regardless of the track , I'll usually end up with much higher camber and lower caster than most open source tunes that I've seen. I also tune strictly by feel and and pretty much disregard the telemetry data aside from air pressure, instead searching for that elusive 'sweet spot' that eventually shows up in time. Caster and camber are one of the last things I do for a base tune, then it's time to start over and begin anew... Dampers, caster, camber, rinse and repeat in small increments as there is always something that needs minute attention. On adjusting the camber higher, IMO, the car feels steadily worse but if you persist and keep adjusting higher, the handle will eventually come back, go a few 10ths past that and it gets worse again. Go back and that's your sweet spot for the suspension set you are running...

Caveat Emptor: I spend allot of time examining GRD's rear bumper on Rivals and rarely get to see the front, so he's probably got the best method, I just can't look at the telemetry and drive the car at the same time.


After going through all the analytics, I still have to make further adjustments so the car feels good. Actual road feel (based on real feedback) always trumps any analytics (based on many assumptions, some correct, some not).

Therefore your method is also very legitimate! I find tuning is like cooking; no matter how you cook it, it needs to taste good.

Humbled to be your Rivals target and hope you'll soon return the favour . . .
"Racing is life. Anything before or after . . . is just waiting." Steve McQueen, LeMans '71
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#15 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 1:25:15 PM(UTC)
Short and simple as for me and most of the people i know we run as stated above mega camber. I start my car off with a -3.5 front and a -3.0 on the rear. I usually wont touch those numbers again until im near the end of my tune. If i do touch them its usually just a .2 difference from the starting point.
Rank: On the Podium
#16 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 2:10:14 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ERS JOHNSON Go to Quoted Post
Short and simple as for me and most of the people i know we run as stated above mega camber. I start my car off with a -3.5 front and a -3.0 on the rear. I usually wont touch those numbers again until im near the end of my tune. If i do touch them its usually just a .2 difference from the starting point.


Shhh!! That's too specific. It must be proven mathematically or logically or whatever first.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#17 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 3:10:54 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ERS JOHNSON Go to Quoted Post
Short and simple as for me and most of the people i know we run as stated above mega camber. I start my car off with a -3.5 front and a -3.0 on the rear. I usually wont touch those numbers again until im near the end of my tune. If i do touch them its usually just a .2 difference from the starting point.


Shhh!! That's too specific. It must be proven mathematically or logically or whatever first.

!
"Racing is life. Anything before or after . . . is just waiting." Steve McQueen, LeMans '71
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#18 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 3:19:14 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ERS JOHNSON Go to Quoted Post
Short and simple as for me and most of the people i know we run as stated above mega camber. I start my car off with a -3.5 front and a -3.0 on the rear. I usually wont touch those numbers again until im near the end of my tune. If i do touch them its usually just a .2 difference from the starting point.


Shhh!! That's too specific. It must be proven mathematically or logically or whatever first.


Hahaaaa... to late. What can i say i like when the community as a whole can get faster. More competition is what i like. I will keep some of the other secrets to myself lol.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#19 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 3:28:06 PM(UTC)
For me there's not much pattern really. Some cars just seem to suck up more camber than others. I usually start in the mid -2 range and work up or down from there based on cornering, feel and overall lap time. The F/R bias is also an element affecting performance. It's easy to overthink this stuff. The trick is to work with the game rather than try to impose real world expectations on it. Generally you'll know when you've found the sweet spot because the car will just plain go faster and do everything a little better.
Rank: Racing Legend
#20 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 3:35:54 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: GTPChristianC Go to Quoted Post
I have difficulty setting these in this game, in FM4 it was easy to generate differing tyre temperatures across the tyre surface by altering the camber angle, some information I had at the time stated that the inside shoulder should be roughly 10F higher than the outside shoulder when checking temperatures in the pits. The issue with FM5 is that I'm able to run stupid silly camber angles (3-4+) with absolutely no affect to the temperatures, similarly, the tyres seem to have a 230F ceiling no matter what pressure is used.


I find that between 2 and 3 degrees is where I will see the outer edge drop temp significantly from inner edge (but I must be about 3 laps into the test drive and run the new settings for a lap).
I blame the ants.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#21 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 3:37:12 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: WearyMick Go to Quoted Post
For me there's not much pattern really. Some cars just seem to suck up more camber than others. I usually start in the mid -2 range and work up or down from there based on cornering, feel and overall lap time. The F/R bias is also an element affecting performance. It's easy to overthink this stuff. The trick is to work with the game rather than try to impose real world expectations on it. Generally you'll know when you've found the sweet spot because the car will just plain go faster and do everything a little better.


agreed. I dont really have a method to what i do except for the quick flash tune i will throw on every car. After that let the car tell you what it wants not the other way around.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#22 Posted : Thursday, May 1, 2014 10:51:32 PM(UTC)
Turn 10. Please replace telemetry screens with some lovely pictures of bongos. They have always had a more closely related affiliation with cars than your telemetry has.

Thank you
Rank: Driver's Permit
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#23 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2015 7:08:42 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: GRD 4 3L Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: GTPChristianC Go to Quoted Post
I have difficulty setting these in this game, in FM4 it was easy to generate differing tyre temperatures across the tyre surface by altering the camber angle, some information I had at the time stated that the inside shoulder should be roughly 10F higher than the outside shoulder when checking temperatures in the pits. The issue with FM5 is that I'm able to run stupid silly camber angles (3-4+) with absolutely no affect to the temperatures, similarly, the tyres seem to have a 230F ceiling no matter what pressure is used.


Another silly thing is (at least on the cars that I have tuned) that once the the tires have fully warmed up , the temperatures are similar I-M-O, making it impossible to obtain any meaningful feedback . . .



Although it's got no bearing on tuning, I was curious and found another silly thing. Apparently the ambient temperature at the track (which you see reported during one of the last startup screens before the race starts) has absolutely no bearing on tire temperature. If you're curious and want to see this, try doing this:

1. Go to a track that has a warm temperature, like Yas Marina (91 degrees Fahrenheit).
2. Take your car out to the track.
3. When the race starts, turn on the tire telemetry and just let the car sit there.

The temps will start out at 120, so you're given a little bit of a head start on the tires warming up, apparently. As you're not moving the tires will start to cool off. Now logically, once they reach the ambient temperature, which at Yas Marina is 91, the tires should stop cooling off, as they will have reached equilibrium with their environment. However, regardless of the supposed temperature at the track, the floor for the tire temperature seems to be about 70 degrees Fahrenheit. Apparently there is a little invisible man blowing cold air on the tires. :)

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