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Rank: R-Class Racing License
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#51 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 12:06:51 PM(UTC)
Sounds like SuperHornet needs to GIT GUD at video making... "Proof video" without showing exact settings you run at nor how much money you earn is proof of nothing.

And yes, you need both, because you can get 100% bonus and beyond without racing on Unbeatable. :)

Anyway, since splicing is a thing, he just lost all credence he might have had when he first omitted the data.

Edited by user Monday, October 15, 2018 12:08:53 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

May the forced induction be with you.

Alice >>>>>>>>>> Keira
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#52 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 12:10:12 PM(UTC)
What i have notice that when you are fast enough ai cant rubberband anymore, i have done goliath race over and over again with anything goes and when driving s2 class it dont matter do i drive 8.20 or 8.50 lap times i win races all the time in 9 second and even difficulty settings dont matter highly skifull ai drives as fast than unbeatable ai. But when drive car that i can drive all the time under 8.10 laps ai cant drive faster that 8.14 and i win those races super easily but even then both highly skilfull and unbeatable ai drive both same laps times.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#53 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 7:21:42 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Guthwulf06 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
[quote=Guthwulf06;987025]What course, car, and class did this occur in so I can replicate it? Because everyone seems to be screaming "rubberbanding" without proof of rubberbanding

Nearly every car i tried (S1 or higher) and nearly every road racing track. Either (scenario 1:) difficulty to low and winning is a guarantee or (scenario 2:) diffculty to high and rubber banding with magical first two drivatars. The longer the track, the more obvious it becomes. Last try was Holyrood Park Circuit (20 rounds with Lambo Centenario in S2 class). Managed to early ram my way into first place and get away from the main pack. Only the drivatar behind my (after initially also falling behind) suddenly going much faster during the last rounds closing the gap to me and driving my nearly into the grass on one of the last curves. This time i had luck and managed to barely stay before him finishing first. Still annoying as hell...

And now to your "prove": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j89RZTGE7SQ

I replicated your "prove" race with my limited abilities... Purchased a Bac Mono, Greendale Circuit, Clear weather, Autumn, Unbeatable Drivatar... Sure... your lap time of 0:50 is fine (i guess you're driving with manual gear shifting), but the lap time of your drivatars is really bad. Only your "best" drivatar gets a 0:53:XX laptime. No way this is unbeatable difficulty. In other words: You're driving in scenario 1 (to low difficulty, racing is way to easy, rubberbanding doesn't come into play). Because I'm driving with automatic gear shifting (and maybe i'm bad) I only reach 0:52-0:53 laptimes. I finish second because of rubber banding and scenario 2. So my best laptimes are way slower than your's and still, even my worst drivatar has better laptimes than your fastest drivatar. So clearly, you don't play on unbeatable and you prove exactly nothing.

And now let me show you the rubber banding (scenario 2: higher difficulty, magical first two drivatars):

3rd lap: I manage to get to 2nd place without problems, but first place already has run away. If this race would be default length (3 laps) i would have become 2nd place.



5th lap: the pack behind me slowly but constantly falls more and more back. Only the drivatar in 3rd place right behind me "magically" keeps up with me. And the first drivatar magically stays before me, without any chance to catch up. He only gets a bit slower in the last lap, but not enough to reach him.



final results: places 4-12 have their best laptimes within a very small margin 00:53:073 - 00:53:540 (not even half a second) and a total time difference of only 7 seconds (for 4th to 12th place, means: < 1 sec per place). 1st place to 4th place has over 10 seconds difference in total time (means: > 3 sec per place) and a best lap difference over 1 second to the 4th place. Places 4-12 has no impactful rubber banding. But 1st place (directly before player) and 3rd place (directly behind player) "magically" adjust their laptimes according to player speed. => That is rubberbanding.



So in the end, the others here were right... you're just trolling... Too bad...



Okay, lemme record another one, where I show in the menu that they are on unbeatable.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#54 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 7:30:36 PM(UTC)
https://youtu.be/oKKwkt5Svxw Here ya go, the AI didn't go any faster, even though I did. Enjoy


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xHt6uYuWSw (bonus: 8 lap anything goes S1 race, where the AI can choose even FASTER cars)

Edited by user Monday, October 15, 2018 7:52:01 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: R-Class Racing License
#55 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 7:52:55 PM(UTC)
I'm not sure rubber banding is the right word to describe the AI, but something is definitely strange about them. I did the Marathon street race in my X999 Koenigsegg Agera RS and somehow got paired with a bunch of high S2 Ford Focus RS', Audi TTS' and Mustang GTs.

This AI was unbelievably quick, matching my 240+ MPH on several straights. Because of their bullet-like speed, they couldn't take corners to save their life, resulting in the entire pack flying off cliffs, hills, etc. This only happened when I could see them, after their crashes they would catch up quickly. Essentially, if I couldn't see them, they'd keep their insane speeds but wouldn't crash. I dunno what to make of it to be honest. 🤔

🇨🇦
Rank: Racing Legend
#56 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 8:19:20 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: KTVDS Go to Quoted Post
I'm not sure rubber banding is the right word to describe the AI, but something is definitely strange about them. I did the Marathon street race in my X999 Koenigsegg Agera RS and somehow got paired with a bunch of high S2 Ford Focus RS', Audi TTS' and Mustang GTs.

This AI was unbelievably quick, matching my 240+ MPH on several straights. Because of their bullet-like speed, they couldn't take corners to save their life, resulting in the entire pack flying off cliffs, hills, etc. This only happened when I could see them, after their crashes they would catch up quickly. Essentially, if I couldn't see them, they'd keep their insane speeds but wouldn't crash. I dunno what to make of it to be honest. 🤔


Super Hornet has given a possible explanation to that. Unless we are devs we can not be sure.

The explanation was that when they are close to you physics applies to them. When they are not close to you it does not.

This matches other racing games I have played where qualifying times set by AI do not match what I can see them doing. Part of this is how the game saves resources - when cars are out of sight or somewhat out of site they are not fully rendered or fully applying the physics model which is to save computing power.

If we get far enough ahead the AI will catch up but then the full physics engine applies and they struggle again.
I blame the ants.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#57 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 8:31:38 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SatNiteEduardo Go to Quoted Post


Super Hornet has given a possible explanation to that. Unless we are devs we can not be sure.

The explanation was that when they are close to you physics applies to them. When they are not close to you it does not.

This matches other racing games I have played where qualifying times set by AI do not match what I can see them doing. Part of this is how the game saves resources - when cars are out of sight or somewhat out of site they are not fully rendered or fully applying the physics model which is to save computing power.

If we get far enough ahead the AI will catch up but then the full physics engine applies and they struggle again.


The reason why I say stuff like that is because in lap races they never seem to have the same effects, it's usually on long point-to-point races, as it's possible for the AI to actually escape the physics range of the player. Definitely better than claiming "rubberbanding"
Rank: Racing Legend
#58 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 8:33:34 PM(UTC)
On most races the rubber band is definitely breakable.
I blame the ants.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#59 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 9:33:17 PM(UTC)
I'm now starting to believe that the AI is definitely different and any rubberbanding is not as intense as past games. On the weekend I realized I had made a BIG mistake in settings since my first post on this thread. I forgot to set the dead zones to my usual settings in the Advanced Controls. As soon as I did that I began beating the faster drivatars again. In fact, I'm now beating Expert in every race, Pro a lot of the time and Unbeatable sometimes.

In previous titles, AI would give up if you got too far in front. If AI was close it wouldn't have to rubber band but there was a middle ground where it would. So I've been doing some racing, then watching the replays. Rather than the massive HP spikes, we'd see in previous games to catch up it seems the AI is just more consistent and subtle. It's definitely far harder to pass them on corners so I don't think they need the big HP boosts to catch up.

What I've noticed now is the AI is better at jumping on you if you execute a bad turn and will try to pass you on a corner which I don't recall it doing as effectively in previous games. I've noticed now that to pass AI and catch it I have to brake more effectively and definitely run a tighter more accurate line on the curves.

I'm finding I can do far better against AI on the circuits with more curves and braking than the races with long runs.

From playing around, I think picking the right car and tune is even more critical to success with the higher levels of difficulty.

In FH3 I actually didn't think the rubber banding was that bad until I ran a race with the slowest car in the game. I can't remember the car, but for the fun of it, I did absolutely no mods or tuning, then raced it. It was a Sprint race and because I was better on the curves I was WAY ahead of the AI until the last long straight, then out of the blue an AI car was a rocket and caught and nearly passed me were it not for my blocking it. I was shocked at how bad the rubber banding was. I think I'll try the same in this game.
The gamer tag is accurate. It's how I've made a living for about 30 years, however I wish was racing cars instead. Sigh
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#60 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 10:04:52 PM(UTC)
OK, I'm now wondering if there is any rubber banding. SuperHornetA51 might be right.

I just did the Derwent Lakeside Sprint in a Peel P50, Class 100 with no tuning. It was in Expert mode and from what I saw there was no rubber banding like I experienced in the past.

At about 30% I caught and passed the leader by patiently keeping a tighter line on the curves and avoiding the cars in front of me. After that, I was VERY smooth and slowly pulled away. By 70% I had about a 3.5-second lead. I was a little sloppy on one of only two curves where I had to ease off the throttle and I could have picked a better line. Unlike FH3, there was no sudden burst of power from a car behind me. In fact, the other cars were bundled together with only 1/10's between positions 2 to 5. Positions 6 to 12 were 1/2 a second and gradually more apart.

PS In Forza 5, the ONLY time I got into the top 50 in a Rivals event was in a stock BMW Isetta. I'm a very smooth driver, so my lack of skill compared to the fastest drivers isn't as pronounced.

Edited by user Monday, October 15, 2018 10:08:22 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

The gamer tag is accurate. It's how I've made a living for about 30 years, however I wish was racing cars instead. Sigh
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#61 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 10:27:26 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: WritesCode4Food Go to Quoted Post
OK, I'm now wondering if there is any rubber banding. SuperHornetA51 might be right.

I just did the Derwent Lakeside Sprint in a Peel P50, Class 100 with no tuning. It was in Expert mode and from what I saw there was no rubber banding like I experienced in the past.

At about 30% I caught and passed the leader by patiently keeping a tighter line on the curves and avoiding the cars in front of me. After that, I was VERY smooth and slowly pulled away. By 70% I had about a 3.5-second lead. I was a little sloppy on one of only two curves where I had to ease off the throttle and I could have picked a better line. Unlike FH3, there was no sudden burst of power from a car behind me. In fact, the other cars were bundled together with only 1/10's between positions 2 to 5. Positions 6 to 12 were 1/2 a second and gradually more apart.

PS In Forza 5, the ONLY time I got into the top 50 in a Rivals event was in a stock BMW Isetta. I'm a very smooth driver, so my lack of skill compared to the fastest drivers isn't as pronounced.


Did the race again in Pro Mode. My overall time was actually 1/2 second slower and I still won easily with no evidence of a sudden burst from the AI. I didn't pass for the lead until about 65% on the first meaningful turn where I had to slow the car. The 2nd curve where I had to slow I was OK and lost some time but kept the lead. Of the last 20% of the race, they did seem to be catching up but it was so slight it didn't matter and I won with a slower time than on Expert mode.
The gamer tag is accurate. It's how I've made a living for about 30 years, however I wish was racing cars instead. Sigh
Rank: Driver's License
#62 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 10:50:40 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: IceMan PJN Go to Quoted Post
The rubberbanding in The Crew 2 is the most vulgar I've ever seen. :-/

Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Sounds like you guys need to turn your difficulty down. I already debunked the rubber-banding


No. No, you didn't. We've already proven rubberbanding. Nobody anywhere, not even the developers themselves, says there's no rubberbanding.


The only "rubberbanding" is when the AI slows down to catch up with you, I've tested it. They do not speed up to catch you if you're too far ahead. And if you think I am wrong, tell me a track and class and I'll test it.


I tested it myself on the Reliant Supervan. I tuned mine to max with new engine and the training wheels, while my opponents were several divisions below me. I chose Reliant because the opponents are EXTREMELY disadvantaged and always flip. They actually started lapping faster than me on the laps where they don't flip. This is like B class vs S1

Rank: Driver's License
#63 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2018 3:17:07 AM(UTC)
My favourite experience of it so far and I didn't take a screenshot because I am a moron was doing the Goliath in an agera rs X class and being overtaken at banburugh castle by a caterham Fe with S1 upgrades.

Also doing the marathon to unlock the hoon Porsche and watched an e class Merc do the 90° corner leaving the festival at 170+ and with zero wheelspin or drift.

It's just absurd. I've had to turn the difficulty down once and that was during the terrible B class buggy championship at launch. Watching class 7s tear past you at 200 going up a hill is maddening.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
 2 users liked this post.
#64 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2018 3:29:11 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SprungBoss9964 Go to Quoted Post
What i have notice that when you are fast enough ai cant rubberband anymore, i have done goliath race over and over again with anything goes and when driving s2 class it dont matter do i drive 8.20 or 8.50 lap times i win races all the time in 9 second and even difficulty settings dont matter highly skifull ai drives as fast than unbeatable ai. But when drive car that i can drive all the time under 8.10 laps ai cant drive faster that 8.14 and i win those races super easily but even then both highly skilfull and unbeatable ai drive both same laps times.


I experience something else on "unbeatable". Did 3 laps of Goliath in an S2 998 Elise GT1 and "Anything goes". Constant lap time of 8.25. The AI stayed right at the edge of the mini-map when looking back. Lap time of the AI: 8.23 -8.25.
Repeated the same race but this time in the insanely OP 1995 GTR LM FE. Again S2 998. Constant lap time of 7.55. The AI stayed right at the edge of the mini-map. AI lapt time: 7.52-7.55.
In both cases the AI ran Ford Focus, Audi TT-S and Ford Mustang.

I would call this "rubberbanding". Not exactly how other games do it but the AI adjusts its speed once they're right at the edge of the mini-map. In a way that a major mistake will always cost you positions. They also lose any car specific traits (like low top speed, bad handling) or any connection to the road. There are some turns on Goliath the AI simply can't take but once they merged into "the Blob" they can stick with you.

Edited by user Tuesday, October 16, 2018 3:33:27 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#65 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2018 3:39:05 AM(UTC)
Oh look, another thread highlighting the obvious rubberbanding, and another thread where SuperHornet is spouting BS. Not sure if the guy is a shill or whatever, but it's hilarious that he thinks somehow RB'ing isn't in the game despite it being in the series for years, and masses of people reporting the opposite.

Rubberbanding doesn't happen every race from what I can see. Posting a video of a race where the AI's performance doesn't change is not proof that is doesn't exist. I'll try and record some videos in the next few days of very clear instances where my lap times don't change, but the AI's noticeably do.

And in point-to-point races where I keep extending my lead from around 50% of the race to around 75-80% of the race, where the AI magically catch up despite me driving on point as I have the whole race.

Edited by user Tuesday, October 16, 2018 3:40:23 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#66 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2018 4:37:53 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Rayne SE Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SprungBoss9964 Go to Quoted Post
What i have notice that when you are fast enough ai cant rubberband anymore, i have done goliath race over and over again with anything goes and when driving s2 class it dont matter do i drive 8.20 or 8.50 lap times i win races all the time in 9 second and even difficulty settings dont matter highly skifull ai drives as fast than unbeatable ai. But when drive car that i can drive all the time under 8.10 laps ai cant drive faster that 8.14 and i win those races super easily but even then both highly skilfull and unbeatable ai drive both same laps times.


I experience something else on "unbeatable". Did 3 laps of Goliath in an S2 998 Elise GT1 and "Anything goes". Constant lap time of 8.25. The AI stayed right at the edge of the mini-map when looking back. Lap time of the AI: 8.23 -8.25.
Repeated the same race but this time in the insanely OP 1995 GTR LM FE. Again S2 998. Constant lap time of 7.55. The AI stayed right at the edge of the mini-map. AI lapt time: 7.52-7.55.
In both cases the AI ran Ford Focus, Audi TT-S and Ford Mustang.

I would call this "rubberbanding". Not exactly how other games do it but the AI adjusts its speed once they're right at the edge of the mini-map. In a way that a major mistake will always cost you positions. They also lose any car specific traits (like low top speed, bad handling) or any connection to the road. There are some turns on Goliath the AI simply can't take but once they merged into "the Blob" they can stick with you.


This is interesting, i use tvr sagaris fe on myself and i just won 3 lap race by 45 seconds when racing against focus etc my best lap 7.55 and ai best lap 8.12 but when i race against other tvr's ai was able to drive under 8 minute lap times and i won that race with 9 second marginal. And yeah that is rubberbanding, not nfs kinda rubberbanding but it's still rubberbanding.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#67 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2018 6:53:17 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: nemesis464 Go to Quoted Post

Rubberbanding doesn't happen every race from what I can see. Posting a video of a race where the AI's performance doesn't change is not proof that is doesn't exist. I'll try and record some videos in the next few days of very clear instances where my lap times don't change, but the AI's noticeably do.


I'll ask you then, tell me a scenario at which I can see this "rubberbanding" so I can be proven wrong? I have actually provided multiple videos showing that AI performance DOES CHANGE. But it's only when I just didn't bother playing for 30 seconds.
Rank: Racing Permit
#68 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2018 9:02:03 AM(UTC)
I have noticed something with the rubberbanding issue. It seems to be, at least with my builds, car dependent. If a car is built in a way that power trumps handling, then it is a challenge to keep up with the drivatars, yet if I build a car in a way that makes it handling biased, the drivatars are a bit easier to challenge. Seems like they go for power over handling tunes when it comes to opponents, so keep that in mind. I've seen rubber banding, but only when I use power builds or cars in high enough classes where it can be an issue (S1 or S2).
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#69 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2018 9:21:52 AM(UTC)
I did 3 laps of Goliath in a 998 Vulcan, and a Siesto Elemento is my rear view most of the race. I made one mistake on lap 2 out in the highlands and bailed big, but I had already caught up and passed the Siesto Elemento before the end of Edinburgh. They stayed in their usual spot the rest of the match. Considering how consistently I was driving outside of the one crash, this kind of activity just screams rubber-banding. It does seem mild though, it's just really noticeable on long races like Goliath.

I don't mind it so much though. I'm good enough to handle it when it works against me, and I'd rather have the AI cheating against me then have no challenge at all. I also haven't noticed much cheating by the AI outside of unbeatable. Besides it does seem to help the player more than harm them, at least in my experience.

I do wish I could turn it off though. All of the way the AI cheats, and then allow them to have higher tuned cars. Not the top of my priority list though. That would be the way the AI ignores physics once outside your load sphere. That is by far the biggest issue with AI right now, as it makes Cross Country impossible at higher difficulty levels.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#70 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2018 9:48:19 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EspritDesir3 Go to Quoted Post
I have noticed something with the rubberbanding issue. It seems to be, at least with my builds, car dependent. If a car is built in a way that power trumps handling, then it is a challenge to keep up with the drivatars, yet if I build a car in a way that makes it handling biased, the drivatars are a bit easier to challenge. Seems like they go for power over handling tunes when it comes to opponents, so keep that in mind. I've seen rubber banding, but only when I use power builds or cars in high enough classes where it can be an issue (S1 or S2).


I've noticed the same thing. The AI has more HP but not the big spikes in HP like in FH3. The AI is also better at cornering so in order to regain that advantage, you need to improve handling and it's then vital to carry enough speed to beat them on straightaways. I've been using aero to compensate for different tracks. Minimum aero for less curves and maximum aero for lots of curves.

In the Peel P50 race I discussed that is how I passed them. I carried more speed through the corner with a better line. Also, I had to run with no assists other than the breaking line. It was vital that I shifted faster from the standing start to pass a few cars early and stay close to the leaders.
The gamer tag is accurate. It's how I've made a living for about 30 years, however I wish was racing cars instead. Sigh
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#71 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2018 3:55:03 PM(UTC)
no rubberbanding on unbeatble, when you are ahead on easier diffs they will lap unbeatable speeds to try and stay within a certin distance/time. So there is no rubberbanding if you are on unbeatable.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#72 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:50:43 PM(UTC)
I've proposed an experiment to prove/disprove rubberbanding on this thread:
https://forums.forzamoto...rove-Rubber-Banding.aspx
The gamer tag is accurate. It's how I've made a living for about 30 years, however I wish was racing cars instead. Sigh
Rank: Racing Permit
#73 Posted : Friday, October 19, 2018 9:05:48 AM(UTC)
I think you can easily notice it on Goliath with multiple laps.
Was driving S2-class with the Aston Martin Vulcan FE.

As long as you aren't first, the opponents are happy with throwing themselves into the wild, against houses and trees. Let's just ignore the fact that they can drive offroad with no issues despite going RWD.
But once you are leading, they will absolutely stay together in one tight group and never fall behind. So once you make a huge mistake like flying off the road, they are on you immediately. And then they forget how to drive again when you lose the lead.
Oh, and the sole S1-class-opponent had a better lap time than me somehow.

It's so obvious, it's not even funny anymore.
At least in FH3's Goliath, they would nicely spread out all over the track.

Edited by user Friday, October 19, 2018 12:13:01 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
#74 Posted : Friday, October 19, 2018 10:09:17 AM(UTC)
I've not noticed any rubber banding in I have tested that the AI will slow down for you but if you are in the lead they have a set time to finish the race. Run the same race over and over with different cars and when and you'll notice that the AI finishes the same exact time depending on what difficulty setting your on
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#75 Posted : Friday, October 19, 2018 6:00:06 PM(UTC)
I just did some more observations in a race I repeated last night (trying to get to road racing level 20). I ran the same race a handful of times with all identical settings, the same car with the same setup, and even the same Drivatars. The time of day and weather were identical as they were set in Blueprint. In each race their fastest lap times varied by several seconds from race to race, despite nothing changing except my own pace. If my fastest lap was 1:27, theirs was 1:27. If I ran a bit faster in another and ran a 1:22, they ran 1:22 with no difficulty changes or anything. It's not their pace being limited by being held up behind me because in every instance they were always several seconds behind, with second place always being over ten seconds back, so I wasn't hindering their speed to cause their pace to be limited by mine. On three-lap runs, during the race results I looked at my fastest lap versus theirs. For a few seconds I got to see their fastest lap as of lap two, before they crossed the finish and their lap three times were logged. After lap two their fastest laps were 1:30.XXX, and then after lap three it jumped to 1.25.XXX if I was running 1:25. Their third lap was five seconds faster for all eleven Drivatars because I pulled away earlier in the race. Again, keep in mind that this is with every single element identical except for my own pacing, including weather, settings, cars, and Drivatars. I go faster, they go faster. I go slower, they go slower. Again, rubberbanding clearly confirmed.

Edited by user Friday, October 19, 2018 6:00:51 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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