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#51 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 4:51:33 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: xPray 4 Deathx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: latotheX Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Hieronymus1967 Go to Quoted Post
Cheaters will get their comeuppance in due course.

Games such as this with an in-game economy require money sinks to either take game currency out of the system or prevent additional currency entering it. If players sold their cars to the game, the game would be creating new credits that then add to the overall pool of currency instead of merely moving currency from one player to another as happens when a car is sold via auction.
Selling cars back works fine in MS 7. Don’t know any reason that it would work differently just because it is Horizon.



Curious about this, Hieronymus care to answer if you could? I too dont understand the credit sink and would like to understand it please. thank you.


I'll try once more to explain what's going on and hopefully why, though recent experience indicates that a lot of newer players to the franchise are going to happily tell you how wrong are my explanations. Ludicrous I believe is the term used.

In a real-world economy, one that functions well at lest, the total money supply is controlled. New fiat currency is printed/minted on a regular basis and old currency is removed. In the case of the US, currency is actually physically destroyed via shredding. Creation of new and destruction/removal of old generally equal each other out so that the overall money supply remains somewhat stable and fixed. This is a necessary condition as it leads to the overall stability of the economy, allowing for measured growth and increased investor confidence, There's a reason some two thirds of US currency resides in deposit outside the US, people trust in its stability.

In very general principle, for every new unit of currency added, there needs to be an offsetting removal from the total money supply to help control the rate of inflation. Inflation being where price level of goods and services rises over time, reducing the buying power of currency. Unchecked, inflation can turn into hyperinflation where the price of goods and services skyrockets as the value of currency divebombs.

How does this pertain to Forza? The Forza Central Bank (the game itself) prints/creates new currency at a breakneck pace each day. Every race that awards credits, every wheelspin that awards credits, every daily payout that awards credits, all of these are credits printed/created by the Central Bank and dumped into the economy. Hence the need for gold/money sinks. Currency needs to be removed from the total money supply via regular means to prevent the inevitable hyperinflation.

That's why there are fixed gold/credit sinks such as the fee skimmed off each auction, the cost of upgrade parts, the introduction of expensive houses. Then we have partial sinks in something like fast travel that comes with a fee that can reduce to zero through progression. And finally, a sort of inverse sink in the reward cars that cannot be sold back to the game itself. These cars have no direct credit value because they cannot be sold/exchanged back to game for full or partial value of buying one new. You can, theoretically, earn something from them by auctioning them off, or as suggested by someone, taking advantage of their associated perks (this is a very good idea!), but otherwise they have no value and you cannot get credits for them this time around.

All of these are design choices by the developers, some of them have been in the games before and proven to work, some are new and we'll have to see how they pan out. Either way, they no doubt consulted professional economists when creating this economy and will continue to do so and make adjustments in future titles.

Edited by user Thursday, October 11, 2018 5:10:25 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#52 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 4:55:57 AM(UTC)
For those that want to see examples of runaway hyperinflation wherein governments tried to print their way out of trouble by vastly increasing the money supply, see below:

The Wiemar Republic in Germany, 1923

Or for more recent examples,

Modern day Zimbabwe and Venezuela.

Increasing the money supply without any subsequent controls leads to disaster.

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#53 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 5:12:09 AM(UTC)
But it's not real money. Like in every game we will end up with 50 million CR and nothing to buy anymore. It's inevitable. Money is just the means of progression through the available content. And in FH4 there is even less of that, because you get basically all the cars except 30 just from wheelspins. You don't even get duplicates until you have around 400 cars in your garage (or if you bought one at the Autoshow that then turns up in a wheelspin). I got 300 wheelspins from the cheap Forzathon store at launch alone. In a game where the maximum of prices on the auction house for the general player is at a very low level, how would prices even inflate? If you have money in a Forza game, you quickly realize how pointless it actually is. And why even take out the ability to buy wheelspins with CR? The bank always wins. It was an easy and effective method to reduce the existing credits in the game. Now with the clothing items it could be much more effective. Or just sell clothing items like the crowns for 10 million each. There's a lot of ways to reduce the money that is circulating ingame, but it was chosen not to use any of them. Makes no sense to me.
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#54 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 5:21:04 AM(UTC)
Inflation is inevitable in any Forza title. The developers try different things to help keep it in check and the overall economy viable as long as they can but eventually we'll get to a point a six months from now or a year from now where everyone left playing is filthy rich with nothing left to buy with their worthless credits.

The short answer to the OP's question as to why we can't sell reward cars back to the game is simple. While it was possible in previous titles, the developers went a different direction this time. Perhaps they'll bring it back for the next title, we'll have to wait and see.

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#55 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 5:23:29 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Hieronymus1967 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: xPray 4 Deathx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: latotheX Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Hieronymus1967 Go to Quoted Post
Cheaters will get their comeuppance in due course.

Games such as this with an in-game economy require money sinks to either take game currency out of the system or prevent additional currency entering it. If players sold their cars to the game, the game would be creating new credits that then add to the overall pool of currency instead of merely moving currency from one player to another as happens when a car is sold via auction.
Selling cars back works fine in MS 7. Don’t know any reason that it would work differently just because it is Horizon.



Curious about this, Hieronymus care to answer if you could? I too don't understand the credit sink and would like to understand it please. thank you.


I'll try once more to explain what's going on and hopefully why, though recent experience indicates that a lot of newer players to the franchise are going to happily tell you how wrong are my explanations. Ludicrous I believe is the term used.


I used said word & I can assure you I am not new to this franchise. Talking of credits being created out of nothing, I get £350,000 - £425,000 (I think) for Horizon 4 every week just from logging into Forza Hub.

This shouldn't be how it is & as much as I really do love this game, it's being let down by a few major flaws (this one for me being the worst unfortunately).

Anyway, first World problems, I hope everyone has a lovely day. :)

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#56 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 6:50:17 AM(UTC)
The problem isn't the auction house, it's the biased system which heavily favors the artist. Everyone should be able to sell a car for the same amount. What's on a car for paint shouldn't dictate what an individual can sell it for. If someone wants to pay the same price for a top notch paintjob by a legend painter or a car with pink dots bein sold by Joe Schmoe then that's ok. As far as the rediculous prices go, this isn't FM2. That kind of painter/tuner community doesn't exist anymore, I mean there still is one but not like FM2. I've played all Forza games since FM2 and they are getting worse and worse. As far as exploits go, those are the developers/bug testers fault. If they are in the game they can't punish the players who have spent REAL money for using them. I bought to Triumph Spitfires in the AH for the 200k perk, one was used and I don't think spending 23 skill points is worth it. I can't even remove them from my garage to trash em and I can't auction them because I'm limited to how many auctions I can have daily. Somethings gotta give because as you see from the players, this [Mod Edit] ain't workin.

Edited by user Thursday, October 11, 2018 7:10:12 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#57 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 7:52:53 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Hieronymus1967 Go to Quoted Post
Your cap is not the same as that of a legendary painter or tuner. Experience would indicate that they'll price all of us out of the market soon enough.



And whose stupid idea was it to continue that practice? The legendary painters and tuners were a cancer in FH3.

I'd prefer to just go back to the marketplaces where you could buy paints and tunes directly from the sellers, instead of this free idea they saddled us with since FM5 (which let's be frank, has been on a huge decline in this console generation)

Quote:
As far as the rediculous prices go, this isn't FM2. That kind of painter/tuner community doesn't exist anymore, I mean there still is one but not like FM2.
Specifically because of the changes made in FM5. They killed their own vibrant community.

Quote:
Remove the auction house entirely and solve a whole lot of problems with one fell swoop.
That's a dumb solution. The AH in FM2, FM3, and FM4 were just fine. It's when they started this AIDS about free paints and tunes is where the problem came in. Revert that change to full marketplaces, and the problem is solved.

Edited by user Thursday, October 11, 2018 7:57:02 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#58 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:33:59 AM(UTC)
Well some people think that painters should be allowed greater compensation than the regular folk that dawn their paint on their cars and race with them. They're is alot of amazing painters and there isn't anything wrong with them making credits but are the players playing for the paints? I don't think so. The painters are just enjoying another aspect of the game. If they are doin it just for creds then move along and paint somewhere else. If they are doin it because they are true artists and just enjoy painting and seein others enjoy what they've created then Forza is the game for them. It is a game that they are playing after all.
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#59 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 9:16:15 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DURDENS WRATH Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Hieronymus1967 Go to Quoted Post
Your cap is not the same as that of a legendary painter or tuner. Experience would indicate that they'll price all of us out of the market soon enough.



And whose stupid idea was it to continue that practice? The legendary painters and tuners were a cancer in FH3.

I'd prefer to just go back to the marketplaces where you could buy paints and tunes directly from the sellers, instead of this free idea they saddled us with since FM5 (which let's be frank, has been on a huge decline in this console generation)

Quote:
As far as the rediculous prices go, this isn't FM2. That kind of painter/tuner community doesn't exist anymore, I mean there still is one but not like FM2.
Specifically because of the changes made in FM5. They killed their own vibrant community.

Quote:
Remove the auction house entirely and solve a whole lot of problems with one fell swoop.
That's a dumb solution. The AH in FM2, FM3, and FM4 were just fine. It's when they started this AIDS about free paints and tunes is where the problem came in. Revert that change to full marketplaces, and the problem is solved.

God how I miss the days of motorsport 4. By far the best to date. Bought the deluxe and everything. That game was so perfect. The top painters tuners etc were rewarded with unicorn cars and the storefront was a really innovative idea that allowed people to make money directly from the paint without having to purchase the car with it.
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#60 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 9:39:01 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Hieronymus1967 Go to Quoted Post
The history of all Forza titles to date indicates that while money sinks try to slow inevitable inflation, they're only marginally successful the longer the game has a healthy player base. The car that's worth 10k today is worth 100k next month, 1mil the month after that, 10mil the month after that and so on. Credits enter the economy at an exponential rate due to millions of players racing, receiving credits as wheelspins, payouts for player generated content, rewards, etc., and so some of that currency has to be removed.

We're soon going to see plenty of threads wherein people are complaining that they can't compete in auctions against wealthy players and that it's somehow unfair that legendary painters and tuners can sell their cars for more in the auction house. You can set your watch to this eventuality. If there were no money sinks, we'd get to that point far quicker and with far worse results.

Virtual economies are real things in games and they're part and parcel of the design of Forza titles.



No one's saying you need to remove money sinks, but at least allow us to clean up our garage and get something in return for it. Even if its Forzathon points or something. Maybe allow us to recieve a certain amount of wheelspins based on a cumulative amount of vehicle worth where in you can bank the total amount of vehicle worth into a separate pool. Based off of that secondary pool of points/credits, say for example 1 free wheel spin for every $500K of vehicle returns and if I have $1 Million worth of vehicles returned I can then claim 2 wheel spins. You are still creating a money sink with some returns so the player doesn't feel exploited or cheated.
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#61 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 11:37:56 PM(UTC)
Sorry, i couldn't read through the whole thread.., the 1st page gave me a headache of all the excuses being made FOR NOT ADDING A FEATURE THAT FH3 HAD... Should i take a Screenshot next time i get the option to quick sell a car (from a wheelspin) that i ALREADY OWN??? You take a feature away from the previous game, but then u expect us to believe all the mumbo-jumbo excuses about removing it🤔 ...The Lovely New Pink & Glitter Dresses, Shoes, Vests, Joggers, Tights & Crowns just compounds the frustration about this issue 🤦🏻‍♂️

Edited by user Monday, October 15, 2018 11:38:38 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

My Forza Timeline:
•FH3-Start my Forza Career
•FH2-My hunger for more Horizon
•FM5-Free with XB Live Gold
•FH4-End my Forza Career
•FM6-Free with XB Live Gold
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#62 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:31:02 AM(UTC)
I've received a lot of duplicate low tier cars from wheelspins, Beetles and the like that cost 20k or 25k from the autoshow. These will never sell on the AH, or at least it seems rare enough that the time it takes me to post auctions and then retrieve them and post again when they inevitably do not sell is a waste compared to just doing a race.

I'd like to see an option to sell these cars for dirt cheap just so I can clean up my garage and not feel like I'm getting nothing. I'd rather get $1000 from a wheelspin than some low tier car duplicate that cannot sell. I'd suggest adding an option to sell a car for 1/4 the minimum auction house bid for that car.
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#63 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:34:09 AM(UTC)
Every time when i get duplicate car i go to perks and spent enough skill points to get that wheelspin and then i just remove the car. This way i got yesterday 250k for beetle.
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#64 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:37:49 AM(UTC)
It's been discussed, there is no other option... comply with it... resistance is futile.

Sometimes I wrestle with my demons... sometimes, we just snuggle.
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#65 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2018 11:54:20 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SprungBoss9964 Go to Quoted Post
Every time when i get duplicate car i go to perks and spent enough skill points to get that wheelspin and then i just remove the car. This way i got yesterday 250k for beetle.


Ah, someone else is smart about this. Can also grab any influence perk from the vehicle before removing to boost your level as will.
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#66 Posted : Wednesday, October 17, 2018 10:33:01 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Hieronymus1967 Go to Quoted Post
The inability to sell cars directly is a money sink to slow the rate of inflation.



No it isn't.

I have a Cobra sitting in my garage that cost me nothing. That's pretty much the opposite of a money sink.

I can't sell it. That's also now not a money sink.

I can BUY from the game - now THAT is a money sink, because I'm...y'know sinking money into the game.

You seem to have read this phrase somewhere and thought it applied to every currency transaction....

Edited by user Wednesday, October 17, 2018 10:38:16 PM(UTC)  | Reason: scriptsafe b0rked

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#67 Posted : Wednesday, October 17, 2018 10:55:23 PM(UTC)
YES it is!

You can't make money out of it, therefore it is a money sink.
You're particular single experience is not applicable to the game as a whole which has various money sinks to slow inflation. Just because it doesn't apply in ONE situation you're thinking it doesn't apply in any. That is a logical fallacy and that's why it's wrong.
Whatever happened to critical thinking?
Please try and see beyond YOUR experience of them game and see how it is gamewide! Otherwise you're speaking from a position of ignorance, willfull or not.
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#68 Posted : Wednesday, October 17, 2018 11:40:03 PM(UTC)
Quote:
Whatever happened to critical thinking?


I wonder.

edit - actually, I don't wonder. I can't be bothered. The moment someone trots out the phrase "critical thinking", I view it as a combination red flag and idiot filter. It's like someone wearing heelies, or a car with "Baby on board" in the back window, or someone with a face tattoo.

I find it best to ignore them.

Have a nice day :)

Edited by user Wednesday, October 17, 2018 11:56:47 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#69 Posted : Thursday, October 18, 2018 6:29:26 AM(UTC)
Clearly you lack critical thinking. You basically just called me an idiot despite there being TOS and COC which state don't attack other users!
If you can't be bothered to think before you speak you open yourself up to all sorts of problems.

Edited by user Thursday, October 18, 2018 6:30:17 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#70 Posted : Thursday, October 18, 2018 6:35:41 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Hieronymus1967 Go to Quoted Post
Cheaters will get their comeuppance in due course.


I can tell you flat out 100% this is not true.

A friend of mine, has "hacked" in 100 million, 250 million and 300 million (totaling 650 million credits), his gamertag can still access to online play and Auction House absolutely fine.

if this is his "comeuppance", good lord help us.

Not to mention the 1,000's of people running round with 2 +stars after abusing a certain glitch...
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#71 Posted : Thursday, October 18, 2018 6:46:17 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DnB mclovin Go to Quoted Post


Not to mention the 1,000's of people running round with 2 +stars after abusing a certain glitch...


And right there is one of the effects the glitch users have had on other people. I am now somewhere around level 2*30, and have done it solely through lots of legitimate play. However, there will be those who see that level and will assume I used the glitch.

Something to bear in mind next time a cheater claims that their cheating doesn't impact on anyone else.
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#72 Posted : Thursday, October 18, 2018 7:20:19 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Swooshiain Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: DnB mclovin Go to Quoted Post


Not to mention the 1,000's of people running round with 2 +stars after abusing a certain glitch...


And right there is one of the effects the glitch users have had on other people. I am now somewhere around level 2*30, and have done it solely through lots of legitimate play. However, there will be those who see that level and will assume I used the glitch.

Something to bear in mind next time a cheater claims that their cheating doesn't impact on anyone else.


I'm level 390 *4 and have not been called a cheater yet, so you have nothing to worry about.
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#73 Posted : Thursday, October 18, 2018 7:24:41 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Swooshiain Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: DnB mclovin Go to Quoted Post


Not to mention the 1,000's of people running round with 2 +stars after abusing a certain glitch...


And right there is one of the effects the glitch users have had on other people. I am now somewhere around level 2*30, and have done it solely through lots of legitimate play. However, there will be those who see that level and will assume I used the glitch.

Something to bear in mind next time a cheater claims that their cheating doesn't impact on anyone else.


I'm level 390 *4 and have not been called a cheater yet, so you have nothing to worry about.


The blanket statement Swoosh quoted essentially called anyone with 2 or more stars a cheater.
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1) Have you tried turning it off and on again?
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3) https://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-live-status < Check here for service issues.
4) If all else fails open a service ticket and/or forum post.

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#74 Posted : Thursday, October 18, 2018 7:33:40 AM(UTC)
I wish we could also get this. I have a lot of cars and need to get rid of them but want to somehow make money from them.
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#75 Posted : Thursday, October 18, 2018 11:16:27 AM(UTC)
I don't care about the in game economy or advantage of non Ultimate users being able to buy from Auctions.

I do not like having tons of vehicles I don't like & will never use BUT CAN'T sell them...

We earned them, so we should be granted to do whatever we want with them (upgrade & use, or sell off, etc)
I Love my X... Xbox One X that is :-P
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