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Rank: Racing Permit
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#1 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 12:39:37 PM(UTC)
-One or two of the lead cars pull easily pull away from everyone else, and seem impossible to catch up.

-Around the halfway mark, I start to catch up with the lead car(s) despite driving no differently.

-I overtake them and start to build a good lead at the front.

-Around the 80-90% mark, a few cars appear out of nowhere, gaining ground on me in an impossibly quick manner. The final corner usually has an AI attempting to pass me, who has suddently developed freakishy good grip and the inability to be slowed down by terrain or objects.



Seriously, so many races are like this, especially the offroad races. It's getting very tedious and it seems like the entire first 2/3rds of the race mean virtually nothing because of the rubberbanding/scripting/whatever...
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#2 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 12:45:18 PM(UTC)
yet it takes what could be a boring finish and adds some excitement. if you prefer less of the challenge just lower the difficulty. or raise the difficulty and finish 2nd or 3rd which will also help when you go online and match up with some faster drivers.
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#3 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 1:02:22 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: XCELRATE Go to Quoted Post
yet it takes what could be a boring finish and adds some excitement. if you prefer less of the challenge just lower the difficulty. or raise the difficulty and finish 2nd or 3rd which will also help when you go online and match up with some faster drivers.


I dunno, a close finish doesn't feel as exciting when you know it's been scripted to happen
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#4 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 1:09:06 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: nemesis464 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: XCELRATE Go to Quoted Post
yet it takes what could be a boring finish and adds some excitement. if you prefer less of the challenge just lower the difficulty. or raise the difficulty and finish 2nd or 3rd which will also help when you go online and match up with some faster drivers.


I dunno, a close finish doesn't feel as exciting when you know it's been scripted to happen


Do they race again, this time work on hitting the Apex, you'll find they only close when you aren't actually running as fast as you thought you were.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#5 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 1:24:23 PM(UTC)
I've seen the same behavior and in fact on circuits my last lap is usually my fastest yet I still see this behavior. In general they don't catch me but they get close if I make a mistake. There is definitely some funky AI.

In FH3 and in FM7 on standard races I can win every race against Highly Skilled or most races against Expert drivatars using cars with no tuning. With proper tuning of the best car for the track I can win every race against Expert level and most against Pro. Yet in FH4 I'm struggling to beat Highly Skilled consistently on Road racing, rarely on Dirt and never in Cross Country.

It's not like my skills have disappeared on FH4 so it's not a "Drive better" scenario. Something in the AI on this game is different and it sucks including the behavior described on this thread title.
The gamer tag is accurate. It's how I've made a living for about 30 years, however I wish was racing cars instead. Sigh
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#6 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 1:36:17 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: CRracer 912 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: nemesis464 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: XCELRATE Go to Quoted Post
yet it takes what could be a boring finish and adds some excitement. if you prefer less of the challenge just lower the difficulty. or raise the difficulty and finish 2nd or 3rd which will also help when you go online and match up with some faster drivers.


I dunno, a close finish doesn't feel as exciting when you know it's been scripted to happen


Do they race again, this time work on hitting the Apex, you'll find they only close when you aren't actually running as fast as you thought you were.


That simply isn’t the case. There is no explanation except rubberbanding for the drivatars massively catching up in the final quarter.

The AI performance drastically differs throughout the race and it’s not even subtle
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#7 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 1:47:22 PM(UTC)
Do a race in an upgraded D100 Peel P50 on Unbeatable. Even if the starting lineup glitches in some PI 200+ cars you'll win by a margin that you wouldn't be able to if it was actually rubberband AI.
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#8 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 2:24:13 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Ti Hsien Go to Quoted Post
Do a race in an upgraded D100 Peel P50 on Unbeatable. Even if the starting lineup glitches in some PI 200+ cars you'll win by a margin that you wouldn't be able to if it was actually rubberband AI.


So are you trying to say there’s no rubberbanding in the game?
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#9 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 6:09:46 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: nemesis464 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CRracer 912 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: nemesis464 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: XCELRATE Go to Quoted Post
yet it takes what could be a boring finish and adds some excitement. if you prefer less of the challenge just lower the difficulty. or raise the difficulty and finish 2nd or 3rd which will also help when you go online and match up with some faster drivers.


I dunno, a close finish doesn't feel as exciting when you know it's been scripted to happen


Do they race again, this time work on hitting the Apex, you'll find they only close when you aren't actually running as fast as you thought you were.


That simply isn’t the case. There is no explanation except rubberbanding for the drivatars massively catching up in the final quarter.

The AI performance drastically differs throughout the race and it’s not even subtle


There's no rubberbanding, sorry. I've tested it multiple times.

Edited by user Thursday, October 11, 2018 6:10:21 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's License
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#10 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 6:31:01 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: nemesis464 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CRracer 912 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: nemesis464 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: XCELRATE Go to Quoted Post
yet it takes what could be a boring finish and adds some excitement. if you prefer less of the challenge just lower the difficulty. or raise the difficulty and finish 2nd or 3rd which will also help when you go online and match up with some faster drivers.


I dunno, a close finish doesn't feel as exciting when you know it's been scripted to happen


Do they race again, this time work on hitting the Apex, you'll find they only close when you aren't actually running as fast as you thought you were.


That simply isn’t the case. There is no explanation except rubberbanding for the drivatars massively catching up in the final quarter.

The AI performance drastically differs throughout the race and it’s not even subtle


There's no rubberbanding, sorry. I've tested it multiple times.


There is. I've crashed. And still caught up within seconds. It rubberbanded me in my favor. Rubberbanding is pretty bad, I haven't tested it the other way but I'd guess it's there. And they all race the exact same in every race. They don't race each other. No one ever passes anyone else. It's as if there on a roller coaster track.
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#11 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 6:35:55 PM(UTC)
there's no rubberbanding , drivatars have the track as their no1 priority even before the opponent , so with more leniency to sacrifice speed , they get faster , more clean corners than you do, thus saving more acceleration time once they exit , so when you're at 1st and drop half a second on a corner , an obstacle or trying to dodge a spin out for example , their seconds start to add up ,so at the end you'd notice they're too close for comfort , but with better cornering and track knowledge they tend to stay withing the gap you already created.

drivatars have received a noticeable cornering buff in FH4 , small circuits on unbeatable are a complete nightmare.

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#12 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 6:42:34 PM(UTC)
A fair few people have said similar things, so their may be something to it. It might also be difficulty related I race regularly on the higher difficulty’s pro/unbeatable and the ai is consistent through out
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#13 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 7:20:22 PM(UTC)
I love complaints about drivatars on pro/expert/unbeatabe difficulty. Even if there is some sort of rubberbanding (which there is, I've tested it multiple times on Goliath) it's for the purpose of difficulty. You don't want the drivatars catching up to you if you make the smallest mistake? Lower the difficulty. I expect unbeatable drivatars to rubber band as well as have amazing cornering speed and what not. It makes it fun and makes you a better racer by making you drive perfect.
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#14 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:43:43 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Shootahhh Go to Quoted Post

There is. I've crashed. And still caught up within seconds. It rubberbanded me in my favor. Rubberbanding is pretty bad, I haven't tested it the other way but I'd guess it's there. And they all race the exact same in every race. They don't race each other. No one ever passes anyone else. It's as if there on a roller coaster track.


They slow down, but they do not speed up. So if anything, all it does is help you, and if you can't catch up, that's on you.
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#15 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 9:11:56 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: nemesis464 Go to Quoted Post

So are you trying to say there’s no rubberbanding in the game?


I'm saying that there are repeatable scenarios that prove it either doesn't exist or is very minimal. From both a winning position and a losing one.
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#16 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 10:32:23 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Ti Hsien Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: nemesis464 Go to Quoted Post

So are you trying to say there’s no rubberbanding in the game?


I'm saying that there are repeatable scenarios that prove it either doesn't exist or is very minimal. From both a winning position and a losing one.


And I could provide a number of scenarios that clearly show it’s in the game.
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#17 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 10:50:15 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: nemesis464 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Ti Hsien Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: nemesis464 Go to Quoted Post

So are you trying to say there’s no rubberbanding in the game?


I'm saying that there are repeatable scenarios that prove it either doesn't exist or is very minimal. From both a winning position and a losing one.


And I could provide a number of scenarios that clearly show it’s in the game.


Please do so.
Rank: Driver's License
#18 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2018 12:12:38 AM(UTC)
Yes, like others peoples saying here, if you don't support to be beat by IA, lower the difficulty, simple as that ! For me it's a very good point to have good IA on Expert/Pro/Unbeatable, it's push me to be better and it's a very good test to see if my setup for my car is good or not ! And the weather and the nature of the ground is an important thing to take in consideration, in the past it was possible to win in the mud with a car not setup for that (with difficulty sometimes but it was possible in past FH) but now it's very difficult and it's important to prepare his car in the good way. It's take time for sure but it will help you to be better and of course, a good learning of the race help too. I don't want an easy game just to gratify my ego and I'm sure no ones here want that.

Sorry if I look a bit too agressive or other, english is not my first language :-)
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#19 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2018 12:27:11 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: XCELRATE Go to Quoted Post
yet it takes what could be a boring finish and adds some excitement. if you prefer less of the challenge just lower the difficulty. or raise the difficulty and finish 2nd or 3rd which will also help when you go online and match up with some faster drivers.

I prefer the excitement of a tough but fair race, something the AI cannot deliver. When it comes to Forza AI, I don't know it any other way. I joined 2016 with FM6 and FH2 and played any Forza title available for Xbox One in depth by now. The AI experience hasn't changed much there.

Rubberbanding is part of it (both ways), most noticeable in Dirt Racing and Goliath races (unbeatable). In current snow Dirt Races, the AI has problems to move through snowed roads (no offroad tires?) unless... you're way ahead. Then all of a sudden the chasing car gets wings and just roars past you with at least 20mph more than you (must have been an incredible draft chain of that driver)...
Similar things happen in Goliath with long straights. Once you know the road by heart and do long races, you can play against unbeatable, usually in X class cars with extreme speeds. Here the rubberbanding often results in funny freak accidents :D (Whoops, 375 mph at the end of the straight, AI? Good luck, breaking!)

@nemesis464:
If you want decent AI with no rubberbanding, give Gran Turismo Sport a try. You got qualifying and the AI drives very consistent and more life-like. If you lead, you will keep leading till you make a mistake. Same goes for harder difficulties. The AI drives really good but it's always fair - if you're driving badly however, you won't magically catch up - you probably will be rounded instead if the race is long enough ;)

While clearing the map I suggest to use lower AI settings, it's less frustrating and better for your wallet. Strangely enough, it makes you a better & cleaner driver too as you don't have to resort to bump tactics to beat the AI on the low lap courses.

Once familiar with routes and races, increase both AI and lap number to get more challenge out of solo races.

Edited by user Friday, October 12, 2018 2:28:09 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#20 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2018 1:55:25 AM(UTC)
There is rubber banding / unfair A.I/ wonky physics for A.I, whatever you want to call it, 100% in my mind.

Of all the races I have done on FH 4 so far, I have come in second place twice.

Do I run the perfect race every time ?, No.
Are there a point (Easy on a sprint race), where i know if i'm not at a certain position in the grid at a certain point in the race, I cant win, yep.

The first part of the race, goes one of two ways but the end result is always the same;

Good start, go outside of A.I cars, group of 2/4 cars always pull away,
Poor start, race through middle of grid easy and midway through race be up against the pack of 2/4 cars that have pulled away.

Midway to final part;
Work you way through leading pack, till there is just one out in front.

Final part:
Over take the final car, and then the A.I will stay close but never really threaten and you win.


Or there is also an alternative "blueprint"/ "template" that races go;

Good start, outside A.i pass most, carry way too much speed into the first corner, use cars in 3rd and 4th to slow down, very quickly catch and over take 1st and 2nd, have 1st sit close but never really threatening the rest of the race.

These three story lines are repeated in every single race I have had on FH4, I never really feel my driving abilities are 100% the decider in winning a race.
I started on Highly skilled and was asked to move up and up, etc, now drive on unbeatable.

Edited by user Friday, October 12, 2018 1:57:22 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#21 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2018 2:19:33 AM(UTC)
I've noticed some oddities.

Last night, I set up 20 laps of one of the short tracks in Edinburgh. I was within three tenths on all of my laps, and was a second up on the fastest lap in the chasing pack. All my lap times were at least a second faster.

They finished six seconds behind me. Maths is not my strongest point, but that strikes me as odd!
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#22 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2018 2:34:58 AM(UTC)
I was very much in the 'there's no rubberbanding in FH4' camp and it's definitely not like it was in FH3, but in some occasions I have seen the AI change their driving behaviour based on the player. Two races showed it more clearly than most.

Firstly a 15 lap race on one of the Edinburgh road courses, anything goes in a standard BMW M1 on unbeatable. I was in the lead by lap 3 and raced more or less flawlessly for the rest of the race, by the end I had a lead of around 20 seconds... until the last lap. Upon crossing the finish line it went to the results screen where I could see the running order and best laps, I didn't have the outright best lap but it was marginal, then the AI crossed the finish line to complete the race and suddenly I had the slowest 'best lap' of the race with one car that finished in 7th setting a best lap more than 5 seconds faster than mine. The AI finished only 16 -20 seconds behind, meaning the 11 other cars finished within 4 seconds of each other. It may no difference to the outcome and the fact remained that I'd won the race comfortably, but it was interesting nonetheless that the game seemed to boost the AI in the final lap to make it look less of a walkover.

The biggest adjustment I saw though was on the quarry cross country course, here I setup an anything goes 30 lapper in heavy rain on unbeatable. I was in a standard Jeep Trackhawk and got a very lucky grid as there were no off-road vehicles amongst the AI line-up. I was in first by the first hairpin and was a good 4-5 seconds ahead by the end of the first lap. Again I made no mistakes and was expecting to have the AI lapped several times over the 29 remaining laps (the AI was really struggling for grip and hopeless over the jumps running cars like standard Lotus Exiges for example). However by lap 5 I was about 20 seconds ahead and the AI seemingly just shook off all their problems and instantly matched my pace, they did this for the entire rest of the race, all tightly bunched together without any further problems. This was as clear a blatant adjustment of their driving ability that I've seen, again it made no difference to the outcome and I suspect had I had a big crash, once they closed in on me they'd have gone back to complete incompetence almost immediately.

In Co-op however I've noticed that this doesn't work the same, I've joined a couple of co-op events with multiple laps and ended up lapping the majority of the AI (almost like I was considered an outlier and they were only concerned with being matched to the host of the event). I've also not really seen any dodgy behaviour as mentioned by others in short races or sprints, it's just dependant on how I drive and what car they're in. If I drive perfectly then I win 9 times out of 10 with the other time being a lead drivatar that got a good start and had a great car for the event.
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#23 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2018 2:39:33 AM(UTC)
It's nice to see others have noticed the poor AI as well. I raced a blueprint race (Moneyball @ 50 laps) on 'inexperienced' difficulty and throughout the entire race had 2 drivatars within 2 secs of me. On lap 48/50 I missed a checkpoint, respawned in 11th place and finished the race in 6th. Kind of defeats the whole point of having difficulty settings.
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#24 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2018 9:02:12 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: nemesis464 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Ti Hsien Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: nemesis464 Go to Quoted Post

So are you trying to say there’s no rubberbanding in the game?


I'm saying that there are repeatable scenarios that prove it either doesn't exist or is very minimal. From both a winning position and a losing one.


And I could provide a number of scenarios that clearly show it’s in the game.


Please do so.


Normally I wouldn't respond to you because I've you trolling with the blind fanboy persona in multiple threads, but I'll bite.

You want me to go and video myself doing circuit races where I maintain similar lap times throughout, but the AI speed is dramatically different?

Just yesterday I had a race where the average AI 2nd lap time was around 1:30 then jumped to 1:15 on the last lap.


Don't be so naive. Rubberbanding has been a staple in the Forza franchise, they're not going to take it out randomly for this one.
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#25 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2018 1:13:23 PM(UTC)
In response to all of this, you can also sometimes defending by blocking them if they do catch up, typically the A.I. will slow down if you get in their way.

But as other suggested you may have to do some tuning if you play unbeatable or pro.
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