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Rank: C-Class Racing License
#76 Posted : Friday, October 19, 2018 6:33:43 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: IceMan PJN Go to Quoted Post
I just did some more observations in a race I repeated last night (trying to get to road racing level 20). I ran the same race a handful of times with all identical settings, the same car with the same setup, and even the same Drivatars. The time of day and weather were identical as they were set in Blueprint. In each race their fastest lap times varied by several seconds from race to race, despite nothing changing except my own pace. If my fastest lap was 1:27, theirs was 1:27. If I ran a bit faster in another and ran a 1:22, they ran 1:22 with no difficulty changes or anything. It's not their pace being limited by being held up behind me because in every instance they were always several seconds behind, with second place always being over ten seconds back, so I wasn't hindering their speed to cause their pace to be limited by mine. On three-lap runs, during the race results I looked at my fastest lap versus theirs. For a few seconds I got to see their fastest lap as of lap two, before they crossed the finish and their lap three times were logged. After lap two their fastest laps were 1:30.XXX, and then after lap three it jumped to 1.25.XXX if I was running 1:25. Their third lap was five seconds faster for all eleven Drivatars because I pulled away earlier in the race. Again, keep in mind that this is with every single element identical except for my own pacing, including weather, settings, cars, and Drivatars. I go faster, they go faster. I go slower, they go slower. Again, rubberbanding clearly confirmed.


Video evidence?
Rank: Racing Permit
#77 Posted : Friday, October 19, 2018 7:27:00 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: IceMan PJN Go to Quoted Post
I just did some more observations in a race I repeated last night (trying to get to road racing level 20). I ran the same race a handful of times with all identical settings, the same car with the same setup, and even the same Drivatars. The time of day and weather were identical as they were set in Blueprint. In each race their fastest lap times varied by several seconds from race to race, despite nothing changing except my own pace. If my fastest lap was 1:27, theirs was 1:27. If I ran a bit faster in another and ran a 1:22, they ran 1:22 with no difficulty changes or anything. It's not their pace being limited by being held up behind me because in every instance they were always several seconds behind, with second place always being over ten seconds back, so I wasn't hindering their speed to cause their pace to be limited by mine. On three-lap runs, during the race results I looked at my fastest lap versus theirs. For a few seconds I got to see their fastest lap as of lap two, before they crossed the finish and their lap three times were logged. After lap two their fastest laps were 1:30.XXX, and then after lap three it jumped to 1.25.XXX if I was running 1:25. Their third lap was five seconds faster for all eleven Drivatars because I pulled away earlier in the race. Again, keep in mind that this is with every single element identical except for my own pacing, including weather, settings, cars, and Drivatars. I go faster, they go faster. I go slower, they go slower. Again, rubberbanding clearly confirmed.


Video evidence?


No need, as this is sensible to it. And I can confirm this, as I've done the same test, with an offroad race with everything the same, bar my pace.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#78 Posted : Friday, October 19, 2018 7:49:09 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EspritDesir3 Go to Quoted Post


No need, as this is sensible to it. And I can confirm this, as I've done the same test, with an offroad race with everything the same, bar my pace.


Evidence required
Rank: Racing Permit
#79 Posted : Saturday, October 20, 2018 7:45:15 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EspritDesir3 Go to Quoted Post


No need, as this is sensible to it. And I can confirm this, as I've done the same test, with an offroad race with everything the same, bar my pace.


Evidence required


When you are saying there is none, and yet your experiments, which are similar in design, say there are, the evidence is already there that there is rubberbanding. If you also would take into account that almost every racing game, has in one way or another, used rubber banding, then you would understand why no evidence is currently required, as all the evidence someone needs is just a little research to prove it exists.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
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#80 Posted : Saturday, October 20, 2018 8:04:44 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EspritDesir3 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EspritDesir3 Go to Quoted Post


No need, as this is sensible to it. And I can confirm this, as I've done the same test, with an offroad race with everything the same, bar my pace.


Evidence required


When you are saying there is none, and yet your experiments, which are similar in design, say there are, the evidence is already there that there is rubberbanding. If you also would take into account that almost every racing game, has in one way or another, used rubber banding, then you would understand why no evidence is currently required, as all the evidence someone needs is just a little research to prove it exists.


Just block him. He's a troll who fails to provide proper evidence of his own, then grieves others with his blabbering.

It's no secret that in the Forza franchise the AI is adaptive and in the Horizon branch it's a tad more adaptive. :)

In Motorsport: You race a car, the AI clocks a certain lap time, then you race another car with inferior potential and the AI becomes slower to give you a chance of winning.

In Horizon: Thinly-veiled rubberbanding done by various methods, such as drafting boosts, teleporting (I've seen this live) and impossible feats, as well as adaptive performance.

To Playground's credit, at least they made the AI get penalized for cutting the track, which is unlike teleporting. When the latter happens, the car maintains its speed, which is the opposite of a penalty for corner-cutting, which is handled in the same was as if a player had done it.
May the forced induction be with you.

Alice >>>>>>>>>> Keira
Rank: Racing Permit
#81 Posted : Saturday, October 20, 2018 8:35:17 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EspritDesir3 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EspritDesir3 Go to Quoted Post


No need, as this is sensible to it. And I can confirm this, as I've done the same test, with an offroad race with everything the same, bar my pace.


Evidence required


When you are saying there is none, and yet your experiments, which are similar in design, say there are, the evidence is already there that there is rubberbanding. If you also would take into account that almost every racing game, has in one way or another, used rubber banding, then you would understand why no evidence is currently required, as all the evidence someone needs is just a little research to prove it exists.


FMS 5-6-7, Project Cars 1+2, Assetto Corsa, Tabletop Racing, Gravel, Flatout UC, Dirt 4, Micro Machines, NASCAR Heat 2+3, F1 2015-2017 (I can't comment on 2018), MBR, Moto GP 2017, Moto Racer 4 and Ride. They're just the games off the top of my head that i've played which don't rely on rubber banding or fake AI exploits to keep things 'interesting' so i'm not quite sure how you come to this "almost every racing game" conclusion. The easiest way to determine if anything underhand is going on is by trying to lap 2nd, 3rd or 4th place during a reasonably sized custom race and from my experience of pretty much all of the above games it's more than possible to do that, thus completely dispelling this "almost every racing game" theory

Rank: Racing Permit
#82 Posted : Saturday, October 20, 2018 9:48:19 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Boris The Frog Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EspritDesir3 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EspritDesir3 Go to Quoted Post


No need, as this is sensible to it. And I can confirm this, as I've done the same test, with an offroad race with everything the same, bar my pace.


Evidence required


When you are saying there is none, and yet your experiments, which are similar in design, say there are, the evidence is already there that there is rubberbanding. If you also would take into account that almost every racing game, has in one way or another, used rubber banding, then you would understand why no evidence is currently required, as all the evidence someone needs is just a little research to prove it exists.


FMS 5-6-7, Project Cars 1+2, Assetto Corsa, Tabletop Racing, Gravel, Flatout UC, Dirt 4, Micro Machines, NASCAR Heat 2+3, F1 2015-2017 (I can't comment on 2018), MBR, Moto GP 2017, Moto Racer 4 and Ride. They're just the games off the top of my head that i've played which don't rely on rubber banding or fake AI exploits to keep things 'interesting' so i'm not quite sure how you come to this "almost every racing game" conclusion. The easiest way to determine if anything underhand is going on is by trying to lap 2nd, 3rd or 4th place during a reasonably sized custom race and from my experience of pretty much all of the above games it's more than possible to do that, thus completely dispelling this "almost every racing game" theory



FM5 had it. Project Cars has it in spades. Even real life racing sort of has it. It's called handicapping. Don't state a lie as truth. Handicapping can be called rubber banding as it artificially changes what is actually supposed to be the setup. If a game is not a true simulator, it will have it in one way or another. Whether or not it be noticeable is one thing. Whether it exists, well, most games to an extent will have it to artificially 'inflate' the game's longevity. Games get harder the more you win at them. That, in effect, is what we call rubber banding, although it's actually a dynamic game difficulty adjustment. So, when you say rubber banding does not exist, you're using a different definition of rubber banding than what I believe is being discussed.

Edited by user Saturday, October 20, 2018 9:50:34 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#83 Posted : Saturday, October 20, 2018 10:37:39 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Proctech Go to Quoted Post
I thought FH3 had bad rubberbanding in spots, yet this is somehow even worse. Like, being unable to see AI cars on one corner, and suddenly getting rammed from behind on the next. But it's especially obvious in the Cross Country races, to the point that it's the only series I haven't completed yet, and probably won't.

Between AI that brake check you and/or just smash into you, the idiotic 50ft+ jumps and questionable mid-air physics, and the fact that AI seems to take absolutely zero mechanical damage like you would, it's basically impossible to do these races with Simulation damage on. And even if you turn off damage all together, better hope you don't have to go through standing water or have a steep hill to go up, because both of those will slow you down greatly, it obviously doesn't affect the AI speed at all.

Like, at least the rubberbanding worked both ways in FH3, but in this it's completely for the AI, and even help the player much.


There’s was literally hundreds of threads and posts on the FH3 forum about unrealistic drivitar behaviour but tge devs took no notice or didn’t bother changing it as the drivitars are exactly the same in fh4. The drivitars losing no speed when driving through standing water really does my head in.
Rank: Racing Permit
#84 Posted : Sunday, October 21, 2018 5:53:21 AM(UTC)
I did a truck race on Titan last night, in a unimog. The ai drivers went off course a bit at a bend, and I never saw them again, until the last jump, 10 feet from the finish at least two trucks come screaming up like I am standing still. I ended up second, with a photo finish with the third place. :(
Only seen that blatant of rubber-banding in drag races so far.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#85 Posted : Sunday, October 21, 2018 4:08:45 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: IceMan PJN Go to Quoted Post
The rubberbanding in The Crew 2 is the most vulgar I've ever seen. :-/

Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Sounds like you guys need to turn your difficulty down. I already debunked the rubber-banding


No. No, you didn't. We've already proven rubberbanding. Nobody anywhere, not even the developers themselves, says there's no rubberbanding.


The only "rubberbanding" is when the AI slows down to catch up with you, I've tested it. They do not speed up to catch you if you're too far ahead. And if you think I am wrong, tell me a track and class and I'll test it.


There is rubber-banding. Even by catching-up, and it's actually the worse problem. Especially the highest difficulties. Their Physics and Performance is constantly adapted on the fly. They do catch up a and are on semi-rigid rails at time

Edited by user Sunday, October 21, 2018 4:09:19 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Forza Concerns: economy, gameplay mechanism,car list,PI-System,limited physics, unserious arcadish driving system, plain and empty map
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#86 Posted : Sunday, October 21, 2018 4:09:12 PM(UTC)
I've farmed the Goliath race in S1 against expert AI for an nice easy pace many, many times all four lap races each. I can casually set a ~8:45 lap time in my ford GT40 Mk II. I setup the exact same race in my Porsche 959 and hit 8:30. To me it didn't seem like definite "rubber-banding" you would see in a game like F-Zero GX's mission 7. They would catch up slightly in areas if they had a speed car on straights or a Lotus GT1 in turns, but overall they always hover around the same ~5 mile or whatever distance behind me even when I was 15 seconds faster in my 959. I can never put anymore of a lead on them where I could in FH3. Not being able to get further ahead when you are already faster is a good sign of this games rubber banding as they begin to put faster lap times down than me without ever truly catching up, but just to that precise distance behind me. If I make a mistake they'll catch up, but eventually fall back to the exact same distance in a bit. It makes it kind of boring.

They do seems to make errors sometimes now though which is interesting (seems to be only if you are relatively close to them?). I lapped an upside down jeep once too. I would like to see them get some wheelspin off the start line in a rwd muscle car for a change. Cross Country stuff in S class is unreal on expert, they usually bounce perfectly.
Rank: Driver's License
#87 Posted : Monday, October 22, 2018 4:26:39 AM(UTC)
There are notable discrepancies between races in AI difficulty. 'Unbeatable' is not a consistent setting, nor is any other AI setting. There are races where the AI's unfair cheats come into play. Most evident in cross country.

You can always expect the AI to have 4WD capabilities even when they're not 4WD - except coming off the starting line. You can always expect to slow down more in water than they do. You can always expect them to have better grip than you. Most evident on slippery surfaces.

The race 'SuperHornetA51' posted is not the type of race where you notice the AI's unfair advantages.

Sad to see elitists(?) like him/her turn this into a 'bragging thread' (hence going off-topic). Disguised as "debunking the rubberbanding AI", this was trolling in a nutshell instead 😐 Sorry to put it that bluntly, but that's the way I and others perceive it.

My 2 cents.

Thanks.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#88 Posted : Monday, October 22, 2018 5:34:31 AM(UTC)
There is clear rubberbanding in this game. I do 20 lap circuits and when I start it is clearly faster than the computer. I generally drive less aggressively in this races since I have time to pass cleanly but once I am out in front I don't brake in areas the computer brakes and I am faster out of the corners. By the time they are about 25% of the course behind me(a good 10 seconds behind) they never let up despite going even faster in some laps. When I finish all the computers have similarly as fast best lap times some of which will have faster times in the middle of the pack compared to the 2nd place finisher. It's kind of stupid.

True competitive driving is in multiplayer anyways, and I think the computer is fast enough to keep it interesting. It is much more enjoyable than the NPC driving in Gran Turismo.
Rank: Driver's Permit
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#89 Posted : Monday, October 22, 2018 7:15:38 AM(UTC)
From my experience the AI rubber bands when it is losing badly. If it is wining it will drive off into the distance at turbo speed with zero chance of catching them. Rubber banding usually means keeping the AI cars close to you if your ahead, and preventing the AI from gaining too much ground if it is ahead. Forza doesn't do that, Forza only does the first part.

The main issue as I see it is its blatant cheating, and that it doesn't know when to stop cheating when it is ahead. The AI in general cheats like mad in the highest two levels. They accelerate faster, they have top speeds that are impossible for the car they are driving, they bring cars that are utterly inferior and should not stand a chance at all that completely out perform your car. They drive like they are on rails in corners, and they are generally perfect on most of the courses. They also can ignore missed checkpoints, and objects like water or breakable terrain does not affect them in the slightest. Plus they are very aggressive, I've had the AI side swipe me in straights for no reason and try to force me off the road (and this is completely off the driving line) and they will happily slam into your rear in corners.

Worst of all though is they are extremely inconsistent between different tracks and different car classes. In some races and classes (car class or rating) they are utterly unbeatable, and in others they can barely drive the course or are following bad racing lines. Off Road Racing is a good example for me, as my vehicle gets thrown around due to the shape of the terrain and FH4's wonky physics. The AI generally doesn't have that problem, they always land straight, they rarely ever get their cars jolted sideways due to wonky physics. They don't tend to slide in corners. It is mostly like they are on their own rail track. All of that makes it extremely difficult for me to win. Yet in road races I can usually beat them quite badly (depending on which track).

Anyways this image is a good example of them rubber banding to try to keep up in a Pro race.

In this one the AI lost, and I managed to lap 4 of the back cars in the last few laps. Some how that S1 Ford Mustang managed to get a lap time over 10 seconds faster than X MC12 FE, one of the best cars in the game, on a track that was full of a lot of fast corners and slow corners. If the AI hadn't been rubber banding, I would have easily lapped all of them, as there were some major errors in the driving line for that race that caused the AI to over brake for no reason.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#90 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2018 9:53:36 AM(UTC)
I was making some more apples-to-apples comparisons. I've used the Holyrood Park Circuit again, largely because I've already made several comparisons there but also because it's a relatively basic circuit so it encourages greater consistency. I did a race on average difficulty and had the AI post a fastest lap of 1:25.XXX, and mine was 1:25.6XX. I then ran again with everything identical except I bumped the AI difficulty up to expert. My fastest lap was slightly slower at 1:26.3XX. Guess what? The AI, despite being turned up a couple levels from the previous run, only ran 1:26s and 1:27s despite everything else being identical. They were slightly slower even though the difficulty setting was two notches higher, because their times rubberbanded to mine.

Once again, rubberbanding confirmed.

Of course, as always, people don't need to compare their lap data versus mine or whatever to validate it. People can replicate the same tests for themselves under their own circumstances and see the results for themselves. Run whatever car class, PI, or conditions you like. The important thing is watching their times conform to yours whether you're a bit faster or slower and even on different AI settings.
Still I Rise
Rank: Racing Permit
#91 Posted : Friday, November 2, 2018 11:55:43 PM(UTC)
Now I love this game, except for one thing, I like to do longer races like the titan etc, and if you do longer races you encounter this games absurd rubberbanding.

I play on expert because I like a challenge but also like to win and its a nice balance. So I spend tge first half of the rave fighting ly way to the front and then look to consolidate, i might eek out a few seconds lead. At about 3/4 distance the cars behind suddenly start catching up, and if a go a little wide on a corner one might get his nose in front, if that happens, he’s gone within a 30 seconds he’s opened up a healthy lead and is just driving away.

I’ve even raced on the motorway where the car I am in has the fastest top speed and even when running a consitent race fibd that not only do the cars catch me up but I end setting the slowest lap time whether I win or not

Please Playground sort out this rubber banding!! Make it fair!!
Gamertag - Dogconker

Search for my designs on Forza 7

Rank: Racing Permit
#92 Posted : Saturday, November 3, 2018 12:36:42 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Rubber-banding implies that they slow down to let you catch up, then when you start getting ahead they speed up.

I haven't had that in this case, sure they were super fast in some instances, but their speed remained consistent.


No, it’s rubberbanding in the opposite sense, if you get in front and start to pull away they will speed up and catch you back up but if they get in front they don’t slow down and they're gone, assomeone said earlier off road races are near impossible unless you can spend the whole race fending them off.

I just think it should be if the opponents car can do 140mph then that’s all it should do, I’ve been passed by cars which are standard where I am far in excess of the top speed of the car that overtakes me.

Edited by user Saturday, November 3, 2018 9:16:05 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Gamertag - Dogconker

Search for my designs on Forza 7

Rank: Racing Permit
#93 Posted : Saturday, November 3, 2018 12:53:27 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: nemesis464 Go to Quoted Post
Oh look, another thread highlighting the obvious rubberbanding, and another thread where SuperHornet is spouting BS. Not sure if the guy is a shill or whatever, but it's hilarious that he thinks somehow RB'ing isn't in the game despite it being in the series for years, and masses of people reporting the opposite.

Rubberbanding doesn't happen every race from what I can see. Posting a video of a race where the AI's performance doesn't change is not proof that is doesn't exist. I'll try and record some videos in the next few days of very clear instances where my lap times don't change, but the AI's noticeably do.

And in point-to-point races where I keep extending my lead from around 50% of the race to around 75-80% of the race, where the AI magically catch up despite me driving on point as I have the whole race.


I did a 5 lap race on the motorway, by 2nd lap I had got to front and was opening up a gap, third lap I gad the same gap betwedn me amd 2nd about 5-6seconds, 4th lap I had eeked out my lead to perhaps 10 seconds, cars were not visible behind me now. Finished 3rd!! All my lsp times bar the 1st were within a second or do of each other yet on the last lap I was not only caught but passed and nothing I had left could get me to catch up, I reckon by end of lap they were about 5 seconds ahead.

But there’s no rubberbanding apparently??

Gamertag - Dogconker

Search for my designs on Forza 7

Rank: R-Class Racing License
#94 Posted : Sunday, December 8, 2019 12:57:02 PM(UTC)
It could be my imagination, but the Ai seemed more realistic today on the Goliath. On Unbeatable they were trying to overtake me when they usually hang out behind me. Sometimes an Ai will start to pass you, and then drop back for no reason, but they weren't doing that, they were actually fighting to win in a realistic way. I had to do the Goliath full throttle just to stay ahead of them... no mistakes allowed.

Anybody else think that the AI have improved?
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